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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2015 : 16:56:54
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Bear in mind, the Valkyries weren't winged. They rode pegasi. However, Ukko from Finnish mythology had winged maidens (though I know not a single story of Ukko or said maidens).
I will also agree, I'm not against the idea that the devils being fallen "angels" of some sort from long ago. The demons being corrupted elementals, I could buy for SOME demons. I prefer my demons have a more myriad and undefined background.
Oh, and the Loki, Hela, Mephisto thing from Marvel.... yeah, I absolutely LOVE the storyline Kieron Gillen (sp?) did for them. The idea that Leah was a figment of Loki's imagination given life.... and eventually gets sent to the past to grow up and become Hela.... amazing idea to have Loki be the parent of Hela. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2015 : 13:34:53
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Very interesting to discover how your version of the lower planes works Markustay, and yeah, Little Nicky is an underrated movie.
About Valkyries, in Poetic Edda, a Volva(witch/seer) told Odin that Valkyries come from "far away".
And while indeed Valkyries weren't winged, they were asociated with birds(mainly ravens and swans).
Valkyries were even sometimes identical with Swan Maidens, with Valkyries taking form of Swans.
And originaly, Valkyries rode giant winged wolves. Pretty cool, isn't it?
And about demons and elementals, in The Temple of Elemental Evil(or at least in the computer RPG version of it), 4 types of demons were asociated with elements:
Balor with Fire
Vrock with Air
Glabrezu with Earth
and Hezrou with Water.
So guess that maybe the first Balors were corrpted Fire Elementals, first Glabrezu corrupted Earth Elementals, first Vrocks corrupted Air Elementals, and first Hezrou corrupted Air Elementals. |
Edited by - Baltas on 20 Apr 2015 17:48:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 00:14:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Very interesting to discover how your version of the lower planes works Markustay, and yeah, Little Nicky is an underrated movie.
About Valkyries, in Poetic Edda, a Volva(witch/seer) told Odin that Valkyries come from "far away".
And while indeed Valkyries weren't winged, they were asociated with birds(mainly ravens and swans).
Valkyries were even sometimes identical with Swan Maidens, with Valkyries taking form of Swans.
And originaly, Valkyries rode giant winged wolves. Pretty cool, isn't it?
And about demons and elementals, in The Temple of Elemental Evil(or at least in the computer RPG version of it), 4 types of demons were asociated with elements:
Balor with Fire
Vrock with Air
Glabrezu with Earth
and Hezrou with Water.
So guess that maybe the first Balors were corrpted Fire Elementals, first Glabrezu corrupted Earth Elementals, first Vrocks corrupted Air Elementals, and first Hezrou corrupted Air Elementals.
Hmmm, ok, I could buy the Valkyries being interlopers from another pantheon (Finnish or Celtic).
Hmmm, Balors as fire elementals. I'd buy them more as corrupted Efreeti. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2015 : 11:02:39
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Well, I was very general with "elementals", to me it might be genies as well. Efreeti indeed could make very good "ancestors" for balors.
[EDIT]
And Vrock could be corrupted Arrowhawks, and I think Mephits could be partialy corrupted elementals, but not enough to make them true fiends. |
Edited by - Baltas on 22 Apr 2015 09:13:36 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 17:35:38
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Okay, going to 'go out on a limb' here, but my thinking with Valkyries, Deva, angels, Ukko, etc is that they can fly, period. I suppose most outsiders can - at least the ones ancient enough to have pre-existed the current universe and its set of physical laws.
So borrowing from video games like WoW or even Wizards101, there is just 'flying', which can be represented by wings, a mount, a broom... even a flying pestle and mortar. Like everything else concerning the 'spirit world' (those places beyond the Prime Material), how we see things is tainted by either our religious views, or how the being itself prefers to be seen (in other words, the religious variant would be the 'default' setting, unless the being chose to appear differently). This goes for their physical appearance, so why not their method of transportation? In other words, people see what they expect to see (unless a more power psyche is influencing what they see). You grow-up believing in 'winged beings', and then you see someone flying, your mind is going to slap some wings onto that image.
This goes back to my 'all things are really just energy given form' theory, which shoe-horns perfectly with D&D's Illusion system (if you believe in it, it becomes real for you).
I also whole-heartedly agree about demons and even devils. What I said above is the real basic general description of how many of them may have began. However, in a (near) infinite multiverse, anything is possible, and although many devils and demons may trace their roots back to angels and elementals (respectively), thats not necessarily always the case, and if anything, players are more likely to interact with 'exceptions to the rule' more often then not (because those are the outsiders that are trying to change their circumstances, in one way or another, and not 'fitting the mold' of the standard ones... even demons).
I also believe that ALL deities are ascended mortals. The word 'god' is actually just a generic term for any outsider of that tier (having its own domain), and just about any outsider could theoretically become a god given enough power. A deity is just a god that has taken on a 'template' (soul?) that allows it to create a two-way conduit for spiritual energy with mortals. This, of course, is far easier for something that was already born into the mortal world. I also believe that some exceptional mortals may become Outsiders themselves once they 'pass on' to an afterlife, but that is also not the rule (so truly evil or good people may get a 'job' in the afterlife, like how Petitioners are in Planescape). I suppose, technically, all mortals become Outsiders once they die, but I am talking about monster-manual stuff (mortals becoming angels or demons, etc).
You could work your way 'up the ranks' from any level, of course. Its very open-ended. Gods want to become Overgods, Overgods want to become Ultragods, Ultragods want to become 'Elder Gods', etc... Humans have little to no knowledge of anything above the normal 'god' tier (which would include primordials and even greater planer giants). As in the case of Ao, when mortals become aware of these beings and their doings, they are usually caused to forget about them soon afterward. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Apr 2015 17:37:10 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 20:50:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
About Valkyries, in Poetic Edda, a Volva(witch/seer) told Odin that Valkyries come from "far away".
And while indeed Valkyries weren't winged, they were asociated with birds(mainly ravens and swans).
Valkyries were even sometimes identical with Swan Maidens, with Valkyries taking form of Swans.
And originaly, Valkyries rode giant winged wolves. Pretty cool, isn't it?]
Just curious here - which source has Valkyries riding winged wolves?
I recall them having swan-feather cloaks that allowed them to fly or turn into swans, but having winged wolves is new to me. Is this in one of the Eddas?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 00:00:36
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In Helgakvi#240;a Hundingsbana I, Sigrun's is suggested to a have wolf mount, and on the Rök Runestone, Valkyries are outright said to raid wolves.
They aren't explicedly called winged(I may have overstated that one), but probably were capable of flight. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2020 : 16:57:53
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So I would differentiate between Tethen, Talfir, and Tethyrian.
(Tethen is a word that first appeared in FR10 - Old Empires in reference to slaves from the west, but I like the term.)
To my mind, Tethen was the ethnic group of tribes in what is now Tethyr and Amn.
Talfir was the ethnic group of tribes west of the Sunset Mountains, south of the High Moor, and north of Amn.
Tethyrian is the melting-pot ethnic group composed of Tethens, Talfir, and Low Netherese who fled southwest.
I'm also thinking that Ebenfar was not an empire in a conventional sense, much like Mordor is not much of a kingdom. Instead, Ebenfar was a hunting grounds in which the far-off Shadowking (who lived in the middle of the High Moor) tormented and terrorized an entire population for 300 or so years. Basically think of it as hunting grounds for the shadevari avatars and similar creatures of shadow.
The humans of this region (who would be mostly Talfir-Netherese, with Tethen blood added later) formed small nomadic tribes that basically wandered around trying to survive and avoid detection by the shadevari. Pretty nightmarish place.
I think Ebenfar stretched from Shavinar (last of the Chionthar kingdoms and never quite conquered ere it fell) and the Reaching Woods. I'm not sure yet what existed in Sunset Vale, but it might have been a giant-ruled kingom. (Still noodling on this.)
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2020 : 22:15:12
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| Thank you for the answer Eric, I wondered a long time about this, and it makes sense re-reading the lore. |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2020 : 02:00:12
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| I'll just add that when I wrote the original language article it was in the middle of the 2E era. There have been a lot of books (novels and game) that have come out since and have resulted in a number of changes (honestly the FR wiki does a nice job trying to jive it all). With that, IIRC, I believe my original thinking on druidic was 'why do all the druids speak the same language. That's kinda weird but neat. OK, maybe its because the gods of nature taught it to all of them, much like the nonhuman gods were often credited with teaching their people language.' So, again IIRC, I was thinking less about possible ethnic links with druidic than religious/primal/whatever. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2020 : 09:26:43
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That makes sense, and it's even a bit similar to what Krash stated.
And thank for finding time to clarify it! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2022 : 19:20:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
So I would differentiate between Tethen, Talfir, and Tethyrian.
(Tethen is a word that first appeared in FR10 - Old Empires in reference to slaves from the west, but I like the term.)
To my mind, Tethen was the ethnic group of tribes in what is now Tethyr and Amn.
Talfir was the ethnic group of tribes west of the Sunset Mountains, south of the High Moor, and north of Amn.
Tethyrian is the melting-pot ethnic group composed of Tethens, Talfir, and Low Netherese who fled southwest.
I'm also thinking that Ebenfar was not an empire in a conventional sense, much like Mordor is not much of a kingdom. Instead, Ebenfar was a hunting grounds in which the far-off Shadowking (who lived in the middle of the High Moor) tormented and terrorized an entire population for 300 or so years. Basically think of it as hunting grounds for the shadevari avatars and similar creatures of shadow.
The humans of this region (who would be mostly Talfir-Netherese, with Tethen blood added later) formed small nomadic tribes that basically wandered around trying to survive and avoid detection by the shadevari. Pretty nightmarish place.
I think Ebenfar stretched from Shavinar (last of the Chionthar kingdoms and never quite conquered ere it fell) and the Reaching Woods. I'm not sure yet what existed in Sunset Vale, but it might have been a giant-ruled kingom. (Still noodling on this.)
--Eric
THREADUS RESURRECTUS!!
Thanks, again, Eric. You provided a key bit of information that is going to allow me to complete a history of the Shadowstar.
The reason Ebenfar was located where it was is because there is a natural nexus to the Plane of Shadow there that opens only during certain new moons. It is only then that the Shadevari could bypass the magic that locked them out of Toril. They would come across and do the hunting that you mentioned. It was their predations of the gnomes that caused Nebelun and Segojan (who as the gnome god of magic at the time) to work together and create the Brightstar. This was given to the gnomes of the Trielta Hills to keep the Shadevari out and thus protect the gnomes living there. Nebelun was later subsumed by Gond which is why it is said that Gond created it when he actually didn't.
Later, Azuth "acquired" the Brightstar and modified it as a means to permanently entrap the Shadevari. Once the Shadevari entered the Brightstar, some of their power "leaked" into the Brightstar and that is what changed it to give it the shadow powers it has now as the Shadowstar.
Later, the Shadowking is able to force open that "Shadow Nexus" more often with the Shadowstar and allow not only the shadow creatures to roam about and hunt but also let out lesser versions of the Shadevari (pseudo-avatars) to hunt as well. If the Shadevari are able to gather enough "lifeforce" from their hunts, they will be able to break open the Shadowstar and get their permanent release.
As to what kept Ebenfar out of Sunset Vale, I am proposing it was indeed a giant kingdom: The Kingdom of Guldym. That way, the Talfir people could settle down in the Chionthar Valley betweem the Sunset Mountains and elven trade post of Sulduskoon into an agrarian society. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Chondathan and Talfir
