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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:22:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
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Well, it pretty heavily implied in Races of Faerun, that Talfiric culture and language, were those of ancient Tethyr culture, that got overtime overriden by Chondathan, Illuskan, Calishyte and Netherese. George Krashos even commented in this thread, that he thinks(and has in his home campaign) that the (human)peoples who lived in areas of Keltomir, were in fact Talfiric.
That's not actually what Races of Faerun says--it is reversed.
"...the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril, Calishite settlers from the south, and Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast." - Races of Faerun (pg. 109) <snip>
This actually backs-up some of my supposition - it clearly states that the Talfir peoples were 'driven out' by Netherease, and we have it in canon that the Netherease took-over the Thaeravel lands. Not saying they are necessarily speaking of the same thing, but it is a distinct possibility.
Also, I am speaking in 'broad strokes' here. There really is no such thing as a 'wholly evil' or 'wholly good' society. i am sure most think they are 'good', and probably are near their beginning. Time has a way of corrupting everything (entropy works on social systems as well).
Thus, I picture a few Thaeraveli Sorcerers (the TRUE 'Sorcerer Kings' we later hear about in regards to Netheril) practicing 'shadowy' forms of magic, amongst others. This tradition, I believe, has something to do with the region these people are from (central Western Heartlands), and could be traced back to any number of things (The Dawn Cataclysm, Sundering, Dark Disaster, a plummeting 'Cosmic Muffin' from Outer space, etc, etc). As with any large group of semi-nomadic people, you would have differing levels of 'shadowy' dealings amongst the shamans and other magic users (I picture a dark cult growing in secret).
When Netheril invaded Thaeravel and mind-reamed them for their magic, I would imagine Telamont targeting specific Sorcerers who's magic greatly interested him, and the rest, as we say, "is history". Other Netherese Archmagi would have targeted other Sorcerers Towers and had other goals in mind, and I would imagine many of the more kind-hearted ones (because Netheril - like Thaeravel - was not 'wholly evil') may have simply annexed Thaeraveli towns and folk, incorporating them into their empire (because the Netherese would have only needed to kill the Sorcerers, not the commoners - commoners are a resource, and the Netherese were not stupid). in fact, I think this may have even been part of the whole 'high' and 'low' Netherese thing (true-born Netherese vs peoples they conquered). I would think only families that could trace their lineage back to Seventon would be allowed to dwell in the Sky cities.
So it wasn't an 'all or nothing' type of thing - it was a few bad seeds in one kingdom practicing 'dark arts', and then some other 'bad seeds' from an expanding empire wanting that knowledge for themselves. This is almost entirely theory, but based on a a lot of loose facts strewn about - some very important ones from the Stonelands material, which indicate there were two groups with cities in the region who hated each other and worshiped different gods. This is why I think the common people became absorbed into the empire (as lower-class citizens), and also shoe-horns nicely with what we know about how the religions were in-flux during that time period (and could also help to sweep a few continuity glitches under the table - different cities that were rivals would have completely different written records of certain events - like which god was important when).
The capital of Thaeravel was Rasiltih, which is clearly well within Netheril's southern border. Thaeravel would have had to been in the region of the stobelands/Goblin Marches. In fact, considering how early-on the Netherese took-out the Thaeraveli in their history, one could theorize that the Netherese borrowed quite a bit of their culture from them, in much the same way the Romans did from the Greeks. Ebenfar may have actually been a 'survivor state' of Thaeravel - the people who fled the invasion and didn't want to fall under Netheril's rule. Choosing the High moor for their new capital would have been smart, since the place has always been a cauldron of chaotic and dead magic since the Crown Wars - something the Netherese would have preferred to avoid.
So, as you can see, my view of the history of Faerūn is more of a "step back and see the big picture" kind of thing. I never liked the way the history has always been presented in isolated chunks, when thats not how history happens - everything is interrelated. People and civilizations don't simply disappear - they become something else, and in the process affect everyone and everything else around them.
Now, as for who founded Thaeravel - I have it where a certain High Artificer did, after he fled his homeland (he had recently discovered a 'shadow power source' himself, and his colleagues were beginning to scrutinize his work more then he liked). He couldn't find any of the purple stone his people were fond of, but there was some very nice alabaster material that would do. Of course, the official histories say he was in 'suspended animation' at the time... but I know thats just what he wanted us to think. 
That last part is PURE homebrew, because I like it, and not based on ANYTHING canon (in fact, it sort of goes against it a bit, as I just mentioned above). I just like to think that it was around that time Larloch noticed Hilather, and may have even instigated the call for arms against Thaeravel (which guys like Telamont would have jumped all over). I like to draw connections between everything... because that just how stuff works. 
Just because HE was in suspended animation doesn't mean that Clone(HE) or Shadow (HE) didn't become activated and run rampant until finally being killed off. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Also, Jergal, almost certainly started out as a Spellweaver/Chultian deity.
Well, for that Adventure Path he did. I wouldn't be so sure going forward ...
-- George Krashos
I don't recall the adventure, but it COULD be that Thri-Kreen near Chult may have had some links to worshipping Jergal. Spellweavers are kind of insect-like. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if there weren't some spellweavers down in the Shaar either. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2015 : 22:43:05
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I'd like to tell you more but I'm hoping something I wrote a while ago might see the light of day sometime soon.
And yes, I agree with sleyvas that the thri-kreen of the Shaar may have some links to worshipping Jergal.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 03:18:00
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^^^  ^^^
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just because HE was in suspended animation doesn't mean that Clone(HE) or Shadow (HE) didn't become activated and run rampant until finally being killed off.
Actually, I was thinking it was the clone that he placed in suspended animation, and he would have left-behind 'clues' for others to find to make sure they all thought it was him. Toward the end of Imaskar, I think many of the Artificers were dabbling in 'other forms' of magic, because of their access to to the multiverse, which eventually lead to several disasters of various proportions. Halaster's discovery of a 'shadow power' source (the proto-Shaoweave?) he would have wanted to keep secret, and it would have made sense for im to 'fake his own death' (animation) to keep the others from looking for him. He then settled in a remote valley (with some of his followers) amongst a group of fairly primitive folk (Talfir) and continued his studies. In fact, I think he chose that region (Southern Anauroch/Goblin marches) because that particular area had a higher concentration of that power source.
Thus, the rise of Netheril to the North may have just been an unfortunate accident, or it may have just been those sneaky, pesky elves interfering again (or even the Sarrukh... or both), steering 'lowly humans' who dared to dabble in powerful magic into an inevitable confrontation. So, Halaster may have reinvented himself again, as a Netherese, and later actually founded the Sargauth (sp?) Enclave (to which he eventually returned well after Netheril's fall).
All really homebrewed conjecture on my part, but I like the idea of all those clever, powerful geniuses all trying to out-maneuver one another. Larloch may have been the only one to have guessed Halaster's true identity.
As for the timeline problems concerning Telamont - not really a big deal. If Telamont wasn't in on the destruction of Thaeravel, he may have come across the information later, either in 'forbidden tomes' that were seized, or from ruins he was plundering. As I said, I don't think the worship of 'dark powers' was universal amongst the Thaeraveli, but it wasn't exactly frowned-upon, either - I'm pretty certain Loviatar came from their pantheon, and managed to oust Kiputtyo from her perch in the Netherese one (which probably came from the east with migrating Raumvari peoples).
I just like to think that the whole thing with Halaster slowly being corrupted by Shar took a REALLY long time. I also like to associate Sorcery with 'Southern Magic', so I like the idea that those strange traditions originated with the Imaskari (and then on into the Old Empires), whereas classic magical traditions of study and memorization (Vancian Casting) came from the Netherese acquiring of the Nether scrolls. The Nether scrolls themselves were a collection of 'magical traditions' (formulae) for spell casting gathered together by three of the Creator races (and I still maintain there must be a 3rd set), whereas the Imaskarkana were based off stuff the early Imaskari got from the more 'free wheeling' Fey (no memorized formulas - just picture the end result in your mind and push enough power into that desire). Sorcery also lends itself to newer types of magical power for that very reason - it isn't all learned by rote. And finally, I identify sorcerers with a more Arabian feel, and most likely the proto-Imaskari (Muhjuri) themselves came from Zakhara.
Thus, the Thaeraveli Mages were the real 'Sorcerer kings', until the Netherese destroyed them and stole their thunder (and knowledge). Even those Scepters the Netherese were known for sounds more like a southern (artificer) technology (and note they did not need the power of a Mythallar).
Its all just lots and lots of loose-ends and stray-bits I've strung together. Most of this started with the Kara-Tur and Hordelands projects, which made me flesh-out Imaskar's history quite a bit more, so there still a lot of stuff I haven't even touched upon here. Some of it even helps explain why so many regions in Faerūn have a 'Middle-Eastern' feel to them (the Muhjuri people fleeing the 'scattering of Fate').
To me, The Forgotten Realms are more then just a collection of stories - its is a collection of smaller stories laid on top of a larger tapestry of grander stories (history), and its all inter-related. You pull at one thread, and watch the whole thing begin to unravel. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2015 13:23:17 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 08:54:07
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Well i dont normally go for pure theory threads but the points Aldrick made about the origin myths are interesting.
I like the idea of Shar and Selune both belonging to Sharsstrune (or whatever its called). However i have a different take on it that mixes all the origin myths so bear with me while i ramble. The reason for mixing them all is that most origin myths on earth are copies of one another involving similar themes told from a different point of view.
The Sarrukh origin myth involves the separating of the world serpent into various aspects. The human myth involves the separating of Shar and Selune and the igniting of the sun.
Now the sarrukh had human slaves so its likely the human myth is a copy and corruption of the sarrukh one.
So first things first. You cannot have gods without worshippers. So in the beginning the world serpent was not a god. Second of all is there is evidence supporting a war between primordials (asgoroth trying to destroy Toril, the appearance of Omo. We know Toril went through an ice age. There is also some pinpoints to a previous sun that was eliminated. And finally i'm pretty sure on numerous occasions that Ed and others have hinted that the ancient deities are not even human, they are just portrayed as human to appeal to their majority of worshippers.
So what if prior to the ice age Toril was covered with primordial beings. It was a time before the weave so magic was raw and dangerous such that any lesser being would be disintegrated by mere contact with it. So there were no lesser races (sarrukh, human, aearie, batrachi, faerie).
Imagine one of these primordials as a multi headed hydra like creature called Merrouroboros, each of his heads had its own personality, each one corresponding to the various Sarrukh deities we have now.
This primordial along with many others (like Omo and the ones in Laerakond and the one beneath Gauntlgrym) get involved in a war. Who knows what the war was about, maybe it was as simple as one set of primordials is from one continent and another set is from Faerun - it doesnt matter. This is the basis for the War of Light and Darkness.
At some point the sun is extinguished, or diminished (our own sun goes through cycles of activity so why not a fictional sun doing it in the extreme). Again it doesnt matter how, i dont go in for any nonsense about big serpents swallowing it, but Shadevari manipulating the primordials into war and covering the sun in shadow seems like a nice idea.
Cue -370000 and the sun explodes into view once more. The lesser races start appearing (the raw magic is probably subdued by the cold temperatures and lack of life on Toril from the ice age - life = magic in Toril) and the war reignites (although there are much fewer primordials now). Merrouroboros is shattered around -34900 (it says 100 years after -35000 that the sarrukh covers all of faerun so that seems like the height of their empire and Merrouroboros was shattered at the height of the sarrukh civilisation) probably in a fight with another primordial or perhaps in a disagreement with itself.
The shattering isnt complete and some creatures like Ssharsstrune's precursor (Shekinester) are still joined to multiple heads. While helping the sarrukh to craft the Nether Scrolls and create the Weave this dual headed being gets in an argument with itself and blasts itself in two - Ssharstrune (Shar) and Sstrune (Selune), and a third byproduct that will later be called Mystryl which is also the weave.
Again it doesnt matter about the small details because this is all corrupted into myth and legend from millennia ago so they are bound to be inaccurate (the creation date for the golden skins of the world serpent at -29500 being too late for the above scenario to work is probably because they were the last set of nether scrolls to be created).
During this time period the various primordial creatures begin to ascend to deity status through the worship of the lesser races. Ssharsstrune/Shekinester and the various aspects are just the Sarrukh's way of making sense of the mess that resulted from the splitting of Shar, Selune and Mystryl (although that isnt their original names). The differing portfolios is just down to clerical misinterpretation.
So we have the extinguished sun, its reignition, fragmentation of the world serpent, war of light and darkness, and creation of mystryl and the weave all in one. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 09:45:40
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Good argument dazzlerdarl, as indeed, the thruthis most often somewhere in between.
Also
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
[
quote:
Originally found in Netheril: Empire of Magic, pg. 87
The citizens of Shade built a mosque dedicated to the treacherous aspect of Tyche in 2714. They used her vengeful nature to benefit their goals while using the luck aspect of Tyche to weigh the result in their favor. The mosque was a mass of priests vying for supremacy over a congregation that was out for nothing more than a fuller pocket and revenge for anyone whose activities threatened theirs. One thing that kept them together was anger and suspicion against the church of Tyche in Imbrue.
...
Am I the only one who thinks this "vengeful aspect of Tyche", is some proto form of Beshaba, that fully separated, because of Moander's taint? I wanted to post about this for a looooong time, but always forgot. Thanks for reminding me Aldrick! |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 10:22:35
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dazzlerdal -
I agree that the "original" deities in the Realms, like the World Serpent, are likely primordial in origin. I don't believe that the Realms started with any deities, and the existence of the Weave is unnecessary for primordials to work magic.
My difference in opinion is more on approach. I don't personally like to have the battles and conflicts take place between the deities themselves, and instead place the conflicts between their mortal followers whenever possible. Even in some cases where the text is explicit in stating that the deities were literally fighting it out. For example, in the case of the War of Light and Darkness, and even in the case of the defeat of Garagos by Tempus. Whenever possible, due to personal preference, I like to shove the deities into the background and claim that the war took place on the mortal world between mortals with the deities sort of pulling the strings behind the scenes.
Of course, I realize this is undermined by pretty much all the post-Time of Troubles material, where deities were literally knocking off one another left and right every few years or so. However, I try and hand wave this inconsistency by saying that the Time of Troubles and the destruction of the Tablets of Fate was the cause of this, and this in turn leads to the events of the Sundering where Ao is recreating the Tablets to fix this problem. It is quite obvious to anyone who reads the lore that prior to the Time of Troubles there were long periods of time -- hundreds upon hundreds of years -- where things like we see post-ToT just never happened. The only thing we have even close to it is the Dawn Cataclysm, but that is easily explained as happening between mortals rather than the deities themselves (as I did so earlier in the thread).
Anyway, this is a personal preference thing. So, going back to the World Serpent, I believe it started out as a primordial. Going prior to the Sarrukh takes us into a time of mythology where anything could have happened, because it is before any published dates. However, we do have hints that primordials were once very active on Toril. The tribal Sarrukh worship the World Serpent as a monotheistic deity. This gives the World Serpent enormous power, and I believe that the World Serpent may have created the first proto-Weave and taught it to the Sarrukh.
This is backed up by the Serpent Kingdoms, pg. 59: "According to sarrukh mythology, the World Serpent came to the sarrukh when they were still savages, offering to teach them the secrets of magic, civilization, and power. All that he demanded in return was that they worship him and offer sacrifices to him. The sarrukh agreed to his terms and were rewarded for their loyalty with great knowledge and power."
So, what I envision is that there are these powerful primordial beings roaming the world, similar to the Seven Lost Gods. The World Serpent is among them, and the sarrukh begin worshiping this primordial, causing it to ascend to divinity (similar to the elemental lords like Kossuth), and it then in turn begins creating the proto-Weave, and teaching the sarrukh the secrets of magic.
Meanwhile, other sentient mortal beings on Toril were also turning to the worship of other primordials who were ascending to divinity as well. This is likely when the split between the primordials and the divine happened, and this attempt to obtain mortal worship may have been some type of arms race between the primordials to grab more and more power over their rivals. What makes the World Serpent unique is that it was able to forge a monotheistic religion.
However, as the sarrukh expand across Toril, as more races are created by them, and others are forced to worship the World Serpent--it cannot be everything to everyone. It is almost the inverse of the rule by Ao that no deity above demigod may hold the same portfolio as another deity in the same sphere of influence. The inverse of that rule would be that no single deity can be everything to everyone, and thus inevitably the World Serpent starts to break apart. This means that at least one aspect of the World Serpent is going to end up with control of the Weave. I think the Naga Deities (Ssharstrune, Shekinester, and Parrafaire) are the best case for that, due to their high inclination and innate abilities with magic.
Fast forward, and have some humans stumble upon ruins of ancient Naga. From that they would develop primitive knowledge of magic, and learn about the Naga deities, but worship them in a corrupted and heretical form. This is just the easiest way for us to draw the line from the beginning of recorded history (starting with the sarrukh) to the present day that keeps the Weave intact.
While I think the argument could be made that any deity could have created the Weave, I think it was the World Serpent due to the creation of the Nether Scrolls. Keeping in mind, of course, that the scrolls are said to be the "Golden Skins of the World Serpent" and the Netherese clearly used Weave based magic which they clearly developed from studying the Nether Scrolls... it seems like the most logical conclusion.
Anyway, this kinda goes off base from what you wrote, Dazz. 
I do think that the myths hold grains of truth, in the sense that they may reference events that took place, though perhaps not literal events. For example, using the War of Light and Darkness, Shar and Selune are odd deities. Reading it, it almost appears as if they are a single deity, and yet at the same time the text wants to paint them as two separate deities right from the beginning. It is almost as if the text disagrees with itself by calling Shar and Selune the "Two-Who-Were-One" and then saying they "became divided." Divided against herself? Was she a single deity with a split personality? What is going on here? A single deity with two aspects? The easiest explanation is to look at it from the mortal perspective, and view the cult of Shar and Selune as once being a single unified cult that then had a major schism. The schism fractured the deity into two distinct aspects. If the deity was once a single deity, where did it originate?
The idea that it was Ssharstrune came to me by accident, as I was looking at the names one day. It just suddenly jumped out at me that "Ssharstrune" sounds a lot like "Shar-Selune" -- that is how the thought came to me. The only problem with the idea is that Ssharstrune is very different from any combination of Shar and Selune, which is why I think the original cult likely compiled all the aspects of the Naga deities into one being that they called Sharselune or Shar-Selune.
This has the ironic effect of making Shekinester and Parrafaire aspects of either Shar, Selune, or Mystra or some combination of the three. Perhaps, Selune is really Shekinester now, and is worshiped under that alias by the naga, and Parrafaire is an alias of Mystra. All of this can become convoluted really quickly. However, there is precedent of deities operating like this throughout the Realms with Oghma as Curna, Mystra as the Hidden One, Chauntea as the Earthmother, and pretty much every deity worshiped by the Bedine of the Anauroch. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 10:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Am I the only one who thinks this "vengeful aspect of Tyche", is some proto form of Beshaba, that fully separated, because of Moander's taint? I wanted to post about this for a looooong time, but always forgot. Thanks for reminding me Aldrick!
No, that thought occurred to me as well. However, I went with it being a heretical front cult for Sharrans because... well...we know how Shade ended up. There was no Tyche when they returned.
Plus, that is how Sharrans typically operate.
Although... it could point to the fact that Sharrans were behind the original heresies that ultimately led to the development of the aspect of Beshaba from Tyche which was caused by Moander's corruption of her.
...the question is, of course, did Moander *ACTUALLY* corrupt Tyche herself, or did Moander's faithful merely find a way to corrupt her mortal worshipers, perhaps playing upon the divides already existing within the cult that were originally created by the Sharran's? Perhaps the Sharrans and the Moanderites were working together, as this is always seen as a major blow to Lathander, and it seems that he blames Shar for the failure of the Dawn Cataclysm. This is when the split happened. The split could have been in the works for centuries before it actually took place. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 10:50:43
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I'm with you on the war between deities. Metaphysical beings cannot fight. Avatars can fight, worshippers can fight, everything else is just make believe.
Thankfully for me the war occurs before gods and so is just a disagreement between a few primordials that escalates out of control and has them ally with each other into two groups.
No gods exist at this point in time and cant because there are no lesser races around to worship (i actually have it that the primordials create the lesser races in their own image like Annam and the giants).
What the Sarrukh believe now is based upon millennia old tradition (and indeed many of them fled to the outer planes for a long time. It likely has no bearing to the reality, bearing in mind that deities are (or should be) shaped by their worshippers. The majority of worshippers of all Faerunian deities are human so the human belief is true.
The whole 5 aspects of Shekinester (with Ssharsstrune listed as an additional aspect but doesnt say if it is one of the 5) is just nonsense to me and i think it may have been true around -35000 to -33000 DR (although i cannot envisage how), but now Shar is just Shar and Selune is just Selune, etc because several million humans on the planet believe it so. The Sarrukh can pray to whatever they want to call it but its either Shar, Selune, or Mystra answering them (i think the aspects likely correlate each to a combination of the different deities, although which one is receiving the power from such worship will be known only by Shar, Selune, or Mystra, and indeed it isnt important).
Of course some of the Sarrukh deities never transferred over into human worship and so remain as they were largely unchanged (Sseth for one) and probably nearly dead from lack of worshippers.
I'm not sure however that a monotheistic religion is entirely accurate. The 3 empires of the sarrukh were separate and very different. The sarrukh down in Chult had human slaves, Okoth and Isstossessifil did not. Najara is the only realm to worship Shekinester or Ssharsstrune. The Okoth Sarrukh are the only ones to have encountered Jazirian who could indeed have been from another world or some kind of powerful outsider at first. Sseth only appeared relatively recently (-339 DR ish) and was a yuan-ti so he is previously unknown to the Okoth sarrukh who only returned this century. Merrshaulk was supposedly created from the fragmentation of the world serpent (listed as being called Amphisbaena and only worshiped in Lapaliiya) which happened at the height of the empire so how did an empire come to be named after a god that did not exist yet.
The canon history of Sarrukh deities is largely unknown and is a summary of what information they choose to impart (or can recall themselves after 30000 years) and given their geographic distances i find it hard to believe they had a single unified pantheon. They were the first race and so likely had geographic pantheons like the humans have now.
Although looking at the name Amphisbaena as the world serpent, i'm pretty sure an amphisbaena is a two headed snake so maybe i wasnt far off with the multiheaded primordial. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 10:59:07
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In the old version of Grand History of the Realms Talfir first appears in -24,000 DR, north of Shantel Othreier. Since then I considered them as one of the cultures elevated by dragons. That explains sorcery and the alphabet. That was in my version of FR, before canon changed. Shadow magic first appeared with Veraketh and was different from the Shadow Weave magic.
Also not sure if it's canon, I've seen somewhere that human tribes in Tethyr and Calimshan were called Mir, not Talfir.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2015 : 12:43:36
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dazzlerdal -
Regarding the fragmentation of the World Serpent and sarrukh monotheism...
I think it is highly likely that the sarrukh were monotheistic in their worship of the World Serpent. If you read the history and the text in Serpent Kingdoms, it becomes clear that the fragmentation happened as a result of them becoming geographically dispersed and developing different cultural ideas.
So, I think you are right that it is hard to believe that they were truly monotheistic, due to their geographical dispersion and differences in culture. However, they obviously did not start out geographically dispersed--that came later.
The first fragmentation of the World Serpent was M'daess. This fragmentation happened as a result of the sarrukh breaking their covenant with the World Serpent. In the beginning the World Serpent expected sacrifices from among the sarrukh themselves, but later the sarrukh decided that the "Scaleless Ones" (humans and the like) should be sacrificed instead, and viewed themselves as too important to be sacrificed. This created a problem in the religion, and it was reconciled with the creation of M'daess, the snake-mother. Her role was to purify the souls of the Scaleless Ones, effectively making their souls equivalent to sarrukh souls in the eyes of the World Serpent.
This meant that the World Serpent was not breaking the covenant it made with the sarrukh. This was how the conflict was solved, by the creation of an aspect of the World Serpent who fixed the theological issue. So this meant that a human being sacrificed to the World Serpent was equivalent to sacrificing a sarrukh, because M'daess purified the humans soul and made him a sarrukh in the afterlife... thus the covenant is upheld.
Merrshaulk, and other aspects clearly came later. It was likely at this point that the World Serpent was fragmenting a great deal. We likely only know the major deities worshiped--the equivalent of very popular Greater Deities in the Faerunian Pantheon. Who can say how many minor (demigod equivalent) aspects there were at one point? You can almost imagine, especially as the sarrukh empires started to collapse, and their slaves as well as their created servants were basically left to their own devices. You end up getting aspects of aspects, and then heresies and schisms on top of it all. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2015 : 13:13:04
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Hmm, seing how M'daess is Neutral Good, I wonder if her start of existence, was a bizarre, and dark start of the concept of goodness. After all, in their death, now scaleless ones, were equall to Sarrukh, and gone to, esentialy paradie, or were joined with the World Serpent.
Other aspects, started to probably fragment further. Jazirian, and Asmodeus, originaly, were probably one being, that symolized/embodied Lawfulness/Order, but split, when the worshippers of the concept of order, started to segregate into Lawfull Good and Lawfull Evil worshippers. Maybe it was even the Jazirian/Asmodeus, who was Parrafaire's father, not the later, Lawful Good Jazirian.
Also, good idea Aldrick, with Moander and Shar jointly corrpting Tyche.
Maybe Moander corrupting Tyche as the flower, was the represation in the divine realm, of the corruption within Tyche's church?
[Edit]
Merrshaulk, might be along with Ramenos, the fragments of the Chaotic Neutral aspect of the World Serpent, that represented chaos. And I think it might have been this Chaotic Neutral aspect, that rivalized with Jazirian/Asmodeus, over Shekinester(originaly the aspect of (Neutrality/Balance?).
[EDIT2]
I suggested that Ramenos and Merrshaulk, are fragments of the same fragment of the Word Serpet, as they share their divine realm, which is surprising, when you consider Merrshaulk/Sseth's tendency to devour, and kill other aspects of the World Serpent.
Asgorath, may be another fragment of the World Serpent, or a "sibling" of it, that maybe separated, before the World Serpent achieved godhood. Io's who's most ofenly identified with Asgorath, was after all alluded to be a fragment of the World Serpent. |
Edited by - Baltas on 17 Mar 2015 06:59:00 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2015 : 10:29:21
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If we link Talfir with Thaeravel, an interesting fact is that Both Talfiri and High Netherese, used the draconic alphabet...
So if Thaeravel was Talfiric, the Netherese quite probably took the script from them. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2015 : 16:10:25
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Haven't been following most of the main theme this thread has headed down, but it sounds like you guys are coming up with a LOT of the same conclusions I (and others) have - that the world serpent's splitting is representative of some actual, physical event to the planet - the Sundering, most likely (the first one - not the commercial hype one we got recently). There was a group of early proto-gods (Primordials?) who had some sort of dispute and the First world got ruined in the process - thats what all these myths point to. Each is a little different because each was written/remembered by a different faction in that original event, each with their own agenda.
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Also not sure if it's canon, I've seen somewhere that human tribes in Tethyr and Calimshan were called Mir, not Talfir.
I forget precisely where (and whom) that reference is too, but I do know for a fact that the Tunlands tribes ARE referred to as 'Mir' as well. I am currently looking for that source - its not in either of the two places I thought it would be, so its a lot more obscure.
As a side not, they are considered 'of the same people' originally as the barbarians of The Ride, but those are called Eraka (probably just a tribal distinction originally).
As for the southern branch of Mir - that had to do with the Forest of Mir, IIRC, so I would start looking there. I think there may have been a kingdom of Mir as well. Could be the original (primitive) tribes in the western heartlands were 'Mir', much like our RW early Celtic peoples, and the 'people of the Lion' north of the Lake of steam could be related as well (another group of horse barbarians, but with some obvious cultural influences from Calimshan/Zakhara).
Just throwing this out there - the 'Mir' could easily take the place of my theoretical 'Dathite' people, as well as what Brian James referred to as 'Talfir' in his original GHotR (the Talfir being just one branch of a larger neolithic group). The one major difference between them and the RW Celts culturally would be a heavy use of horseback riding, more like the RW Botai and later Bactrian peoples. I could see this having been a technological influence (animal husbandry) of being survivors of the earlier draconic Empires that stuck with them during their fall back into primitiveness, and reverse of our RW, it could have spread south into Zakhara and even into Kara-Tur. There are also horse-riders in northern Maztica (Anchoromé), but that was probably a later development and came about in much the same way as it did in the Americas (cross-cultural pollination - there are at least two sources that indicate K-T migrations to Maztica).
When trying to build a 'historic map' of FR and its peoples, you have to consider flora and fauna as well - they play a major part in how people develop. Horses are kind of a big deal, and it seems we do have some evidence of several early, Western Heartlands cultures using them. I would also assign any 'gods' that have no known origin to these folk (like many of our FR-specific deities).
There is also a (Hindu-esque) people called 'Mar' down in the Utter East, but they are completely unrelated.
EDIT: Mir, Gur, Talfir... hmmmm... now I am starting to think of two separate groups again, and a history actually closer to our own. If the Gur (later Mir) came out of the Hordelands as I theorize the proto-Netherese did, then they would have encountered - and conflicted with - the early Western heartlands people, whomever they were. Rather then one culture similar to both the Celts and the Bactrians, there were (at least) two, and they could have come into contact over thousands of years, and inter-mixed to varying degrees (along with other ethnicities), giving us the hodgepodge of peoples we have today. The Eraka of The Ride could be a more 'culturally pure' version of the eastern group, whilst the Ffolk of the Moonshaes could be more 'pure' version of the western aboriginal humans. The draconic civilizations would have kept this from happening, but once they fell history would have taken a more natural course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2015 16:29:51 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2015 : 08:45:05
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Indeed Markustay, your writtings about Dathites, were one of the major inspirations for this thread existence.
Also, maybe the "Mir", and "Mar", were originaly one group in prehistory of Toril, they just separated very early on, maybe even during the Times of Thunder. The Mar, would mix with the Muhjuri/Zakharans, to create the Durpari people(including Imaskari), while other, ethnicaly "purer" tribes went more north, and became the Ruamvirans, Rashemi, and Gurri.
This would be similar how the Indo-European branches of languages, are split into Centum and Satem groups, with Centum encompasing Greek, Latin, Romance, Germanic and Celtic languages, and Satum, encompasing Slavic, Baltic, and Indo-Iranian languages.
Also, Brian James, in his original Grand History of Realms, proposed that part of the Iluskans/Azu-Possi, stayed on the North-Western part of the Faerunian continent.
Maybe this branch, developed into the original Ice Hunters(before mixing with Kara-Turians) and Rengarth peoples, possibly by mixing with other groups, like Mar, and Gurri, over the ages. |
Edited by - Baltas on 25 Mar 2015 14:50:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2015 : 16:31:11
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I had - a long time ago - proposed two distinct, advanced (for their time) peoples in the North of Toril, one located in The North (Western Heartlands) and the other in the northern fringes of the Hordelands, around Yal Tengri. Ed had even said that The Great Ice Sea does indeed connect to the Sea of Floating Ice (around Icewind Dale), and works much like the Northwest passage did/does on Earth. These two groups would have been Torillian versions of The Norse and the Fins, and would have interacted up in those far northern waters (which have been frozen-over and melted several times over the course of milenia, sometimes for centuries at a time).
I still kept a piece of that in my Toril-Fins, and they were the group the ethnicity Raumvari (Lake of Steam/Raumathar, Rashemen, aboriginal Thayan, Nar, Sossal, etc) developed from, after they themselves were pushed south from the western fringes of the Ama basin (where the evil kingdom of Pohjola arose). This part has gone beyond theory and conjecture deep into the 'homebrew' zone.
I had to drop my line of thought for the Toril-Norse, however, because they were NOT native to that region - they actually came from the south! They worked their way up the coast and settled the islands and Sword Coast North (mixing with the native peoples, who may or may not been our Mir/Gur people). I had asked Ed where they came from, discerning no logical source (that very large island down near Katashaka?), and he hinted that they may not even be native to Toril, which would indicate a very large and once-highly active portal somewhere south of the Swordcoast - perhaps he had thought to connect them to whatever continent he had envisioned 'to the west' (Anchoromé was an island chain in Ed's Realms), and the published Realms made their origin odd (because we got Maztica and that large northern landmass instead). Hell, for all we know, thats what native Katashakans might look like (southern Katashaka does come fairly close to the southern pole, so it would have a similar climate to Xendrik - steamy jungles and savannas to the north, and frigid regions along the south).
However, if we go with the idea that they are not Toril natives, then they may very well be actual Vikings... although I see very little cultural resemblance aside from some cosmetic issues. It would explain the presence of Tyr... but what of the other Norse gods? (unless my theory about Annam being Odin 'the all-father' is correct, but then we have the Norse pantheon arriving at the wrong time... or do we?) Placing the Twilight Giants story further along Toril's timeline (as I've wanted to do for some time) would prove useful here. (I had much more here, but realized I had crossed into yet-another set of theories)).
Not sure what to do with them; Ed would know, but he's not telling. I wouldn't mind saying ALL 'Norse' (RW and Torillian) actually came from yet-another 'Viking World' (Midgard?), but I've used a similar device to explain the vast number of similarities between (*cough* Derivative *cough*) Kara-Tur and our on RW Asia (culture, religion, appearance, language, etc, etc... they even have a friggin' wall!) In my homebrew musing, the Celestial Bureaucracy ruled over a Crystal Sphere that had a cataclysm, and those people became refugees on a dozen or more worlds (which also explains 5 Rings/Rokugan, etc). I don't know how RW Asians would feel about me making them 'aliens', but this IS the D&D Earth I am talking about here.
Hmmmm... maybe those early 'Viking' ships (from Midgard?) were actually some sort of Rune-empowered Planesjammers? Maybe they had done all they could on their world, and found a way to "go a'viking" (raiding) on other worlds? That would be both different and interesting. Planer Vikings... thats kind of cool. Then we could even use the Sundering (or some other magical apocalypse) to explain why those ships stopped working, and they all got stranded on whatever worlds they were on at the time. Would be neat to have a party of adventurers find and figure out how to get one of those planes-hopping longships working again! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2015 16:37:32 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2015 : 16:03:14
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My personal view of Norse Mythology and the realms is that they were one of the early interloper races of humans (NOT from earth). They also were NOT part of the creator races.... they were just another subset of humans located on Toril. They also became spread out via portals, and thus various groups brought different deities to different areas. They experienced their version of Ragnarok long ago fighting against Annam and his brood, as well as the death goddess with light and dark halves (Selune/Shar or Ssharrstrune?). As a result, some of their deities exist in Toril still, but possibly changed. Some came in as entirely different names. For instance, I like the idea that Valigan Thirdborn who was known to be in Jhaamdath before Tyr returned... who appears to be a chaos / corruption based god.... is actually this reality's version of Loki Laufeyson... and that he is actually a giant deity who has interloped to become a human deity by allying with the Norse deities long ago. Noting, this does match with Norse lore, in that Loki is the son of Farbauti and Laufey, and he has brothers Bżleistr and Helblindi.... so he can be the thirdborn.
Along these lines, the Norse mythology mentions a very nature oriented group (the Vanir) that they war with and then ally with by trading captives (Njord, the ocean god, Freyr, lord of the elves and the Sun, and Freyja, the fertility and love goddess). I submit that these deities may correspond to other Torilian deities (as in the Norse gods of this realm accepted deities of other pantheons for these roles). The question is, are these elven deities... Celtic Pantheon... Finnish Pantheon.... some kind of mix of all three? Njord could be Ulutiu. Freyr could be Lathander. Freyja could be Sune or the elven deity of love.
The last take I have is that there is some kind of long/twisted story with Talos. I've thrown out a lot of ideas over the years pertaining to him, but I keep coming back to one. Personally, I'm of the view that Talos is somehow a twisted amalgam of Odin & Thor (as in Thor gave up his storm powers to Odin after dying to the world serpent, in the process of slaying/breaking up the world serpent). Odin himself died to Kezef the Chaos Hound in this same battle. Somehow or other, Talos comes around later and kind of wears this spear wielding "suit" of Odin, absorbing his portfolios. The how of this matter could make a great story.
Of the other Aesir Norse gods, they're dead except for Heimdall (Helm) and Tyr..... except that they were finally turned upon one another during the spellplague. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2015 : 16:13:29
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| Oh, and another take on this thing is that a lot of these dead deities "bodies" / "essences" are used by Ao and or other deities when promoting mortals to deific status. As a result, they begin to have "bleedover" from past incarnations that the mortal form had no involvment with. So, for instance, in the above, I have that Valigan Thirdborn is Loki... but it could also be that Cyric is ALSO born upon the "essence" of Loki... and slowly he is being manipulated by this past incarnation. Along these lines, the red knight could be using the "essence" of Sif, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2015 : 20:45:44
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Interesting stuff sleyvas, but Freyja was a not only a goddess of fretility and love and she was more like Inanna/Ishtar, rather than Aphrodite(and Sune by extension). Freyja was also a goddess of war, death(in battle, shared the slain with Odin), sorcery. Freyr is also a very nature oriented, and is sometimes described as having antlers(he kills the giant Beli with them, during Ragnarok), like Cernunos, Herne, and Silvanus. Freyr is also described as the lord of the Light Elves.
I wondered if Freyr and Freyja weren't maybe the human/Norse interpretation of Corellon Larethian, who split him into two deties, of two sexes, rather than worship Corellon as an androgenous/hermaphroditic deity.
[EDIT]
And there indeed is possibly a precedence of merging with an old god's, to ascend a mortal, as it's very possible Shevarash was ascended by merging him with Elikarashae. So it's possible Valigan's vestige, was used by Ao to fully ascend Cyric.
Also, about the Northmen, I didn't mean that Rengarth and Ice Hunters are identical with them, only that they share the same ancestors, with now Rengarth, Azuposi, Illuskan, and Ice Hunters, all being descended from the same stock of northern humans.
It's possible that the Norse people(who split later into Illuskans, and possibly Azuposi, and if my theories could be right, Rengarth and Ice Hunters), went to Toril through Batrachi made portals, that possibly transported them in time and space.
And yeah, Talos does seem like a corrupted version of Odin, but I also seen him more as a fusion of Zeus with Odin, rather than Thor and Odin. If one read Greek myths(or played God of War ), Zeus was a pretty cruell deity.
There is a reason why Tv Tropes has Zeus as the picture representing the God is Evil article.
[EDIT2]
To be clear I got my theory about the Rengarth and Ice Hunters being related to the Azuposi and Illuskans, from this fragment from the original Grand History of the Realms:
quote:
In the wake of the Sundering, many human
of Azuposi descent found themselves on mainland Faer#251;n or scattered on newly created islands of the Trackless Sea. By - 3000 DR these humans would become known as the Illuskan people and found the realm of Illusk along the northern shores of the Sword Coast.
I would guess the Azuposi stranded on the islands, became Illuskans, while the Azuposi stranded on the North Western part of Faerun, became the Rengarth and Ice Hunters. Especialy that their location on the map of Faerun - 24,000 DR, fits were Ice Hunters developed.
But that's only my crazy theory... |
Edited by - Baltas on 27 Mar 2015 08:47:43 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2015 : 12:32:59
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Also, as you yourself proposed sleyvas in the Talos - some research into Alias' & real world thread
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
"In the Cretan dialect, talōs was the equivalent of the Greek hźlios, the Sun: the lexicon of Hesychius of Alexandria notes simply "Talos is the Sun". In Crete Zeus was worshipped as Zeus Tallaios"
So I think it's possible Kozah absorbed Odin, and Zeus Tallaios, before becoming Talos we know. The Original Kozah, could be just a god of Elemental destruction, and only got the aspects of a storm god, and god of rebelion, after absorbing/subsuming Zeus and Odin.
[Edit]
So I think that Kozah, could absorb a number of deities.
I think the Chondathan deity he absorbed, possibly of Sun and Storm, could be named "Tallaios". The Talfir deity, could be named Taranis, Tanarus, Taranos, or Tuireann, after the Celtic God of Storms, thunder, or something similar. When the Talfir, Chondathans, and Netherese, started to mix, the names of Tallaios and Taranos, got mixed and confated, created the name "Talos". |
Edited by - Baltas on 30 Mar 2015 00:32:28 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2015 : 15:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Interesting stuff sleyvas, but Freyja was a not only a goddess of fretility and love and she was more like Inanna/Ishtar, rather than Aphrodite(and Sune by extension). Freyja was also a goddess of war, death(in battle, shared the slain with Odin), sorcery. Freyr is also a very nature oriented, and is sometimes described as having antlers(he kills the giant Beli with them, during Ragnarok), like Cernunos, Herne, and Silvanus. Freyr is also described as the lord of the Light Elves.
I wondered if Freyr and Freyja weren't maybe the human/Norse interpretation of Corellon Larethian, who split him into two deties, of two sexes, rather than worship Corellon as an androgenous/hermaphroditic deity.
[EDIT]
And there indeed is possibly a precedence of merging with an old god's, to ascend a mortal, as it's very possible Shevarash was ascended by merging him with Elikarashae. So it's possible Valigan's vestige, was used by Ao to fully ascend Cyric.
Also, about the Northmen, I didn't mean that Rengarth and Ice Hunters are identical with them, only that they share the same ancestors, with now Rengarth, Azuposi, Illuskan, and Ice Hunters, all being descended from the same stock of northern humans.
It's possible that the Norse people(who split later into Illuskans, and possibly Azuposi, and if my theories could be right, Rengarth and Ice Hunters), went to Toril through Batrachi made portals, that possibly transported them in time and space.
And yeah, Talos does seem like a corrupted version of Odin, but I also seen him more as a fusion of Zeus with Odin, rather than Thor and Odin. If one read Greek myths(or played God of War ), Zeus was a pretty cruell deity.
There is a reason why Tv Tropes has Zeus as the picture representing the God is Evil article.
[EDIT2]
To be clear I got my theory about the Rengarth and Ice Hunters being related to the Azuposi and Illuskans, from this fragment from the original Grand History of the Realms:
quote:
In the wake of the Sundering, many human
of Azuposi descent found themselves on mainland Faer#251;n or scattered on newly created islands of the Trackless Sea. By - 3000 DR these humans would become known as the Illuskan people and found the realm of Illusk along the northern shores of the Sword Coast.
I would guess the Azuposi stranded on the islands, became Illuskans, while the Azuposi stranded on the North Western part of Faerun, became the Rengarth and Ice Hunters. Especialy that their location on the map of Faerun - 24,000 DR, fits were Ice Hunters developed.
But that's only my crazy theory...
Yeah, they were very different. But my main thing is that in EARTH mythology, they came from the war with Vanaheim. Nothing says that in Abeir-Toril mythology that a specific war with gods of Vanaheim happens (nothing even says that the Norse deities were here is canon either, just to be clear). However, maybe they had some kind of interaction with the gods of another nature pantheon and adopted them in before their Ragnarok against the giants and primordial happened.
Thus, I present the idea that there weren't actually many Asgardian gods. A lot of what we think of as Asgardian gods were actually interlopers (jotuns, vanir, some other nature deity). Even in the list below, some of those who are listed as Aesir (such as Sif) could easily be interlopers. I state this, because this then becomes that Ragnarok as the "end of the Aesir gods" might just be seen as just another powerful divine conflict in which a lot of deities died..... which corresponds to the Dawn Conflict or whatever its called with the war with the primordial.
Aesir deities:
Odin (the all father, Sky god)
Balder/Baldr (god of light, joy, purity, beauty, innocence, and reconciliation.... and of rebirth, as he is one of the deities that returns from Hel after Ragnarok). He might make a very good Lathander.
Bragi (god of poetry, eloquence & song) - a son of Odin, mother unknown
Forseti (god of laws) - Balder's son. His name means justice, but in actual lore, there are no stories of him providing justice, only providing laws to live by.
Hermod (god of speed) - Odin's son.
Thor (god of thunder and lightning) - although I list Thor as a Aesir deity, technically his mother was a jotun named Jord.
Magni (Thor's son, god of strength) - even moreso than Thor, I list his son as Aesir, but he is more Jotun than Aesir, as their mother is a jotun named Jarnsaxa and not Sif
Modi (Thor's son, god of courage and berserk rage) - mother unknown, assumed to be Sif.
Sif (goddess of Skill in battle) - parentage unknown, so making the assumption that she is Aesir.
Tyr (god of war and justice) - even Tyr is questionable as an Aesir, as there are things stating that both Odin and Hymir (a Jotun) are his father. However, its probably easiest to assume he is Aesir.
Ullr (Uller) - (god of hunting) - Ullr is Thor's stepson by Sif. In theory, if Sif and the father weren't Aesir, then this deity might not be as well.
Vidar (god of strength & vengeance) - son of Odin. Destined to kill the Fenris Wolf & survive Ragnarok.
Giant / Primordial deities/beings:
Aegir (giant "god" of storms & the sea)
Surtur - god of fire giants
Thrym - god of frost giants
Heimdall (the watchman, god of rainbows... he was born of nine jotun maidens)
Loki (god of mischief, strife and fire)- son of Fįrbauti and Laufey, both jotuns, but taken in by the Aesir as a youth.
Fenris Wolf (as a child of Loki's and Angrboda's, both giant born)
Jormungandr (the world serpent, a child of Loki's and Angrboda's, both giant born)
Hela (two-faced death goddess)- (as a child of Loki's and Angrboda's, both giant born)
Skadi - (goddess of bowhunting, skiing, winter, and mountains) giantess who comes to wed Njord when the Aesir slay her father.
Vanir deities:
Njord (god of the sea)
Freyr (god of virility, prosperity, sunshine and fair weather) - destined to be killed by Surtr during Ragnarok
Freyja (goddess of fertility, love, the Valkyries)
Nature deities:
Frigg - (goddess of divination, marriage, childbirth & love) - whether Frigg is actually an Aesir or not is also debatable. I therefore list her as a "nature" deity
Idunn (Goddess of spring, immortal youth and eternal life) - Bragi brings Idunn to Asgard as his wife. It doesn't say where she's from, but she's obviously not an Aesir. She could easily be some Archfey.
Norns (fate goddesses, swan forms when travelling the earth)
Dwarven Deities:
Fjalar |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2015 : 16:33:36
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A very interesting take, although it's theorized that Frigga was originaly identical to Freyja, and only pretty late into the viking era, did they become trully separate. Idunn was similary probably identical with Freyja, and probably started out as an aspect of the Freyja cult, before separating. Although Idunn was separated much earlier, than Freyja, and Frigga.
Freyja, and Vanir, in general in the d&d universe/multiverse/Planescape, are probably related to the Seladrine and Faerie pantheon.
Ullr is theorized to be Vanir in origin, so Sif may also be one of the Vanir.
In Planescape, Eilistraee had her realm in Svartalfheim, the realm of Svartalfar/Dokkalfar.
[EDIT]
Aedrie Fenya's realm, also is part of the time in Alfheim, partialy in Arvandor. The Same Alfheim which Freyr rules, and Light Elves/Lios Alfar live in.
Planescape's Book of Chaos also states, "Some say that Alfheim was once a part of Arvandor, and gradually slid over into Ysgard as its people grew more concerned with honor and survival."
Seeing the connection between Vanir, and Ligh Elves, I think the original Vanaheim, could be in Arvandor. Vanir could be once part of Seldarine, or a very closely related group.
In Monster Mythology, Erevan Ilesere is curiously compared to Loki, with his birth of Eachthighern, being compared to Loki giving birth to Slepnir. Maybe Erevan Ilesere is in reality Loki, who interloped also to the Seldarine? But I think Ereven aspect could get disconnected from Loki, when Loki became much more malevolent, with now Loki and Erevan Ilesere being separete deities. |
Edited by - Baltas on 02 Apr 2015 09:58:23 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2015 : 17:02:14
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And then there is the (RW) theory that Aesir = Assura in Vedic myth. Could the Vanir possibly be the Vedic deities? Are we looking at some fragment of actual history between two very powerful (perhaps even technologically advanced) groups from prehistoric times who were at war? You can almost imagine that the myths of both groups are just two sides of the same story. The Vedic deity Ki also appears in Sumerian mythology, and is VERY similar to MielikKi.
And, of course, the Vedic pantheon IS canon to FR (at least a small portion of it, way over in Malatra).
Which is why I go back to my 'One World' theory, before the Godwar and the Sundering (The Shattering) - we are looking at one great story that has become fragmented and retold so many times by different (surviving) cultures, and spread across many worlds. The Five Creator Races would have 'come into being' on THAT world, and bits and pieces of them survive all over the multiverse in various forms. Humans - whats left of the Blackmoor civilization - would turn out to be the most successful survivor, being the dominant species on most worlds (thanks to their adaptive abilities, although all the Creatori has some sort of ability to adapt to different circumstances/environments).
One of my favorite bits of homebrew lore is where I theorized that Zakhara was originally the home of powerful Rakshasa (similar to how they are in parts of Eberron). The Beastlord Baast grew tired of being Nobanion's (Aslan¹) concubine; she was more adventuress then the stuffy law-giver ("King of the jungle"), and tried to join the Pharonic Pantheon. She was snubbed by them, until the Godwar broke out. Desperate for more troops (cannon-fodder) to throw at the other gods, Ra (Amaunator²) agreed to let her in if she found suitable 'shock troops' for them to use. She then approached a group of neutral fiends - the Khaasta (reptilian demons) and coaxed them to work for the Pharonic gods (using her 'wiles', I suppose). For their part in the Godwar, they asked to be left-alone (unmolested) for all eternity by the Pharonics, and be allowed to settle in certain parts of of the Prime Material after it was all over. Ra reluctantly agreed, but then placed a powerful spell over them all, transforming them into a similar (cat-like) visage as Baast, to forever remind her that she was responsible for what was wrought that day. So Ra's Khaasta - which eventually became Rakshasa - fought for the Pharonic gods, and were allowed to settle in parts of the Prime Material.
However, no-one foresaw the outcome - the destruction of the One, True World, so they became scattered like everyone else. They still wear the feline form Ra forced them in, and the Pharonic deities still leave them be (albeit reluctantly, at times).
One of the areas that they settled was Zakhara, which was a lush africa-like continent back then (jungles, swamps, savannas, etc). They then used their demonic powers to summon elemental lords (Dgen) to serve them... along with the native halfling population. They began to kidnap humans and others (elves, dwarves, etc³) from other regions as well, which would ultimately lead to their undoing. The Dgen Lords eventually figured out how to break free from Rakshasa control and drove them from the continent (into the Yehimals, where they displaced the Dwarves around -16,000 DR).
One thing lead to another, and the Dgen were no better then the Rakshasa at ruling Zakhara, and fell into fighting amongst themselves. The Efreet Lord Memnon was ultimately victorious, driving the others out of Zakhara as the dgen had done to the Rakshasa milenia earlier (which would be when those first Dgen started arriving in Calimshan). Memnon was a cruel master, and burned much of the world in his wrathful rages. Three minor deities of destiny - who normally would only observe and not get involved with mortal affairs - took it upon themselves to right this affront against nature. Merging into one powerful Goddess - Fate - she drove Memnon and his followers from Zakhara as well (and this would be when Memnon finally showed up in Calimshan).
However, around the same time when the Dgen were warring on each other in Calimshan, a human - the first Sha'ir - began to experiment with ways to control the genies and harnass their power for mortal use. Legend (Al-Qadim canon) has it where he struck a deal with the Dgen Lords for their service - one that was mutually beneficial. But when the great Elemental Lords were all driven from Zakhara, the new Sha'ir realized they no longer had to pay homage to them, and began to create their own empires. Dozens rose and fell during that period, and eventually the tripatriate Goddess was forced once-again to act, realizing that she had inadvertently doomed the land to much the same fate as it had originally, but with different 'masters'. So began the 'Scattering of Fate', wherein huge, mobile portals were created to scoop-up all the peoples of Zakhara and deposit them just outside the borders of "The Land of Fate" (Note: this was very similar to how the Imaskari just to the north abducted peoples from other worlds). Most wandered and settled other lands, as did the Muhjuri people that would eventually become the Golden waters tribes and the Imaskari. Some stayed on the fringes of their old lands, settling along the coasts or just outside of Zakhara-proper (there is evidence of Zakharan culture in the Utter East), or on the numerous islands that surround that land. At least four empires arose along the NE of Zakhara around the Sagara Sea, all to eventually fall themselves (some say it is the curse of the Rakshasa, who still work behind-the-scenes in that region, creating all sorts of nasty cults and corrupting the people).
Since the Scattering, there have been several 'eras' of Zakharan history; great empires rise and control most - if not all - of the continent, only to fall back into small warring kingdoms. During these 'lows' much history is lost, and when a new empire arises to take the place of the old and unite Zakhara, it always claims to be the first and only empire. Such is the Narcissism of humanity. The current empire claims Zakharan history only began a thousand years ago... but the rest of Toril knows better. They've even had female Sultans! (This last bit was to fix some continuity problems between FR lore and AQ, and also a minor fix to to the GHotR). However, when you look at their legends it is easy to see that their history goes MUCH further back then they are willing to admit.
Sorry that was so long - that was an uber-fix for a bunch of disparate stuff between FR, K-T (which I left out otherwise this would have been three times the size!), AQ, and The Hordelands. There may have also been some 'temporal anomalies' with the timeline as well (when the Dgen wars were taking place in Zakhara and their arrival in Calimshan). Fate may have had a hand in that - for a time she was considered an 'Overgod' (her power limit went above the normal DvR range for just a god, which is one of the reasons I've spun her as a tripatriate deity)). Take everything here as PURE HOMBREW, rather then conjecture. I've based it on some stray bits of canon I've woven together, but its very little compared to all the stuff I had to 'make-up' from scratch.
¹ I also think Torm is a human aspect of Nobanion.
² Ra = Amun-Ra = Amaunator. The leap is fairly simple to make.
³ The Rakshasa are known to have experimented on people, much like the Creator races, and are responsible for nearly all of the 'cat-like' mortal races around the multiverse. The tabaxi catfolk were actually a tribe of chultan Tabaxi that were kidnapped and breed to their current state (hence the duel-usage of the term - they kept their tribal name for themselves). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 Apr 2015 17:11:26 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2015 : 14:18:32
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Very interesting stuff Markustay.
Although I think the Rakshasa could be originaly celestial servants, under the gods, or to be specific, the 4E Devas. There could be rebellion connected to Baast, and that's why when the Deva transformed into fiends, they became feline Rakshasa.
Especialy that it's notted allready in canon that Mulhorandi gods produced deva, and that fallen Deva, become Rakshasa...
Yeah, I read about the Asura and Aesir connetion, and probable that Aesir emerged from the Asura part of the proto-pantheons. Although in the D&D/Planescape multiverse, I think that Vanir are connected to Archfey, and Seldarine. Freyr, a Vanir god, inherted the rule of Alfheim, showing that Vanir are connected to Alfheim.
And as I wrote before, in the Planes of Chaos, it was theorized that Alfheim was once part of Arvandor. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2015 : 19:48:18
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Well, that was my take some years ago, but it probably needs to be re-tweaked. I try to not over-use the whole 'proto' thing, but thats what those Rakshasa were - proto-Rakshasa, so YES, they could very well have been 'deva' (Celestial Servants). I think close to the beginning (of time), the 'plan' was for everything to be neutral, and each group of celestial (outsider) beings were part of a hierarchy (much like how it is in the Celestial Bureaucracy).
As time went on, and universe went from a 'blank slate' to a highly-detailed setting, some (if not all) of these 'higher beings' began to develop personalities, and formed into 'cliches' (proto-pantheons?) At that time there would have been no concept of 'fiends' or 'angels' (celestials - the later D&D usage of the word), but rather, just groups of beings with various leanings and agendas of their own. All of that terminology would come later, after the Godwar, and the destruction of the First World (when death came into existence).
This would also apply to the Vanir, who would have been a group more about the preservation of 'the natural order' initially, but then slowly split over time into those more concerned about 'natural' (The Feylords) and those more concerned about 'order' - the Rigveda (perhaps some ancient translation of 'inflexible Vanir'?) So what would appear to be separate and distinct groups now were actually part of a singular, larger group which has fragmented (as did all the other 'heavenly hosts').
The Vedic/Hindu deities then moved to Nirvana on the new-established 'Great Ring' (the shape of the universe post-Godwar), whilst their more nature-minded kin moved to Arvandor (Alfheim). Eventually the Vedic Pantheon would be supplanted by their own creations - the Modrons - and Nirvana would be renamed 'Mechanus'.
Split for brevity |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2015 19:52:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2015 : 19:51:18
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Conjecture Continued...
I have lots and LOTS of little tweaks in my (homebrew D&D) cosmology, which includes that Corellon (Cor'Elion) and Gruumsh (Gru-Maas) were not only brothers, but TWINS. Fraternal twins by Titania, with two different fathers. Cor ('something worthy of worship'/devine) Elion was the son of Frey Elion - King of the light elves, and Gru-Maas ('wild spirit') the son of Malekith (stolen from Marvel Comics), lord of the DokAlfar ('Dark Elves'). Both were called upon to lead their respective tribes after their fathers became 'indisposed' (both were prisoners after some deific conflict - Frey went to Asgard and Malekith was locked-up in Hel).
So really, the whole 'pantheon' thing is a human (demihuman/humanoid) convention. The gods (and nearly all other outsiders) are really just part of one HUGE group, which has fragmented into hundreds and hundreds of smaller 'cliches', and some beings are even part of more then one (some make it their business to be in as many as they can - 'gods of mischief' are known for this).
So mortals are the ones drawing all these 'hard lines' between various planer beings, when in fact they are all related and inter-connected, even the (Planer) Giants. 'The Gods' (Assura, Deva, Kami, etc) don't go by names like we do - they judge the others by their power-level and political leanings. So you CAN have Fiend-lords and even 'giants' that have more power (and sway) then some 'gods', as it ought to be, because that fits with mythology. If anything, becoming a 'deity' (a being capable of receiving worship and delivering power back to its faithful) is more like a 'power hack', and may even be frowned upon by some (like the Primordials).
I often say that Outsiders are really just energy given form by their consciousness, and the group consciousness of the mortals that believe in them. It might be easier to think of them as a liquid, however, like water. Water doesn't have to be in one place - you can take it apart and split it as many times as you like... but it gets diluted. Suppose the vedic gods tasted like cherry, and the Norse gods tasted like grape, and the Pharonic gods tasted like orange, etc. You could 'pour' a little of the same god into each pantheon, and it would still be that god, but it would be 'flavored' by their environment. The more times a god splits-off this way (sends avatars off into other pantheons, in D&D jargon), the more 'diluted' they become, and could even risk 'losing themselves' (having that bit completely subsumed by the pantheon, or even absorbed by some other being who "takes their stuff").
So yeah... now I am sort of back to my 'lava lamp' analogy. Thats how I see the gods, and thats how I see the universe - always changing and mixing and re-mixing together. Mortals are special because they are 'born of the prime', which means that each of them has a wee-bit of the divine spark within them (a leftover from when the First world - Ymir - was shattered). With that first death mortality was born, and the fragmented spirit of the 'great old One' Ymir resides in us all. It is THAT power which Outsiders covet - that is the one true commodity of the multiverse - God-power. Its is in limited supply,and only by starting a cult (religion) can a god access more then their normal share.
After the death of their brother Ymir, the other High Ordials (super-Overgods) withdrew from the workings of the Celestial Bureaucracy. This is how it is in the Mystara (OD&D) setting - their is another 'plane' beyond the one the gods reside in - a place for the 'gods of gods', so far removed from the normal universe its little more then speculation. They leave their children - all those being they helped create (the Outsiders, including Primordials) - to fight over the physical multiverse, whilst they reside each in their own respective dimensions (of which there are 11, total... I even try to give a nod to science/physics). Two overlap much more closely then the others and are actually now just two parts of one whole now - the 'Gaea' (lifeforce/'sentience') and the 'Ymir' (spirit/Old magic), which is reflected by the Astral and Ethereal Planes which straddle the Prime. This is because Gaea wrapped herself around the dying form of Ymir and mixed her energy with his, causing the material world to coalesce into new worlds (crystal spheres).
"Let there be Light!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2015 19:57:50 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 11:29:43
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Very interesting stuff Markustay, and I was allways curious if you took Malekith from Marvel Comics, or Warhammer Fantasy.
The Rigveda, could overtime, become confused with their servants(called deva), and started to use the names Deva themselves.
Some of the Rigveda, could have become corrupted(by Asmodeus/Ahriman?), and become Daeva(Zoroastrian devils), who were some of the first Lord of the Nine.
The Rigveda would also have a semi-alliance with part of the Asura, but there would often be conflict between the groups.
It the "Hell" were Malekith is imprissoned, is Baator, or some other lower plane? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 16:36:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Very interesting stuff Markustay.
Although I think the Rakshasa could be originaly celestial servants, under the gods, or to be specific, the 4E Devas. There could be rebellion connected to Baast, and that's why when the Deva transformed into fiends, they became feline Rakshasa.
Especialy that it's notted allready in canon that Mulhorandi gods produced deva, and that fallen Deva, become Rakshasa...
Yeah, I read about the Asura and Aesir connetion, and probable that Aesir emerged from the Asura part of the proto-pantheons. Although in the D&D/Planescape multiverse, I think that Vanir are connected to Archfey, and Seldarine. Freyr, a Vanir god, inherted the rule of Alfheim, showing that Vanir are connected to Alfheim.
And as I wrote before, in the Planes of Chaos, it was theorized that Alfheim was once part of Arvandor.
Yeah, I really like the idea that the Vanir are basically a collection of Archfey / Seelie & Unseelie / Seldarine / Celtic deities. It should be remembered also that Njord, Freyr, and Freyja coming to the Aesir was a trade of hostages essentially to establish peace. So, there's some Aesir who were sent to the Vanir as well... but who we don't know. For instance, the Crow/Raven tri-partite Goddesses of War Morrigan, Badb and Macha in the Celtic pantheon who don't suffer fear on the battlefield, could easily be akin to Valkyrie sent as hostages to the Vanir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 17:09:29
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I think it's possible the Valkyrie's at least partialy originated among the Vanir/Fey/Celtic Deities, as their leader was often Freyja, a Vanir deity. And Valkyries, were sometimes members of the Wild Hunt.
Freyja's cloak of feather's, let her actualy tranform herself into a bird, which further connects her to the Crow/Raven tri-partite Goddesses of War.
Maybe there even is some connection of Freyja to Aerdrie Faenya(who by the way, part of the time spends in Alfheim...), and to Angharradh. Faenya even sounds a bit like Freyja. Maybe Freyja is the merged aspect of Hanali Celanil and Aerdrie Faenya, similary to Angharradh, but created from only 2 goddesses.
Angharradh herself resembles the various triple goddesses of Celts too. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2015 : 20:13:07
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The concept of 'winged women' who bring 'the fallen' to the afterlife is a very common theme amongst religions/mythology. I suppose, like Succubus, they can actually appear as either sex (maybe there is some comforting factor in the opposite sex coming for you to 'take you home'). In fact, Succubi/Erynies could very well be the fallen/evil version of the Valkyrie/angels.
I have two conditions that affect 'fall' - there is 'taint' and there is corruption. 'Taint' pulls you down the evil axis, and 'Corruption' pulls you down the Chaotic axis. Evil is natural to the universe - i go with the (now) canon background that Asmodeus and the other devils 'fell' when they decided 'law' was much more important then 'good'. I also like the 4e spin (Gasp!) of the demons - that they are corrupted Elementals. Part of my Cosmology is that there is a force of pure corruption (Cthulhu/Dark God/Entropy/whatever) that is locked outside the normal multiverse (in The Far Realms) and works to corrupt beings within the universe to its own ends, with the ultimate agenda being the complete destruction of the universe. It makes some sense that it would have started with the elementals, who are responsible for the basic building blocks of the physical world.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Very interesting stuff Markustay, and I was allways curious if you took Malekith from Marvel Comics, or Warhammer Fantasy.
The Rigveda, could overtime, become confused with their servants(called deva), and started to use the names Deva themselves.
Some of the Rigveda, could have become corrupted(by Asmodeus/Ahriman?), and become Daeva(Zoroastrian devils), who were some of the first Lord of the Nine.
The Rigveda would also have a semi-alliance with part of the Asura, but there would often be conflict between the groups.
It the "Hell" were Malekith is imprisoned, is Baator, or some other lower plane?
My Malekith is an amalgam of both, really. I guess WH's take is closer (how could I have forgotten about that? I was building a second WH army of Dark Elves!)
Malekith was imprisoned in Hel. Not sure where that falls-out in my cosmology (my Great ring only has 8 'slices' around it, corresponding to the 8 alignments). My 'Hells are Baator, The Grey Waste, and The Abyss, each with three layers (so, NINE hells), and they are ruled by Asmodeus, Lucifer (Hades), and Satan, respectively. Satan (Shaitan) is the son of Lucifer (nod to Little Nicky - fun film), but he is the crazy one in the family (hence leaning toward chaos). The Norse Hel probably should fall out somewhere in those three, but I am not sure whats the best fit. Hela seems very 'lawful', but the people who go to her realm aren't necessarily so. Niflheim makes the most sense (second layer of The Grey Waste). The Hells - like in 3e/4e canon - were originally prisons for powerful beings after the first Godwar.
Yeah Hela's realm and Malekith's prison in Niflheim, I guess. Asmodeus*, BTW, is also sometimes called Mephisto (Marvel comics version), even though there already is a separate entity known as Mephisto. Fiends like to confuse people like that. 
*I only thought of this last bit because I borrow a lot from Marvel, and I like some of the interaction between Loki, Hela, and Mephisto. I use all their other 'cosmic entities' as well (I love me some Living Tribunal!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Apr 2015 20:15:59 |
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Chondathan and Talfir
