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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 22:50:59
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I have never been a fan of Elminster and I think he is overused and contains a little too much "plot power" for my liking.
I would rather him by this wise ass sage who knows a whole lot but doesn't wield the kind of power he does. In my opinion, he is just a little too cheesy for my tastes. I just really hate when his power gets increased in order to deal with other super powers. I don't think Elminster could have taken Telamont Tanthul to be honest but in order to tell the story, he was killed.
And then Shade falls and crashes into Myth Drannor destroying both cities. I mean come on!
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“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 23:14:30
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I have no desire at all to see him limited in power.
Rather, I'd prefer to see the focus on him limited. Let him retain his power, skill, and knowledge -- just stop putting him in the limelight so oft. Let him go back to being the background character Ed intended him to be.
And that applies to a lot of NPCs, powerful and otherwise: stop putting the focus on them to the exclusion of all else.
I, personally, am glad to see the end of Telamont and the city of Shade. They were so cheesy my cholesterol went up several points every time they were mentioned. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 23:45:40
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| Ed himself only made him as powerful as he is to be a foil for his PCs being lazy. It was TSR who placed so much emphasis on his plot-influencing ability. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2015 : 23:50:52
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| I like Elminster as he is, if used sparingly. However, I'm now more interested in seeing how Amarune Whitewave develops as his heir-apparent. If he gently fades into the background (most of the time) in semi-retirement, that would be OK with me. After all, in many recent novels it has been repeatedly mentioned how tired he is. |
Edited by - BenN on 23 Feb 2015 23:51:49 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 00:01:28
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| I like how powerful Elminster is. As for his limelight, I like reading those novels. EAch their own though |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 00:05:37
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Methinks the OP bought the propaganda of "the Princes of Shade are all powerful."
While they were portrayed that way in prose, their actual accomplishments, if one stands back and looks at them, make them seem lazy, arrogant, and pretty ineffectual.
Flying city, arcanists who can "take" any opponent, but they always needed lackeys to fight for them and they did surprisingly badly against foes they supposedly could have defeated in an afternoon.
Whereas Ed (creator of the Realms, remember) has been portraying Elminster for years as a battered old bluffer who uses the Weave and sometimes psionics to get himself out of scrapes he couldn't win on a spell-versus-spell showdown. He always has something up his sleeve, and doesn't move into a fight until he thinks he can win.
In the case of Telamont, he got himself into the classic "overextended, on too many fronts, and underestimating his opponents" problem. Remember, he fully believed he could just teleport away when things went wrong - - El just pinned him in place, in the middle of the big crash, for the crucial few seconds.
People who dislike the character of Elminster tend to cry that he's Ed's Mary Sue, and at the same time conveniently forget that Ed created most of the characters, places, concepts, and artifacts in the Realms, some of which can and have defeated Elminster or been shown to be more powerful than him.
I fully agree Elminster is overused, and Ed thinks so, too, but his contracts stipulate he has to write (you guessed it) Elminster novels. Ed's caught in the classic work-for-hire problem writers face, when the publisher wants the same thing over and over again.
I think it's a credit to Ed that rather than give in and make Elminster a shining-jawed, perfect does-no-wrong hero, his recent books have shown El really being put through the wringer.
If a reader's estimation of the relative powers of characters differs from the author's, that may mean that or another author has done a poor/misleading job of portraying the characters, but it DOESN'T mean the author is "wrong." It usually means the author is revealing more about the characters than we knew before. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 01:01:03
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I wouldn't use how Telamont was portrayed in The Herald as proof of his incompetence.
One of the objectives of The Sundering was to wipe out Shade, and accordingly, they were made to be bumbling idiots in The Herald. Telamont really felt out of character when compared to how he was portrayed in the Return of the Archwizards arc and the Cale stories.
EDIT: Though to be fair, villains in Ed's books (or at least the 15ish that I have read) tend to be portrayed as incompetent. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 24 Feb 2015 01:16:22 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 01:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have no desire at all to see him limited in power.
Rather, I'd prefer to see the focus on him limited. Let him retain his power, skill, and knowledge -- just stop putting him in the limelight so oft. Let him go back to being the background character Ed intended him to be.
And that applies to a lot of NPCs, powerful and otherwise: stop putting the focus on them to the exclusion of all else.
This echos my feelings entirely. I have nothing more to add.
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I wouldn't use how Telamont was portrayed in The Herald as proof of his incompetence.
One of the objectives of The Sundering was to wipe out Shade, and accordingly, they were made to be bumbling idiots in The Herald. Telamont really felt out of character when compared to how he was portrayed in the Return of the Archwizards arc and the Cale stories.
I also agree with this. Personally, I was not a fan of Shade. However, I dislike how things ended for them. It was not a good way for them to go out, considering their circumstances. The end of Telamont should have been at Shar's hands.
It would have been so much more poetic for a trilogy of novels where Telamont's empire rapidly crumbles around him. It would have given us an opportunity to really crawl inside his head, and feel his anguish as everything he sought to preserve and build was lost. ...and in his final moments, he realizes that he was always doomed, the moment he made his pact with Shar his fate was sealed. He realizes, fully and completely, what he has done and feels the deepest penetrating grief and loss imaginable.
Then he abandons all hope. Shar reaches out to him in that moment, and he surrenders to her completely. The book ends with him standing in the midst of his ruined empire, and he takes his own life...and then passes on to the other side where Shar is waiting, and his soul is consumed into oblivion.
Shar does not build empires. Whatever the Returned Netherese possessed, they held only because Shar allowed it, and she allowed it only because she intended to take it away.
This is how that story should have ended. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 06:13:29
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Elminster has been depowered for a century in the Realms. Only recently has he regained some measure of power, and that power was handily checked by other beings from one end of The Herald to the other.
I don't want El to be depowered because we've been getting that story for the last four Elminster novels.
What I prefer is for the Old Mage to be as he is now: one player amongst many, a meddler, someone who can be fooled and tricked, and who desires to retire/train a replacement, and a guide who shows us new things about the Realms in each new book. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 14:05:03
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I find Elminster more entertaining as a cantankerous font of infinite esoteric knowledge than as a blaster. At his best when he can deploy others towards what needs to be done and just hide in his tower under piles of precious research.
Elminster is generally disinteresting to me when he bothers to don his pointy hat, bite down on his pipe, roll up his tattered sleeves, and actually start casting spells. Oh wee, look its Elminster, the day is saved - no matter how wordy and spectacular the battle, no matter how many setbacks and reversals and delays - we all know that while Elminster may not always win in a decisive manner he also wont ever lose or fail or get killed.
The stories which involve Elminster as a person rather than an ubermage engage me most. Mostly these revolve around his (brief) youth or his magical difficulties during the various Mystran Interregna. |
[/Ayrik] |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 23:28:24
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Isn't he supposed to be the most powerful spellcaster? Why wouldn't he be able to defeat Telamont? I did not read any of the novels but characters in a story have whatever capabilities the author desires... Ed Greenwood created the Forgotten Realms so I think its fair for him to destroy Telamont. I found him and his city out of place in the realms.
I personally don't like excessively powerful NPCs or ridiculously high magic locales (Like the City of Shade) |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2015 : 23:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Isn't he supposed to be the most powerful spellcaster?
No. Not even close.
Elminster does not even crack the Top 10. He may or may not crack the Top 20--it is debatable.
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Why wouldn't he be able to defeat Telamont?
Someone else will hopefully correct me if I am wrong, but he could not even solo Telamont. He was being empowered by the Srinshee when he battled him. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 24 Feb 2015 23:48:14 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 00:12:31
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Let's start another "Telamont should have beaten Elminster into the dust because I love the idea of the bad guys winning because I am cool like that" thread. I'll go get some popcorn.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 00:48:31
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| Elminster is pretty much going to stay in his current role, wizards make too much money out of him. I almost feel sorry for Ed, I wonder if he feels trapped having to write about an NPC in a way he never intended. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 02:33:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Let's start another "Telamont should have beaten Elminster into the dust because I love the idea of the bad guys winning because I am cool like that" thread. I'll go get some popcorn.
-- George Krashos
My problem with how Telamont was depicted in The Herald has nothing to do with wanting to see the bad guys wiining (far from it actually). |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 02:35:37
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"No. Not even close.
Elminster does not even crack the Top 10. He may or may not crack the Top 20--it is debatable."
I can buy your top 10 list, even though I can only think of a couple that could be more powerful than El off the top of my head. But "may or may not" crack the top 20?!? I would really like to see you to list 20 spell casters more powerful than El.  |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 03:09:12
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Plenty of dragons on that list, I'll wager.
Edit: And that list will be incomplete, because who knows how many other terribly powerful dragons, illithids, beholders and worse have been frozen away by Elminster or other Chosen. What we saw at the end of The Herald is probably the above water portion of the iceberg. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 25 Feb 2015 03:17:34 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 04:47:48
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| Any imaginary character can defeat any other if the author desires it = P |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 06:30:02
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Let's start another "Telamont should have beaten Elminster into the dust because I love the idea of the bad guys winning because I am cool like that" thread. I'll go get some popcorn.
-- George Krashos
Way to knock down that strawman. I haven't seen anyone whine solely because Telamont lost. I have seen people whine because of how the spell duel took place, which is a perfectly valid complaint.
You've been on these forums longer than I have, which means you know how much time fans have spent debating fantasy matchups like Elminster vs. Telamont and Larloch vs. The Shrinshee.
I don't know if you follow sports, but anytime a highly anticipated game is a blowout, fans are disappointed. Larloch and The Shrinshee are rarely featured in anything, so we've been eagerly awaiting the chance to see them in all their unimaginable glory. It was anti-climactic.
I still like Ed's writing pretty well in general, and I still enjoyed The Herald. But I was critical of the payoff at the end, and I think that criticism is valid. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 06:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24
"No. Not even close.
Elminster does not even crack the Top 10. He may or may not crack the Top 20--it is debatable."
I can buy your top 10 list, even though I can only think of a couple that could be more powerful than El off the top of my head. But "may or may not" crack the top 20?!? I would really like to see you to list 20 spell casters more powerful than El.
I said it was debatable. Mostly, it is debatable to me because I do not mentally keep track of all the uber mages running around, but I know some of the really rare and obscure ones.
For example, if we attempted to create an actual list, everyone would run to put individuals like Larloch on it. Some might even remember that Ioulaum is still alive and well. However, how many would include Arthindol the Terraseer? How many would include Necroqysar Shoon VII? What about High Lord Planner Illis Khendarhine? Should we talk about all the Liches and Demiliches running around? 
The fact is there are a lot of powerful people out there. Elminster is among them, but he is not, as MrHedgehog was wondering, the most powerful spellcaster--not by a long shot.
Elminster was roughly on par with the Princes of Shade in terms of arcane power. He was able to defeat Telamont, once again if I am not mistaken, by receiving a temporary power boost from the Srinshee. Elminster has those types of lucky benefits when it comes to fighting more powerful individuals. If he can't defeat them personally, someone more powerful will aid him or save him, be it another one of the Chosen like the Srinshee or Mystra herself. That is how Elminster overcomes more powerful foes.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 08:17:04
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| Would describing the battle (like a historian) contravene breaching copyright? I am curious...but don't want to read the books... |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 08:51:01
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I also wish they would cut back on Mystra having a direct hand in things. Why should she have so much direct intervention when the other deities do not? Selecting a chosen and giving them power is where it should stop.
I just get very tired of the cheesy antics of Elminster and others like him that always win no matter what. I'm also getting tired of the way they are trying to "clean up" the Realms. Some things do need to be removed and others do not. There was nothing wrong with Shade enclave, but just the way they do it is so heavy handed. It seems like we get a quick "bang" and then on to the next thing. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 09:18:11
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I agree shadowsoul.
I don't like deities being so direct. "Deux es Machina" is not my cup of tea. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 11:04:57
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The most jarring of these was when the Red Wizards attacked, and Mystra's response was to manifest an avatar to heal and restore Elminster and the Simbul.
Godsforbid there could be consequences to such direct intervention, or to the Mystarran priesthood. None of the other gods interfere as much of Mystra does, not even Bane, the god of world domination. Not even freaking Cyric.
It doesn't help that Mr Greenwood's villains are cringe-inducing, regardless of how they were portrayed in other forms of media. Being evil does not mean being incompetent. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 13:02:27
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The most jarring of these was when the Red Wizards attacked, and Mystra's response was to manifest an avatar to heal and restore Elminster and the Simbul.
Godsforbid there could be consequences to such direct intervention, or to the Mystarran priesthood. None of the other gods interfere as much of Mystra does, not even Bane, the god of world domination. Not even freaking Cyric.
It doesn't help that Mr Greenwood's villains are cringe-inducing, regardless of how they were portrayed in other forms of media. Being evil does not mean being incompetent.
See, that's the thing. I really enjoyed Ed's portrayal of Telamont. We got to see a continuation of Kemp's work in humanizing Telamont. In Kemp's books, we got to see a man who had sacrificed what was most precious to him (his wife) in order to maintain power. Even while reveling in his power, he was weighed down with sadness (just how Shar likes her followers).
In The Herald, Ed portrays Telamont as being very cautious, constantly alert for plots against him. He keeps his son and personal bodyguard (Aglarel, I think) with him at all times. He has a very sharp memory, shown as he deals with countless citizens, taking their reports and giving them new assignments.
The Telamont in The Herald strikes me as very clever and creative. You can see why he's been in power for 2,000 years. I also LOVED Telamont's interactions with Shar. Even as old and powerful as he was, he paled before her greatness, and he was aware of that. Even as evil as he was, he was still chilled to the bone by her cold, casual cruelty (showing that he retained some of his humanity).
I also loved his admission to Shar that he was afraid of Larloch. For all his supposed arrogance, Telamont knew that he couldn't win that fight, and he had the good sense to fear facing the Archlich.
That's what made Telamont's casual defeat so lackluster. He was made a compelling character by Troy Denning, really brought to life by Paul Kemp, and further built up by Ed. So for him to go out like that was disappointing. All his accomplishments were reduced to being a puppet for Larloch, and then he was pimp slapped into oblivion by Elminster. As one of the best villains ever created in FR, he deserved a more glorious demise. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 13:03:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I also wish they would cut back on Mystra having a direct hand in things. Why should she have so much direct intervention when the other deities do not? Selecting a chosen and giving them power is where it should stop.
I just get very tired of the cheesy antics of Elminster and others like him that always win no matter what. I'm also getting tired of the way they are trying to "clean up" the Realms. Some things do need to be removed and others do not. There was nothing wrong with Shade enclave, but just the way they do it is so heavy handed. It seems like we get a quick "bang" and then on to the next thing.
Actually, I felt the same way about Shade. They popped up out of nowhere, took over a good chunk of the Realms, knocked down anyone who got in their way, and were generally just the favored, plot-protected bad guys. Wisconsin doesn't produce as much cheese in a year as Shade did. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 13:17:09
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Limited? No.
Unknown... for ALL the 'big guns'. Guys like El and Larloch are not supposed to be a set of stats in a monster manual; they are PLOT DEVICES.
If you can't handle playing in a setting where someone else is more powerful then you, well... the fault doesn't lie with the setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 13:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by charger_ss24
"No. Not even close.
Elminster does not even crack the Top 10. He may or may not crack the Top 20--it is debatable."
I can buy your top 10 list, even though I can only think of a couple that could be more powerful than El off the top of my head. But "may or may not" crack the top 20?!? I would really like to see you to list 20 spell casters more powerful than El.
I said it was debatable. Mostly, it is debatable to me because I do not mentally keep track of all the uber mages running around, but I know some of the really rare and obscure ones.
For example, if we attempted to create an actual list, everyone would run to put individuals like Larloch on it. Some might even remember that Ioulaum is still alive and well. However, how many would include Arthindol the Terraseer? How many would include Necroqysar Shoon VII? What about High Lord Planner Illis Khendarhine? Should we talk about all the Liches and Demiliches running around?
The fact is there are a lot of powerful people out there. Elminster is among them, but he is not, as MrHedgehog was wondering, the most powerful spellcaster--not by a long shot.
Elminster was roughly on par with the Princes of Shade in terms of arcane power. He was able to defeat Telamont, once again if I am not mistaken, by receiving a temporary power boost from the Srinshee. Elminster has those types of lucky benefits when it comes to fighting more powerful individuals. If he can't defeat them personally, someone more powerful will aid him or save him, be it another one of the Chosen like the Srinshee or Mystra herself. That is how Elminster overcomes more powerful foes.
I guess it's debatable who is the most powerful, but for novel purposes, it's clearly Elminster. The Realms has a bunch of archmages like the Terraseer and his sarruhk lich brethren in Okoth, who spend their undeath in hiberation. If you've done nothing for over 1,000, I think you come off the list as most powerful. In terms of actual accomplishment, Elminster is #1.
Also, while Elminster did get a power boost, so did Telamont. He absorbed the power from every object in his throne room before their fight. Shade's #1 goal since they came back to Faerun has been the collection of all Netherese magic items, so Telamont had a dragon's hoard sitting in his throne room. He absorbed so much power that his eyes were glowing. So while it was a sneak attack, I doubt a spell duel with both guys at their normal power level would have ended any differently. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 13:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
I also wish they would cut back on Mystra having a direct hand in things. Why should she have so much direct intervention when the other deities do not? Selecting a chosen and giving them power is where it should stop.
I just get very tired of the cheesy antics of Elminster and others like him that always win no matter what. I'm also getting tired of the way they are trying to "clean up" the Realms. Some things do need to be removed and others do not. There was nothing wrong with Shade enclave, but just the way they do it is so heavy handed. It seems like we get a quick "bang" and then on to the next thing.
Actually, I felt the same way about Shade. They popped up out of nowhere, took over a good chunk of the Realms, knocked down anyone who got in their way, and were generally just the favored, plot-protected bad guys. Wisconsin doesn't produce as much cheese in a year as Shade did.
I will agree with Shade having a lot of plot armor. When a group of villains defeated Mystra's Chosen in Return of the Archwizards, we should have known something was up.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 14:48:22
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God forbid the Chosen eat some humble pie for once. With the sheer incompetence slapped on Thay and poor Manshoon, the Realms needed decent villains.
Nothing done by Shade tops Elminster's plot armor, anyway.
The sad thing is that Mystra's ascension, the Chosen of Mystra and so on could have been interesting things to explore, from the ramifications of a new goddess struggling with her role (and hey, some insight into Azuth, Savras and Velsharoon!), of the Chosen reeling as their mother-goddess is replaced and struggling to come to terms with it, or even godly politics as the other deities court mages resentful of so much value being placed on the Chosen...
Instead, it's just Tuesday for Mystra and her Power Rangers.
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 15:23:31
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| repeats what Markustay said |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Would you rather see Elminster limited in power?
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