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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
 Posted - 06 May 2015 : 04:53:54
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The words for the win: Cloak and Dagger
One of the finest books ever put out for the Forgotten Realms. This is a win for WotC! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2015 : 04:59:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The words for the win: Cloak and Dagger
One of the finest books ever put out for the Forgotten Realms. This is a win for WotC!
Agreed! It's one of my favorite FR products -- it's in my top 5, certainly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2015 : 06:22:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
The words for the win: Cloak and Dagger
One of the finest books ever put out for the Forgotten Realms. This is a win for WotC!
No argument here.
It's definitely a contender for magnus opus of the 2nd edition Realms. That was a good month; this book came out and Gladiator was in the theaters. |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2015 : 16:18:57
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| Hey, look on the bright side. At least it's not someone like Richard Knaak. ;P |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2015 : 16:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Hey, look on the bright side. At least it's not someone like Richard Knaak. ;P
I'm not familiar with any game material that he's done. I've read more than a few of his books, and while they weren't something that knocked my socks off, I recall enjoying them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2015 : 17:35:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sno4wy
Hey, look on the bright side. At least it's not someone like Richard Knaak. ;P
I'm not familiar with any game material that he's done. I've read more than a few of his books, and while they weren't something that knocked my socks off, I recall enjoying them.
There are certainly many examples of worse writing than Knaak's works, but it's his designs for official game characters that make me cringe. One example that particularly hurts my brain was Rhonin, who, rather than listing what he was, would be easier to list the things that he was not. It took nothing less than singlehandedly confining an artifact that embodied the power of one of the five mightiest races in the world for many millenia from exploding and destroying at least the planet to take him out. He was Gary Stu to the max with the personality of a cardboard tube. Many of Rhonin's creations are like that. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2015 : 18:10:58
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I'm happy they hired someone.
I really like SKR. From what little I know, I don't know that his strength is coordinating work on the FR. I also am somewhat concerned if he is expected to be a "one man show" for design of new products. So either or both roles doesn't bespeak success in my mind.
Personally, I would prefer Steven Schend be playing that role, coordinating and leveraging all the other great developers and writers. But that's just a pipe dream.
I think this is a good thing, but not enough, and maybe not the perfect person but better than nothing. Makes me wonder who else they reached out to first, and if they were turned down by others.
Any progress is good progress. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 00:00:29
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I'm good with SKR. I really don't get the fuss. Yeah, he's not on Ed's list, but that doesn't mean he's bad. It just means he's not a first round draft pick. Rats. I used a sports reference. Shame on me.
Anyway, I'll judge by the content. If SKR did Cloak and Dagger, then I've no reason to think the content will likely be sub-par based on who they hired. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 00:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Anyway, I'll judge by the content. If SKR did Cloak and Dagger, then I've no reason to think the content will likely be sub-par based on who they hired.
SKR also did some work late in the 2e run on reviving Greyhawk. His work on The Scarlet Brotherhood is awesome. He revived the 1st edition monk and assassin classes that make sense and fit the 2nd edition rules. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 00:33:06
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yay wotc did something right. things are sure looking up.
( save for that new drizzt novel line..... might be one I purposely skip) |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Renin
Learned Scribe
USA
290 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 04:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In truth, I'm getting more disgusted by the constant negativity than by anything WotC has done or failed to do. I was one of the biggest opponents to 4E and the 4E Realms, and I'm still trying to give them a chance. I wish others could do the same.
And this is the reason why I've all but quit even lurking on these boards in the last few months. Well said. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 05:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
The thing I like about Reynolds is that he's not afraid to tell someone when they are being a bonehead. That includes the fans.
He's also not afraid to question the status quo, which is why he was an excellent addition to the design team that breathed new life into the Realms in Third Edition.
That's great in theory, but a little questionable in practice. I recall SJR condemning infravision once, and then later we got darkvision for 3E. I miss infrared vision!
But bringing back peeps from the old days can help bring back the feel of the old days, so all in all, I welcome this news. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 05:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
That's great in theory, but a little questionable in practice. I recall SJR condemning infravision once.
Not questionable at all if history is any indication, because 3E was a success. Why? In part because 3E looked at all the rules and did away with more than one sacred cow.
Infravision was a wonky mechanic that needed to go, just like THAC0, and the game was better for it. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 05:55:24
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While I agree that infravision was wonky, I disagree that it needed to go... I think it should have stayed, if for no other reason to preserve prior continuity.
An in-setting explanation for it changing or being lost would be acceptable, as well -- anything but the approach they took of "nope, no such thing as infravision has ever existed, despite its use in multiple stories and books."
This is obviously a place where I disagree with SKR, but it doesn't change the fact that I think he's done some really good stuff. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 06:47:47
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I've had the privilege of listening to SKR at one of the local SF/F conventions at a panel on which he was sitting (this was a few years back, obviously), and while I've always thought well of his work, being able to listen to the man was to understand the thoughts behind what he does.
Relax.  Everything's in good hands. As one of the people in the Keep who can claim the title of 'grognard' like few can, I say we are only going to come out ahead. I won't claim we'll absolutely love everything he does, but the markers for the Realms are already in place - I think we'll be looking at some quality stuff (wow, I sound like a pusher) soon enough.
- OMH |
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sno4wy
Senior Scribe
USA
466 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 15:33:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I agree that infravision was wonky, I disagree that it needed to go... I think it should have stayed, if for no other reason to preserve prior continuity.
An in-setting explanation for it changing or being lost would be acceptable, as well -- anything but the approach they took of "nope, no such thing as infravision has ever existed, despite its use in multiple stories and books."
This is obviously a place where I disagree with SKR, but it doesn't change the fact that I think he's done some really good stuff.
Kind of going off on a tangent here, but how are we supposed to integrate what happened with Infravision? If we're writing stuff concerning characters who used to have infravision, which is now darkvision, are the characters supposed to act as if they never had the ability to see heat emanations? Furthermore, how does Narbondel work now? |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 17:55:45
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If you are using third edition rules, then characters never had infravision to begin with.
If you keep with the older rules, or use 3E but with infravision, then everything is fine. 3E did not retroactively invalidate older rulebooks or the DM's ability to use any rule he or she likes. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 18:30:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Not questionable at all if history is any indication, because 3E was a success. Why? In part because 3E looked at all the rules and did away with more than one sacred cow.
Successful money-wise, OK. But simply doing away with sacred cows in a setting which is supposed to be predicated on continuity of precious details is not really successful at its core. It's imposing financial concerns on top of thematic ones.
And methinks that that's exactly what 4E attempted to do, as well--except it failed.
Why should we defend the basic practice of prioritizing finance over theme on the one hand, and yet bemoan it on the other? Do ends justify the means? Does it just come down to which edition that stabs continuity in the back actually makes the most money doing it?
quote:
Infravision was a wonky mechanic that needed to go, just like THAC0, and the game was better for it.
No, infravision wasn't wonky. It was just complex. Gamers were too lazy to think it through, and designers were tired of helping them to think it through. SKR never showed any actual problems with the mechanics, that I could tell. He just complained about the complainers and his having to deal with them.
Darkvision isn't much better. It just substitutes an utterly explainable mechanic for one that was explainable, without ever dramatizing the substitution. Talk about a clumsy transition.
And it was no less wrong for 3E to do that than wiping out all those lands and peoples with 4E. In fact, at least 4E kinda-sorta explained in world why it was doing away with the old stuff. 3E didn't even do that.
The lore on Gauntlgrym/Gauntulgrym has been very confusing over the years. No one would argue that. So should it all have been summarily dismissed too, and replaced with the simplistic realm of Sunnydale instead? Or should it, rather, be retconned in order to make sense of it, as with Krashos's recent work?
I hope that SKR has learned some lessons from these wholesale deletions and substitutions in previous versions. Simply calling people boneheads and eliminating sacred cows is not really a good way to handle things. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2015 : 20:13:59
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SKR was one member of a team with the 3E stuff. Just because he supports the idea of not having infravision doesn't mean he was the one that put it into the ruleset.
Honestly, I think that with the advent of 3E, there was a deliberate push to not worry about prior FR continuity. And I personally put most of the blame on one designer, based on his own comments and actions, and other things I've seen. For various reasons, I do not name this designer, but I will note that he is not currently affiliated with WotC. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 May 2015 20:16:56 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2015 : 01:30:46
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Thanks for the reassurances Wooly. I certainly was not plugged in to the Realms back in late 2E/early 3E, so I don't know what the case was. It is very conceivable that SKR might've been unfairly singled out WRT this particular detail, but he is the one who has been consistently cited when I've asked around these parts about why infravision was dropped.
But he clearly was involved in a lot more than just that one concern, and I welcome the return of the overall feel.
Just as long as continuity-abandonment is not portrayed as heroicly tipping over so many sacred cows... |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2015 : 01:54:23
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I like Sean. We have very similar personalities and he's been great at holding me to the flame to get content right (Paizo freelancing).
If he handles the brunt of FR stuff, he is a better option than others... |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2015 : 02:35:18
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| I like SKR too, |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2015 : 03:56:07
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Thanks for the reassurances Wooly. I certainly was not plugged in to the Realms back in late 2E/early 3E, so I don't know what the case was. It is very conceivable that SKR might've been unfairly singled out WRT this particular detail, but he is the one who has been consistently cited when I've asked around these parts about why infravision was dropped.
He did write something for his site, as I recall, that defended removing infravision from the game... He may or may not have been involved, but publicly defending the move certainly drew a lot of the ire to him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 May 2015 04:10:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2015 : 17:17:34
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I only got about halfway down pg.1 before I decided I needed to respond, so if anyone else has said this (and I believe several may have), then my apologies.
I did not hear about it here, I heard about it on the web (I don't come here that often anymore). My initial reaction/impression was 'traffic cop', which isn't about mechanics vs/over lore, but rather, keeping a whole bunch of different stuff straight, whether it be 'crunch or fluff', and making sure third parties are all marching to the same drummer. This is more of a 'getting your ducks in a row' position, and it sounds perfect for Mr. Reynolds.
So for those of you crying "What about Ed?" or "What about 'the dream team'?" (the old CORE concept), this speaks to that. If Ed - or whoever else we love - is busily churning out Realmslore, do you think he has the time to hold everyone else's hand as well? He probably doesn't have the time to hold his own **** when he goes to the toilet, let alone babysit dozens of freelancers and in-house guys.
If anything, this tells me 'we have so much going on ATM that we've decided we need a traffic cop again'. How the HELL can anyone think that bodes unwell for FR? To me, this is more like hearing harps on your deathbed (as opposed to hearing flames crackling...)
So, suck it up, cupcakes. Sounds to me like things are about to pop, and in a good way.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 May 2015 14:02:56 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2015 : 01:14:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In truth, I'm getting more disgusted by the constant negativity than by anything WotC has done or failed to do. I was one of the biggest opponents to 4E and the 4E Realms, and I'm still trying to give them a chance. I wish others could do the same.
Oh. You mean, the company that repeatedly demonstrated deep contempt toward both fans and authors? That sprayed over everything it released every sort of puerile or ideological garbage in existence? That buried everything more interesting than MMO trash and replaced FR with a zombie made of MMO trash except a few popular parts and the names borrowed the real thing because the new developers couldn't even invent better names than WikiCopyCats like DarkGloom and ShadowBad?..
And it finally! Does something! About the setting in question. After at least half of good developers gave up and left (including SKR - as the link says, he was "rehired").
How dare we doubt the shiny future now? Dunno... perhaps something is wrong with us. Like... not being goldfish? 
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
That's great in theory, but a little questionable in practice. I recall SJR condemning infravision once, and then later we got darkvision for 3E. I miss infrared vision!
...and "darkvision" is the most eminent part of what became the cancer of 3e: consistency dissolving into slime of "it's not, but maybe it is, but maybe mumble mumble or hurr durr".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Champions of Valor
Cloak & Dagger
Expedition to Undermountain
Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd edition
Into the Dragon's Lair
Lords of Darkness
Magic of Faerūn
Mysteries of the Moonsea
Pool of Radiance: Attack on Myth Drannor
Unapproachable East
Okay, Cloak & Dagger was great, no question. But SKR was one of 3 co-authors there, with Eric Boyd and Steve Schend at that. My sigh of relief is on hold so far.
I could decry some content in other books, but the thing is... there SKR is also one of 3-4 co-authors, so this remains inconclusive either way.
He also co-wrote lots of interesting stuff outside FR, including Ghostwalk in 3.0 era and Alternity earlier - which is kind of cool. And again.
At least, with Grubb or Baker you could tell, and even know what to expect.
The good parts here, however, are:
1) SKR may or may not qualify for a "grognard", but he certainly is aware of FR lore back from before the wave of H&S "miniatures game" hack stuff late 2e. Which is enough to be somewhat reassuring. Given that the potential contributors include a swarm of classical "patients trying to run the asylum", at least one master of shoehorning and at least one stray Jedi who consistently fails to give a coprolite about existing lore because she knows even better How Everything Should Be.
2) Even if SKR didn't personally invent every single cool thing in all of those books, he at very least demonstrated very good ability to recognize what is worth picking and working with... Which is more important for oversight and coordination purpose.
So... I'll adapt "carefully hopeful" stance for now. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2015 : 02:58:03
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In truth, I'm getting more disgusted by the constant negativity than by anything WotC has done or failed to do. I was one of the biggest opponents to 4E and the 4E Realms, and I'm still trying to give them a chance. I wish others could do the same.
Oh. You mean, the company that repeatedly demonstrated deep contempt toward both fans and authors? That sprayed over everything it released every sort of puerile or ideological garbage in existence? That buried everything more interesting than MMO trash and replaced FR with a zombie made of MMO trash except a few popular parts and the names borrowed the real thing because the new developers couldn't even invent better names than WikiCopyCats like DarkGloom and ShadowBad?..
And it finally! Does something! About the setting in question. After at least half of good developers gave up and left (including SKR - as the link says, he was "rehired").
How dare we doubt the shiny future now? Dunno... perhaps something is wrong with us. Like... not being goldfish?
So a company changed for the worst, and that automatically makes them unable to ever change again?
They are trying to make things up to the fans, they've got the original creator of the setting excited and involved, and they're deliberately rehiring past talent... Yeah, there is absolutely no indication that they intend to do things differently. Let's just keep bashing them. I'm sure that trashing them when they're trying to work with us will be a winning strategy.
You know, I'm not asking people to assume that all is well and we're going to automatically get awesome products that are exactly what we want... I'm just asking that we stop attacking them for every little thing they do, especially when it's stuff we've said we want. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 May 2015 02:59:47 |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2015 : 03:37:14
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I think it bodes well that Sean has been hired.
Until we hear soemthing outright BAD out of WOTC, I think we should remain cautiously optimistic.
The WOTC guys seem sincere in not repeating the mistakes of 4E.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2015 : 14:43:49
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It's not a problem of attacking in some cases, Wooly, it's a problem of people lying.
If something is not true, and a person keeps saying it even after evidence is provided to the contrary, then that person is no longer sharing an opinion. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2015 : 11:32:42
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| God, I hope SKR does some deity articles for the lesser known deities, or even the returning ones. I'd kill for a Myrkul, Savras or Velsharoon article. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2015 : 14:17:18
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| Great news!!! |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Topic |
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Sean K. Reynolds heads to WoTc to work on FR lore
