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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1588 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2015 :  13:28:57  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I'll ask you the same question I just asked George Krashos - are there monastery or school locations listed for either of those faiths, particularly sects that favor a more martial approach?


Since these are the specialty priests of their faiths, I think wherever the church is more present, you will find monasteries or temples with martial tradition. Liira's entry mentions Selgaunt, and Oghma's entry cites - among others places - Waterdeep, Sembia and... Candlekeep!

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  14:32:54  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
Ah, crap, one problem – the White Worm tribe dwell on the Great Glacier, which is the bigger glacier to the north, not the Glacier of the White Worm where the monks are. They aren't actually likely to meet. Sorry, my mistake (though an admittedly easy one). Still, no reason they can't have an offshoot or migrate between them.



Ah.. good self-catch. I wouldn't have noticed the difference had you not pointed it out. I checked out the wiki for the Glacier of the White Worm and found it rather sparse, so I feel there's plenty of room for me to customize without contradicting existing canon - that's not to say I won't create my own alterations, but I do make a concerted effort to utilize what's already established whenever possible.

That said, I think it's entirely reasonable to assume the Great Glacier barbarians (specifically the remorhaz-worhipping tribe) may have splintered long ago and now live in both locales. If all of Vaasa and Damara were once under ice that has now retreated, I can easily see the tribe getting split up. Was the entire area one massive ice-pack that has slowly retreated northwards (in what is still the Great Glacier) and the GotWW is simply a remnant that never melted due to its heightened elevation? If that's true the tribe could've encompassed the entire area originally, with elements staying put in the southern portion, and other tribesman continually migrating north. The two tribes could be functionally the same - in their beliefs, rituals, etc - but after several generations be wholly unaware of the other half and their shared ancestry. If that's palatable (and I certainly feel it is), I can simply use any info I find on the Great Glacier worm-tribe and just port that on over with a few minor modifications to account for the splintered culture.

Well, it looks like I've thoroughly derailed my own thread. What was a discussion on monasteries in Faerun is now focusing very firmly on the Monastery of the Yellow Rose and the surrounding area. I guess I never expected to find a locale that fits my scenario so wonderfully. Thanks to all who have contributed, I'll read up on the other suggestions out of curiosity, but this current region is working brilliantly.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 30 Mar 2015 14:35:50
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2015 :  19:25:29  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree that it's reasonable to put the barbarians in both locations. It's likely that the tribe and the Glacier of the White Worm both took their names from the remorhaz, and remorhaz are found on both glaciers, but there's nothing saying that the tribe (or part of it) didn't move from one place to the other.

The map on page 45 of the Grand History shows, circa -626 DR, that ice covered all of Vaasa and Damara, stretching as far south as the Earthspur Mountains. Going by that map, the Glacier of the White Worm is what's left of the southernmost extent of that crazy growth of ice.

That said, if you want to give the White Worm tribe an origin before 1000 DR (when the ice cap receded) then you have a case for them having simply followed the edge of the glacier northward along the ridges of the Galenas and then across Vaasa.



Regarding their canon home circa 1360 DR... I don't want to be a nitpicker, or argue with BadCatMan, but the White Worm tribe should be found at the base of the Great Glacier rather than on it. You can obviously put them up on top of the glacier if you want to; that would be more consistent with them "riding" the edge of the glacier northward.

FR9 (Bloodstone Lands) states this on page 59:

quote:

The land bordering the length of the Great Glacier is the territory of White Worm, covering the northernmost reaches of Vaasa... They rarely stray more than fifty miles from the Great Glacier, and most often travel among the winding turns of the glacier tunnel maze known as the Ice Run.



FR14 (Great Glacier) is kinda ambiguous, saying that they live on the edge of the glacier, but it's in a section on Vaasa on page 8... not within the material that's focused on the glacier itself:

quote:

A group of barbarians called the White Worm Tribe lives on the edge of the Great Glacier...



I don't think FR14 acknowledges any interactions between the barbarians and the tribes of the glacier. Also, I don't see clambering up on the glacier being valuable to them, or consistent with their belief that the Ice Run is holy ground. Surely food is more readily available (and safer to chase) on the ground than it is on top of the ice.

Thus, I interpret "on the edge" of the Glacier to be synonymous with "among the winding turns" at the base of the glacier.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 30 Mar 2015 19:27:01
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
385 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  04:38:45  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aha! It wasn't a mix-up after all, or at least not mine. The 2nd-edition campaign setting makes the connection, putting the "Tribe of the White Worm" living in the area of the Glacier of the White Worm. So they are indeed canonically there.

I found a bunch of old notes on the Glacier of the White Worm, and after this discussion, I think I'll write up the wiki article after all. :) Stay tuned. (No promises on when, mind.)

It's true it was once a part of the Great Glacier, that's confirmed in the 2e lore.

The 1st-edition campaign setting also puts Barroch's Hold, the "fabled citadel of the first great bandit lord of the Inner Sea" on the Glacier of the White Worm as well, so it could be a candidate for the Citadel of the White Worm.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  18:35:00  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Aha! It wasn't a mix-up after all, or at least not mine. The 2nd-edition campaign setting makes the connection, putting the "Tribe of the White Worm" living in the area of the Glacier of the White Worm. So they are indeed canonically there.

I found a bunch of old notes on the Glacier of the White Worm, and after this discussion, I think I'll write up the wiki article after all. :) Stay tuned. (No promises on when, mind.)

It's true it was once a part of the Great Glacier, that's confirmed in the 2e lore.


Ahhh, excellent. That's the direction I was moving in anyway, but it's good to hear it confirmed. It makes sense that the Tribe of the White Worm hangs out on the Glacier of the White Worm. I mean.. for goodness sake, their names share 80% overlap! I was looking into purchasing the Great Glacier sourcebook to flesh out this tribe, but it seems to primarily focus on the Ulutiun people (Inuit based humans)and the Inugaakalikurit (arctic dwarves), whereas the barbarians we've been discussing (both in IWD and the remorhaz-worshippers) are, I believe, of Uthgardt stock?

Interestingly enough, the wiki on the Uthgardt tribes mentions 13 original beast spirits, which became the 13 tribes - two of which have disappeared or dissolved (Red Pony and Golden Eagle). The White Worm is *not* among the remaining 11. There is an entry for "Great Worm", but no further information is linked to it, other than to say; "In 1372 DR, the Great Worm ancestral mound was the Great Worm Cavern." I don't know where that is located, but I'm guessing this is a dragon-based tribe, not a remorhaz one. I could be (and often am) wrong, but maybe the Worm Tribe barbarians are not of the same stock as the IWD guys, they just happen to share a lot in common as far as their dedication to a specific totem animal.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 31 Mar 2015 19:15:55
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  19:14:50  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan
The 1st-edition campaign setting also puts Barroch's Hold, the "fabled citadel of the first great bandit lord of the Inner Sea" on the Glacier of the White Worm as well, so it could be a candidate for the Citadel of the White Worm.


If I can derail even further, in a setting as exhaustively detailed as the Forgotten Realms, I find the amount of apocryphal information to be a bit puzzling. If this is all based on Mr. Greenwood's original notes, why are there any areas of mystery? I can see certain things getting re-arranged, cleaned up, refined, etc to account for some of the discrepancies between edition changes, that's fine. But the outright mysteries like "Who built this?" seem like they should be solvable. In this thread alone we now have 4 potential creators we've speculated on:

1. The Disciples of St. Sollars - probably the least likely theory, as several sources imply, or outright state, the monks moved into this pre-existing complex. While they have added on to it, and continue to delve further into the catacomb system, they did not originally erect the building(s).

2. Frost Giants - an intriguing concept. I've not yet seen any mention on the actual dimensions of the buildings, hallways, etc. I won't be reading either of the novels (The Rite and Rise of the King) for quite some time, I wonder if either of them mention the physical characteristics of the monastery, whether or not it is built on a scale far bigger than necessary for human occupation. That would be the key information on accepting or rejecting this theory.

3. Barbarians of the White Worm - this was my own speculation - a progressive chieftain convinces his people to give up their nomadic ways and settle in to an area, although I'm not sure they would've acquired the skills to build a permanent settlement so quickly. A successor later down the line would condemn this leader for making the people soft, and return his tribe to their previous, free-ranging ways, thus abandoning the structure for later occupation by the monks. I only cling to this possibility because "Citadel of the White Worm" is a confirmed previous name of this edifice. Why would it be called as such if anyone other than the tribe of the same name were its previous residents? I suppose the frost giants could also be remorhaz-worshipers. Seems a bit weak, but feasible I guess.

4. Barroch the Bandit Lord - it jives with the 1ed lore, so now we have yet another candidate. Did these bandits build this outpost as a fortress/homebase from which to conduct raids and hole up in when "the law" sought to strike back at them? What happened to them? Did they just die out over time without leadership to replace Barroch? Were they ousted by the Tribe of the White Worm?

Which brings me back to the original question: Why the mystery? Does Ed purposely keep some things cryptic to stimulate debate? Is it supposed to be vague so that individual readers/DMs can put their own stamp on it? I'm a newcomer to this site, but I see some of the heavyweight authors stop by from time to time - does Ed ever do any kind of "Ask the Creator" periods where he will shed light on things of this nature?
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  20:26:32  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I was looking into purchasing the Great Glacier sourcebook to flesh out this tribe, but it seems to primarily focus on the Ulutiun people (Inuit based humans)and the Inugaakalikurit (arctic dwarves),


Right. The Great Glacier book says basically nothing about the Great Worm barbarians. They're stated in an earlier source to live at the base of the glacier rather than on top of it.


quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

There is an entry for "Great Worm", but no further information is linked to it, other than to say; "In 1372 DR, the Great Worm ancestral mound was the Great Worm Cavern."


The Uthgardt "great worm" was Elrem the Wise, who wasn't a dragon or a remorhaz. He's mentioned in FR5, the Savage Frontier.

quote:
"Imagine a gigantic, bat-winged snake
with the head of a red dragon and you
will have a picture of this tribe's mythical
totem and its elder shaman... (though
tribal legend states that he was once
human and may be one of Uthgar's
sons).


No obvious connection to the eastern Great Worm tribe.

This is just my guess, but I think the Great Worm tribe of Vaasa and the Glacier of the White Worm were probably both named after the remorhaz. The Uthgardt Great Worm tribe, in contrast, undoubtedly took its name from Elrem.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 31 Mar 2015 20:37:15
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
35568 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  20:26:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed has deliberately left a lot of things vague. In part, it's because there is more potential there when questions remain. Additionally, sometimes it's more fun to create a mystery than it is to answer it.

A notable example is Qilué Veladorn, the drow member of the Seven Sisters. Ed detailed the other six, but deliberately left the seventh undescribed, with only a reference to a "dark disaster." Steven Schend later picked that up, decided to make her a drow, and then Ed was tasked with making her backstory.

Ed has shared some lore with me via email, when I asked specific questions about unsolved murders and unsolved disappearances. He discussed the circumstances of a handful of each, and noted that he didn't have an explanation for them, himself. So that was unpublished stuff that he deliberately left mysterious.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  20:35:58  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

Which brings me back to the original question: Why the mystery? Does Ed purposely keep some things cryptic to stimulate debate? Is it supposed to be vague so that individual readers/DMs can put their own stamp on it? I'm a newcomer to this site, but I see some of the heavyweight authors stop by from time to time - does Ed ever do any kind of "Ask the Creator" periods where he will shed light on things of this nature?


Ed's original notes on the Realms started before D&D was even around. Back then, he made up details to fill out the stories he imagined and wrote. When D&D was published, and he found some players, he started DMing. From that point forward, the Realms grew according to where his players wanted to go. If they started in Shadowdale, and followed the road leading north, then he described the road to Zhentil Keep and fleshed out the places they visited in that city. If they went to the Citadel of the Raven next, so did his expansion of the Realms.

So it's not deliberately shrouded in mystery... it's just a question of what the players wanted to see, and what he had time to write down.

Keeping some things hidden in order to stimulate debate? Maybe. I don't think he feels obligated to flesh everything out when "leaving something to the imagination" generates more possibilities. Meaning I don't think Ed himself wants the Realms to ever be fully detailed... because that wouldn't leave anything for us to add. There is of course, always the future, and fully describing the world even at one particular time is only a hypothetical possibility.

When things are left undetailed, it's more likely that an NDA prevents talking about them because maybe someone is planning to write a novel there, or something has been accepted and paid for by WotC but hasn't been published yet, or probably a few other reasons.

And yes, Ed is one of the heavyweight authors who answer questions here on Candlekeep.
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  21:07:25  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The Uthgardt "great worm" was Elrem the Wise, who wasn't a dragon or a remorhaz. He's mentioned in FR5, the Savage Frontier.



Not a dragon? The info I've found - admittedly most of which is fanon - almost invariably suggest he is a metallic dragon:

The 3.5 Uthgardt Totem Berserker (prestige class) gains Bonus language Draconic, and +4 racial bonus on Charisma-based checks against Good Dragons. The article uses this picture: http://www.dandwiki.com/w/images/3/3f/Uthgardt_totens.jpg

Also, I found the following blurb appearing in 3 or more separate wikis:

"1368: Year of the Banner

As the dwarves settled in for the winter in their reclaimed city of Felbarr, a group of Zhentarim-sponsored adventurers broke into Great Worm Cavern, slaying Elrem the Wise, (a good dragon and shaman leader of the Great Worm tribe). As the tribe's warriors descended into the ranks of the evil adventurers, teleportation magic spirited at least three of those responsible - as well as a vast amount of treasure stolen from Elrem - to safety.

According to Themrin, the tribe's present shaman, Elrem promised to "watch over the tribe in spirit now that my mortal form is destroyed." Despite the reassuring words of Elrem, the tribe suffered through an oppressive winter that included both heavy snow, scarce game, and low morale.

Trusted visitors to the barbarian encampment report that Themrin and Gweshen "Ironhand" Talistars are wearing some form of armor made from the scales of Elrem. This use of their former shaman's body as "protection" was supposedly ordained through a dream vision. The armor appears as little more than a supple leather armor, but seems to deflect blows and protect as well as full plate mail."


Some other sources indicate Elrem was a human, possibly a son of Uthgar who has somehow "transformed" into a great worm - possibly the only one in existence.






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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  21:36:15  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
And yes, Ed is one of the heavyweight authors who answer questions here on Candlekeep.



What?!?! An entire thread built for this express purpose? Consider my mind blown. I've only been registered here for about a week, I think it's obvious I have more exploring to do :) It's just so easy to get lost... so many subforums and so much information to take in. I sometimes click on what I think is a fairly innocuous subject, and then end up on a journey of hyperlinking through various wikis for several hours, utterly consumed in research bliss. Whatever saving throw I'm supposed to make in order to "stay on target" is one I fail every time.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 31 Mar 2015 21:37:21
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2015 :  22:01:11  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Both 1e and 3e had kung fu inspired monks, but 2e supressed this, letting this kind of character for Kara-Tur and its own flavor. I do prefer this viewpoint, but this is fantasy, and you can work with both paradigms.



I respect your viewpoint, but I heartily disagree with keeping monks in Kara-Tur. I live in suburban America - about as far away from China, Japan, and Korea as it is possible to be, both geographically and culturally - yet I cannot travel 10 miles in any direction from my house without encountering a school for Karate, Tae Kwan Do, Aikido, etc. I see under your avatar you are from Brazil. There is a Royce Gracie school of Jiu-Jitsu just a few miles from me :)

In Faerun, I think it's extremely unlikely that some enterprising Shou expatriates wouldn't think to open up schools in the western part of the world. Several of the border cities in both eastern Faerun (Telflamm, Westgate) as well as western Faerun along the Sword Coast have their own "Chinatown" communites with high Shou populations - those who are either banished from home, in self-imposed exile, or are 2nd generation and choose to stay in Faerun. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume the next step up: that large concentrations might strike out and start up their own self-sustaining compounds based around a particular faith.

And once those are established, depending on the rigidity of their members, they might be forced to accept humans of racial stock other than Shou in order to replenish their numbers over the years. Or they could branch out even further and allow non-humans to join their order. Can you imagine an elven monk? With their preternatural agility/coordination, long lifespans, and temperament towards patience and introspection, I'd think an elf would make an incredible Grand Master. The 3rd edition PHB states "The evil subterranean elves known as the drow have a small but successful monk tradition." Now that is a pretty chilling thought.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 31 Mar 2015 22:02:42
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2015 :  20:27:28  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Lady Penitent series starts off with a Lolth-worshipping monk, and (non-canon afaik) 2nd Baldur's Gate game for the P3 had the Dark Ravens, a sect of male monks (possibly Vhaeraun worshippers). Somewhere I've read about another sect of male dark-elven monks who coat their (left?) fist in pitch or tar, for what reason, idk. DDGttU, perhaps? Another scribe may be able to furnish the source.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 01 Apr 2015 20:29:23
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2015 :  20:36:12  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Blackened Fist, maybe? Not sure why, their fists are already black.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  00:16:58  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

It's just so easy to get lost... so many subforums and so much information to take in. I sometimes click on what I think is a fairly innocuous subject, and then end up on a journey of hyperlinking through various wikis for several hours, utterly consumed in research bliss. Whatever saving throw I'm supposed to make in order to "stay on target" is one I fail every time.


I've been around for a while and this still happens to me on a daily basis. Stopping it is impossible so I've given in. *ahem* and I've deliberately decided that it's something to be embraced and indulged.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  00:22:34  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

Somewhere I've read about another sect of male dark-elven monks who coat their (left?) fist in pitch or tar, for what reason, idk. DDGttU, perhaps? Another scribe may be able to furnish the source.



The 3e Underdark book, under Undrek'Thoz, pg 180-182.

Edit: there's a speculative thread about them here, though I would guess that the oath they take to Lolth is for appearances/legitimacy only and underneath the lip service to Lolth they probably serve Vhaeraun or Mask or no deity at all.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 02 Apr 2015 00:25:54
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1588 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  03:49:01  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion

I respect your viewpoint, but I heartily disagree with keeping monks in Kara-Tur. I live in suburban America - about as far away from China, Japan, and Korea as it is possible to be, both geographically and culturally - yet I cannot travel 10 miles in any direction from my house without encountering a school for Karate, Tae Kwan Do, Aikido, etc. I see under your avatar you are from Brazil. There is a Royce Gracie school of Jiu-Jitsu just a few miles from me :)

If Faerūn were not a world of magic, I could say that I could disagree with you because martial arts schools only went popular in western countries after media - specially cinema - and transports of more modern times allowed this kind of cultural exchange. Eastern cultures kept martial arts secret, and chinese towns or immigrants only became more common after the great navigations.

But the main reason I keep monks almost exclusively in Kara-Tur is flavor: I like to explore in western-based settings the ocidental myths and tales (elves, fire-breathing dragons, bearded wizards), arabian tales in near-eastern settings like Al-Qadim, and oriental characters and creatures in Kara-Tur. Exceptions can occur, but in my point of view, they are that, exceptions, and cannot be found in every corner. For the same reason, a fighter in my game will not find lions or tapyrs in european-style wilderness... Eventually, if they travel to Kara-Tur ou Maztica, for example, they will see the local animals, vegetation and culture as truly exotic. But this is my campaign option, feel free to disagree!

Edit: typos

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 02 Apr 2015 13:20:31
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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  03:57:18  Show Profile Send VikingLegion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
In this thread alone we now have 4 potential creators we've speculated on:

1. The Disciples of St. Sollars - probably the least likely theory, as several sources imply, or outright state, the monks moved into this pre-existing complex. While they have added on to it, and continue to delve further into the catacomb system, they did not originally erect the building(s).

2. Frost Giants - an intriguing concept. I've not yet seen any mention on the actual dimensions of the buildings, hallways, etc. I won't be reading either of the novels (The Rite and Rise of the King) for quite some time, I wonder if either of them mention the physical characteristics of the monastery, whether or not it is built on a scale far bigger than necessary for human occupation. That would be the key information on accepting or rejecting this theory.

3. Barbarians of the White Worm - this was my own speculation - a progressive chieftain convinces his people to give up their nomadic ways and settle in to an area, although I'm not sure they would've acquired the skills to build a permanent settlement so quickly. A successor later down the line would condemn this leader for making the people soft, and return his tribe to their previous, free-ranging ways, thus abandoning the structure for later occupation by the monks. I only cling to this possibility because "Citadel of the White Worm" is a confirmed previous name of this edifice. Why would it be called as such if anyone other than the tribe of the same name were its previous residents? I suppose the frost giants could also be remorhaz-worshipers. Seems a bit weak, but feasible I guess.

4. Barroch the Bandit Lord - it jives with the 1ed lore, so now we have yet another candidate. Did these bandits build this outpost as a fortress/homebase from which to conduct raids and hole up in when "the law" sought to strike back at them? What happened to them? Did they just die out over time without leadership to replace Barroch? Were they ousted by the Tribe of the White Worm?


Hey BadCatMan,
I posted the above question/speculations in the "Ask Ed" thread, and The Hooded One has already answered thusly:

"Hello again, all.
VikingLegion, the Monastery of the Yellow Rose is NDA (so as not to hamper any storytelling directions Bob Salvatore wants to pursue in future), but I've had a brief chat with Ed and can go so far as to provide the following answers to your questions:
1. Correct. The monks moved into it rather than erecting the buildings in the first place. They have done (minimal) rebuilding and maintenance since.
2. Intriguing concept, yes, but although the monastery has a few soaring halls, it's NOT built for any inhabitants as large as Frost Giants.
3. I think you might be on to something . . .
4. There's something here, too . . .
Ahem. I believe my stint of broad hinting here is done.
love,
THO"


So we can safely put options 1 and 2 to rest. The fact that she teasingly "semi-confirmed" 3 and 4 gives us a great direction to move in. My current theory is that Barroch the Bandit Lord did indeed build this edifice (thanks again for unearthing that valuable nugget of info from 1st edition) thus satisfying my unease with the barbarians so swiftly mastering architectural techniques. However, in the same manner of the Icewind Dale barbarians descending on Ten Towns, perhaps the Tribe of the White Worm too wanted a brief taste of the easy life. They would no doubt be aware of vast amounts of treasure accumulated by Barroch's band, so maybe they initially raided the fortress for simple loot and plunder motivation. But after slaughtering the bandits maybe they decided to settle in for a bit, lick their wounds, weather out a particularly harsh winter, etc.

This is why Barroch's Hold is renamed the Citadel of the White Worm. But at some point, as early as the following Spring, or as late as several generations later, the TotWW decide this "city living" is making them too soft, or offending their totem animal, and leave en masse to return to roaming the glacier, thus leaving it a ghost town for the Disciples of St. Sollars to conveniently move in.

Edited by - VikingLegion on 02 Apr 2015 03:59:59
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  03:58:29  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tapyrs, Barastir?!

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
385 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  07:05:28  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion
I was looking into purchasing the Great Glacier sourcebook to flesh out this tribe, but it seems to primarily focus on the Ulutiun people (Inuit based humans)and the Inugaakalikurit (arctic dwarves), whereas the barbarians we've been discussing (both in IWD and the remorhaz-worshippers) are, I believe, of Uthgardt stock?


Apparently they're related or similar, but have some differences. The Icewind Dale barbarians are known as "Reghedmen". The Tribe of the White Worm suits their naming format (Tribe of the Elk, etc.).

The Great Glacier has a small mention of the Tribe of the White Worm, but The Bloodstone Lands is much more detailed on the tribe, and of the course the Glacier and the Monastery.

quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegion1. The Disciples of St. Sollars - probably the least likely theory, as several sources imply, or outright state, the monks moved into this pre-existing complex. While they have added on to it, and continue to delve further into the catacomb system, they did not originally erect the building(s).


Actually, no, that was just my supposition for the above dating discrepancy. No source actually says such a thing. Specially, The Bloodstone Lands, page 41, says "The monks who established the monastery more than a thousand years ago crossed over land that would become Damara when that unborn nation was still overlain by the Great Glacier." The 2nd edition campaign setting says only "Monastery of the Yellow Rose founded in Damara." in 1242 DR, The Year of the Yellow Rose (fitting, really).

quote:
3. Barbarians of the White Worm - this was my own speculation - a progressive chieftain convinces his people to give up their nomadic ways and settle in to an area, although I'm not sure they would've acquired the skills to build a permanent settlement so quickly. A successor later down the line would condemn this leader for making the people soft, and return his tribe to their previous, free-ranging ways, thus abandoning the structure for later occupation by the monks. I only cling to this possibility because "Citadel of the White Worm" is a confirmed previous name of this edifice. Why would it be called as such if anyone other than the tribe of the same name were its previous residents? I suppose the frost giants could also be remorhaz-worshipers. Seems a bit weak, but feasible I guess.


Barbarians settling for a time would suggest more "hill-fort" than "citadel", i.e., huts on a hill surrounded by ditches and embankments, rather than a whopping great stone castle, which takes a lot of manpower and resources. Of course, there is always magic.

"Citadel of the White Worm" is another name for the "Monastery of the Yellow Rose", but which was used first was not confirmed.

quote:
4. Barroch the Bandit Lord - it jives with the 1ed lore, so now we have yet another candidate. Did these bandits build this outpost as a fortress/homebase from which to conduct raids and hole up in when "the law" sought to strike back at them? What happened to them? Did they just die out over time without leadership to replace Barroch? Were they ousted by the Tribe of the White Worm?


I've written up what is known about Barroch's Hold, here. On closer look, rather than before dashing off to work, it's not a good match for the Monastery of the Yellow Rose, on account of being filled with monsters rather than monks. It's a neighbouring fortification, most like. As to who Barroch was and when and where he operated, there's a million possibilities.

quote:
Originally posted by VikingLegionIf I can derail even further, in a setting as exhaustively detailed as the Forgotten Realms, I find the amount of apocryphal information to be a bit puzzling. If this is all based on Mr. Greenwood's original notes, why are there any areas of mystery? I can see certain things getting re-arranged, cleaned up, refined, etc to account for some of the discrepancies between edition changes, that's fine. But the outright mysteries like "Who built this?" seem like they should be solvable.

Which brings me back to the original question: Why the mystery? Does Ed purposely keep some things cryptic to stimulate debate? Is it supposed to be vague so that individual readers/DMs can put their own stamp on it?


Well, because it's not all based on Ed Greenwood's notes. There are many other designers and authors who've developed it too, some while looking at the work of others, some without. Errors will slip in. There's no deliberate mystery. The simplestexplanation is that RA Salvatore wrote The Bloodstone Lands in 1989 and suggested the Monastery was built over a thousand years ago, while the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting for 2nd edition came out in 1993 and said it was only built in 1242 DR, and whoever wrote that probably didn't see Salvatore's suggested date. It's in these gaps and discrepancies that we fans build mysteries. Though Ed Greenwood does build in mysteries and hanging plothooks of his own

FWIW, I don't really like asking Ed Greenwood questions unless there's a major unresolvable conflict. For one, I don't want to bother the great man (so many fans ask him so much nonsense). For another, I suspect he works off his own original conception of the Realms rather than that built up collectively with other writers, so asking him just introduces fresh clashes. He's also a man skilled at spinning intriguing lore on cue, so you don't know know if asking a question will produce a lost fact or a brand new fact. But mostly, I'd rather leave the mysteries intact. We can come up with our own solutions and stories.

quote:
Hey BadCatMan,
I posted the above question/speculations in the "Ask Ed" thread, and The Hooded One has already answered thusly:

"Hello again, all.
VikingLegion, the Monastery of the Yellow Rose is NDA (so as not to hamper any storytelling directions Bob Salvatore wants to pursue in future), but I've had a brief chat with Ed and can go so far as to provide the following answers to your questions:
1. Correct. The monks moved into it rather than erecting the buildings in the first place. They have done (minimal) rebuilding and maintenance since.
2. Intriguing concept, yes, but although the monastery has a few soaring halls, it's NOT built for any inhabitants as large as Frost Giants.
3. I think you might be on to something . . .
4. There's something here, too . . .
Ahem. I believe my stint of broad hinting here is done.
love,
THO"


Hmm. In the first response, Greenwood seems to contradict Salvatore's original description of the Monastery: "Each generation of monks adds new structures and digs out deeper chambers." (The Bloodstone Lands, page 41). The third and fourth sound like "sure, why not?" to me, but if you use that as evidence, then it contradicts what he said about Barroch's Hold in the Old Grey Box.

But anyway, it's your Realms and your story. I just wanted to clarify who said what. And don't take my word for it. A PDF of The Bloodstone Lands can be had legally for only US$4.99

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki

Edited by - BadCatMan on 02 Apr 2015 07:07:47
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1588 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  13:18:52  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

Tapyrs, Barastir?!


Tried to think of an exotic animal in European settings, tapyrs are found in Central and South America and Southeastern Asia... Have I ever mentioned I'm a biologist?

EDIT: The correct name, in English and plural form, is "tapirs". I apologize for my mistake.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 02 Apr 2015 13:28:56
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore

USA
1714 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  18:30:58  Show Profile  Visit BEAST's Homepage Send BEAST a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

Tapyrs, Barastir?!


Tried to think of an exotic animal in European settings, tapyrs are found in Central and South America and Southeastern Asia... Have I ever mentioned I'm a biologist?

EDIT: The correct name, in English and plural form, is "tapirs". I apologize for my mistake.


I remember those from flipping through animal pics as a kid! Sort-of like an unarmored rhino body, with a much-shortened elephantine semi-prehensile snout. Shrunk way down from either of those two animals, though.

"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)

<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works">
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1588 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  19:05:07  Show Profile Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's the one, BEAST, as you can see in the hyperlink (click on "tapirs" in the previous message). But let's not derail the topic... And VikingLegion, the Yellow Rose monastery (and martial monks) were in 1e long ago (and I believe they followed Dionysius, back then). MERPS, an RPG based on Middle Earth, also had martial monks. It's fantasy, and it must not follow our world's geography and cultural stereotypes, but I like doing FR my "fantasy earth" version (as if legends from the East exist because there are or were portals linking our eastern countries with Kara-Tur, just as there are legends of goblins in Europe for the same reason). Maybe Faerūn would exist in an alternate dimension, in this take on the Realms...

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 02 Apr 2015 19:07:23
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1965 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2015 :  21:19:07  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lions, Elephants, Rhinos and... Tapirs. I bet they taste like pork. The other white meat.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 02 Apr 2015 21:20:27
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BadCatMan
Senior Scribe

Australia
385 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2015 :  09:12:32  Show Profile Send BadCatMan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BadCatMan

Aha! It wasn't a mix-up after all, or at least not mine. The 2nd-edition campaign setting makes the connection, putting the "Tribe of the White Worm" living in the area of the Glacier of the White Worm. So they are indeed canonically there.

I found a bunch of old notes on the Glacier of the White Worm, and after this discussion, I think I'll write up the wiki article after all. :) Stay tuned. (No promises on when, mind.)


Rather belatedly (I got caught up in another project, but I always come through eventually) and increasingly off-topic (though we discussed them heavily here), I have written up a wiki article on the Tribe of the White Worm who live around the glacier:
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/White_Worm
And a real cold bunch of barbarians they are too.

BadCatMan, B.Sc. (Hons), M.Sc.
Scientific technical editor
Head DM of the Realms of Adventure play-by-post community
Administrator of the Forgotten Realms Wiki
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