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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:30:53
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Hm. Good mind darkened by hate toward a particular person... or dark mind that gets along fine with those it likes?
For me, good isn't capable of doing evil without remorse and atonement, while evil is quite capable of playing nice with others. Of course there are flavors and grades of good and evil, but I have little hesitation slapping a label on those who do evil and "let it stand" without mitigation or making exceptions for those who don't deserve it.
Edit: I don't ignore good things that people (or gods) have done. But doing something good for someone somewhere at some point doesn't bleach all the bad out of other things they've done... that would be no more fair or realistic than one evil deed completely overwriting a lifetime of good.
I'm not saying that the Seldarine are evil because of one little "oops" that happened 10k years ago, and ignoring all the good they've done since then.
I'm saying that whoever was responsible for the curse is evil because of the inherent darkness necessary to explain a callous disregard for thousands of innocents, over the course of thousands of years.
And I'm open to exploring the good the Seldarine have done since then. Has it really been good? Or just good for the elves, or certain elves?
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 06 Apr 2015 18:41:18 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:40:18
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Honestly, I can't say, because it varies on a case-by-case basis and (as you said) we all have our personal interpretation. However, to me this shows the limitation of the alignment system (unless you feel that ''neutral'' could cut it), because you can't put people in boxes, much less more complex beings (like gods).
(on your edit: I know and totally agree that the Seldarine's main guilt is their indifference after the curse, that's why I made the example of a person with enduring hatred towards someone). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2015 18:44:52 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:46:40
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Well, yea, it's true that boxing them is awkward... and yet isn't that exactly what the Seldarine did with the dark elves? They're all evil, they're always going to be evil, they're already lost to the demons and Lolth, get rid of them. Doesn't that invite judgment of the same kind?  |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 18:53:32
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| In world? Perhaps, as the kind of choice that they have made, their doing nothing to improve the situation (not even help someone like Eilistraee that is trying to fix the mess that they have created) is something that angers me. From an objective viewpoint, however, I don't think that we should box them. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I don't think that we should box them.
Ok, so maybe kung fu or ju-jitsu? 
Fair enough. Knowing only what we read, I'm frustrated too. I feel like rewriting a few bits of elven history if it ever becomes relevant in my games, because I'm not really comfortable with the elves (or the Seldarine) as written. But it's possible that there were other things in the designers' minds that didn't make it into the final draft of the sources we have. Also possible that other sources were planned and never made it off the printing press. And we're not even all in agreement about the sources we do have. There's definitely wiggle room.
Edit: and of course room to declare things completely different in our own campaigns. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 06 Apr 2015 19:03:46 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:08:15
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As far as alignment goes, as I said earlier, I think that's where "chaotic" in CG comes in, because it would suggest that, while ultimately more good than evil, the CG individual could also have reckless tendencies (though Tyr is a lawful deity and, IIRC, he has made some reckless moves, too). The alignment of "lawful evil" has never made much sense to me, but I don't actually play D&D much, so I don't always understand the terms and alignments. And this of course brings up the age-old question of good and evil. Shar and Bane, for example, are evil deities, but so are Mask and Vhaeraun. The latter, while not an Eilistraee, is also working for the betterment of the drow (though his idea of that is different than his sister's). I don't think Vhaeraun is evil on the same level as his mother. I'm actually a fan of Vhaeraun as much as I am Eilistraee.
Anyway, you're probably right, xaeyruudh and we've said all that can productively be said, but I'll just say this, as I've thought about this a lot. I still like Corellon, and the Seldarine in general, and I likely always will. I believe that ultimately, they are good, or at least neutral, if we're going with alignments here (I believe Sheverash, for example, is CN, though I could be wrong). But I do agree that what happened with the Descent was...drastic. I also think however that we are looking at this through a mortal lens, and we, as mortals, can't always comprehend the actions of gods (I know they're fictional, but go with me on this). I believe that the Aryvandaar gold elves were as much at fault as the Ilythiiri, for they started the Crown Wars. I know the punishment of the Vyshaantaar empire does not match the Descent, but the Vyshaan were forsaken and cut off from elven society, which is essentially what happened with the dark elves, though granted, the Vyshaan were not sent underground or “marked” in the same way the dark elves were. As was pointed out, Corellon probably did favor the gold elves over the dark elves, as his worshipers are primarily gold and moon elves, and any god is going to favor their majority. This is not to say that he didn't have followers among the dark elves (pre-drow label), for those who didn't follow Lolth or other dark powers were followers of the Seldarine.
Corellon choose (in his mind) the lesser of two evils. It was either the elves, or the dark elves, who were becoming more and more influenced by Lolth and others (I know Ghaunadaur was another one). By the time of the Descent, some dark elves already were living underground, in a fortress called Narathmault, where they practice fiend bindings (these fiends turn on them when the Descent happens). Not all the dark elves were followers of Lolth yet, but left unchecked, they may have succumbed to her wiles (kind of ironic that they became hers, anyway). This is why I think, in a way, Corellon is already being punished for what happened. The "curse" turned the drow into a pretty awesome race, that, while "evil", are intelligent and resourceful. They are among the elves' worst enemies. Even though the spell didn't go as it was supposed to, the Seldarine could have seen it as eliminating a threat. By banishing -all- the dark elves, you isolate Lolth's influence. Again, it's ironic that they became hers, anyway. But “cursing you and your unborn child, too,” isn’t actually that uncommon. This is a lame example, but it’s all I can come up with: a woman in a royal court is pregnant, and she does something terrible, like try to usurp the throne or do something malicious to try and gain power. She is caught, and the king banishes her. Her unborn child, if she had left while enough alone, could have had a chance at the throne (assuming it’s a boy, and even if it was a girl, it could have had a chance for some sort of prominent position), but because of the actions of its mother, the king not only banishes her, but ensures that the child is cut off from succession. It’s cruel, because the child has done nothing wrong, but it ensures that the would-be usurper cannot use her future offspring against the throne, even though the poor child is blameless. The action of cutting off mother and child is seen as a “necessary evil”. Again, I realize this likely a lame example, but it’s all I could come up with.
If Corellon did see the mistake he made, and didn’t fix it for whatever reason (couldn’t, pride, or whatever), the “good since then” started with the creation of the Elven Court, and the destruction of the Vyshaan empire to end the Crown Wars. Since then, the elves have not fought against each other on this large of scale, and are mostly united, though there is ongoing tension between moon and gold elves. Eilistraee is making a comeback (or was, until the events of LP), though she could use help, I agree—that’s a lot of responsibility for one person, even a goddess. The elves, as a whole, have become a more peaceful race (there are power-hungry individuals, but that’s true with every race). And I think the Seldarine since the Crown Wars have themselves become more peaceful deities. That’s just the impression I get, based on novels, though Corellon hasn’t been a “character” since Evermeet.
The Crown Wars taught the elves—mortal and divine—a lesson, and again, one wonders why the curse wasn’t “fixed”, but this is one of the reasons why I wish there was more information not only on the Crown Wars, but on the events of LP. As was pointed out to me earlier, the ritual performed in LP didn’t give the drow/dark elves much of a choice, but I think with a spell like that, you can’t really choose. It’s not like an elf could raise their hand and say whether or not they wanted to be transformed. I think the biggest lesson to be learned here--and that still seems to need to be learned--is don't use High Magic unless you are certain of the outcome. I still think the ritual performed in LP was an -attempt- to undo the curse. That's how it appeared to me.
Anyway, sorry, I realize I was all over the place there. Posts were added before I was done writing, so I kept writings as thoughts came to me. I apologize if they appear haphazard and jump around ^^;this took me a long time to write lol.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:23:33
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The thing is (we have repeated this many times now) the Vyshaan -the leaders of the gold elves- were cut off by the society, while for the dark elves -in the same exact situation- it wasn't only their leaders/mages/priests to be punished, but the whole race. And if it wwas a mistake, no one cared about it. And that is definitely unjust.
Corellon's situation wasn't of the ''you can only save either the gold elves or the dark ones, but not both'' kind. He could have saved both.
By cursing the drow, he didn't isolate Lolth's influence, he let it become stronger and stronger. He let her gain power and force his dark elven children into her arms. Her influence couldn't have spread among the elves anyway (as others have pointed out). If he wanted to cut down her influence, he should have operated otherwise, hunting down the Ilythiiri equivalent of the Vyshaan (and those -ironically- were left free to keep influencing the dark elves) and preventing their corruption from affecting the common people (who were likely mostly decent), for example.
As for the ritual, I think that we've discussed that before. At this point of the elven history, ''drow'' is no longer a curse, it is an identity that people are born with and are proud of. Drow -even Eilistraeens- are generally described as proud of what they are (and that is a totally normal thing). Eilistraee works so that the drow can grow and flourish in the world and establish themselves as rightful inhabitants of Faerun. At this point, removing the curse is not the issue, it is not what Eilistraee wants or fights for, at this point, acceptance is what is needed. Why should the drow give up on what they are just to be accepted? We have already talked about how the choice could be given. Anyway the ritual was actually Q'arlynd's and his team's work (and -from a meta perspective- WotC's way to remove all good drow that aren't Drizzt), so whatever ...
Besides, even if Corellon was behind it (and it would be an arrogant act, for what I've just said), it was waaay too late, and he still didn't do anything to actually, significantly help his daughter.
And Eilistraee could easily have a second comeback, now that the Sundering has restored her alongside the others (if she was actually gone, since it is totally possible that she has actually survived, albeit weakened and forced to hide, for reasons already discussed), but Corellon has to aid her, or that will hardly happen. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 06 Apr 2015 19:33:31 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:32:05
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| I would love to see Eilistraee have a second comeback. I'm as eager to see what has happened to her as others are. There have been rumors and speculation, yes, but I want some concrete info. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 19:35:30
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I would love to see Eilistraee have a second comeback. I'm as eager to see what has happened to her as others are. There have been rumors and speculation, yes, but I want some concrete info.
Yeah, but there have so many rumors and hints, even by people at WotC (Perkins), of her comeback that it is basically certain. Foreground info would be totally welcome though. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 20:43:47
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
this took me a long time to write lol.
Corellon couldn't ask for a more loyal defender. 
I think we look at the whole issue from fundamentally different perspectives, and that will color how we perceive each new bit of information.
You like Corellon, and the Seldarine, and you find things that point to their goodness. Nothin wrong with that, it makes sense and I'm not criticizing... just saying I don't expect you to suddenly go "yea, what a bummer, you're totally right, Corellon is like Gruumsh's better-looking brother."
I'm coming from a perspective that says "this thing that was done was Evil, and given the lack of apparent attempts to remedy it I'm calling the one responsible Evil." And from that perspective, nothing I'm reading or that anyone has brought up so far is sufficient to redeem Corellon. 
But I don't mean for this to be a crusade against the Seldarine, or even Corellon. I was initially pretty peeved, due to my own liking for the elves and "heck yea, stab Gruumsh in the other eye!" This sorta rained on the parade for me. But you're under no obligation to feel the same way about it. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2015 : 21:31:16
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*bows*? Lol jk. Part of the reason the post took me so long is that I am not the best debator. Even if I feel strongly about a topic and have a lot to say about it, conveying my thoughts is not my strong suit lol. In all fairness, I get where you're coming from, and I realize I am in the minority here. I have noticed that a lot people don't like elves and/or their gods, for various reasons. And I am not saying Corellon is without blame for the Descent. None of the FR gods are perfect (and that is actually part of their appeal for me), and they are prone to, if you will "human" emotions. But, because they are gods, their actions based on those
emotions have more drastic results than a mortal's would. We can't really know why the "oopsies" of the high magic ritual wasn't fixed, and I think some elven theologians are as baffled by it as we are. But again, we, as mortals, cannot understand the workings/motivations of the gods. I'm not saying what happened was right or fair, but I think it should be taken with a grain of salt because we just don't have that much information. All we really get is "the high magic ritual, performed by priests and mages and aided by the Seldarine, transformed all the dark elves into drow". No sourcebook I have scoured over the last few days goes into much detail about it. Maybe the designers did that intentionally, so that we would have to speculate.
I don't think Corellon should be labelled as evil, but I am not saying he's perfect, either. But I do think that in away, the curse of the drow became the elves' curse, too, because, as I said, the "consequence" of the ritual turned the drow into a pretty awesome race, and now the elves (and their gods) have to live with that. The curse has come back to bite them, and innocent elves are now subject to drow torment, just as the innocent dark elves were turned into drow. This is why I think there doesn't need to be further punishment for the Seldarine. Again, not right or fair, but the whole situation isn't.
I'm an elf fan, but I am a drow fan, too, and I am all for an alliance between Eilistraee and elves. At this point, I think they're tolerated, at least. Shevarashans for example are supposed to leave Eilistraeens alone, but I don't know how successful that's been, since they would likely shoot before looking to see if a drow wore a symbol of Eilistraee or not. I actually have a soft spot for Shevy, though, even though I think he is closer to getting the "evil" label than Corellon is.
The Seldarine will step in to help their people, but they also teach self-sufficiency, which is why I think it took so long for them to get involved with the Crown Wars. They wanted to see if the elves could settle things themselves. By the time the Descent happened, I think the Seldarine were pissed at the entire race, which is why they had the elven leaders form the Elven Court. They wanted to ensure something like this didn't happen again. By extension, that could include the Descent. The Seldarine didn't want to have another reason to banish anyone, or risk another "mistake" like Descent.
While we could argue the Seldarine should have fixed the curse--and that argument has merit--I think in the time since then, the Seldarine, and the elves as a whole, have become more humble. Oh, yes, elves are still prideful and haughty (particularly gold elves, and there are certain elves I can think of who are real jerk-faces), but they now strive more for the preservation of their people. The Crown Wars taught them a very hard lesson, and the elven population has never recovered. I have read a lot of FR books starring elves, and while there are definitely some who I dislike, the majority of them are kind and good-hearted. I think now the elves, and by extension the Seldarine, are striving towards the betterment of their race, and that is their alway of atoning for not only the Descent, but the Crown Wars as a whole.
And who knows, maybe when Eilistraee shows herself again, she may come back stronger.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2015 : 06:17:15
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Why doesn't history contain even a single mention of repentant high mages trying to fix it?
In an organized way? Because this would require first studying what have gone wrong. And they had other pressing problems - including consequences of Ilythiiri bindings failing all over the place and Aryvandaar assassins picking them off.
Also, the Elves in general and HM in particular don't have a habit of fixing their mess. Quite the opposite. Seldarine changed their poor babies' diapers every time, gave them lollipop, and they, well... remained babies soiling their diapers. That's how they eventually drove themselves to near-extinction, after all.
quote:
Why were the high mages unable to fix it?
The only way, obviously, is to revert one by one - providing HM are willing (see my quote from Cormanthyr above) and able and the specific victim trusts them.
Go on, imagine the process. "How about the Holy Elven Inquisition will take a look at you and if they'll find you not corrupt or too attached to anyone in Ilythiir..." yeah, there'd be queues of applicants. 
Oh, and that's some time after light sensitivity kicked in, so these were already in hiding.
quote:
Why were the Seldarine unable to fix it?
Same reason why they were unable to do it on their own and avoid the problem in the first place: outside their sandboxes, gods don't get to shake their rattles too broadly.
Also, the drow changed... "Cast out of Corellon's favor" - and out of his power (to the same degree as humans or halflings).
quote:
Why was the practice of high magic allowed to continue, after it became clear that a possible completely unintended side effect of targeting a couple of evil-doers was damning their entire race to becoming drow?
It's an ancient Elven tradition, and they lost their ways far too much already. High Mages must have become "unaccountably shy" for a while, of course... Which also gives them one more convenient excuse to not actively seek the fix, BTW.
quote:
Why is there no guilt for diminishing the beauty of the world and darkening the history of the elves by turning the supposedly-universally-evil dark elves into the much-closer-to-universally-evil drow?
Because they are Elves. Shiny perfect (with occasional unfortunate exceptions to which there's no need to pay too much attention) "children of the Gods". It's never their fault. Especially when it obviously is.
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2. As #1, but the Seldarine didn't try very hard to fix it.
If the Seldarine are Good, how could they so easily condone the damning of elven children?
See, here you already ditched the point that the result differs from intended.
If only Ilythiir was cursed, there would be less of them to revert, and this could be more between cursed and uncursed dark elves.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Not all the dark elves were followers of Lolth yet, but left unchecked, they may have succumbed to her wiles (kind of ironic that they became hers, anyway).
If a plan leads to exactly the same outcome remote possibility of which it was supposed to prevent, maybe the correct descriptor is not "ironic", but plain "stupid"? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 01:21:44
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The main question that comes to my mind is this:
Were the Ilythiiri blessed with a greater fertility than other elves BEFORE OR AFTER the descent (because Drow obviously have more children since they also throw them away easily)? They were turning to other gods not of the Seldarine, but were they also breeding faster and therefore even more of a threat such that within a generation or two, the Seldarine may have fallen? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 01:34:12
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| I also wonder, were we to go back and truly study the ancient Ilythiiri, would we find that a lot of them were taking them simple approaches to magical study in order to gain power. Would we find that many turned into Warlocks or Pact Magic users and drew upon the powers of "fiends" and "far realm" entities, rather than traditional divine and arcane magic users. Perhaps this change into the drow possibly broke the linkage of these individuals temporarily to their masters, or even killed such individuals, which is why their societies drew away from such practices for the most part (IF they actually did.... I wouldn't be surprised to find entire drow cultures surrounding such). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 01:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Didn't see an inking of his influence when Kiaransalee got wiped either.
Doesn't mean they won't use him to "explain" it retroactively.
Exhibit A: Leira being killed by Cyric offscreen. It didn't happen, until it had already happened.
Didn't actually happen. It was a lie. Cyric was tricked. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 02:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I also wonder, were we to go back and truly study the ancient Ilythiiri, would we find that a lot of them were taking them simple approaches to magical study in order to gain power. Would we find that many turned into Warlocks or Pact Magic users and drew upon the powers of "fiends" and "far realm" entities, rather than traditional divine and arcane magic users. Perhaps this change into the drow possibly broke the linkage of these individuals temporarily to their masters, or even killed such individuals, which is why their societies drew away from such practices for the most part (IF they actually did.... I wouldn't be surprised to find entire drow cultures surrounding such).
You might be on to something. In the old 2E Drow of the Underdark, it is mentioned that some 16,000 years ago, "dark cults" of outer planar denizens were fighting worshippers of Lolth and have several times since. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 05:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I also wonder, were we to go back and truly study the ancient Ilythiiri, would we find that a lot of them were taking them simple approaches to magical study in order to gain power. Would we find that many turned into Warlocks or Pact Magic users and drew upon the powers of "fiends" and "far realm" entities, rather than traditional divine and arcane magic users. Perhaps this change into the drow possibly broke the linkage of these individuals temporarily to their masters, or even killed such individuals, which is why their societies drew away from such practices for the most part (IF they actually did.... I wouldn't be surprised to find entire drow cultures surrounding such).
Either RSEs explain the changes in the setting from one edition to the next, or we assume that the world has always worked according to the rules we choose.
I have skin in this game and I won't let WotC have it both ways. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2015 : 13:38:14
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The main question that comes to my mind is this:
Were the Ilythiiri blessed with a greater fertility than other elves BEFORE OR AFTER the descent (because Drow obviously have more children since they also throw them away easily)?
The latter may be a result of cap on total head-count in caves and greater population density it creates.
But you're assuming that it's the Drow who are "blessed with a greater fertility" rather than their cousins are cursed with lesser. Why?
Let's compare the surface Elves with... other surface Elves?
They used to do better than that. They have spread through the continent enough to eventually end up with border conflicts and conquests. Some still do better.
The Elves don't die out, for example, in Zakhara. But then, the Enlightened elves don't go monkeypoo if one of them hooks up with a human, and aren't particularly tempted to jump human bones as distinctly more alive than them in the first place. Nor do they have organizations like Eldreth Veluuthra and church of the Black Archer - humans outnumber them even in known holy slayer orders, not that such groups weren't far more decent than "baww! them all!" anyway. They don't run off and later when old allies ask where everyone is, have to say "oh, but you don't understand, when an Elf is being a chicken, it's totally special and awesome".
They would probably answer a suggestion to act like this with a stab in the face. 
In order to acomplish anything worth of a mention, the best of them don't need to invite non-elves to have something actually done, go live with other species, nor (no more often than humans do, anyway) abandon everything and seclude themselves.
Poscadar elves? They are just fine, and get along with Azuposi neighbours splendidly.
From the "mainstream" elves, some sylvan types are quite viable, but they paid for it with pretty much all traces of civilization. And (usually) becoming isolated oddities without allies outside their land - thus, given that they don't have an ambition to grow beyond being adequate to deal with threats they deal with daily, they tend to either live there only until the other shoe drops, or hide behind the treants' trunks whenever anything outside sneezes in their general direction.
Other non-surface elves?
Sea elves are somewhere between town and forest elves - but their life differs from surface elves in several important details, including religion mostly limited to their own ancestral deity. Much like the Avariel. Who have little in common with other elves, and either hold their own against a greater and deliberate threat of dragons or become pretty much forest elves with wings (see above).
In other words: the most obvious difference is that vast majority of those elves are not degenerate narcissists who can't be arsed to save their own behinds, and hinder anyone who tries.
So it looks like there's nothing inherently wrong with surface elves in general. It's just the result of a lifestyle they usually embrace.
That is, the Glorious Elven Way. Which they learned under Seldarine.
Which ma-a-ay be one of the reasons why Elves most capable of dealing with the rest of the world tend to be the ones who feel the need to follow deities of avariel, humans (be it Mystra or Sune) or drow (I suppose a Green Elf who paints her hair silver will be still a little wild - but quite likely less so than her cousin back at home).
Hmm? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Corellon Must Die
