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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  04:09:51  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay let's add some of those little wrinkles I talked about:

- We know Talona defeated the deity known as Kiputytto, who is clearly Kipu-tyttö from Finnish Mythology. I just want to throw another Finnish Mythology connection out there. Loviatar is also a deity from Finnish Mythology. (It seems like the Finnish deities mostly all came over? This means that there was a major human migration from Earth at some point -- perhaps on par with what took place with the Mulan?)

Okay, let's look at some other cultures.

The Chultan and Tashalan People: There have always been native humans on this peninsula. It is hinted that the humans native to Toril might have evolved in this region from "primitive and apelike" bipeds that used "simple tools and [lived] in caves." (Grand History of the Realms, pg. 5) They have been slaves and servants from one Serpentfolk Empire to another, starting with the sarrukh empire of Mhairshaulk, which originally controlled the region.

The Chultan people were influenced by numerous deities and waves of immigration from various races. To give one example, Ubtao was brought to the native humans in the region by the winged serpents known as the couatls. They arrived from an unknown continent to the west.

The Tashalan people may have given rise to Talona, who is highly venerated in this region. She may have hopped the Shinning Sea at some point, and joined the Coramshite pantheon.

The Durpari People: These are the folks that live in the Var the Golden region as well as Durpar, Estagund, and Veldorn. They worship the Adama, and have a unique cultural history. They were around before the rise of Imaskar, they have been around a long time. It is possible that they could have had some indirect connections. For example, the Curna Mountains are located here. We know Curna is an alias for Oghma. Is it possible that Curna appeared in the Realms first, and actually absorbed Ogma to become Oghma? It is possible that the Jhaamdathian Empire had contact with the Durpari. They are also a massive trade culture... could Waukeen have originated from here as well? The Adama belief system did not appear until -256 DR. This means that the Durpari likely had deities prior to this, and Curna was likely one of them.

The Ffolk: These humans are not the original native inhabitants of the Moonshae Isles. There was a native tribe of humans there by this name, but they were displaced by humans immigrating from the Western Heartlands in 467 DR (primarily of Tethyrian racial stock). They seem to have merged themselves into the native Ffolk's culture. (The natives had been at war with the Illuskans, and seem to have been losing.) It is likely the Earthmother and other such concepts are native to the original Ffolk of the Moonshae Islands.

The Gur People: It is unclear when these people first appeared. They are a wandering gypsy like group of humans that inhabit the Western Heartlands. They primarily worship Selune and Savras. It looks as though they might be of Rashemi or Raumviran racial origin, and thus if they had to be dated they likely arrived in this region sometime after the fall of Narfell and Raumathar in -160 DR. It is therefore possible that they brought some of their deities with them.

The Lantanna People: The people of isles of Lantan, Suj, and Orlil. It is likely that Gond was introduced to the Faerunian Pantheon from here, and Races of Faerun (pg. 107) states as much. It is unknown what other deities they might have introduced, if any at all. Not much is known about Lantan or the other isles.

The Shaaran People: Little is known of human tribes of the Shaar. Races of Faerun (pg. 108) states that their deities were likely absorbed into the Jhamdaathan and Coramshite pantheons. Pretty much nothing exists of the native cultures after they were enslaved, conquered, or subsumed by their more powerful neighbors.

The Sossrim & Ulutiun People: The native humans of the Great Glacier Region are likely responsible for the faith of Ulutiu, or adopted it from the giants. His faith, however, is active in this region. There is also a possibility that Auril could have been introduced by them to the Faerunian Pantheon. This is obviously heavy speculation on my part. However, I believe her High Priestess (Chosen?) was located on the Great Glacier for some time.

The Ulutiun people who live on Great Glacier, are natives to Kara-Tur. However, they arrived and settled with the Sossrim for a time in -1648 DR. They moved on, became lost, and ended up becoming the inhabitants of the Great Glacier.

The Turami People: These were the original inhabitants around the Alamber Sea region. After the fall of Imaskar, the Mulan people viewed them largely as "barbarians" and displaced them. Refugees fled westward, all the way to Turmish. It may be possible that they were the ones who worshiped the beast cults of Malar and Nobanion, and brought them with them. It is unclear what deities they worshiped, however, but their deities were no doubt absorbed by the Jhamdaathan pantheon.

I have speculated that Lathander is a native deity of either the Turami People or the Talfiric People. Although it makes a great deal of sense for him to be a Talfiric deity, it becomes difficult to describe how he has become so popular in Chessenta. Chessenta has a sizable Turami population, and Lathander there is worshiped differently than he is in other parts of the Realms. It is possible that he originated among the Turami, and then became popular among the Talfiric people--likely absorbing one of their local deities. Lathander's faith could have declined greatly after the fall of Jhamdaath, likely being centered in the Twelve Cities of the Sword that were mostly wiped out.

The Zakharan People: The Natives of the land of Zakhara. Some of the Zakharan people immigrated to the lands of modern day Calimshan through portals, but it is unclear whether or not they brought their deities with them. If so, they were absorbed into the Coramshite Pantheon. It may be possible that Bhaelros is a deity native to the Zakharan people.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
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USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  05:34:00  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye.

Great catch! Thanks for posting this, as I love beholder lore and stuff on the odd things Cormyrean nobles do.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Baltas
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Poland
707 Posts

Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  14:05:17  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm allways hapy to share lore

Also, the people of Lantan, speak a dialect of Imaskari origin, so they may be connected.

Raurin/Durpari(including Imaskari) peoples, seem to be a mix of Muhjuri, and Devic peoples. Muhjuri, may be Zakharan in origin, and devic are probably related to the peoples of Utter East, and Malatra.

I think the Finnish Deities, might have been worshipped by the Ulou peoples(Rengarth, Ice Hunters, and to lesser degree some Netherese).

Mielikki's faith seems to be concentrated around the Ice Hunter's original dwellings, and after all, Talona fought, and absorbed Kiputytto within the terirories of Asram.

[Edit]

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

The Sossrim & Ulutiun People: The native humans of the Great Glacier Region are likely responsible for the faith of Ulutiu, or adopted it from the giants. His faith, however, is active in this region. There is also a possibility that Auril could have been introduced by them to the Faerunian Pantheon. This is obviously heavy speculation on my part. However, I believe her High Priestess (Chosen?) was located on the Great Glacier for some time.

The Ulutiun people who live on Great Glacier, are natives to Kara-Tur. However, they arrived and settled with the Sossrim for a time in -1648 DR. They moved on, became lost, and ended up becoming the inhabitants of the Great Glacier.




About this. Ulutiun are related to the Ice Hunters, and other Ulou folk(this includes Netherese). I think they mixed with a group native from Kara-Tur, that arrived in -1648 DR. The Ice-Hunter's/Rengarth/Ulutiun, are said to be the original, aborigal human inhabitants of North Faerun.
Sossrim were originaly a Rashemi tribe, lead by the warrior Soss, that gone far north in -2320 DR.


Edited by - Baltas on 22 Feb 2015 22:00:47
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sleyvas
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USA
8994 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2015 :  02:39:51  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

Okay, with migration patterns down, let's see what I can do regarding to the rise and fall of the various deities.

We know the complete list of the Netherese Pantheon:
Amaunator (dies)
Jannath (becomes known as Chauntea)
Jergal
Kozah (becomes known as Talos)
Moander
Mystryl (becomes known as Mystra)
Selune
Shar
Targus (becomes known as Garagos)
Tyche (splits into Tymora and Beshaba)

We also know some of the Jhaamdathan Pantheon:
Auppenser (dead? Sleeping?)
Valigan Thirdborn (Slain by Tyr)

Current Active Deities in the Vilhon Reach:
Eldath
Helm
Lliira / Waukeen
Malar
Nobanion
Silvanus
Talos
Tempus
Tyr

Okay, so here are my theories.

This region is the point of entry for the Finnish, Norse, and Celtic deities in the Realms. It has seen a number of different interloper deities. Deities who came over at various points:
Silvanus
Tyr
Loviatar
Oghma
Ilmater

There were also likely native beast cults that almost certainly originated in the region (particularly the Gulthmere Forest area):
Malar
Nobanion

Then there was likely a migration of some archfey who likely became deities as well. This is how Eldath gets involved, but more on that later.

Okay, so basically, we have these deities showing up as interlopers in this area. Ilmater likely originated as the Finnish deity known as Ilmatar. Ilmatar, however, was female. I suspect that there was a merger between Ilmatar and another deity, likely one that was brought over by the slaves of Calim. This is some type of deity of oppressed people, slaves, that teaches about enduring hardship, etc. He ultimately merges with the Finnish deity known as Ilmatar to become the being we know today as Ilmater.

Ogma, Dagda, Brigid, and likely others from Irish Mythology came over as interlopers.

Ogma became known as Oghma after merging with one or more deities, and likely was the Jhaamdathian deity of knowledge. His core center of worshiper was likely wiped out in the events that caused the fall of Jhaamdath. He was either originally known as Curna, and Oghma was the alias taken or he absorbed Curna later. The modern seat of his orthodox faith is in Procampur, located in the Vast. We know this is the region that many individuals from this region immigrated to after the fall of Jhaamdath. So there are strong signs that Oghma's faith originated here in the Vilhon Reach.

The interloper Silvanus was likely active in this region of the Realms as well, and he likely merged with Dagda. This is echoing back to the theories Baltas brought up.

Dagda was the father of Brigid, as he pointed out. Echoing back to his thoughts of Eldath and the Elven/Fey power Sarula Iliene, this may have been her original incarnation. Sarula Iliene could have originally appeared in the Gulthmere Forest area. She then merged with Brigit. This is how Eldath's story and Silvanus story get entangled.

Also, going with Baltas' mention that Eldath may actually mean something like "Peace (among) the People."

The deity Talos (pre-Kozah) likely originates either here or among the Talfir people.

The faith of Garagos likely originated in this region, or close to it. As the faithful of Targus came southward after the fall of Netheril, he claimed the name Garagos, prior to being defeated by Tempus.

It is undeniable that Tempus is a Talfir deity.

Waukeen likely originates from here, as the Chondathans are known for being merchants.

Chauntea (pre-Jannath) like Talos (pre-Kozah) likely originates either here or among the Talfir people.

Tyr certainly came over through here, as he is said to have slain Valigan Thirdborn.

This also likely puts Torm's ascension around this time frame as well, and the legendary realm of Chalsembyr or the High Seat. Perhaps it was destroyed as a result of what the Elves did to cause the fall of Jhaamdath? This would explain why no one can find it, since it was washed away by a magical tsunami. ...wow. That would really peeve off the Tormites.

There is some more fuel to add to the debate.





On the Ilmater piece, Ilmatar is nothing like Ilmater. In fact, Ilmater is more like Issek of the Jug of the Newhon mythology. I stated this in the past, but it literally wasn't until now that I realized that Ed himself wanted us to see that linkage. I submit that Ilmater is just a renamed Issek of the Jug which has interloped to Faerun.


Ed Greenwood, Dragon magazine #54 - "Down-to-earth divinity" (October 1981), p. 52: "[Ilmater] is the willing sufferer, similar to Issek of the Jug".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
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Poland
707 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  01:38:42  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

The interloper Silvanus was likely active in this region of the Realms as well, and he likely merged with Dagda. This is echoing back to the theories Baltas brought up.

Dagda was the father of Brigid, as he pointed out. Echoing back to his thoughts of Eldath and the Elven/Fey power Sarula Iliene, this may have been her original incarnation. Sarula Iliene could have originally appeared in the Gulthmere Forest area. She then merged with Brigit. This is how Eldath's story and Silvanus story get entangled.

Also, going with Baltas' mention that Eldath may actually mean something like "Peace (among) the People."





Another interesting fact I remembered while posting on the Monster Mythology Update Project, is that the Celtic goddess Cailleach is thought as the source, and original "Queen of Air and Darkness".
Cailleach is presented as Brigid's enemy, and sometimes dark reflection, and she imprisons Brigid during winter. Silvanus purified Auril(who was revealed as the same as Queen of Air and Darkness) from Tharizdun's gem, and welcomed her in his realm. Maybe Auril is Cailleach, who is another of Daghda's daughters, along Brigit. This could possibly make Auril another member of the Talfiran pantheon. Not to mention, Northmen seem to like to worship the old Talfiri gods, like they do with Tempus, so it may be also the case with Auril.

[EDIT]

Also, when writting about ancient human groups and proto groups, there are the Arthraen, the direct precursors of the Nar, and cultural precursors of Aglarond, Thesk, Ashanath, the Great Dale, and Impiltur. One of the Arthraen tribes, Yuir, is much better known.
The post about it, by George Krashos:

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos


In the Dawn Ages, called by by some sages the Time of Dragons, the lands of modern-day Aglarond, Thesk, Ashanath, the Great Dale, Narfell and Impiltur were covered by a huge, nameless forest, of which the Yuirwood, the Forest of Lethyr and the Rawlinswood are the only surviving remnants. Primitive human tribes roamed this great forest, safe on the whole from the attention of the great dragons and later the giants who ruled.

Of these tribes, history has provided us with only a single name - the Yuir - and much of what we know about them comes from the unique means by which the Yuir, their history and some of their gods were subsumed into the historical record of the elves.

This grouping of human tribes, whom sages refer to as the Arthraen (from a bastardization of an elvish term for "forest hunters") had lived in the forests for millennia, eking out an existence whilst striving to avoid the predations of first the sarrukh of Okoth - who had a presence on what is now known as the Thaymount, which may have been a stronghold of the Ba'etith - and then the dragons and the giants who would raid the forests for food and slaves.

Elven history and the unique interactions between the elves who first came to the modern-day Yuirwood and the indigenous human population there, preserved some of the gods of the Arthraen. Those gods were Magnar, Relkath, Zandilar, Elikarashae and the Simbul. There were at least five others worshipped by the Yuir and assumedly by the the other humans of the forest lands. Their names and their areas of deific influence are lost to history. Sages and loremasters postulate that the known gods of the Arthraen had the following rough 'portfolios':

Relkath - nature
Magnar - war and strength
Zandilar - love and passion
Elikarashae - hunting and survival
Simbul - fate

It is thought that the Arthraen had gods for the sky/weather, hearth/home and tribal/familial life, and evil/darkness, but this is just postulation on the part of sages.

The last cohesive remnant of the humans known as the Arthraen were the ancient Nar. They turned away from the worship of their ancient gods and fell to venerating the dark powers of the Abyss. This occurred following their exposure to the horrors of Narathmault, the Dark Pit, known to modern historians as Dun Tharos. With the advent of their demon worship, all record of the ancient gods of the Arthraen was erased, save for what had been preserved in the Yuirwood.

-- George Krashos



Edited by - Baltas on 26 Feb 2015 15:43:13
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  19:39:21  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

There were at least five others worshipped by the Yuir and assumedly by the the other humans of the forest lands. Their names and their areas of deific influence are lost to history. Sages and loremasters postulate that the known gods of the Arthraen had the following rough 'portfolios':

Relkath - nature
Magnar - war and strength
Zandilar - love and passion
Elikarashae - hunting and survival
Simbul - fate

It is thought that the Arthraen had gods for the sky/weather, hearth/home and tribal/familial life, and evil/darkness, but this is just postulation on the part of sages.


I am going just off my head at the moment, so I don't have any page numbers that I can source.

However, if I am not mistaken we know that Bhast (Mulhorandi Deity) absorbed Zandilar the Dancer, and then sometime after this eventually became the deity we know as Sharess.

Elikarashae sounds a lot like Eilistraee. I suspect, and this is just a guess on my part, that the first human worshipers of Eilistraee were here in the Yuirwood. Alternatively, she may have absorbed the deity, which is how she became a goddess of hunting.

Regarding the unknown sky/weather deity... we know that the elemental lords are worshiped more widely in this region of Faerun than anywhere else. I believe Akadi is worshiped in some areas of this region of Faerun as a sky/weather deity.
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Baltas
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Poland
707 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2015 :  20:08:10  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting idea with Elikarashae and Eilistraee, Elikarashae was fused with Shevarash, in order to make him a god. Although it's possible that aspects of Elikarashae were split among Eilistraee and Shevarash. Or Elikarashae started out originaly an aspect of Eilistraee, that got fully indepandant, and later fused wih Shevarash.
If this is the case, this is a strange situation, considering Shevarash predistposition towards Drow.

Also, on the Known Yuir Gods
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17210&whichpage=2

I and sleyvas discussed the possibility of Zandilar being the child of Auril, so maybe the weather deity might have been Auril herself.

I also wonder if the uncorrupted Arthraen, had interractions with Jhaamdath. Jhaamdath settled Impiltur, Thesk, so there might have been some interractions.

[EDIT]

And maybe Auril, a Talfiric deity, killed and absorbed the more benevolent Ice Hunter/Ulou goddess Saukuruk. That why in Sossal, deep north she's seen as more benevolent, as it's the memory of Saukuruk.

Ulou peoples, seem to have worshipped many pantheons.
Ice Hunter and Ulutiun, worshiped Ulutiu, the Spirits, and possibly Saukuruk[(now?) Auril].
Netherese worshipped their well known pantheon.
The ancient peoples of the Moonsea, who also seem to be of this group, or at least related, worshipped Irmider, Enthandas, and Arnaglaerus. Those three ere aspects, or were absorbed by respetfully Silvanus, Selune, and Gond.

Edited by - Baltas on 04 Mar 2015 16:06:32
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Baltas
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Poland
707 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2015 :  15:50:16  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, returning to the topic, the Talfiri were first recorded in the surroundings of Keltomir, including forest of Tethir, later known as Wealdath. Someone remembers the origins of the name Wealdath? I think it may elven or druidic, but I'm still curious.

[EDIT]

So, are there any clues who might've renamed Tethir, into Wealdath? It would seem that not the elves, after all Tethir was an elven hero, and the first dragon slayer among them. So maybe it's the Tethen/Talfiric name for the forrest? Or maybe it's druidic name for it? Then again, it seems that druidic, is related to the Talfiric language. This could mean that "dath", was originaly a Talfiric word. Maybe Jhaamdathan language evolved from Talfiric, because of many other influences, like Jotun(said to have an influence on Thorass), old Alzhedo(also said to have influenced Thorass), Raurin(Imaskari), Rauric, Ilythiiri and later, Turami and Untheri languages? Although languages that influenced Thorass, may have not influenced Jhaamdathan, and Chondathan languages, only the "pidgin variant of Chondathan", that is Thorass.

It appears that Talfir may have had up to a level, a druidic culture, if we observe Ffolk culture, and the fact druidic is most probably related to Talfiric. It's seems that if Jhaamdathans indeed are related to Talfiri, this culture partly survived during the psionic dominant culture of Jhaamdath, at least on the Eyes of Silvanus.


Edited by - Baltas on 04 Mar 2015 16:09:03
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2015 :  20:42:38  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It does not appear to me, based on human migration patterns, that the Talfiric people had any large migrations to the Vilhon Reach / Jhaamdathan / Chondathan region of Faerun. In fact, it appears that the opposite is the case--people from the Vilhon Reach region migrated through the lands of modern day Amn, and into the region that held the Talfiric people.

The first of these migration patterns likely took place sometime around -11700 DR, where they started to enter into the lands of modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan. As the Elves gradually retreated, the humans of these lands moved further north, and encountered the human tribes already living in the region. This group likely became what is now known as the Talfiric people. The cultural identity likely began to develop between -7800 DR and -2758 DR.
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Baltas
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Poland
707 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2015 :  23:04:32  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

It does not appear to me, based on human migration patterns, that the Talfiric people had any large migrations to the Vilhon Reach / Jhaamdathan / Chondathan region of Faerun. In fact, it appears that the opposite is the case--people from the Vilhon Reach region migrated through the lands of modern day Amn, and into the region that held the Talfiric people.

The first of these migration patterns likely took place sometime around -11700 DR, where they started to enter into the lands of modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan. As the Elves gradually retreated, the humans of these lands moved further north, and encountered the human tribes already living in the region. This group likely became what is now known as the Talfiric people. The cultural identity likely began to develop between -7800 DR and -2758 DR.



Brlliant find! Although George Krashos suggest the Talfiri, were in the area since the very begining, this date may be the "very begining" for them. The Talfiri must have arrived in some way. Although they might have been created just in that area, but still I wouldn't like if that was the way they appeared in the Realms.

There are two things against it though thing against it, would b. George's opinion that the Talfiri were present in Western Heartlands region, and around woods of Keltomir since time immemorial, and that it was from Talfiri other cultures and ethnicities developed, rather than Talfiri developing from some other ethnicity/culture. The second are fan work(including the original Grand History of the Realms), and oppinions of Brian R. James, that has the Talfiri present in Western Heartlands as early, as -23,000 DR, although that's not exacly 100% cannon.

Still, I like your idea quite well, I said it before, but great find Aldrick! I think I'll use it in my Realms.

What is interesting, the Old Empires sourcebook, describes three racial types: Mulani, Turami, and Tethen. Mulani, as described in this book, did not only include Mulan folk, but also Raurini(So Durpari and Imaskari included), as Mulan were originaly described as decesdants of the Raurin Empire(named by later sources as Imaskar), not their slaves. Turami, were the were the Turmish, their ancestors, and the Turami decendants among Mulan. The Tethen, described peoople of Tethyr, Amn, and the western nations of the Inner Sea, Which would include Chondath, The Dragon Coast, Sembia, Dalelands and Cormyr. So this describes the Tethyrians(watered down decesdants of Talfiri), and Chondathans as basicaly one group. Although one can just say it's the Mulan perceptions of things, or that this obviously was overwritten by newer canon. But this also may be seen as remains of an ancient(Imaskari?) knowlege that the Talfiri and Jhaamdathans were related.

Edited by - Baltas on 04 Mar 2015 23:09:12
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2015 :  23:42:56  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Brlliant find! Although George Krashos suggest the Talfiri, were in the area since the very begining, this date may be the "very begining" for them. The Talfiri must have arrived in some way. Although they might have been created just in that area, but still I wouldn't like if that was the way they appeared in the Realms.

There are two things against it though thing against it, would b. George's opinion that the Talfiri were present in Western Heartlands region, and around woods of Keltomir since time immemorial, and that it was from Talfiri other cultures and ethnicities developed, rather than Talfiri developing from some other ethnicity/culture. The second are fan work(including the original Grand History of the Realms), and oppinions of Brian R. James, that has the Talfiri present in Western Heartlands as early, as -23,000 DR, although that's not exacly 100% cannon.


It is possible that humans have been there since practically the beginning. However, there is no way they could have inhabited the region in any real significant numbers prior to the migrations.

The region was once controlled by a batrachi empire known as the Zhoukoudien. However, after the Tearfall (which led to the creation of the Sea of Fallen Stars) in -31000 DR the empire was completely destroyed. Humans would have been slaves to said empire, and thus may have been brought from other regions. However, after the Tearfall, most of the humans in the region likely died. Those who survived were pretty much literally knocked back into the stone age, reduced to very primitive hunter gatherers.

They could not have been overly numerous because the area fell under the control of the Elven Empire of Shantel Othreier. The Elves would not have tolerated a strong human culture in their midst, and thus the humans living there had to be pretty much hunter gatherers living on the outskirts of their empire. This means any real noticeable advanced culture did not take place until after the decline of Shantel Othreier.

As the Elven Empire declined, humans (who began migrating to the south in modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan after -11700 DR) would have started to move northward. It is only in the absence of the Elves could the humans develop an agrarian society and leave behind hunting and gathering.

This would have left them sandwiched between two powerful empires: The Calim Empire to the South and Netheril to the North. The Calim Empire relied heavily upon slaves, and it is almost certainly that they started slave raids into the lands to their north. This would have caused refugees to flee further north to escape the slavers, but they would have been prevented going any further than Talfiric lands due to Netheril.

This is why I believe Talfiric culture starts to take root between -7800 DR and -2758 DR. By the later date they would have been, at best, barbarian kingdoms. They would have been viewed as insignificant savages by the Netherese. They do not seem to have achieved anything of importance.

There is not a formal empire in these lands until 34 DR, with the rise of the Empire of Ebenfar and the Shadowking. And it should be noted that by this point these 'barbarian kingdoms' were already being overrun by Netherese refugees. It was also around the time that the proto-human pantheons started to merge together to form the Faerunian Pantheon.
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  08:01:16  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very good observations, although some, most notably Markustay, think that maybe Thaeravel might have been an early Tallfiric kingdom. It seems to have been a human kingdom, and non-Netherese, located south of Netheril. Although it being Talfiric, is pure speculation, aside from it's location fitting.

Edited by - Baltas on 05 Mar 2015 08:11:53
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Aldrick
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Posted - 05 Mar 2015 :  16:00:05  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Very good observations, although some, most notably Markustay, think that maybe Thaeravel might have been an early Tallfiric kingdom. It seems to have been a human kingdom, and non-Netherese, located south of Netheril. Although it being Talfiric, is pure speculation, aside from it's location fitting.


I cannot say with complete and utter certainty that Thaeravel was not Talfiric. However, I think there is good evidence against it.

First, we have to keep in mind where we know the Talfiric people were located: along the River Chionthar basin -- which places them between Baldur's Gate and Scornubel. Basically, broadly speaking, they would have occupied the region we would have known as the Western Heartlands, and likely along the Sword Coast near the Baldur's Gate region.

Second, Thaeravel was located in the modern day Anauroch. Specifically, the region known as the Sword, and more precisely the region of the Sword known as the Quarter of Emptiness. This is north of the Farsea Marches. We know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, because Lost Empires of Faerun (pg. 106) states that Rasilith was the capital city of Thaeravel, and that the city still exists "buried in the depths of the Quarter of Emptiness." If you have a copy of the Anauroch Map (and if you don't an online copy can be found here), then you will see that the ruins of Rasilith is marked on the map in the Quarter of Emptiness dating back to 2E.

In short, I think Thaeravel was just located too far north and east to be Talfiric. It did, however, exist on their peripheral. It is likely that when the Netherese conquered Thaeravel that some of the refugees ended up mixing with the Talfiric people, at least those who were not absorbed into the Low Netherese. It is also possible that they were an ethnic off-shoot of the original Talfiric people who traveled further north to establish their kingdom. Regardless, Netheril conquered them completely.

One interesting note, though, is that Moander may have been one of their deities. His worship during the time of Netheril was most frequent in this southern region of Netheril... though it was more oriented just north of the modern day Stonelands region. This region was once known as Moander's Footstep. Check the following sources: Netheril: Empire of Magic (pg. 48 & 80) and Grand History of the Realms (pg. 32).

I think we should be careful when ascribing kingdoms and the like to the Talfiric people. All indications point to the fact that they were largely unremarkable, and their only real significance in history was the fact that they existed as a common intersection for refugees fleeing the disasters and fallout's of larger, more significant peoples and nations. Races of Faerun (pg. 109) clearly states that "the Talfir left little in the way of ruins or artifacts" which would imply that they were not overly advanced. The only significant remnant they leave behind was the Crypt of the Shadowking, buried beneath Irieabor. That was built after 34 DR, and is a remnant of the Empire of Ebenfar.
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 06 Mar 2015 :  15:25:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, yeah it seems that Thaeravel, rather wasn't that tied to the core Talfiric "civilisation" to say. And from what George Kashos wrote, they may be another Ulou(Rangarth, Ulutiun, Netheril etc) civilisation.

Indeed, Moander starting out as a Thaeravel deity, is quite probable. What is interesting about Netheril, is that there probably were gods, outside the main Netherese pantheon. Bright Nydra, and by extension, Shaundakul might been also perpipal members of the Netherese pantheon.
Shaundakul is remembered worshipped in ares that were close to Netheril, or rembered among groups connected to them, like Bedine(although in a very distorted form, thanks to Beshaba), and appears that Shaundakul has some cult, or place in mythology, among the Farsea Marshe dwellers(Netheril Survivors). Kiputytto may have also had some cult among Netherese.

Returning to Jhaamdathans and Talfiri, if we go with the theory that Talfiri started out in the Western Heartlands region, maybe when Talfiri settled in the forest of Tethir, they either moved southeastward, or were abducted by Ilythiiri. Ultimately, in both scenario's they would end up under the Ilythiiri's rule, which may have infuenced the fact many Jhaamdathans and Chondathans, dislike elves. The Ilythiiri may have also created/awakened the psionic pontential in the future Jhaamdathans.
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 06 Mar 2015 :  20:52:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have no problem with Thaeravel being Talfiric, they need only be distantly related.

The location of the capital means they have an empire extending around it to varying degrees. The fact that no mention is made of any other cities in the Netheril area means that the rest of the civilisation was likely spread out to the south and west outside the basin and reach of Netheril (at that time).

Either the Farsea Marshes or the Marsh of Tun is supposed to have a ruined city in it that may well be a remnant of this nation. The Netheril boxed set makes mention of archaeological sites that point to primitive human tribes in the south of the Netheril Basin that could have been a precursor to Thaeravel (or Netheril if you think those people originated in that basin).

I personally made the link between Thaeravel and the Talfir through Ebenfar by making shadow magic prevalent in both. I then linked Thultanthar's and Lord Shadow's preoccupation with Shadow Magic and the Plane of Shadow through the archaeological digs in the south west of the Basin (I think called The Hollow).

All homebrew of course but the lore from the Netheril boxed set is so inconsistent and contradictory in places that I figure a decent reinvention is long overdue.

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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 07 Mar 2015 :  01:03:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The way I see it, 'Talfir' were a people (ethnic group), and 'Thaeravel' was a country made-up mostly of folk of Talfiric descent.

So calling 'Talfir' a country/region would be like calling Native Americans 'a country', when in reality it was made-up of hundreds of smaller organized groups (and because roughly half were migratory, you can't even slap a regional descriptor on a lot of them that would be accurate).

So, in essence, Thaeravel was Talfiric, but being Talfir doesn't mean you were Thaeraveli, or even from Ebenfar. In fact, it might even be useful for us to picture something akin to Hellenistic (Greek citystates) for their culture - independent but with various levels of relations (not dissimilar, BTW, to how Netheril itself was setup).

I used to imagine the Talfir were the western branch of the Cortae people (something akin to Celts, but FR), but now I think they might be a better contender for the dragon-Kingdom survivors. After the fall of their masters, they would have sunk to a more primitive state for a time (to varying degrees with different 'tribes'), and then slowly rebuilt their human culture, but based on a lot of their old draconic beliefs (which may be where that bit of 'darkness' came from).*

The whole Reason why I went this route with my thinking is because Netheril is always made out to be the bad guy, when in fact we don't know what they were like in the beginning. Many civilizations start out quite noble, but then fall into decadence. So since we have some sort of 'shadowy' connection with the whole middle region of the western heartlands in the distant past, and we know Thaeravel existed before Netheril began to spread into an empire (because it was annexed into that empire), its a fairly easy leap to make that some of Netheril's own 'darkness' came from the knowledge they gleaned from the Thaeraveli (so their invasion and take-over was more of the 'monkey's paw' variety).

And for what it's worth, there is something very, VERY dark beneath the Tunlands...



*The Elves that survived the fall of the Draconic kingdoms would have withdrawn from the world (went into hiding), and although around at the time, would not have had much of a hand in shaping human culture after both were reeling from the fall of their civilizations (their draconic masters, really). This reclusive behavior on the Elves' part (hiding from the rampaging dragons) would have stayed with them and become part of their own culture over time (which explains a lot of why the elves behave the way they do).

Just my opinion is all - take for whatever it's worth.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Mar 2015 01:09:53
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Aldrick
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Posted - 07 Mar 2015 :  01:05:06  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I have no problem with Thaeravel being Talfiric, they need only be distantly related.


Yeah, like I said--I cannot discount it beyond a shadow of a doubt. We simply do not have any real information on the Talfiric. It is possible that they were an offshoot, but it is almost impossible for them to be a direct and major empire of this ethnic group. There are no canonical ruins of the Thaeravel south of the Sword.

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The Netheril boxed set makes mention of archaeological sites that point to primitive human tribes in the south of the Netheril Basin that could have been a precursor to Thaeravel (or Netheril if you think those people originated in that basin).


I would argue that the primitive human tribes to the south of the Netheril Basin are actually the Talfiric people.

It is important to remember that there was a number of different human ethnic groups in the region of the Netheril basin region. It is more than possible that the Thaeravel were one of them.

quote:
I personally made the link between Thaeravel and the Talfir through Ebenfar by making shadow magic prevalent in both.


I am not sure how you draw the Thaeravel and Ebenfar connection. Primarily, because I was unaware that Thaeravel had any connection to shadow magic at all. Ebenfar's shadow magic seems to be based on a discovery made by Verraketh Talember the Shadowking.

quote:
I then linked Thultanthar's and Lord Shadow's preoccupation with Shadow Magic and the Plane of Shadow through the archaeological digs in the south west of the Basin (I think called The Hollow).


I did something similar in my Realms.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Indeed, Moander starting out as a Thaeravel deity, is quite probable. What is interesting about Netheril, is that there probably were gods, outside the main Netherese pantheon. Bright Nydra, and by extension, Shaundakul might been also perpipal members of the Netherese pantheon.
Shaundakul is remembered worshipped in ares that were close to Netheril, or rembered among groups connected to them, like Bedine(although in a very distorted form, thanks to Beshaba), and appears that Shaundakul has some cult, or place in mythology, among the Farsea Marshe dwellers(Netheril Survivors). Kiputytto may have also had some cult among Netherese.


I agree. There were likely various cults of various deities (some likely long forgotten) throughout the region. For example, we don't have any idea who the deities of the various human ethnic groups of the entire region. Shaundakul was probably one of theirs at one point, who managed to gain a foothold further east toward Myth Drannor.

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Returning to Jhaamdathans and Talfiri, if we go with the theory that Talfiri started out in the Western Heartlands region, maybe when Talfiri settled in the forest of Tethir, they either moved southeastward, or were abducted by Ilythiiri. Ultimately, in both scenario's they would end up under the Ilythiiri's rule, which may have infuenced the fact many Jhaamdathans and Chondathans, dislike elves. The Ilythiiri may have also created/awakened the psionic pontential in the future Jhaamdathans.


I don't necessarily think that the Talfiric people settled the Tethyr region. I think the humans migrating northward from this region merged with the already existing barbarian Talfiric tribes to the north in the Western Heartlands.

It may be confusing, but part of the difficulty in picturing things is the huge timescale we are dealing with, as well as the sudden appearance of certain groups of people.

Basically, if you are looking at the entire region: humans likely started out as unevolved ape-like beings in the Chultan peninsula region. Humans evolved into homosapien-like beings, and migrate throughout the Realms. Their migration is aided through enslavement by the various powerful empires at the time. They first spread into the Shaar region, then likely northward around the Lake of Steam region, and further north through the Western Heartlands and beyond.

All of these large migrations likely happen long before the arrival of the Elves in the First Flowering. By the time the first Elves arrive the humans have already largely fractured into various ethnic groups with distinctive regional features.

Human migration continues in small waves throughout history. However, humans on the whole, except where otherwise noted, are either entirely tribal hunter-gatherers, nomadic herders, or loosely ruled savage barbarian kingdoms.

In the region that we are talking about, there are no large human kingdoms of any significance outside of what would become Jhaamdath and Netheril. The Jhaamdathan occupy the modern day Vilhon Reach region, while the Netherese occupy the modern day Anauroch region.

After -11700 DR humans begin to move into and dominate in the region of modern day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan. This is due to dragon attacks in the Elven Kingdoms of Keltormir and Shantel Othreier. The dragons burned vast expanses of the forests, creating clearings and meadows which the humans moved into as the Elves began to retreat.

This Elven retreat continues over time, and as the Elves retreat the humans of the Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan region are going to move further north. This northward migration is going to be spurred on by the Great Arrival in -7800 DR--which is when Calim and his Djen arrive with thousands upon thousands of human and halfling slaves non-native to Toril. The northward migration happens as they seek out more slaves and land conquest. This northward migration pushes them right into the Western Heartlands and the region occupied by the Talfiric.

There were likely other, smaller, migrations taking place. For example, I am sure when Thaeravel fell, some of them likely ventured southward and found refuge with the Talfiric barbarians of the region.

It is unlikely that the Talfiric were any more advanced than most other human barbarian tribes. At best they had small petty kingdoms of little significance. Races of Faerun makes it clear that the Talfiric left behind very few artifacts of their civilization, which would imply that it was not overly advanced. They do not even get a mention in the Grand History of the Realms until the rise of Ebenfar, which takes place only after the Talfiric are basically being overrun by Netherese refugees. ..so it is easy to argue that Ebenfar is more of a Netherese creation than a purely Talfiric creation.

What makes the Talfiric important is their geographical location. They essentially absorbed wave after wave of human immigration century after century. They were a sort of barbarian melting pot of cultures intersecting with their own, and after the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath they served as the fertile ground from which the modern day Faerunian Pantheon arose--precisely because of their geographical location.

I don't think there was anything unique or special about the Talfiric people outside of their fortunate (or unfortunate depending on perspective) location. They simply absorbed culture after culture into their own until they were overrun, and lost their cultural identity entirely.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 07 Mar 2015 :  01:12:06  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So calling 'Talfir' a country/region would be like calling native Americnas 'a nation', when in reality it was made-up of hundreds of smaller organized groups (and because roughly half were migratory, you can't even slap a regional descriptor on a lot of them that would be accurate).


I agree with this entirely. This is part of the difficulty.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The way I see it, 'Talfir' were a people (ethnic group), and 'Thaeravel' was a country made-up mostly of folk of Talfiric descent.


We can't rule this out, and it is certainly possible. However, we also cannot overlook the fact that there were a number of different human ethnic groups living within the Netheril Basin (modern day Anauroch). It could have been one of them.


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I used to imagine the Talfir were the western branch of the Cortae people (something akin to Celts, but FR), but now I think they might be a better contender for the dragon-Kingdom survivors. After the fall of their masters, they would have sunk to a more primitive state for a time (to varying degrees with different 'tribes'), and then slowly rebuilt their human culture, but based on a lot of their old draconic beliefs (which may be where that bit of 'darkness' came from).


It is canon that they used the draconic alphabet.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5853 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2015 :  01:47:34  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
All homebrew of course but the lore from the Netheril boxed set is so inconsistent and contradictory in places that I figure a decent reinvention is long overdue.



Oh indeed. Netheril needs a serious revamp.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
5075 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2015 :  09:27:51  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
All homebrew of course but the lore from the Netheril boxed set is so inconsistent and contradictory in places that I figure a decent reinvention is long overdue.



Oh indeed. Netheril needs a serious revamp.

-- George Krashos



You tease George, at least give us an idea of when work will begin. I need to know when to release my version so they dont conflict (I know yours will be better though)

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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 07 Mar 2015 :  21:19:56  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
All homebrew of course but the lore from the Netheril boxed set is so inconsistent and contradictory in places that I figure a decent reinvention is long overdue.



Oh indeed. Netheril needs a serious revamp.

-- George Krashos



Out of curiocity George, would you do such a revamp, officialy, if WoTC gave you the oppurtunity? Or are you maybe working on an "unofficial"(but pretty official and canonical for us, Candlekeep scribes) version?

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I used to imagine the Talfir were the western branch of the Cortae people (something akin to Celts, but FR), but now I think they might be a better contender for the dragon-Kingdom survivors. After the fall of their masters, they would have sunk to a more primitive state for a time (to varying degrees with different 'tribes'), and then slowly rebuilt their human culture, but based on a lot of their old draconic beliefs (which may be where that bit of 'darkness' came from).*





Well, the Talfir can be technicaly both. And snakes and dragons, are very popular in Celtic ymbolism...The falling back to a primitive state, reminds me of the Atlanteans/Cimmerians in Robert Howard's fiction. Tempus is even kind-off similar to Crom. But yeah, it would be interesting if the Netherese got some of their more malovelent tendencies, from Thaeravel. (and the possibly the cult of Shar and Moander). It's semi-canonical that the cult of Jergal, was brough from an Netherese archmage, who studdied necromancy from Spellweavers, who worshipped Jergal.

quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick

I don't necessarily think that the Talfiric people settled the Tethyr region. I think the humans migrating northward from this region merged with the already existing barbarian Talfiric tribes to the north in the Western Heartlands.




Well, it pretty heavily implied in Races of Faerun, that Talfiric culture and language, were those of ancient Tethyr culture, that got overtime overriden by Chondathan, Illuskan, Calishyte and Netherese. George Krashos even commented in this thread, that he thinks(and has in his home campaign) that the (human)peoples who lived in areas of Keltomir, were in fact Talfiric.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 08 Mar 2015 :  01:13:37  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Well, it pretty heavily implied in Races of Faerun, that Talfiric culture and language, were those of ancient Tethyr culture, that got overtime overriden by Chondathan, Illuskan, Calishyte and Netherese. George Krashos even commented in this thread, that he thinks(and has in his home campaign) that the (human)peoples who lived in areas of Keltomir, were in fact Talfiric.


That's not actually what Races of Faerun says--it is reversed.

"...the Talfir gradually disappeared over a thousand years ago, their culture overwhelmed by refugees from Low Netheril, Calishite settlers from the south, and Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast." - Races of Faerun (pg. 109)

There is no evidence that the people who inhabited the Chionthar river valley went any further south than modern day Amn, and all of the evidence we have in canon points to northern migrations from the south into their lands.

It makes sense that the humans living in the areas of Keltormir after -11700 DR would be associated with the Talfiric people, because as the Elves retreated they would have moved further northward to connect with the people living in the Chionthar river valley. This would have merged their cultures, likely giving rise to the Talfiric people.

I theorized earlier in the thread that "the Talfir" might actually be a corruption of the Elven name Tethir, or it could be a word that references this Elf. Tethir was the Elven Dragonslayer who stopped the dragons from attacking Shantel Othreier and Keltormir. Tethyr, obviously, is named in his honor. If you actually look at the 2E Map of FR as opposed to the 3E Map of FR, the Wealdath is actually called the Forest of Tethir.

I do not believe they existed in the region in any significant numbers until after the Great Arrival in -7800 DR, which likely forced heavy northward tribal migration as the southern region was conquered, enslaved, and tamed by Calim and his Djen.

As Markustay points out, when we talk about the Talfiric people we should picture them similar to Native Americans. I would use a group such as the Uthgardt Barbarians as an in setting example. They are a distinctive ethnic group, yes, but divided into many different tribes that occupy a geographical region. This is likely what the Talfiric people looked like for most of their history, likely at various points establishing several petty, small, and long forgotten barbarian fiefdoms. This is the only way to explain (without using magic) why, according to Races of Faerun, "[t]he Talfir left little in the way of ruins or artifacts..." (pg. 109).

If they had an advanced culture, they would have left something behind. Instead, the main thing of note they left behind, according to Races of Faerun, is the Crypt of the Shadowking, located below Irieabor which was built after 34 DR, and the ruined city of Talis located near the heart of the Reaching Woods along the River of the same name (pg. 109).

We know Talis is not that much older than the Crypt of the Shadowking, due to its brief mention in Serpent Kingdoms (pg. 111). It marks it as being inhabited around 1 DR. Of course, Netheril fell in –339 DR, which means the city was probably built sometime after this point, and the Talfir had been absorbing the Netherese into their culture (and being changed by it) for hundreds of years. Not to mention that Jhaamdath got wiped out in –255 DR, causing people all along the Dragon Coast to enter into Talfiric lands.

So, it seems likely to me that throughout most of the history of the Talfiric people located in the Western Heartlands region, they were roughly as advanced as the Uthgardt Barbarians. At best they had petty primitive barbarian fiefdoms, which were overrun by Netherese Refugees after –339 DR. The Netherese brought with them not only their culture, but their skills and talents, and this began the creation of the first real Talfiric kingdom, which in turn became Ebenfar in 34 DR.

If we are sticking by what is written in canon, I do not see how it could have been any different. It may be a lack of imagination on my part, but I just don't see how else things could have evolved in this region based on the information that we have. Is there some information that I am overlooking?
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Aldrick
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Posted - 08 Mar 2015 :  01:19:38  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It should also be noted, that according to the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 63): In 140 DR "...tribes of lost Talfir cross the Sea of Swords and settle along the southern shores of the island they name Gwynneth, [fleeing the persecution of Ebenfar and its Shadowking]."

It is important to note here, that Grand History of the Realms clearly indicates that the Talfiric people were still largely tribal in nature prior to the rise of Ebenfar.

EDIT -

Another significant mention pointing to the fact that the Talfiric people were largely a tribal culture prior to the fall of Netheril, is the map on page 44 of Grand History of the Realms. On the map, the section of the Western Heartlands is marked clearly as "Talfir Tribes"--pointing to the fact that they were a tribal people during the time of Netheril.


Edited by - Aldrick on 08 Mar 2015 03:53:07
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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 08 Mar 2015 :  05:34:31  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You are right Aldrick, it may have very well occured that way, with the Western Heartland Tribes, becoming the Talfir, after merging with the tribes that first inhabited the forest of Tethir. Its actually similar to how reall wold entnic groups, cultures, and nations formed. With those tribes, possibly being originaly from Vilhon Reach, and and of the same grioup, as proto-Jhaamdathans. Talfir, being a deformation of Tethir is a brilliant idea, as the "Th" and "F" sounds are pretty similar, and transform quite often in laguages.

But there are hints in races of Faerun, that Talfir, and Tethyrans are connected:
quote:

Most Tethyrians speak Common as their primary language, usually
a singsong dialect known as Calant that is heavily influenced
by Alzhedo and popular along the Sword Coast. They
employ the Thorass alphabet. As Talfir and other languages of
the original western tribes vanished long ago, there is no ancestral
#8220;Tethyrian#8221; tongue.



quote:

The burgeoning reliance on the Shadow Weave across
Faer#251;n is reminiscent of a Tethyrian tradition called Talfirian
magic, dating back to the reign of Verraketh Talember the
Shadowking. Talfirian songs (see the appendix) are still known
to Tethyrian bards.



As Tethyrians are said to form, in well, the territories of Amn and Tethyr(at least first), I think Talfiri, or at least part of the group that would become Talfiri, had a presence in Tethyr.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 08 Mar 2015 :  08:22:16  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The second quote clearly marks it as after the rise of Ebenfar. It would seem that the magical practices of Ebenfar extended southward into the lands of modern day Tethyr.

I think the first quote is poorly worded. The Alzhedo tongue is native to Calimshan, I believe. As we know, the Calishites conquered the modern day regions of Tethyr and Amn. As a result, if we re-read the first quote with that in mind, "...Talfir and other languages of the original western tribes vanished long ago..." this simply indicates, like with the Talfiric language, it died out. The original human inhabitants of the region were also a tribal people, so they would have counted as part of the "original western tribes" description.

It is very difficult to imagine a reason that the Talfiric tribes migrate to the south. The obvious migration patterns would be along the coast of the Sea of Fallen Stars, north along the Sword Coast, or crossing over to the Moonshae islands--which many of them did according to canon, particularly to the island of Gwynneth.
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