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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2015 :  13:40:32  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
As I near the end of my moonshae rewrite I need to finish off my Netheril rewrite.

I've used the major sources like the Netheril boxed set and Lost Empires of Faerun, what I need now are the little random bits of lore strewn across the various sourcebooks and dragon/dungeon/polyhedron mags.

Doesnt matter how small a mention it is, if you come across a Netheril mention in your readings i'd br most appreciative if you could let me know where (page nunbers would helo but arent essential).

Thanks in advance.

EDIT

Here's the link. for what I've done so far

Its all very rough at the moment but its a huge project and I think I might be losing track of all the threads that have been weaved into it, that and I'm running out of time and energy to finish the project but I'm too far on to abandon it.
I tend to get everything down on "paper" first then edit bits out to make it more unreliable narrator like, so all the answers are still in there that I tend to remove but keep written down for me so I know what I was thinking at the time.

Feel free to peruse at your leisure and call me out on any glaring mistakes or suggest some things. I'm trying to turn it into a full fledged campaign setting in its own right (like the Netheril Boxed set should have been), but I need to figure out all the various events and threads from that and then get stuck into the geography and organisations and people etc.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 15 Nov 2015 15:44:53

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2015 :  19:08:19  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Tom Costa's article on Dragon Annual #4, Speaking in Tongues, talk how Netheril, languages, are part of the Ulou group, which includes Ulutiun, Snow Hunter, Rengarth, Angardt, and todays Damaran, and the language of the barbarians of the ride, for example.

The referenced, and quoted book in the 2e Draconomicon, the Book of the World, appears to be written by Netherese, at least the human version of the book, as the only example of it, was found in Asram. So it's possible the Netherese, worshipped a form of Asgorath, that was a syncretic faith of Tiamat, and Asgorath/Io. This is pretty interesting, when combined with the fact Lorass used draconic script.
Draconomicon, site 2.

As I proposed in my Chondathan and Talfir thread, it appears that the Netherese, at least low Netherese, worshipped Shaundakul, Bright Nydra, and Kiputytto. Shaundakul was worshipped in the nearby Myth Branor, has a connection to Bright Nydra, and there is a false aspect of him, among the Bedine, and the Bedine appear to worship Netherese deities. Bright Nydra, is worshipped by Farsea Marsh dwellers, wo are Netherese survivors. Kiputytto and Talona fought over worshippers, in Asram.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 21 Mar 2015 :  21:42:49  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good spot on the language article. I hadnt thought about netherils language much but I reckon I can explain away any wierdness with language and alphabet using English as a basis.

I have the book of the world covered already thanks to elminster presents the forgotten realms. It has nothing to do with gods and a lot to do with ioulaum.

The churches of Netheril will get some page time but not the gods themselves. im using the heretical Netheril boxed set as a basis though. The only original gods are shar selune jannath and the war god, everything else comes later.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 22 Mar 2015 07:29:54
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2015 :  11:52:58  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
looked at the dragon annual. Nice article.

Im gonna have seventons original language be different to netheres and use the draconic alphabet. When seventon subjugates the rengarth their language is gradually merged with the ulou language of the barbarians until netheres is considered an ulou sub language. This happens sometime during the mythallar era I reckon.

The rengarth keep their native language and either already have the thorass alphabet or acquire it later on. They never learn netherese or the draconic alphabet because that is the preserve of the elites of seventon (who arent gonna teach the barbarians to read and write).

When Netheril falls the archmages perish and so does their language. The survivor states use thorass like the barbarians

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2015 :  12:15:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess you'll gona make the Netherese the Gur, or another foregin group. Which has sense, as some sources do describe Netherese as ariving/appearing, with Rengarth, and Ice Hunters, being the aborigal people of the region.

Although my own take, would be making the Seven villages of Seventon, of diffrent Ethnic groups, mostly of Gurs and Rengarth. For example, Gers, and Janik, would be Gur, and others, like Gustaf, and Fenwick, would be of a more civilized Rengarth stock. Gers is obviously Gur in origins, as Gers sounds like Gurs, Janik as it has a Slavic etymology in it's name, Rashemi/Raumviran peoples, to which Gur are related, are semi-Slavic.
Gustaf, and Fenwick, I chosen as Rengarth in origin, as many Rengarth names for places, have a Germanic etymology.

Overtime, the the Gur and civilized Rengarth, mixed ad merged to the point they were one ethnic group, with one language.

Of course, that's just my take on things.

Edited by - Baltas on 22 Mar 2015 12:24:17
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2015 :  12:22:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I wont be stating from where exactly, just far to the east. I have a migration plan worked out but thats just for me.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2015 :  20:51:02  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Where does it say that the Gur have an association with the pre-fall Netherese?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2015 :  10:35:22  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's purely a fan theory Krash. It's inspired from a few canon things though. First that that Gur resemble Rashemi, but are also said to be descended from Netherese. Second, that there was a Guri tribe in the Hordelands, aparently related to the Rashemi, and Raumathari, that gone west, aparetnly far west. Fans, combined those into a theory that the Guri arived in the Netherese basin, and build the Seven Towns there. The Gurs would be decesdants of the Guri/proto-Netherese, that didn't mix with the locals, acording to this theory.
I think Markustay started this theory.

Edited by - Baltas on 23 Mar 2015 10:42:49
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6641 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2015 :  11:07:07  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Races of Faerun pretty much makes that theory difficult if not impossible, but I guess anything goes.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2015 :  15:01:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i can find nothing in RoF that explicitly rules out such a connection, yes the links i am making are tenuous at best but thats part of the fun. Much in RoF is written as "might be", and "thought to be" which leaves room for reinterpretation.

Tom Costa's language article in dragon annual #4 has Gurri as a language from the Imaskari family.

RoF has this
quote:
the Gurs are thought to be primarily of Rashemi descent.
Although they have certainly intermingled with members of
other ethnic groups, they strongly resemble the natives of
Rashemen.


The rashemen are of dusky skin, dark of eye, and with thick black hair.

The Netherese are according to RoF
quote:
by darkhaired,
fair-skinned humans


quote:
Although all Netherese used the Draconic alphabet, the language of Low Netheril, and the commoners of High Netheril was Netherese, while the nobles of High Netheril spoke Loross.


I see nothing that says Netherese cannot be related to peoples from the hordelands area, and because i am looking for it i find a few pieces to support the idea (i forget which famous person said if you look hard enough you can prove anything to be true, even that which is untrue).

Netherese use the draconic alphabet in an area that is or will be dominated by the Thorass alphabet. The draconic alphabet is possibly related to Dethek runes and is predominant in areas that were at one point under the influence of the Imaskari Empire (Roushoum, Shou, Raumvira).

Lantan is also said to use Draconic script and while RoF puts this down to Halruan refugees, Tom Costa's article puts Lantanna in the Imaskari group of languages.



Now the Netherese language itself being in the Ulou language family is not necessarily an indication that the Netherese people are Ice Hunter in origin. In fact the dichotomy of Netheril's civilisation plays right into the idea that Netheril's elite were of a different origin than its lower class (take England and the Norman conquest as a real world example).

So the people of Seventon come originally from the far western borders of the Imaskari Empire at its height (Rashemen/Narfell). They learn the Imaskari/Draconic alphabet from their masters but are gradually pushed out of the area by increasing slavery and new arrivals.

They migrate across the Vast up through the Ride and arrive in a seemingly unspoiled portion of Netheril, following the moon as a guide (Selune's children). The area around Seventon is free of Rengarth barbarians because this was once the heartlands of Sarrukh civilisation and the deeply superstitious Rengarth avoid it, preferring to stay west of the Column of the Sky mountain.

When the people of Seventon subjugate the Rengarth people and bring them into the empire you get a mixing of cultures and languages. The language of Seventon is mixed with the Ulutiun language of the Ice Hunter tribes of the Rengarth to produce Netherese but the illiterate barbarians adopt the Draconic alphabet producing what we know now to be true as far as RoF says. The High Netherese that spoke Loross were simply preserving their old language and kept it the preserve of the ruling elite (like the first few generations of English kings supposedly spoke French even though the rest of the nation were speaking English).

The Rengarth barbarians that refused to integrate into Netheril society kept their Ulou language and remained mostly illiterate and true to their cultural roots.

When Netheril falls, the elite ruling cast flee to Halrua, with a few going elsewhere (and taking the Draconic script with them to Halrua and then Lantan). The lower and middle classes of Netheril along with the true Rengarth barbarians spread northwest, southwest, and east taking with them the Ulou Netherese language but picking up the Thorass alphabet as they encounter other migrants.



Again i dont really see anything that says it did or didnt happen that way.
The history of the Gurs in RoF says
quote:
As fragments of lore dating back to the erection of
the Standing Stone refer to the nomadic Gurs, it is thought that
they fled their ancient homeland during or immediately after
the cataclysmic battle between Raumathar and Narfell.


It is only thought they fled following the battle between Raumathar and Narfell, it could easily have been the climactic fall of Netheril.

quote:
Speakers of an ancient dialect of Rashemi among themselves,
the honor-obsessed Gurs employ the Thorass alphabet and speak
Chondathan with non-Gurs.


Ancient Rashemi is of course Raumviran which as a minor flaw is not Imaskari, however in the period of migration i propose it begins around -5000 DR when the Raumvirans settle in Rashemen and force out the tribal nomads living there. It of course is not a 1 year event but takes many centuries, more than enough for the precursor people of Seventon to mix their own language with Raumviran to produce a dialect of it before finally moving on a great migration west.

Indeed the Horde boxed set indicates the Raumathar Empire heavily influence the Imaskari languages of the northern tribes so it is not unprecedented that these languages have mixed.



Thats why i like the realms 3e and 2e books, everthing is always "believed so", "thought to be", etc. Gives me plenty of room to mess around with things, and at the end of the day i'm doing a reinvention so i am taking a few liberties with canon. But even mine will still be heresay and conjecture. They will be a tribe of horsemen from the east following the moon to the promised land.

The reader can make of that what they will.

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 23 Mar 2015 15:03:48
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2015 :  15:01:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now does anyone have anymore mentions of Netheril in various sourcebooks, pretty please.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
955 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2015 :  18:42:23  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, as I mentioned on the Chondathan and Talfir thread, there might be connection between spellweavers of Chult, and Netheril:
quote:


From Dungeon 150 web enhachment

In truth, Jergal is an alien god, brought
to the Realms millennia ago by a pod of
spellweavers who settled in the region now
known as the Chultengar, located in the
easternmost reaches of the of the Jungle of
Chult. It is believed that one of the earliest
Netherese archwizards studied necromancy
with the spellweavers of the Chultengar before
returning to Netheril, and that he founded the
church of Jergal upon his return.




Although Krash wrote that the bit with Jergal originating in Chultengar, is only probably canonical in this adventure, the idea that Netherese learned magic also from spellweavers, is interesting.

[EDIT]

Also, the Vestige Amon, from the Tome of Magic is written be viable to be substituted with Amuanator in Realms. Amon very hates four other vestiges, Chupoclops, Eurynome, Karsus, and Leraje.
Amon is also pretty similar to Amuanator, in that he was a god of sun and law, that died of lack of worship, among things.

I wonder if Chupoclops, Eurynome, or Leraje were enemies of Netheril at a time. As Eurynome and Leraje are both said to have died in prehistoric times, this leaves Chupoclops. Chupoclops is said to be peer of Fenris/Kezef, and Dendar the Night Serpent, and was said to slain by a company of seven - 3 heroes, 4 villians. Maybe those seven were Netherese, and Chupoclops done some serious damage to Netheril?

Edited by - Baltas on 23 Mar 2015 19:26:40
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2015 :  16:50:46  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well here's my first find, starting at the beginning.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide - Page 37, 56
Anauroch - Page 3, 4, 7, 8, 32, 63, 64, 68, 69, 70, 73
Cloak and Dagger - Page 85, 98
Cormanthyr - Page 13, 15, 23, 24, 27, 99, 124, 135, 137, 158, 159
Demihuman Deities - Page 166, 190
Drizzts Guide to the Underdark - Page 27, 31, 32, 53, 61, 67, 72, 73, 74, 96
Dwarves Deep - Page 52
Faiths and Avatars - Page 27, 28, 29, 152
Menzoberranzan - Page 94
Prayers from the Faithful - Page - 33, 49
Sea of Fallen Stars - Page 20, 67, 147, 151
Skullport - Page 5, 6, 17, 21, 88, 93
Spellbound 106

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2015 :  17:34:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

It's purely a fan theory Krash. It's inspired from a few canon things though. First that that Gur resemble Rashemi, but are also said to be descended from Netherese. Second, that there was a Guri tribe in the Hordelands, aparently related to the Rashemi, and Raumathari, that gone west, aparetnly far west. Fans, combined those into a theory that the Guri arived in the Netherese basin, and build the Seven Towns there. The Gurs would be decesdants of the Guri/proto-Netherese, that didn't mix with the locals, acording to this theory.
I think Markustay started this theory.
Actually, I think it was Lord Karsus that gave me the initial inspiration for that theory, because there was some reference to the Gur and the early (Seventon) Netherese. I recall someone giving me the reference once, and I checked it (so it existed), but I haven't been able to find it since, nor do I remember any of the particulars (could have been as simple as a town having the same name). The theory just snowballed after that, especially when I started working on the Hordelands material and realized how nicely the Finnish material fit in there...

Which brings me to my point. I don't have one theory - I have MANY theories, but they are all linked to an over-arching theory, so it all ties together nicely. Sometimes, when you look at just one piece of it, you can't understand why I did something, but when you step back and see the big picture, it all makes much better sense. The Tom Costa article is very helpful here as well - you see, I think the Finnish myths actually TOOK PLACE ON TORIL (!), and the proto-Finnish people actually emigrated FROM FR, not the other way around (and I just like that so much better then FR getting everything from elsewhere - about time to turn the tables). Thus, any similarities in language and/or culture can be traced from a time when that cross-pollination between worlds was more prevalent. What this all means is that the Finnish pantheon is NATIVE to FR, NOT interlopers. The fact that the language article spreads the language across the north of the eastern heartlands and then on into the Unapproachable East suggests that Tom Costa also felt the language and people took that migrational arc.

It also fits in with a lot of the Hordelands history - there is far more of it then just what is in The Horde product. Horselords goes into quite a bit of it (there was at least one non-human empire that took control at some point - they are described as 'bestial' or even 'demonic'). This shoe-horns nicely with the Finnish Pohjola, and its hag-queen (note the predominance of Hags around Yal Tengri, the great Ice sea, including in the prologue of Mark Sehestedt's novel Frostfell).

I don't just look at The North - I look at the planet... and beyond. Each piece of the puzzle leads to other pieces, and we have to try and get them all to fit together. History doesn't occur in localized bubbles, which is a big downfall of regional splatbooks.

The races book is one of my least favorite, and YES, because it goes against a lot of what I figured out on my own, but it IS canon, so we have to try and make the pieces fit together somehow. When all else fails, I fall back on the Ed-ness of the setting - its all just inaccurate reporting and told by people who's opinion were tainted on purpose or by bad research (which happens RW all the time - theories change constantly about certain parts of history). Look at it this way - each 'fact' contains a grain of truth, but not the whole truth. When the 'Netherese' arrived in Anauroch, there were probably other (hunter-gatherer) tribes living there. Our modern-day concept of what it is to be 'Netherese' may be very different then how it was originally, and the ethnic group would be greatly changed over thousands upon thousands of years of mixing with other cultures and peoples. So, Gur may have settled along the Narrow Sea, but they wouldn't be the same people we know of as Netherese now, who may be predominantly (ethnically) Talfir, or Mir, or what have you. Yes, just like the Hellenistic culture built by Alexander (who didn't really die... he just retired to The Realms).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2015 17:41:57
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2015 :  19:47:08  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally I don't see any incompatibilities between RoF and other sources since its all presented as a maybe which is my favourite word in the whole English language.

I don't even think the Netherese for me are Gur, they are just similar and from the same area. People tend to do migration in waves so Netherese came first, Gur came later.

But the best thing about having them come from the Hordelands is that that area has no gods, no pantheons, nothing divine. They worship animals or place spirits. That means I'm free to come up with an origin for all the Netherese deities without having to worry about any deity nonsense.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2015 :  20:34:15  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now on to some of the quotes from the sourcebooks. Quite a few interesting ones.

quote:
Rings of Farscrying: Two of these potent magic items were plundered from the detritus of a Netherese flying city that crashed into the Trackless Sea amid the islands of the Korinn Archipelago in the Year of Sundered Webs (-339 DR).


That will prove useful for my Moonshae rewrite


quote:
Fhaor .Akh .Tel.Quess/ .Tribute of One.s Duty to the People.: This ceremony allows an elf of any age or health to sacrifice his or her life and normal existence in order to better serve the clan or community in a different form. This ritual severs the elf.s ties with the Call to Arvandor, but the duty and the powers of its new form prevent the elf from descending into madness; now, the Call is replaced by the Duty the form gives him.
Elves can become undead baelnorn, or Reverend Ones, in which their duty is guardianship of things, places, or people. They can also be transformed into tree spirits (choice of form as dryad, hamadryad, satyr, or treant), in which their duty is the guardianship of the trees and to act as advisers of Elven court.
This transformational ritual alters the elf.s dying form into a different state, not quite undead but not alive in the conventional sense for an elf. Transformed thus, the elf.s body is either changed into its new form or the body dies and the spirit then inhabits the new form, and the body is then interred as a special part of the closing ritual. This is one of the greatest sacrifices an elf can make for his community or clan, and thus those who undergo it are accorded the highest honors both before and after the ritual.
DM.s Note: Even at this height of elven civilization, a major part of this ritual has been lost. In times past, elves also could be transformed into weave spirits, beings of pure magic who help maintain mythals and spell fields and guard against abuses in magic. High Mages now theorize that the last Weave Spirit was created during Netheril.s rise, and the last High Mage who knew the casting was slain by an archwizard. While there is no proof, some High Mages wonder if such beings as will.o.wisps, nyth, and wizshades are not elven weave spirits gone mad or degenerated into corrupt forms due to the damage to the Weave with the Fall of Netheril.


I wonder if the last weave spirit wasn't that previously unknown but great wizard of Netheril that Ed details in Elminster's Forgotten Realms (who may also be the Grey Lady in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical).


quote:
A High Mage could summon destructive power equivalent to that which created the High Moor. The ritual is known as Mormhaor.Sykerylor/ .The Killing Storm.. Most elves refer to this High Magic Ritual of Myriad as .Miyeritar.s Bane.. The High Moor is enough mute evidence to illustrate that this magic is not to be summoned ever again. In fact, the elves scrupulously pay attention to the talk of wizards in Faerűn; when even a hint has emerged of a mage considering a killing storm, that mage has been dead within a tenday and his books and notes of such magic destroyed irrevocably. (This assassination scenario happened seven times during the time of Netheril alone.)


It would seem that there were a lot of assassinations in Netheril, which is handy because I have that a lot in mine.

quote:
After 1d20 years without the attentions of Tyvollus, the metals will separate into the Nether Scrolls once again.


Looks like those Nether Scrolls pounded into lump metal would have restored themselves within 20 years.



quote:
Ooltul is a vague legend in the Moonsea and Dalelands region, but it was once home to a large number of Anaurian Hive beholders. Ooltul was the easternmost city of Xun.Qoroth, a beholder nation whose territory encompassed the deep tunnels west of the Desertsmouth Mountains beneath the Netherese survivor state of Anauria.


I wonder why the beholders never troubled Anauria (or maybe they did but subtly) and how come they never came into conflict with the Xraunrarr in the Stonelands.





quote:
libram entitled Mhuelosiun Mantles has recently been offered for sale in the markets of Ooltul. This legendary spell tome was penned in the years leading up to the Crown vs. Scepter Wars between Hlondath and Cormanthyr by the Mage Royal of Mhaelos, and is said to set out the process for creating one or more of the legendary spell mantles for which the Netherese arcanists were so famous.


I really need to figure out exactly what a Netherese mantle is. Time to ask George I think (is it a ward, isn't it, how do they differ and why).


quote:
The tales you might have heard are true.these monsters really do eat the brains of other creatures. I had heard they regard humans as humans might in turn regard their goats. This, however, is not true, at least not in the case of Anauroch mind flayers. They are cautious, and actually overestimate their enemies (again, they differ from beholders in this respect). They do not attack unless they are sure they can win.
I believe the mind flayers. extreme respect for human powers comes not from the sparse confrontations with Bedine and ulugarr adventurers of the current Anauroch. Though I value my own worth in fighting highly, I have seen too much of the world to imagine that I am among the most fearsome creatures in it. I think perhaps the mind flayers are recalling far earlier contacts with the Netherese, that race of powerful sorcerers who once lived in what is now the Great Desert.


A mindflayer hive mind beneath Netheril is interesting, must have been before the phaerimm re-emerged.


quote:
omewhere beneath one of the darker, racier nightclubs of the city lies the lost crypt of the Wondermen, a lost, long-ago society of mages, perhaps from lost Netheril, who explored the extremes of human magic of their day.
Local lore holds that several of the Wondermen, now liches, guard the crypt, which is full of dancing ioun stones, wands, rods, and stranger treasures, including a huge crystal sphere containing an .eater of magic,. a cloudlike creature that, if released, the legends whisper, will devour all the magic in the world, leaving the Realms bereft of all spells and their effects. (This creature is a Nishruu. A close relative of it, a Hakeashar, appears in *FRE1.)


Did the enemies of Netheril trap this creature to deliver it later. Did the mages of Netheril trap it to try and tap its power. Did they trap it to save themselves and then it was taken to Scornubel, or was it deliberately stored in Scornubel to keep it hidden (not that Scornubel existed then).



quote:
Many wizards from Netheril escaped into wonder form when their kingdom fell, using a spell later (and independently) duplicated by drow mages; the wonderform spell included elsewhere in this book. Such transformed folk can speak normally, and work magic, while in wonder-shape, and escape from wonderform at will. As the being.s mind is completely shielded from contact, and the wonderform spell masks its true alignment aura with a .normal. wonder.s alignment, this can be a very effective hidingplace from a foe who is able to probe disguises readily.


Wonderform is basically an egg with legs. I wonder if this was not a cruel joke of the elves who gave them a variant of the ritual that turns elves into weave whispers.


Prayers from the faithful details at least three, possibly for deific artefacts created during the time of Netheril. Gorothir's Girdle (Shar), Leaves of Green (Silvanus I think but I might be tempted to change it to Jannath - it can be rededicated later), the Moonweb (Selune) and that flaming tear belonging to Tymora (well Tyche at the time). Interestingly enough the Nature Elemental is also from Netheril (again it says Silvanus but I think Jannath is more appropriate for Netheril).






quote:
The Promenade encompasses an isolated quarter of the original Sargauth Enclave that was separated from the cavern of Skullport during the cataclysm that destroyed the Netherese outpost centuries ago.


Looks like the Netherese and possibly the fall of Netheril resulted in Ghaunadaur's involvement with the Promenade.



quote:
Centuries ago, the wizard Larloch, sorcererking of Netheril, created a powerful artifact with which he intended to control the minds of his court, reveal his enemies. plans, and summon powerful beings from the Outer Planes. The artifact served him well, and he ruled for many years, eventually becoming a powerful lich.


This was about the Death Moon Orb. The bit about him controlling the court is interesting to me. Was Larloch in control of one or more members of the ruling council of Netheril. Was Karsus' madness more a manifestation of Larloch attempting to magically control him. Did Ioulaum flee Netheril because Larloch was making his move at last. Did Larloch flee to Narfell (instead of being sent their on research) because the other archwizards discovered his control - maybe Rhaulgilath exposed him (that would be ironic).


quote:
The Bright Sword is real. It is called Beirmoura and was forged long ago by a wizard who sought to defeat the rising kingdom of Netheril by creating a series of wizard-slaying swords.


quote:
The Ghost Sword - In the waning, decadent days of Netheril, a peculiar (for his people) sorcerer named Twyluth Ornadyn hit upon the idea that the salvation of the Netherese lay in turning their magical skills and lives back to living in harmony with nature and other living things. Ornadyn foresaw the need for battle magic to safeguard the survival of the Netherese as they learned the ways of all life, and he envisaged an armory of enchanted blades whose wielders could communicate with each other over long distances through meditation and
the blades. transmission of mental images and audible speech.


Two powerful magical blades, possibly made by the same guy who may have influenced Anauria's blade work.


quote:
Cloaktower: At the spot where the Neverwinter River flows into the city stands the Cloaktower. This is the meeting place and citadel of the Many-Starred Cloak. Among the treasures known to reside within this warded and trapped seat of power is a wondrous magical device found in a Netherese ruin: Halavar.s Universal Pantograph. It reputedly can make two coins from one, or two swords where there was only one before.



If Halavar's Universal Pantograph was in Neverwinter then it means it was aboard Xinlenal and so Ioulaum stole it.




There are so many more weird and wonderful bits about Netheril. I even have an idea of how Netheril managed to rip the spells from the rulers of Thaeravel, without a battle taking place. There is a spell called "Spell Webs" which is based on an ancient Netherese spell of a similar name that allows the caster to steal spells from whoever triggers the spell (which appears as a rune like a word of power I think).

So the Netherese pay a visit to Thaeravel - purely diplomatic. While they are there they show off their skills to the Thaeravellians to encourage a trade in magic and at the same time fill the entire government building with these spell webs. Once they leave the web activates and rips all knowledge out of Thaeravel in an instant.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
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Posted - 25 Mar 2015 :  00:43:08  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My take on Netherese mantles can be found in my thread in the Chamber of Sages. It's set up for 3E epic magic but could conceivably be tweaked to reflect 4E or 5E ritual magic (but would neeed a ton of work to do so). The "Mantle" spell in "Secrets of the Magister" is a broken bit of magic - crazy powerful.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
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Posted - 25 Mar 2015 :  14:36:40  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also Krash, you posted a interesting bit of lore, that may interest dazzlerdar, in the The arrival of the Rus thread:

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The original human settlement of Illusk would have been Ice Hunter humans who venerated the arakhor as a god, Jeriah Chronos took an interest in the place because of Maegera and was looking to control the arakhor and the primordial when the orcs came and blitzed the place. The arrival of the next lot Netherese after Karsus' Folly would have been prompted by Melathlar coming across a lore trove of Jeriah and finding out about Maegera. They would have travelled to Illusk to seek to control the arakhor and Maegera as a weapon against the phaerimm leading to the arakhor becoming petrified (i.e. becoming a stone tree) and Maegera being let loose until the elves of Iliyanbruen brought it under control again at the site of present-day Gauntlgrym. The destruction wreaked by Maegera through the Neverwinter woodlands would have been the cause of the enmity between Illusk and the elves of Ilianbruyen, leading to the war between them.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 25 Mar 2015 :  20:35:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So a mantle is a personal protective shield, while a ward is a protection laid upon a location.

Looks like a mantle can be set to guard against particular spells or all spells of a particular level, and I would imagine the most advanced mantles could have contingency like effects in the case of being struck by particular spells.

I did note that Laummas the liegelord (and lich) of Hlondath who took part in the attack on Myth Drannor briefly (the battle in which he died was noted as the last sceptre war by Hlondath (although I'm pretty sure Hlondath was long dead by that time and they never really liked magic so I can't imagine they would be happy being ruled by a lich, perhaps he secretly manipulated the rulers of Hlondath. He also possessed the mantle stone of Vhyridian (vhyridian being a half elf and so could be a native of one of the survivor states or Cormanthyr since Mhaelos the capital of Hlondath is noted for its mantle magic and the elves taught the netherese about mantles).




Came across lots of little bits of lore as well. Tons of archwizards noted and many of them lived long past the end of Netheril. Archwizard is the term given to the rulers of Netheril (who in canon Netheril owned an enclave) therefore many of these archwizards must have ceded control of their enclaves to other "lesser" wizards and fleeing the country.

This is kind of supported in canon since it is stated in several sources that the wizards of Netheril fled the country and abandoned it to its fate. Archwizards like Raumark (Halrua) and presumably others. So maybe the smartest and least corrupt/decadent recognised Netheril was doomed and so did a runner.



Also Shradin Mulophor (Skullport) is stated as being a necromancer and survivor of Netheril. He was so skilled he impressed and befriended Halaster. I wonder if Shradin isn't an apprentice or relative of Aumvor. I realise that Aumvor's writeup states his only living relative is Morasha of the Lonely Moor, but technically that is still true if Shradin is his relative because Shradin was killed by the skulls and is now a clone of himself.


It looks like the outer reaches of Netheril (Everything between the Nether Mountains and the Sword Coast) were the preserve of lesser arcanists who were not powerful enough to set up their own enclaves, but still really powerful in modern terms. Many of these may have been sponsored by archwizards or they were apprentices to archwizards.



And I noted that Netheril disliked sorcerers because of its association with Thaeravel. That got me thinking about sorcerers and their past association with draconic bloodlines. Then in the Elminsters Ecologies books there is a legend about the stonelands and the appearance of Behir which states in ages past when the stonelands were "full", there was a blue dragon of immense power (sounds like a dragon lord) that plagued local communities and was slain by a god that amalgamated a number of creatures and dragon scales into hundreds of Behir that slew the dragon. Now the legend is hogwash but there is a history of powerful blue dragons in the Netheril region so maybe Thaeravel was once a vassal realm to dragons which then emancipated itself.


Oh and Crown of the Mountain must have fashioned the Low Road.


And one last thought. The Netherese created Svirfneblin. The Netherese claim they created gnomes to perfect a slave race but that cannot be true because gnomes existed before Netheril. However svirfneblin are concentrated in the north and regions surrounding Netheril (Blingdenstone was founded by svirfneblin that migrated from the caverns beneath Netheril). There is a gnomish burial rite that dates from Netherese times which involves the gnome being entombed in a mud sarcophagus which is then enspelled. Finally the spriggans appear from gnome groups that escaped Netheril (Trielta Hills and another place).

So what if the Netherese experimented upon the gnomes resulting in the svirfneblin that promptly escaped. The spriggans could be failed results of the experiments that remains as a recessive trait in modern day gnomes.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 26 Mar 2015 :  01:12:11  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Also Krash, you posted a interesting bit of lore, that may interest dazzlerdar, in the The arrival of the Rus thread:

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The original human settlement of Illusk would have been Ice Hunter humans who venerated the arakhor as a god, Jeriah Chronos took an interest in the place because of Maegera and was looking to control the arakhor and the primordial when the orcs came and blitzed the place. The arrival of the next lot Netherese after Karsus' Folly would have been prompted by Melathlar coming across a lore trove of Jeriah and finding out about Maegera. They would have travelled to Illusk to seek to control the arakhor and Maegera as a weapon against the phaerimm leading to the arakhor becoming petrified (i.e. becoming a stone tree) and Maegera being let loose until the elves of Iliyanbruen brought it under control again at the site of present-day Gauntlgrym. The destruction wreaked by Maegera through the Neverwinter woodlands would have been the cause of the enmity between Illusk and the elves of Ilianbruyen, leading to the war between them.






I've provided a slightly different version of this on Ed's page at The EdVerse. It's a story and so "not canon". It's not specifically about humans, but focused more on the dwarves. Check it out.

Properly sorting out Illusk remains a work in progress given Salvatore's scribblings and the Neverwinter focus in 4E. Not to mention a few throw away lines in (I think) the 3E Lords of Darkness accessory (it might have been Magic of Faerun though - I know it was one of the softcover 3E products).

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 26 Mar 2015 01:28:32
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 26 Mar 2015 :  09:36:01  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well George i wouldnt blame you for abandoning Salvatore's scribblings as incorrect (unreliable narrator and all that). Gauntlgrym exists in only one place for me and its not where the novels have placed it.

I didnt even know there was a problem with Illusk's history apart from the weirdness around who was in charge of the Arcane Brotherhood and when.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 26 May 2015 :  19:15:11  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well thanks to George's excellent writeup about Jergal that solves all the mysteries of Netheril that I couldn't think of an answer for, I'm going to focus back on my alternate rewrite of Netheril.

I'll be doing write-ups of the locations, places, people, politics etc that are sorted by era. So we have the Nether Age, the Mythallar Age, the Silver Age, the Golden Age, the Shadowed Age, and the Survivor Age (focusing on the survivor states)

And first of all I'll be changing the name of Netheril to the Alliance of Seventon, then Seventon, then the Empire of Seventon. Netheryl is the name of the geographic basin that was home to the greatest concentration of Netheril's might. the Empire of Netheril as a name only came about in the last few months before it's fall.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 26 May 2015 :  19:36:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Latest quotes from the Mintiper's Chapbook articles.


quote:
It is theoretically possible to contact the trapped sentiences within the Tree of Wailing Souls, although any such communication will be tinged with the taint of madness and hindered by fragmentary recollection. Such communication might be established by means of psionic or magical telepathy or by necromantic variants of the tongues spell. As severing a head effectively "kills" the communication channel with the trapped sentience until the tree manifests chooses to manifest the being’s head once again, all such communication must take place on the slopes of Turlangtor while simultaneously battling the Tree of Wailing Souls. If such communication is ever attempted, some of the spirits that might be reached include King Connar V, one of Ammarindar’s later dwarven monarchs, Neldarnoth the Thrice-Cursed, a Netherese refugee who became one of the most admired Ascalhi archmages ere his disappearance,


Might be nothing but there is a name of a possible survivor of Netheril, although refugee could just be a general term given to people descended from those who survived Netheril's fall.



quote:
Founded ere the rise of Netheril, Glaurachyndaar was a small city in eastern Eaerlann near the confluence of the River Aulantrar (Deepingstream) and the River Starsilver, well known for its school of elven wizardry. After the Fall of Netheril, the High Mages of Glaurachyndaar joined the ruling council of Ascalhorn in advocating the reeducation of Netheril’s surviving arcanists in the ways of elven magic. Over the course of the next eight centuries, the elven mages of Glaurachyndaar worked closely with the Netherese refugees who settled in Ascalhorn, making the City of Scrolls an ideal candidate to emulate the example of Myth Drannor.


Something for the Survivor Age


quote:
The Trail of Mists is a little-known means of magical travel akin to a series gate [1] and believed to date back to the height of Netheril and Eaerlann. [2] Created by gnome illusionists [3] working in concert with Eaerlanni High Mages, the Trail of Mists served originally as a means of magical transport by which gnomes who had escaped enslavement by the Netherese could move about the northern and eastern High Forest without fear of being recaptured. [4] The Trail of Mists linked several score elven garrisons on the Eaerlanni-Netherese border with an elven fortress in the heart of Eaerlann since rebuilt as the Citadel of Mists. [5] From there the Trail of Mists led further south and west, enabling gnomes to safely flee far from their former masters. [6]


quote:
As the Uthgardt are said to be well-versed in the art of navigating by the stars of the northern heavens, which they commonly refer to by dialectic derivatives of the names that their Netherese forbears learned from the elves of Eaerlann as they fled the destruction of Netheril, "Lunargent" undoubtedly introduced this confusing clue so that only the Sons of Uthgar could hope to find the Grandfather Tree.



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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  04:58:04  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well thanks to George's excellent writeup about Jergal that solves all the mysteries of Netheril that I couldn't think of an answer for, I'm going to focus back on my alternate rewrite of Netheril.



It wasn't intended to be gospel, but rather to spark debate and discussion.

I'm rather amazed that no one has jumped on me for creating a third set of the Nether Scrolls and morphing them into the Imarskana.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  06:55:29  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well George I'm sure there are many here that do regard your work as gospel (me included).

I loved the piece, it explained so much, added so much more, and invalidated nothing from what I can see (all the hallmarks of a great piece of lore).

The only bit I am unsure of at the moment is why Jergal started messing around with the Imaskari, but that may be the nature of spell weavers (I know nothing about them).

I like the Nether Scrolls as the Imaskarcana, both are repositories of a sort (one of magic, the other of knowledge) and it explains why the third set was never found (if anyone else had tampered with them I'd expect them to have reverted back to scroll format by now), and also helps to explain Imaskar's common mastery of magic.

All in all great work.

Don't worry though, I will be analysing it in depth as part of my Netheril work. Elah Nydra is a personal favourite of mine, excellent idea, and can be nicely woven into what Elahzad is actually for.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  08:45:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found this about automatons in "The Gem in the Wall" article

quote:
Gem Spiders: Although these creatures are neither gems nor spiders, they resemble astonishingly large (the size of a human head, or even bigger) faceted gemstones attached to eight spiderlike legs upon which they scuttle about. As a result, they have always been called "gem spiders."

What they are in truth are automatons; the animated, semi-intelligent results of special variant stasis spells cast upon dragon eggs. Sages of arcane lore say the magic protects the eggs against all but the most ferocious extremes of heat and cold, and against most blows and crushing weights.

Gem spiders don't attack anything, or breathe, or do anything much except remain immobile for long periods, then they hurriedly move away from lights, sounds, and movements, always seeking dark concealment and immobility. Since such objects were often hidden by their creators (certain Netherese archwizards, and more recent arcane spellcasters who inherited or found the writings of the Netherese mages) in recesses behind walls, they have become confused in legend with other sorts of gems in walls, and in rare instances they have been found with them.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  08:51:12  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found this with a mention of a Netherese Archwizard in the "Mistnetters of the Swamps" article.

quote:
A wizard who's taken to calling himself Maskalar Waterdragon (but who formerly acquired an unsavory reputation in Amn and various Inner Sea ports under several other names, including Alkandor Ilhorn and Surdran Wraethjack) recently came to public attention in Scornubel while selling "power gauntlets of lost Netheril." These are single gloves fashioned so skillfully of forgotten alloys that resemble electrum that they're almost as supple as well-worn leather. Anyone who wears one—not just someone skilled in the Art—can call on the gauntlet's powers: spell-like effects fired as rays or beams from the fingertips of the gloves, one discharge per digit every seven hours. These powers include magic identical to (or closely resembling) tearing claws, blinding bolt, lightning daggers, gripping chains, and ball lightning.

Waterdragon claims to have recovered many such gloves from a sunken Netherese wizard's tower that he describes as having the shape of a spindle, "with spires both above and below," that has lain under "a remote part of" the Vast Swamp in eastern Cormyr "since the fall of Netheril." He says he kept the best gauntlets for himself, and this claim was borne out when he was attacked by three mages at once—and bested them by unleashing volleys of triple fireballs followed by forked lightning bolts. Waterdragon has said that he knows where other ancient treasures lie underwater, still guarded by "things I dare not face."

In the Wizards Reach, a mage from Chessenta named Alamandur Rorskorn warns that drowned Ulsklar, a Netherese archmage who has slept in stasis underwater "for an age, and more" in his sunken citadel, was recently awakened by "overbold" wizards who sought to plunder Ulsklar's home, and is "taking a fell interest in wizards who now hold power in the lands, and think themselves mighty—and are mistaken."

The wizards who roused him, Rorskorn says, deserve whatever fell doom Ulsklar visits upon them, because they made what the Chessentan calls "the reckless fool's mistake." They killed the mistnetters they'd employed to help them clear the way to Ulsklar's citadel.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  09:57:49  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some history for a Netherese mage (note it doesnt say Archwizard) located in Perilous Gateways, the Isle of Prespur Portal.

quote:
The Isle of Prespur, located in the Sea of Fallen Stars, is not often visited. It has only one possible harbor, and no real cover. It was originally the private estate of a mage of great power named Prespur, and on it he built a castle. Prespur, a Netheril mage, studied and researched magic there in seclusion. It was his retreat when magic went afoul in Netheril, and his place of safety when Netheril fell. With his death, the island remained uninhabited for many years.



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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  10:02:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Located in Perilous Gateways The High Ice about a giant empire spanning the High Ice, the Great Glacier and the Sea of Moving Ice, also involving Netheril.


quote:
Before recorded history began, a city stood in this cavern, its spires rising gently from the cavern floor like what were then young stalagmites. Its smooth crystalline walls morphed with the icy stone, forming one surface. It fell to an army led by Netherese arcanists, and the army utterly annihilated every trace of its structures -- not even ashes remained. Later Netherese inhabitants were mystified by seven smooth blue columns that seemed to grow like persistent weeds from the cavern floor, returning despite every attempt to erase their presence. Even now, long after Netheril fell and its scattered colonies were abandoned to the great desert, seven blue columns still stand as mute testament to the first inhabitants of this nameless cavern.

The portal under the High Ice seems to have chosen a guardian over the years just like the western portal has. Ancient legends speak of a madness that consumed the Netherese colony in this cavern, and more recent adventurer's tales suggest that Icindallix, the red dragon who laired here, was eccentric beyond her choice of habitat. It is possible that all this madness stems from the presence of the portal, which whispers in the dark to those it chooses to protect it. Now one inhabitant lives in the cavern, and that one is the portal's chosen protector: the half-remorhaz Red Worm.



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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  10:05:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Another mention in Perilous Gateways, Cavern in the High Ice.

quote:
Buried deeper still in glacial ice is an artifact that dates from the time of the phaerimm and the fall of Netheril. Zzarka's initial tests showed the thing to be a powerful repository of the life drain magic with which the phaerimm planned to obliterate the world. She coveted the artifact for herself, but she feared that it might become unstable if she used magic to excavate it. Therefore, Zzarka set a crew of zombies to the task of digging it out of the ice. The work is slow, but zombies are patient creatures. A century later they are probably still there, digging . . .

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 27 May 2015 :  10:08:18  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Something about Andalbruin and Baphitaurs in Perilous Gateways - The Labyrinth

quote:
Baphitaurs are castoff experiments of Netherese wizards who operate in another dwarf-built hall, the keep of Andalbruin, now known as the Dungeon of the Ruins (see the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 294). Apparently created by merging minotaurs, humans, and the same bull-headed demons who allied with the dwarves, the baphitaurs fled their creators at Andalbruin and eventually gravitated to the one place in Faerűn they could truly feel at home: the Labyrinth.


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