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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  07:31:15  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I honestly cannot believe I overlooked this in the past. How many people here have Elminster's Forgotten Realms? If so, on page 146 and 147, Ed reveals the true intentions of the faithful of Gond.

Their goal is to be the power behind every throne, and to achieve this they wish to make people dependent upon Gond's inventions. If necessary they are encouraged to smash guilds and anyone who won't champion the cause of spreading Gond's wonders. Gond's priests are encouraged to enrich themselves by selling their inventions, and to use that wealth to buy up lands and buildings in an attempt to amass power. He is encouraging his faithful to work to overwhelm and subsume the church of Waukeen, as they believe Gond shall "conquer and wed" Waukeen herself.

His faithful believe that magic and mechanics are locked in a secret war. To that end, the faith are encouraged to "eliminate" any spellcasters who openly destroy, deride, hate, or fear in Gonds innovations. He encourages them to work covertly, whenever possible. He encourages his faithful to smile and pretend to be an ally in public, to make it seem that magic and mechanics are not at war... but then at the first opportunity smite the spellcasters who get in the way or oppose Gond.

!!!!

That is a whole new spin on the deity I did not see coming! This pretty much means that the cult of Gond and pretty much every deity of magic--most specifically Mystra--are in a secret war with one another.

Gond always seemed like an uninteresting deity to me, but this puts a whole new spin on him. He is a ruthless deity--it makes me wonder how he manages to keep his neutral alignment.

The entry goes on to describe the priests of Gond as ambitious individuals who hunger for power and wealth. They tend to be bold, but think and plan ahead. Gond does not seem to mind them enriching themselves, so long as they use inventions, modify inventions, and stir others to invent and innovate as much as possible.

Gond and Bane should totally hook up and be BFF's. He makes a perfect deity for any Zhent. "No one expects the Wonderbringers!"

Was anyone else surprised when they read this? Has it been discussed before?

Demzer
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  10:39:53  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Was anyone else surprised when they read this? Has it been discussed before?



I was surprised when i read it because it's an unambiguous statement. The secret creed is thus and so, period. This gives the Church of Gond an all new depth i've just tentatively explored as a DM. I was interested in it and asked Ed, particularly about the singling out of Waukeen as "target deity", but the busy Master of Realmslore as of now has yet to give an answer on that particular question.

With this secret creed in mind, there are some little things that have to be reconsidered, like the whole mechanical inquisitors affair with Cyric and Mystra and the blow up of Tilverton: Tilverton had a great temple to Gond, then the forces of two deities of magic (Shar through the Shadovars and Mystra through Vangerdahast) arrive and completely erase the place, with a pathetic cover story and a wink, fact is, neither Cormyr nor the Shadovar lost much, yet Tilverton and it's temple to Gond were no more.
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eeorey
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  10:49:26  Show Profile Send eeorey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That particular passage reads "THEIR secret creed", we don't actually know if Gond is on board with all of that. Perhaps the way he keeps his alignment neutral is by... well staying neutral and not encouraging or reprimanding those priests.
Also I think this secret creed makes his church a lot more interesting, steampunk meats 40k Adeptus Mechanicus plus some cloak and dagger. I find that a LOT better than just some gnomes and a few mad human inventors/scientists being silly and making some clunky tech that is more or less a joke.
Now the rivalry between wizards and gondish artificers is pretty well known, what I'm wondering is what do they make of divine casters serving other deities and psionicists.
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Rymac
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  16:18:55  Show Profile  Visit Rymac's Homepage Send Rymac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eeorey

That particular passage reads "THEIR secret creed", we don't actually know if Gond is on board with all of that.



That's how I understood it. It could be a heresy within the church, or something bordering on heresy.
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  16:45:23  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This whole secret creed is very informative! It makes an aspect of the Murder in Baldur's Gate adventure make more sense.

Potential Spoiler Warning if you haven't played/run Murder in Baldur's Gate




In the adventure one of the characters and potential villains you meet is the high priest of Gond, Duke Torlin Silvershield. His motives and ambitions always confused me. They worked, but they didn't fit what I envisioned when I pictured a priest of Gond. With this info, that changes. He makes perfect sense.

- Delwa Aunglor
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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  16:48:46  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lots of gems like that in the book.

The cool thing about this is that it wasn't done in a micro-font, thousand word encyclopedic entry. It's just there. BOOM! And the mind takes off. That's what good Realms writing is.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  17:05:02  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eeorey

That particular passage reads "THEIR secret creed", we don't actually know if Gond is on board with all of that. Perhaps the way he keeps his alignment neutral is by... well staying neutral and not encouraging or reprimanding those priests.


quote:
Originally posted by Rymac

That's how I understood it. It could be a heresy within the church, or something bordering on heresy.


That may be the case, but the thing is it is written in such a way as to more or less say that the entire clergy of Gond have this understanding. If we read some of the other entries, for example, such as the one regarding Azuth or Deneir, we see that there is a diversity of opinion. Not so for Gond's entry! I am sure there are those within the cult that hold different views, but they appear to be the minority.

This either means Gond is sanctioning their actions (even if it is with a wink and a nod), or his entire faith has gone astray.

quote:
Originally posted by eeorey

Also I think this secret creed makes his church a lot more interesting...


I agree entirely. Gond has always been one of my least favorite deities. I could not believe such a bland and uninteresting deity existed in the setting. He was mostly a wallpaper deity, existing to fill a niche, and that was it. "Gond is the deity of craftsfolk, and he wants you, unsurprisingly, to make things." That was my approach to him.

I saw him interesting, only in so far as he was connected with Lantan.

...so of course, when I read the secret creed of his clergy I was like:

I didn't see it coming at all. I mean... Yes, I knew there were conflicts between the clergy of Gond and the clergy of Mystra, but I did not realize how... entrenched... it was. I mean, read this line from Faiths and Pantheons: "Some in the church of Mystra oppose the Wonderbringer for holding technology over the Art, but in truth Gond views magic as simply another tool by which he can create new devices."

That line now appears to be straight up propaganda. "To the public, magic and mechanics are not at war. Privately, they are deadly foes. So smile and be an ally in public, but await a good chance to smite spellcasters who denigrate or oppose Gond." There is no ambiguity there. The priests of Gond see themselves at war with magic and those who wield it.

Sure, I don't think they would have any problems with using magic to further their own ends. However, in so far as magic exists outside the domain of technology, it appears to be derided as a space that should be filled by an invention of Gond. ...it is a sort of nuanced, but outright antagonistic view. It certainly marks down the cult of Mystra as the clergy of Gond's enemies.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I was surprised when i read it because it's an unambiguous statement. The secret creed is thus and so, period. This gives the Church of Gond an all new depth i've just tentatively explored as a DM. I was interested in it and asked Ed, particularly about the singling out of Waukeen as "target deity", but the busy Master of Realmslore as of now has yet to give an answer on that particular question.


Yes, that is what struck me about it as well. It was written as if this was well understood by all the Wonderbringers. Of course, there may be some who stand outside of those aims, as there surely must be, but they seem to be the minority. If we look at some of the other entries for the deities, and I mentioned Azuth and Deneir above, we see that different perspectives are given. This group within the cult believes this, and this other group within the cult believes that. ...not so for the cult of Gond! There is no alternative viewpoint given.

It is portrayed as pretty much as, 'On the outside, they seem like benign individuals interested in furthering the lot of craftsfolk and mechanical innovators, but behind closed doors they are utterly ruthless and conniving to the core. They will work to utterly destroy anyone who stands in their way, especially those who use magic or promote its use.'

It is no wonder that Gond is the official state religion of Lantan, worshiped by all there. He is utterly ruthless in his quest for power, and is not afraid to 'eliminate' anyone who stands in his way.

Another thing that stood out to me, regarding the part about Waukeen... well... it does not exactly sound as if the Wonderbringers believe that Waukeen reciprocates those feelings.
The whole entry has a rape-like undertone (overtone?) to it. Basically saying that Waukeen will serve Gond and be his bride, whether she likes it or not. It encourages the Wonderbringers to "overwhelm" the clergy of Waukeen, and states that Gond intends to "conquer" her.

quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

With this secret creed in mind, there are some little things that have to be reconsidered, like the whole mechanical inquisitors affair with Cyric and Mystra and the blow up of Tilverton: Tilverton had a great temple to Gond, then the forces of two deities of magic (Shar through the Shadovars and Mystra through Vangerdahast) arrive and completely erase the place, with a pathetic cover story and a wink, fact is, neither Cormyr nor the Shadovar lost much, yet Tilverton and it's temple to Gond were no more.


Oh my goodness! I didn't even think of that. Imagine how they feel about the Spellplague, and what happened to Lantan!!

Jeeze. This understanding of Gond really re-writes everything I had assumed and understood about him, his priests, and his cult.
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  17:28:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac

quote:
Originally posted by eeorey

That particular passage reads "THEIR secret creed", we don't actually know if Gond is on board with all of that.



That's how I understood it. It could be a heresy within the church, or something bordering on heresy.


I just went back and re-read the entry in full. It seems that I was right, that this is the view held by the vast majority of Gond's clergy. Directly from Gond's entry in Elminster's Forgotten Realms:

quote:
Both the stationary Gondsmen in Waterdeep, Athkatla, Selgaunt, Saerloon, Baldur's Gate, and the other burgeoning cities of the Realms, and the majority who wander, include ambitious individuals who hunger for power and wealth. ...

Hundreds of Gondsmen scheme to make themselves "coin mountains" or rulers or both, just as soon as they can. ...


So, the clergy of Gond are actively looking to sit on thrones, and failing that they seek to become the power behind them. They are doing this wherever they are located. They are extremely ambitious individuals who hunger for both wealth and power. This is the majority of them, both those who wander and those who are stationary at the temples.
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Rymac
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USA
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  18:28:52  Show Profile  Visit Rymac's Homepage Send Rymac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Jeeze. This understanding of Gond really re-writes everything I had assumed and understood about him, his priests, and his cult.



Same here. I always envisioned Gond as something much different as well, certainly more benign. His clergy as well as Gond (because Gond is a neutral deity) didn't care how the inventions were used, so long as they were used.

I must have passed that info over, or just disregarded it, because it didn't make sense to how I perceived Gond and his clergy since the OGB nearly 30 years ago.

I'm glad we're exploring it. We could ask Ed, but I'm sure it will run right into one of those NDAs.
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Irennan
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  19:01:08  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, that passage left me quite surprised, it seemed out of place for Gond's clergy. It is indeed interesting, but I would include it in a more moderate way, having Gondsmen trying to influence rulers or acquire power, but emphasizing the goal of imposing Gond's vision and forcing people to embrace it (and maybe preparing the path of a new era where ''technological'' development and inventions will be the driving force behind the society of the various nations in the Realms).

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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  19:18:41  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It made a twisted kind of sense to me when I read it. Followers of Gond are always seen as outsiders. Their creations can be useful to the wider world and so often command a high price but said world sees their creators as weirdos - or even DANGEROUS - just because they're capable of great feats of innovation. Even Oghma has mixed feelings about Gond.

Of course we know in the real world that historically, many truly creative types have had a variety of personality disorders.

But the followers of Gond might feel that they have to take drastic action to end the discrimination against them for merely daring to think about technological progress instead of relying on all that magic nonsense which has caused all of those problems in the past.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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Aldrick
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  19:30:24  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rymac

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Jeeze. This understanding of Gond really re-writes everything I had assumed and understood about him, his priests, and his cult.



Same here. I always envisioned Gond as something much different as well, certainly more benign. His clergy as well as Gond (because Gond is a neutral deity) didn't care how the inventions were used, so long as they were used.

I must have passed that info over, or just disregarded it, because it didn't make sense to how I perceived Gond and his clergy since the OGB nearly 30 years ago.

I'm glad we're exploring it. We could ask Ed, but I'm sure it will run right into one of those NDAs.


No, this is a totally new revelation revealed in Elminster's Forgotten Realms. I checked both Faiths and Pantheons as well as Faiths and Avatars, and there is no real hint that they are like this at all. My impression was identical to your own, until I read that bit in El's FR, which is why it was so shocking.

So, basically, what we were getting all these years has been the "public face" of the cult, and not its true motivations or intentions. I could have certainly envisioned a few scattered Wonderbringers being like this, but El's FR paints it as pretty much orthodox cult doctrine.

One thing I did notice was the rankings of the cult as mentioned in Faiths and Avatars. The cult has a strict hierarchy, and individuals are expected to obey those above them in the hierarchy. Once you are confirmed as a priest you are known as a "Seeker" then sometime after that you become known as "Greater Seeker." I assume the Greater Seekers are individuals who have fully completed their training, and are given some degree of independence to go out and roam the Realms on their own while still reporting to superiors.

However, after the Greater Seeker, there come ranks that begin with "Seeker of the Twelfth Order", "Seeker of the Eleventh Order", etc. on up to "Seeker of the First Order." This eventually culminates in the title of "High Seeker." The High Seekers are all the senior clergy, which would likely mean the leaders of the various Temples throughout the Realms.

Finally, there are two special titles beyond that, bestowed by Gond himself. The first is "Artificer" who is an individual personally rewarded and named by Gond for performing some type of special service to the faith. Then there is the highest ranking member of the orthodox cult, the "High Artificer." The High Artificer is the nominal leader over all other priests of the faith, and is/was located on Lantan.

As I was reading the various titles of "Seeker of the Twelfth Order" type titles, I got a very Freemason type vibe from it. If you are essentially a fully fledged priest of Gond once you are a Greater Seeker, how do you rise in rank? I am assuming that each "Order" -- as you rise higher ultimately toward "High Seeker" (senior priest) -- you are slowly brought into the inner workings and secrets of the cult. That would include the secret creed.

So, on the lower levels of the cult, it appears exactly as we imagined it. Largely benign. They are out there helping craftsfolk and inventors. However, certain individuals carefully groomed to rise higher in ranks, and as this happens the greater truths of Gond are revealed to them. Each numbered Order is a test of the trustworthiness and capabilities of the priest. As they prove their worth and capabilities, the greater mysteries and wonders of the Wonderbringer are revealed to his faithful servants.

I am imagining secret handshakes and passwords, private divine rituals intended to do all sorts of horrible things (especially to spellcasters), clandestine meetings, and more.

There are two things that I am still working out in my head.

First, is my vision of Lantan has been totally turned upside down. I turned my Lantan into a Magitech wonder. However, with this new information it seems to me Gond would be opposed to the idea of magitech, because it relies on magic, and a true invention should be able to be used by anyone.

Second, I am trying to envision how the Wonderbringers level the playing field against Arcane Magic users. My first attempt at thinking about this, I attempted to envision how things might actually "work." However, the more I think about it I may have to just wave my hand and use techno babble. Example: "Here use this amulet. The lead inside has been resequenced within the hyper wave pulse chamber. This has induced a frequency shift caused by matter/antimatter flux, and this has caused it to become flow bearing. In short it will prevent the finger wigglers from attempting to scry upon you!"

Edited by - Aldrick on 22 Feb 2015 19:32:23
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Demzer
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  22:21:36  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Second, I am trying to envision how the Wonderbringers level the playing field against Arcane Magic users. My first attempt at thinking about this, I attempted to envision how things might actually "work." However, the more I think about it I may have to just wave my hand and use techno babble. Example: "Here use this amulet. The lead inside has been resequenced within the hyper wave pulse chamber. This has induced a frequency shift caused by matter/antimatter flux, and this has caused it to become flow bearing. In short it will prevent the finger wigglers from attempting to scry upon you!"



The Lantanna have spellwebs, from the Current Clack section of the Elminster Everwinking Eye article of Polyhedron 64. Spellwebs "feed on the magic of items and spells - both cast and memorized. Spellcasters who enter a spellweb are feebleminded and lose power to work magic for some years, perhaps forever". And the same piece say that in Lantan they have "many" and thieves of a spellweb are pursued by the agents of the Ayrorch (Lantanna's Council of Twelve) called the "Hands of Gond".

Given the power of such an item i would think spellcasters would like to play extremely safe with Lantan, also i wonder how those things interacted with the Spellplague.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  22:53:39  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
EGP:EFR isn't much in the way of a re-write for the Realms pre-Spellplague. So while we can and should consider the revelations about the priesthood of Gond in terms of what it might mean for the past, I advise not treating the information as anything other than a current, "here's how things are now" description.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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The Hooded One
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  23:09:12  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh. I was WONDERING how long it would take someone to notice the spellwebs and realize how long Ed has been hinting at this.
But yes, Jeremy's comment has merit. The best way to view this is . . .

(and I'm paraphrasing an explanation Ed gave me, in what follows):

Gond and his highest priests mistrusting magic and trusting in devices and tools and processes that can be fashioned and used without any Art at all. But seeing that magic is "the big hammer" in the world, and they're just going to have to live with that, seeking to have influence through wealth and ruling or more often being "powers behind thrones" instead.
Until the Spellplague hits, they see it as proof positive how dangerous magic is and how much damage over-reliance on the Art can do to everyone, and in the power grab among the deities of the Sundering (with new Tablets of Fate to be written, reflecting the "new current" status, portfolios, and power levels of the deities), the same thing that caused all sorts of Chosen to be created by many gods, they see that it's time, or should be, to move actively against arcane spellcasters. NOT in an open "kill the dirty wizards!" confrontation, because that isn't Gond's way, but to resist and thwart and crowd out and hamper, because it's better for everyone (not just Gond and his faithful) if magic is rare and special and restricted.

So there you have it. And yes, that certainly does seem as if Gond has it in for Waukeen. (Not rape, but subsumption. As in, "conquer and wrest divine power. Perhaps wed or seduce to do so, if that's what it takes to both accomplish it and avoid other gods ganging up on Gond in reaction.") Again, this is based on Ed's hints.
He also took care to add:

The best thing about all of this is that mortals (yep, even gamers!) CAN'T know what's really going on with the gods (as even the gods themselves are often mistaken, spinning things, or outright lying), so this can be "true" or "utterly false" or somewhere in between in your Realms campaign, and so can how much Gond tolerates this move-against-magic approach within his clergy and lay followers. After all, his wisest course, given the great power of the Weave, is to sit back and say and do very little, so if Mystra ever musters her Chosen and/or servitors and/or wizards in general against Gondsmen/Gondar, Gond can say: "It was merely a heresy, never something I agreed with, but as I'm NOT the tyrant Bane or Shar is, it would be wrong of me to crush mortals who espouse it; mortals must grow in insight and mastery of the world with as little steering as we divine can give them, or they have achieved nothing and are not bettered by what they do."

So saith Ed. And I'll repost all of this on his thread, for scribes who haven't found this one yet.
love,
THO
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Misereor
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  23:31:31  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Curious coincidence.
I never read that book, but just after third edition came out, I played a Cleric of Gond. I always felt that in order for technology to have real impact on the world, the clergy of Gond would have to control trade to some extent, so as to decisively further the spread of it. Trying to implement my little theory annoyed the DM to no end :)

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
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Posted - 23 Feb 2015 :  00:17:36  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So I was on to something. Neet!

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Aldrick
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Posted - 23 Feb 2015 :  02:52:11  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Heh. I was WONDERING how long it would take someone to notice the spellwebs and realize how long Ed has been hinting at this.
But yes, Jeremy's comment has merit. The best way to view this is . . .

(and I'm paraphrasing an explanation Ed gave me, in what follows):

Gond and his highest priests mistrusting magic and trusting in devices and tools and processes that can be fashioned and used without any Art at all. But seeing that magic is "the big hammer" in the world, and they're just going to have to live with that, seeking to have influence through wealth and ruling or more often being "powers behind thrones" instead.
Until the Spellplague hits, they see it as proof positive how dangerous magic is and how much damage over-reliance on the Art can do to everyone, and in the power grab among the deities of the Sundering (with new Tablets of Fate to be written, reflecting the "new current" status, portfolios, and power levels of the deities), the same thing that caused all sorts of Chosen to be created by many gods, they see that it's time, or should be, to move actively against arcane spellcasters. NOT in an open "kill the dirty wizards!" confrontation, because that isn't Gond's way, but to resist and thwart and crowd out and hamper, because it's better for everyone (not just Gond and his faithful) if magic is rare and special and restricted.

So there you have it. And yes, that certainly does seem as if Gond has it in for Waukeen. (Not rape, but subsumption. As in, "conquer and wrest divine power. Perhaps wed or seduce to do so, if that's what it takes to both accomplish it and avoid other gods ganging up on Gond in reaction.") Again, this is based on Ed's hints.
He also took care to add:

The best thing about all of this is that mortals (yep, even gamers!) CAN'T know what's really going on with the gods (as even the gods themselves are often mistaken, spinning things, or outright lying), so this can be "true" or "utterly false" or somewhere in between in your Realms campaign, and so can how much Gond tolerates this move-against-magic approach within his clergy and lay followers. After all, his wisest course, given the great power of the Weave, is to sit back and say and do very little, so if Mystra ever musters her Chosen and/or servitors and/or wizards in general against Gondsmen/Gondar, Gond can say: "It was merely a heresy, never something I agreed with, but as I'm NOT the tyrant Bane or Shar is, it would be wrong of me to crush mortals who espouse it; mortals must grow in insight and mastery of the world with as little steering as we divine can give them, or they have achieved nothing and are not bettered by what they do."

So saith Ed. And I'll repost all of this on his thread, for scribes who haven't found this one yet.
love,
THO


Wow! Thanks for the additional information THO. I think it definitely makes sense that the Wonderbringers feel this way, given the events of the Spellplague. Heck, the Realms is littered with magical catastrophes, and they could make a list miles long.

A reason you didn't mention, though I imagine it motivates some, is that magic is always held in the hands of an elite few. Technology has the ability to level the playing field, and put real power into the hands of every man and woman. No more would people have to live under the horrible tyranny of wizards like in Thay, as they would have real means of resisting.

I am imagining a priest of Gond teaming up with a priest of Lathander: "We must forge a new world free of the magic that nearly destroyed the old one, and take the power held by tyrants and place it into the hands of the people!"

It also seems that some in Azuth's faith are heading into a direct collision course with the faithful of Gond. According to another interesting tidbit from Elminster's Forgotten Realms, pg. 140:

quote:
"Traditionally, Azuth's priests had no secret, secular aims, beyond participating in all projects that the church of Mystra was pursuing. In 1352 DR, however, the self-styled High Spellmaster of Elturel, the wizard Emdrur Harvult--soon supported by the Narthraumurge of Tashluta, the wizard Leiyonar Braskrazra--began to preach that it was time to make rulers everywhere in the Realms friendly to arcane spellcasters. This was to be accomplished either by becoming rulers (by dethroning the incumbents) or by becoming the power behind many thrones--a tactic Alustriel dubbed the Vizier Gambit."
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  23:51:43  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was reading through this old Polyhedron.

I know I'm resurrecting an old scroll, but I'm wondering if anyone ever learned more about the spellwebs... This is the only scroll that pops up with a search.

The description is very vague - not even telling what form it takes. Is it literally a web of some kind or a net? We know it is a physical object that can be stolen. We also know it is something that a wizard can "enter". Would love to have that one flushed out after all these years.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2223 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2020 :  23:55:31  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also of interest would be the Crypt of Dragons (from the same article) near Hilp in Cormyr if this has ever been talked about more.
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
417 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  01:53:03  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I did some searches in the documents I have and sadly, it looks like "spellweb" actually refers to several different things:

1. The item referred to in the Polyhedron magazine and it was the only mention I found for this form of the term.

2. A 3rd level drow priest spell listed in The Drow of the Underdark 2e source book. This spell is basically a priest version of the web wizard spell.

3. A means of tying several spells together so that they all go off at once. This was defined in So Sayeth Ed (2010-2016):

"Spellwebs
- THO 25/5/12
Spellwebs are basically stronger wards rather than mythals (if a mythal affects every inch of space in an area, or is a "field," a ward-spell is far more limited, affecting a door or threshold or small passage/room - - or "trigger areas" for spells linked magically to other trigger areas, which is where the "webs" term comes from). So a middling-range spellcaster could set up a very simple spellweb (intruder entering this spot without doing X causes minor offensive spell to go off, and if that spell goes off, a spell-link causes an alarm [[either audible or silent, like magical radiance "coming on" in an area]] to be triggered elsewhere). A more powerful spellcaster could set up a more powerful spellweb, with layers of spells, contingencies in case anti-magic/dispelling is used against the spellweb, and so on. A REALLY powerful spellcaster could set up a spellweb that rivaled a simple mythal in properties, but a spellweb is always inherently more unstable than (and won't last as long as) a mythal."

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2223 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  05:25:06  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
#3 is what THO was talking about. This is also discussed in the Myth Drannor Magic Dragon article... I think it was in one of the Annuals. That article was based on a description of Ed's Elminster in Myth Drannor - in which Elminster works on a spell web for the Masked.

The one I'm hoping someone might have something more on is #1... its a long shot, but I figured I'd ask.
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TheIriaeban
Senior Scribe

USA
417 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2020 :  17:34:28  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It looks like the spellweb was stolen in 1313DR. It could be anywhere really even by the time of 2e (assuming they never caught up to the thief).

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Mrestos Khorvaen
Seeker

Spain
18 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2020 :  10:30:17  Show Profile Send Mrestos Khorvaen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe in places like Lantan were Gondians rule, there has been something of this mechanical supremacy.
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