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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  12:50:18  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I noticed some interesting connection between those two groups. The drudic language of Drueidan originated on Ilighôn and Wavecrest, that were once part of Jhaamdath. But Drueidan, is a part of the Waelan language group, spoke by the Ffolk. The original Ffolk who spoke Waelan, were of Talfiri stock. One of the Chessic(language of Chessenta, and Sespech) language subgroups, is called Telfir, and I think Mr Costa confimed the connection to Talfir was intentional. Chessic languages, while connected to Untheric, also developed under major Jhaamdathan/Chondathan influence.

Markustay also theorized that Talfiri and Chondathan/Jhaamdathan are connected.

So felleow scribes, what do you think?

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8553 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  12:58:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Chondath/Jhaamdath were right next to each other, so I've believed that the two influenced each other. In fact, I've even wondered if they didn't share gods.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  13:07:40  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Chondath/Jhaamdath were right next to each other, so I've believed that the two influenced each other. In fact, I've even wondered if they didn't share gods.



Actualy, Chondath developed out of the remains of Jhaamdath.
Or did you mean Talfir and Jhaamdath?
If so, I think they might have shared the faith in Silvanus, and possibly Eldath, as Eldath has an ancient shrine on Moonshae isles.

Edited by - Baltas on 18 Feb 2015 13:08:26
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
4900 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  13:09:00  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dont forget the ancient Turami people living around Unther and Mulhorand that were displaced by those empires and ended up migrating into eastern Jhaamdath.

I always wondered that two supposedly ancient peoples (that obviously didnt migrate from another plane/planet) might be connected somehow since almost all other human groups on Faerun actually come from another plane or planet and end up out competing the natives (which is pretty typical in the real world).


Prior to that the Crown Wars saw the dark elves bring a number of human slaves with them to the Western Heartlands area when they warred with the Vyshaan (Clan Hhune and Lord Illehune are connected).

I would imagine that the Turami people were the originals that existed around the Shaar area. The dark elves brought a group of them (probably a single tribe called the Telfir) to the Western Heartlands (then known as Keltormir) and from there they spread into the Anauroch Basin and lands in the north and south.

Then later when Unther and Mulhorand arrived the Turami people were booted out of the old empires region and made their way to Jhaamdath and from there a second (but much smaller) wave of migration may have occured into the Western Hearlands area.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  13:50:02  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, interesting idea. Although the Turami appear to be darker skinned, than what the Talfiri were supposed to look, and the Turmish square beards, remind me of mesopotamian cultures.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
4900 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  14:04:28  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just put that down to a few thousand years of separation and evolution

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5707 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  14:26:18  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are numerous references to human barbarian tribes existing within the woodlands of Keltormir. After a series of dragon assaults had carved up the forests, these human tribes settled the cleared areas within both Keltormir and the remnants of Shantel Othreier. In my Realms, these were the forbears of the Talfir.

The Chondathans were likely formed from human slaves of Ilythiir.

Races of Faerun notes that the Talfir were overwhelmed by a number of forces including Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast. But I think that's insufficient to form a language connection between the two. The original Ffolk likely did originate from the same barbarian humans that became the Talfir.

I postulate that if there is a link between the original Ffolk and the ancient inhabitants of Ilighon and Wavecrest, then that link is not racial but rather magical, or rather Druidic. The islands likely contain links with other Druidic places of power such as the Moonshaes - a network of Moonwells perhaps - sacred to all the nature deities (and perhaps created by the elves before the time of humans) allowing travel over vast distances and a minor but language altering mingling of racial sub-groups on a limited scale.

Well, at least that's my take on the subject.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4900 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  14:43:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And there was me expecting you would mention the Ice Hunters as predating the arrival of the Talfir in Keltormir because of course there were humans in the area prior to the war with Illythiir (if indeed the Talfir were brought by the Ilythiir which i think they were).

I cant believe i disagree with George over something. I shall just have to put it down to my lack of knowledge

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5707 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  15:05:46  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Ice Hunters are from the North and the likely progenitors of the Netherese. Just what would prompt a link between the Ice Hunters and Keltormir?

I don't think the source material supports a contention that the Talfir were brought from anywhere. There were always humans in the present day Heartlands area. It is logical that they became the Talfir and other sub-races.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4900 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  15:27:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the North and the Western Heartlands arent so very distant and indeed arent even separated by geography when you consider that the humans must have wandered freely among the forest largely ignored by the elves (they record them as being present but otherwise make no mention of them), who probably just made sure they didnt wander into their cities in the same way we try and keep out wild animals.

Maybe i am reading too much into Baltas' find of a link between the Ffolk and Chessenta but it has always bugged me that we have no point of origin for humans on Faerun. Just drawing on the idea that Clan Hhune of Illythiir brought human slaves with them (something hinted at in Cloak and Dagger) then they would have to be Turami slaves because there were no other humans around then (that we know of).

All human life on earth originates in that one point in Africa where they then branch out and become the various subgroups we have today.

I would really love to know where the original Torillian humans began (not the interlopers that arrived later).

If the Talfir were originally brought their by the Illythiir then that would give a likely point of origin in the Shaar/Old Empires region (which bears some similarity to the origin region on Earth - warm, semi arid, fertile river flooded plains) and would make the Turami the originals (also explains how the ancient gods like Shar and Selune got around so much if they were spread from the Old Empires to the Western Heartlands and from there spread to all other regions as interloper humans arrived from elsewhere and encountered these two ancient peoples. Plus humans evolve from apes and as far as i'm aware apes live in hot places so an origin of humans too far north isnt feasible.

Although that does leave the question of where the Ice Hunters came from but to be honest i always thought of them as a bit more neanderthal than human and thats why they could never compete with the other humans that repeatedly forced them out of their homelands. Perhaps the Ice Hunters were originally more primitive humans that mated with the Talfir to form the Ice Hunters as they are known in modern FR terms (an elf of Keltormir probably wouldnt be able to distinguish a homo erectus from a homo sapiens).



But its just mild musing on my part, George is pretty much guaranteed to be entirely correct and the Talfir and Turami are unrelated. Maybe there is no true native species of humans on Toril and they all arrived from elsewhere.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  16:31:35  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, Dazzlerdar, you're theory with Turami is is pretty interesting. From what we know, they have a a strong following of Chauntea, and their "Feast of the Moon", suggests that Selune was the Turami Goddess of Love, like in Netheril. I think that they could have also worshipped Pazuzu, in his guise/alias as Typhon. Set of the Mulan deities, could take that aspect when he arrived with his people.
It's also possible the Turami worshipped Jergal, seeing how his cult was on the very eastern border of the Chult Jungle. And I think there was some mention somewhere, of a cult of Jergal in the Shaar region...

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

There are numerous references to human barbarian tribes existing within the woodlands of Keltormir. After a series of dragon assaults had carved up the forests, these human tribes settled the cleared areas within both Keltormir and the remnants of Shantel Othreier. In my Realms, these were the forbears of the Talfir.

The Chondathans were likely formed from human slaves of Ilythiir.

Races of Faerun notes that the Talfir were overwhelmed by a number of forces including Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast. But I think that's insufficient to form a language connection between the two. The original Ffolk likely did originate from the same barbarian humans that became the Talfir.

I postulate that if there is a link between the original Ffolk and the ancient inhabitants of Ilighon and Wavecrest, then that link is not racial but rather magical, or rather Druidic. The islands likely contain links with other Druidic places of power such as the Moonshaes - a network of Moonwells perhaps - sacred to all the nature deities (and perhaps created by the elves before the time of humans) allowing travel over vast distances and a minor but language altering mingling of racial sub-groups on a limited scale.

Well, at least that's my take on the subject.

-- George Krashos



I also can't believe it, but like dazzlerdal, disagree with you on this one a bit with you George. Although it may be just me having an attack of insanity XD. The portal/Moonwell theory would work well, but the Telfir subgroup of Chessic, rather wasn't born from that.

My own theory, if the Talfir tribes existed within the woodlands of Keltormir since time immemorial, is that some of the Talfir could have gone south, and mingled with the natives there, creating the Jhaamdathi.
Or in a somewhat reversed version of dazzlerdal's theory, the Illythiir abducted and enslaved Talfiri from Keltormir, for some reason.
Maybe they made better workers for them, than the natives, among many reasons. Maybe a bit like the reasons why African slaves were brought to the Americas.

Edited by - Baltas on 18 Feb 2015 16:46:02
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4900 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2015 :  19:39:16  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry George, I just realised I may have come across condescending there when in actual fact I was trying for a light hearted attempt to suck up to my favourite realms master.

After a further thought on this. The idea of the Illythiir transplanting an entire tribe of their favoured slaves from the Shaar to Keltormir is a bit far fetched. Especially when there is no indication that humans lived in the Shaar at that time.

However indications from Ed are that there is a connection between the humans in the Tethyr/Amn/Western Heartlands area (shown by the name Hhune and Illehune). We know that humans did exist in Keltormir as far back as the arrival of elves in the forest so what if it was the other way around as Baltas suggested.

Taking a tribe of humans thousands of miles north while fighting a war is pretty far fetched, and then to expect them to thrive with all the other competition in the area is unlikely. But once the war is finished you bring back your favourite concubines and expendable shock troops (that you forced to breed with fiends like Gargauth) so you can have them be your slaves in your homeland. The darkelves that do this then become fabulously rich because they have a fast breeding capable slave race for sale to their immoral brethren.

Then of course the Illythiiri get cursed into drow and have to retreat underground. The slaves escape and they suddenly have a large expanse of land with no forest, no elves, and no competition. Cue the formation of the Turami.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8553 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2015 :  01:08:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Chondath/Jhaamdath were right next to each other, so I've believed that the two influenced each other. In fact, I've even wondered if they didn't share gods.



Actualy, Chondath developed out of the remains of Jhaamdath.
Or did you mean Talfir and Jhaamdath?
If so, I think they might have shared the faith in Silvanus, and possibly Eldath, as Eldath has an ancient shrine on Moonshae isles.



Sorry, meant Jhaamdath and Talfir (was meaning that Jhaamdath and Chondath are essentially related cultures just due to occupying nearly the same space, but the Talfir were neighbors who were probably involved with Jhaamdath).

Personally, I wonder about Jhaamdath and a lot of the other religions that are nature oriented. For instance, they were a culture that favored "the intellect" (with the focus on psionics and Auppenser). So, I could see them favoring Lurue for her support of intelligent animals (granted some may say she was only in the far North, but I'm of the mind that Lurue's worship was more widespread). Similarly, I could see both the Talfir and the Jhaamdathi sharing a worship of Oghma, as I believe the Talfir may have had several Celtic deities (as you note, they proably had Silvanus). I suspect that Gond came from here as well (as Goibhnie of the Celtic pantheon), and whenever the Talfir spread to the Moonshaes, possibly some of the fled to Lantan. I also kind of wonder if the Celtic goddess Brigit was part of this pantheon and possibly died somehow, bringing about possibly the strengthening and/or formation of Deneir, Milil, Ilmater, Eldath, and Sune Firehair (as either risen mortals or interloper deities from other pantheons), but that's not something I'd strongly push. If Brigit WERE to be used, I'd think having her die at the hand of the uncaring Primordial of Fire, Kossuth, would be appropriate.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2015 :  12:02:46  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting ideas sleyvas. Indeed, Lurue could have been once more populary worshipped, especialy that Ed wrote she had/has Mystra's place in his original realms.

[Edit]
Also, Lurue was among the goddesses that called Ecamane Truesilver to Silverymoon, to create a school of magic pattered on elf teachings. Gond being Goibhnie, or his realms counterpart is a pretty popular theory, that I think has some ground in canon, although Ed originaly paterned Gond of Hephastus. Then again, Gond lacks Hephastus' crippled aspect, which indeed brings him closer to Goibhnie, along with similary sounding names. This would also explain his ties to Oghma. Also, about Brigit, in myths, she was not only a goddess of fire, but of rivers, lakes and water. While something like that can seem strange, it wasn't uncommon in mythologies. Agni, is another god of fire, who also is connected to waters. This makes me think that maybe Eldath is Brigit's Realm's counterpart. Especialy that Brigit is Dagda's daughter, and Dagda is connected to Silvanus(Sucellus), and Eldath is presented in a daughter like role to Silvanus, or even called his daughter. Eldath also has an interesting rivalry with Tempus, a more, or less confimed Talfiri deity. On the other hand, the "Dath" part of Eldath's name, also may connect to Chondath, and Jhaamdath. Mielikki also called her Datha. the Dath part in Chondath and Jhaamdath, also reminds me of the Old Irish Tuath, or Tuatha, which means people, or nation.

An about dazzlerdal, your theory with the Turami, now I see what you wanted to do, explaining ancient human migrations and development, based on our how Homo Sapiens did travel from Africa in reall world. Although I think the migration of humans, was even earlier, probably during the ages of thunder, and Ages of dragons.

A bit outside of the topic, what do you guys think was the Turami pantheon, if it ever was? I think that it would include:
-Chauntea(the Turmish even today are known for respecting their land, they often bury valuables, as gifts to Chauntea).
-Selune, as the Goddess of Love and Moon(the Feast of the Moon being why I think so)
-Typhon(possibly originaly an aspect of Pazuzu, later absorbed by Set. Alternately, Typhon was an Raurin deity.)

I also like George's Moonwell theory, and while I think it could explain the connections between Chondathan and Talfiri cultures, as I wrote, it still leaves doubts on how the Telfir subgroup of Chessis came into being. I still will probabl use it in my Realms now, along with other great lore from George XD.

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Feb 2015 15:20:21
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eeorey
Learned Scribe

95 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2015 :  16:06:49  Show Profile Send eeorey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dath was the dynasty from which the warrior Jhaam who united the early proto-jhaamdathans came from and so the nation was named after him by his descendants/followers.

As a culture favoring intellect and philosophy I can see them worshiping Eldath, and perhaps they gave her that name. However as far as Lurue is concerned I have a lot of doubts since, like it was mentioned she haves a lot to do with elf teachings and nature. The Jhaamdathans had conflicts with the elves not just during their fall, but also during the early days of their nation, and considering how elves during such an early period saw/treated humans and that the dark elves who would become the drow were active in the region, the Jhaamdathans likely would have an aversion to anything to do with them, including worship of a deity who is too nature oriented and promotes elven teachings, culture, view or way of life.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2015 :  16:46:29  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I remember that, but I think the word Dath may mean something. It may mean "the people" or "the nation", like the Old Irish Tuath, making the Dath Dynasty, the "Dynasty of the People". Eldath may then mean something like "Peace (among) the People". Jhaamdath may mean "The Nation of Jhaam", or "The People of Jhaam".

Edited by - Baltas on 20 Feb 2015 16:53:35
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eeorey
Learned Scribe

95 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2015 :  18:03:23  Show Profile Send eeorey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Yeah, I remember that, but I think the word Dath may mean something. It may mean "the people" or "the nation", like the Old Irish Tuath, making the Dath Dynasty, the "Dynasty of the People". Eldath may then mean something like "Peace (among) the People". Jhaamdath may mean "The Nation of Jhaam", or "The People of Jhaam".



It is possible, as the third oldest human nation (only Imaskar and Calimshan are older), and as a one of the largest (Jhaamdath held territories from the Lake of salt to the Akanal, and from the Turmish peninsula to the southern Shaar, on top of that having many colonies spread as far as present day Impiltur) their influence would have spread, and as they were the ones who created the earliest form of Thorass (the precursor to many of today's FR languages, including Common) many others would have picked up on their influence. After all we have the Netherese remnant nation of Hlondath, and the "hlon" part I believe came from the name of their earliest ruler.
I like your idea of Eldath's name a lot. Dath could have become, with time synonymous with people/humans.
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Aldrick
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909 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2015 :  18:40:20  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Yeah, I remember that, but I think the word Dath may mean something. It may mean "the people" or "the nation", like the Old Irish Tuath, making the Dath Dynasty, the "Dynasty of the People". Eldath may then mean something like "Peace (among) the People". Jhaamdath may mean "The Nation of Jhaam", or "The People of Jhaam".



I really like this Baltas. I am totally stealing it for my home Realms.

We know for a fact that the faith of Eldath has been active in the Vilhon Reach for a very long time. The earliest reference to her that I can find in the lore for the region is 75 DR - the Year of the Clinging Death. It is clear that she was already well established in the region by that time, as her druids helped purify the water supply of some of the cities of the region.

Today she is worshiped as a Neutral deity there, and most of her faithful seem to be druids. The heart of the faith appears to be in Cedarsproke, which is in the Gulthmere Forest. The Temple there is known as the Grove. The only other major temple in the region is in Surkh (!), the city of Lizardmen. It overlooks the Deepwash. Outside of these two major temples, it has small shrines scattered all throughout the entire Reach, most notably in the following locations: Sapra (on the Isle of Ilighôn), Hlath (Chondathan port city along the Vilhon Reach), Hlondeth (one of the free cities and a thriving port south of Turmish), and Ormpetarr (the capitol of Sespech).

I think it is safe to argue that both the faith of Silvanus as well as the faith of Eldath originated in this region of the Realms. So I think you may be on to something with your theory.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
660 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2015 :  01:51:50  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad you both like my ideas, and especialy that you Aldrick, will use them in your Realms!

About Eldath, I think she could be a Talfiric deity, as the Myrloch Vale on the Moonshae isles, is connected to Eldath. Although I think that the Talfiri probably knew her under a diffrent name. Eldath may be a pretty old deity, quite possibly worshipped by a large number of races. Eldath is also worhipped by fey, particulary Nymphs. She also has connection to elves, most notably having a grove in the elven court, the elven war hero Telva, abandoning the way of warrior, and becoming her worshipper, and her being very close friends with the Elven/Fey power Sarula Iliene. I think there was even a suggestion in the Nixie Queen's article, that Sarula Iliene may be used in the Realms an alias of Eldath.

[Edit]

And of course, there are the Ondonti orcs who worship Eldath. Although they have a more clear origin, being descended from grey orc children raised in Ondathel/Myth Ondath.

Edited by - Baltas on 21 Feb 2015 07:22:59
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8553 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2015 :  15:18:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Interesting ideas sleyvas. Indeed, Lurue could have been once more populary worshipped, especialy that Ed wrote she had/has Mystra's place in his original realms.

[Edit]
Also, Lurue was among the goddesses that called Ecamane Truesilver to Silverymoon, to create a school of magic pattered on elf teachings. Gond being Goibhnie, or his realms counterpart is a pretty popular theory, that I think has some ground in canon, although Ed originaly paterned Gond of Hephastus. Then again, Gond lacks Hephastus' crippled aspect, which indeed brings him closer to Goibhnie, along with similary sounding names. This would also explain his ties to Oghma. Also, about Brigit, in myths, she was not only a goddess of fire, but of rivers, lakes and water. While something like that can seem strange, it wasn't uncommon in mythologies. Agni, is another god of fire, who also is connected to waters. This makes me think that maybe Eldath is Brigit's Realm's counterpart. Especialy that Brigit is Dagda's daughter, and Dagda is connected to Silvanus(Sucellus), and Eldath is presented in a daughter like role to Silvanus, or even called his daughter. Eldath also has an interesting rivalry with Tempus, a more, or less confimed Talfiri deity. On the other hand, the "Dath" part of Eldath's name, also may connect to Chondath, and Jhaamdath. Mielikki also called her Datha. the Dath part in Chondath and Jhaamdath, also reminds me of the Old Irish Tuath, or Tuatha, which means people, or nation.

An about dazzlerdal, your theory with the Turami, now I see what you wanted to do, explaining ancient human migrations and development, based on our how Homo Sapiens did travel from Africa in reall world. Although I think the migration of humans, was even earlier, probably during the ages of thunder, and Ages of dragons.

A bit outside of the topic, what do you guys think was the Turami pantheon, if it ever was? I think that it would include:
-Chauntea(the Turmish even today are known for respecting their land, they often bury valuables, as gifts to Chauntea).
-Selune, as the Goddess of Love and Moon(the Feast of the Moon being why I think so)
-Typhon(possibly originaly an aspect of Pazuzu, later absorbed by Set. Alternately, Typhon was an Raurin deity.)

I also like George's Moonwell theory, and while I think it could explain the connections between Chondathan and Talfiri cultures, as I wrote, it still leaves doubts on how the Telfir subgroup of Chessis came into being. I still will probabl use it in my Realms now, along with other great lore from George XD.




I like the idea that Eldath might be a lessened version of Brigit. My thoughts were along the lines of Brigit coming into conflict with other pantheons who didn't appreciate her having so many portfolios. She may have chosen to give them up voluntarily.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Eltheron
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Posted - 21 Feb 2015 :  16:47:55  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thinking of Eldath, I wonder if we aren't on to one of the "lost secrets" of how the Talfiric gods spread out and changed with time.

Eldath is a goddess of peace and serenity, with deep ties to "quiet" nature and even perhaps Springtime. The known Talfiric gods have ties to fury and dramatic change, including Tempus (change through war, land), also Talos (chaotic change, sky), Umberlee (destructive change, oceans), Auril (harsh winter, icy destruction). It's possible both Malar (rising up of angry beasts) and Loviatar (intentionally, actively causing pain) are perhaps Talfiric in origin, as they fit the theme.

But the gods of fury alone are unbalanced, and pantheons tend to like balance. So what if there's another "half" of the Talfiric pantheon? One of serene nature, peace, and slow growth and creativity? They'd need to be tied to nature, but reflect concepts to balance fury. Eldath fits this perfectly, but if this is actually a thing then we need to find other deities that could be Talfiric to complete the "balance" in other ways against the other fury deities.

Lathander is tied to morning, dawn, creative change and hope. Could he be Talfiric?

Chauntea seems to fit, a peaceful goddess of the growing earth. She promotes humanity through the careful tending of the earth and working with nature.

Lurue, the goddess of intelligent beasts, also has deep ties to magic - but magic that is more in line with promoting nature rather than controlling destructive energies or forces.

Mielikki fits very well, the goddess of "cooperative" and more peaceful forest beasts, or at least those willing to work with humans in concert rather than seeing humans as prey.

Shialia, now an Exarch (or demi-goddess) of birth (and perhaps rebirth) in nature/forests, also fits as a quieter, encouraging deity.

Shaundakul is the traveler, the rider of winds, the explorer. He promotes humanity through learning about new places and peoples, creating peaceful trading and caravan networks. Interestingly, he promotes mining which encourages development of tools and weapons for defense.

Milil might fit, as a wandering promoter of knowledge through song and creative works, poetry and elegant speech. He also uses a variety of things in "quiet nature" to inspire his faithful: songbirds, nightingales, white horses, even pegasi, but also roses, lilies, and even cut gemstones.

Gond might fit, being the creative wonderbringer. Tame the fruits of the earth (ores, gems, stone, lumber) and shape them into useful or beautiful things for human use. Also, he admires and promotes working with the more peaceful races deep in the earth or with ties to the earth: gnomes, dwarves, etc.

Interestingly, Ilmater the sufferer might also fit in. Perhaps he was originally a god of quiet endurance and striving for life, in the face of dangerous beasts, warring men, terrors of chaotic nature, and suffering/pain from illness and disease. He would almost be a lynchpin between the fury/serenity halves of the greater Talfiric pantheon. Total speculation, though.

Naturally, not everything will fit - and many of the gods have changed and transformed over time and shifts/merging in cultures. But I think the possibility of a "quiet, creative, peaceful" side to the Talfiric pantheon is an interesting idea to explore. And Eldath and other gods seem to fit in with this concept fairly well. What we have today is a blending of gods and cultures that clashed or merged, so peeling back time to look for trends isn't easy.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 21 Feb 2015 16:56:09
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Aldrick
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Posted - 21 Feb 2015 :  21:19:15  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Alright, let's start nailing down some dates, and see if we cannot tease some stuff out of published canon sources.

Races of Faerun (pg. 108-109) states that the group that became known as the Talfir were a human tribe wandering the great forest of Shantel Othreier, and were mentioned by the Elves.

Shantel Othreier was established during the Elven First Flowering which is between -24000 DR to -12000 DR, as noted by the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 10). We know that Shantel Othreier was active during this time because it was mentioned in -12000 DR in the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 12), and Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves (pg. 7) mentions them as one of the great Elven nations during the First Flowering.

In -17800 The Elven Realm of Keltormir (present-day Forest of Tethyr that spanned all of Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan) is founded by moon and green elves.

In -11700 DR Dragons attack the southern expanse of Shantel Othreier, setting it aflame. An elf by the name of Tethir, kin of Keltormir, single-handedly kills two ancient red wyrms and saves numerous lives. He becomes known as the Dragonslayer, and earns the respect of the dragons. After this event, human clans begin to settle in the clearings and meadows created by the dragon fires around Keltormir. This is from Grand History of the Realms (pg. 12).

In -10600 DR, at the end of the Third Crown War, Aryvandaar conquers Shantel Othreier. Then in -9900 DR, numerous elves from Illefarn and Llewyrrwood (present-day Neverwinter Wood) flee to the remnants of Shantel Othreier. This possibly means that they fled to Ardeep, rather than south toward Western Heartlands, however, since Ardeep is the only vassal realm of Shantel Othreier still resisting the Vyshaan after -10600 DR. This is from Grand History of the Realms (pg. 15).

In -9750 DR the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) is settled by moon elves and gold elves of Shantel Othreier fleeing the persecution of the Vyshaan of Aryvandaar. This is according to the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 16).

By -7950 DR Shantel Othreier is described as being "dwindling remnants" as they establish trade with Deep Shanatar and the elves of Darthiir. This is their last mention in the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 19).

====================

Okay, what does the above information mean? It means that the Talfiric people were active in the region sometime around -24000 DR to -7950 DR. It is noted that humans began to settle the region known as the present-day Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan around -11700 DR.

So, I want to take a moment to point out something interesting: The Elf who slew the dragons was named Tethir and was from the region the humans settled. Tethir sounds a lot like Talfir and Tethyr (not to mention that the Forest is occasionally called the Forest of Tethir in the Lands of Intrigue sourcebook). Is there potentially any connection? It seems too coincidental to overlook.

Speaking of Lands of Intrigue (Tethyr: pg. 3) speaks about the civilized races in the region. According to the source book Humans have been the dominant race in Tethyr for nearly 4,000 years. Zaranda assumed the throne around 1370 DR... so this would mean that humans have dominated the region since around -2630 DR. This puts it around the time Netheril evolves into a council called the High Mages of Netheril (-2758 DR) the founding of Mezro by an avatar of Ubtao in Chult (-2637 DR), the creation of the Great Glacier (-2550 DR), and the arrival of the God-Kings which spells the end of the Imaskari Empire (-2489 DR) All of this is from Grand History of the Realms (pg. 31).

In -7800 DR, the Great Arrival happens. This is when the noble djinni lord Calim arrives in Faerun, followed by Djen, an entourage of genies and their human and halfling slaves. He seizes all the lands south and west of the Marching Mountains and founds the Calim Empire on the present-day site of Caliimport. This is according to the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 19).

In -6060 DR the Humans and Dwarves work together to oust the last genies of Calim's Realm, and the human nation of Coramshan is founded. The alliance between the humans and dwarves collapses, due to the fact that the humans turn to the worship of evil deities. This is according to the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 21).

In -5980 DR the nation of Jhaamdath is founded when the human settlements north of the Chondalwood unite under the Dath Dynasty and its greatest psionic warrior, Jhaam. Jhaamdath eventually meets Coramshan near the Lake of Steam, and the two empires struggle for centuries over control of this area. This is according to the Grand History of the Realms (pg. 21).

Around -2600 DR the last known dwarves of High Shanatar fall on the northern slopes of the Sulduskoon River in battle against the Tavihr Dynasty of Calimshan. According to Grand History of the Realms (pg. 31). The Sulduskoon River is located south of the Starspire Mountains, which passes through modern day Tethyr. This marks the rise of the Tavihr Dynasty of Coramshan.

====================

According to Lands of Intrigue (Tethyr: pg. 6) only 40% of Tethyr's humans descend from immigrants from Calimshan and the city-states on the Lake of Steam. The rest came from natives that were occupying the land during the height of Shanatar and the slaves brought to Faerun by Calim and his servants. A sizable chunk are also said to have migrated from the Vilhon Reach, Lantan, Mintarn, and "other areas farther afield."

So, here is my theory. During the Days of Thunder there were numerous small human tribes active in the area. During that time, they were mostly enslaved by the Zhoukoudien, one of the batrachi empires. In the aftermath of its fall sometime after -31500 DR, likely culminating its full destruction during the Tearfall, which took place around -31000 DR.

Okay, so we have some native humans living in the region. After the Tearfall, even if they had adopted any of the batrachi deities, their culture was likely wiped out. So they are back to square one, living as hunter gatherers in tribal groups.

Fast forward to -24000 DR and you start seeing the Elves show up in the region, and we get the founding of Shantel Othreier. The humans likely mostly live on the outskirts of their society. Until -11700 DR when the dragons show up and really wreck their lands. The first human populations begin settling the present-day areas known as Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan.

The people who settled those lands likely came from the area that would eventually become known as Jhaamdath / the Vilhon Reach. They were likely wandering hunter gatherers who were following the rivers and the Lake of Steam.

By -7950 DR Shantel Othreier and Elven control of the region has declined significantly. As the elves gradually dwindle in numbers the humans are moving in from the south, connecting with the native human population in the modern Western Heartlands. They likely begin forming larger tribes and clans, settling and creating small villages, developing agricultural practices. They collectively call themselves the Talfir people. This name likely hearkens back to an ancient agreement made with Tethir as they came to settle the regions to the south. Talfir is likely a human corruption of the name Tethir.

It is, however, between the years of -7800 DR and -2758 DR that the Talfiric people truly develop a regional cultural identity. This is likely caused by two major events: the Great Arrival in modern day Calimshan and the formation of the council of High Mages of Netheril. This is a result of being hit from two pressures, one from the north, and the other from the south. From the south individuals are fleeing the regions of modern day Tethyr and Amn to escape Calim's slavers, forcing them northward. From the north the Netherese, approaching their Golden Age, are expanding their empire southward. So, the Talfiric people are sort of sandwiched in between these two groups.

There are some other major events that will ultimately put heavy pressure on the Talfiric people, and spell the doom for their native culture. Primarily the destruction of the Empire of Netheril in -339 DR and the fall of Jhaamdath in -255 DR, along with all the events creating pressures from Calimshan in the south, the Talfiric are simply overwhelmed with refugees and immigrants. This is when we start to see the more modern Western Heartlands starting to form.

All of this ultimately culminates in the first real empire to every truly occupy the Chionthar river valley, the empire known as Ebenfar which was founded in 34 DR by Verraketh Talember the Shadowking. (From Grand History of the Realms pg. 61.) The empire was comprised primarily of the native people of Talfir and refugee Netherese settlers.

This steers us more onto modern day and more known lore about the region.

It is likely that there were various petty kingdoms in the region prior to the formation of Ebenfar.

It should also be noted that Ebenfar, and obviously the Talfir prior to this, bordered the Serpentfolk Kingdom of Najara which occupied the lands of the eastern edges of the High Moor, north to the Greypeak Mountains, and the Marsh of Chelimber. Its heart was the Serpent Hills and the river valleys that meander through the region. It's capital city, Ss’thar’tiss’ssun, was located in the Forest of Wyrms. Their realm was originally destroyed by Ebenfar in a war in 90 DR (From Grand History of the Realms pg. 61.)

====================

It is likely during the creation of Ebenfar that a lot of stuff regarding the deities started to play out. Netheril and Jhaamdath had just fallen not too long before, and all of this was leading to a lot of refugees and immigration. This means cultural exchange of deities on a large scale. So, the creation of the modern day Faerunian pantheon was likely taking place in this region at this time.

We know that the Dawn Cataclysm happened prior to 714 DR (the Fall of Myth Drannor). So this falls in line with my theory regarding the Dawn Cataclysm, which happened as a result of the following pantheons merging: the Talfiric (Western Heartlands), the Netherese (modern day Anauroch region), the Coramshite (modern day Tethyr and Calimshan), and the Jhaamdathan (modern day Vilhon Reach). My belief has always been that as these pantheons merged together, Lathander attempted to become the leader of the Faerunian Pantheon and expel the evil deities. He failed, obviously, and his failure is why it is known as a cataclysm.

As these pantheons merged together, we received the modern day Faerunian Pantheon. A few others were added to the pantheon over time, but these original groups formed the core. The last two major human pantheons on the Faerunian continent were the Untheric and the Mulhorandi. We all know what happened to them.

...so yeah. Sorry that my thoughts are so disorganized, as a lot of this was stream of consciousness as I went through numerous source books. Hopefully it adds something to the discussion, however.
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Aldrick
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Posted - 21 Feb 2015 :  22:51:42  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, with migration patterns down, let's see what I can do regarding to the rise and fall of the various deities.

We know the complete list of the Netherese Pantheon:
Amaunator (dies)
Jannath (becomes known as Chauntea)
Jergal
Kozah (becomes known as Talos)
Moander
Mystryl (becomes known as Mystra)
Selune
Shar
Targus (becomes known as Garagos)
Tyche (splits into Tymora and Beshaba)

We also know some of the Jhaamdathan Pantheon:
Auppenser (dead? Sleeping?)
Valigan Thirdborn (Slain by Tyr)

Current Active Deities in the Vilhon Reach:
Eldath
Helm
Lliira / Waukeen
Malar
Nobanion
Silvanus
Talos
Tempus
Tyr

Okay, so here are my theories.

This region is the point of entry for the Finnish, Norse, and Celtic deities in the Realms. It has seen a number of different interloper deities. Deities who came over at various points:
Silvanus
Tyr
Loviatar
Oghma
Ilmater

There were also likely native beast cults that almost certainly originated in the region (particularly the Gulthmere Forest area):
Malar
Nobanion

Then there was likely a migration of some archfey who likely became deities as well. This is how Eldath gets involved, but more on that later.

Okay, so basically, we have these deities showing up as interlopers in this area. Ilmater likely originated as the Finnish deity known as Ilmatar. Ilmatar, however, was female. I suspect that there was a merger between Ilmatar and another deity, likely one that was brought over by the slaves of Calim. This is some type of deity of oppressed people, slaves, that teaches about enduring hardship, etc. He ultimately merges with the Finnish deity known as Ilmatar to become the being we know today as Ilmater.

Ogma, Dagda, Brigid, and likely others from Irish Mythology came over as interlopers.

Ogma became known as Oghma after merging with one or more deities, and likely was the Jhaamdathian deity of knowledge. His core center of worshiper was likely wiped out in the events that caused the fall of Jhaamdath. He was either originally known as Curna, and Oghma was the alias taken or he absorbed Curna later. The modern seat of his orthodox faith is in Procampur, located in the Vast. We know this is the region that many individuals from this region immigrated to after the fall of Jhaamdath. So there are strong signs that Oghma's faith originated here in the Vilhon Reach.

The interloper Silvanus was likely active in this region of the Realms as well, and he likely merged with Dagda. This is echoing back to the theories Baltas brought up.

Dagda was the father of Brigid, as he pointed out. Echoing back to his thoughts of Eldath and the Elven/Fey power Sarula Iliene, this may have been her original incarnation. Sarula Iliene could have originally appeared in the Gulthmere Forest area. She then merged with Brigit. This is how Eldath's story and Silvanus story get entangled.

Also, going with Baltas' mention that Eldath may actually mean something like "Peace (among) the People."

The deity Talos (pre-Kozah) likely originates either here or among the Talfir people.

The faith of Garagos likely originated in this region, or close to it. As the faithful of Targus came southward after the fall of Netheril, he claimed the name Garagos, prior to being defeated by Tempus.

It is undeniable that Tempus is a Talfir deity.

Waukeen likely originates from here, as the Chondathans are known for being merchants.

Chauntea (pre-Jannath) like Talos (pre-Kozah) likely originates either here or among the Talfir people.

Tyr certainly came over through here, as he is said to have slain Valigan Thirdborn.

This also likely puts Torm's ascension around this time frame as well, and the legendary realm of Chalsembyr or the High Seat. Perhaps it was destroyed as a result of what the Elves did to cause the fall of Jhaamdath? This would explain why no one can find it, since it was washed away by a magical tsunami. ...wow. That would really peeve off the Tormites.

There is some more fuel to add to the debate.

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Baltas
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Poland
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Posted - 21 Feb 2015 :  23:33:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting stuff, especialy with Brigid and Eldath.
About Tyr, from Ed and THO

quote:
Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").



So I guess Iltyr, could be Jhaamdathan form of Tyr, seeing the connection to both Beholders(psionics), druidism(elves), and omniscience(Blind But All-Seeing Eye), and the fact Iltyr is still worshippped in places connected to Chondathan settlers(Waterdeep and Cormyr).

I guess other forms of Tyr, were present in other protopantheons(Anachtyr being the Coramshan/Calishite aspect).
Tyr is sometimes in Norse mythology a son of the Giant Hymir. So maybe Tyr originaly came to Toril, as a lesser member of the Giant Pantheon, that overtime got more popular among humans, and ascended to greater godhood. He also possibly subsumed a Beholder deity.

[EDIT]
This would also explain Tyr's spread of various, yet similary named aspects. He would be a very old deity, and his various aliases would echo his original name, because he was either present in the region for very long(over 20,000 years), or merged with the local deity ages ago. Arrtyr Judge Of All, sound like a name of a Judge of Dead, so this could be Tyr's Talfiri aspect, after merging with Arawn. Arrtyr even sounds like a combination of Arawn and Tyr.

Edited by - Baltas on 21 Feb 2015 23:57:16
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Eltheron
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  00:57:34  Show Profile Send Eltheron a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like it, Aldrick. Remind me, though, what caused the downfall of the Batrachi? Do we know?

Conjecturing a little further along your lines with the Finnish import deities and Ilmater - it's said that Ilmatar (the Finnish female deity) was a goddess of air and nature. She would've blended into the Talfiric pantheon easily as it seems to have been very shamanic and nature-centric.

Folklore states that Ilmatar was the mother of Väinämöinen, the "first man" (perhaps the first human who broke his tribe away from the Batrachi, or the dragons?). Väinämöinen begged the "great bear" sky deity for help, and a boy (Lathander?) was sent to help - the boy was carrying seeds and promoted the growth of nature. Väinämöinen is also said to be the son of Kaleva (the male for which the Kalevala is named), and Väinämöinen's brother was named "Ilmarinen" the blacksmith or the hammerer. Perhaps Ilmarinen became Gond.

Stretching this speculation out really far, perhaps too far(!), we know an avatar of Mystra was a bear. But why? Seems very shamanic, right? As the Talfiric peoples and Netherese blended together, perhaps it wasn't a violent merging but a more peaceful one. Perhaps they had a totemic bear-god whose abilities included a shamanic type of magic, and eventually it merged in to the Netherese pantheon and became one of Mystryl's first exarchs/demipowers. Lathander helped the transition, but perhaps he was troubled by so many new destructive powers and the outright viciousness of the old Fury gods - eventually causing him to trigger the Dawn Cataclysm. It was the "dawn" of a new merged culture.

Some gods on each side grew in dominance, particularly Lathander and Talos, who slowly caused Amaunator and Kozah to fade in popularity and worship. And perhaps Ilmatar merged with a male shamanic god of healing and self-sacrifice (Ayuruk or Itishikopak, or both?), becoming Ilmater - and a central defining figure of their culture: strength is endurance, survival involves sacrifice for others. Interestingly, modern Ilmater can manifest as a howling/whimpering sound (related to air?) and move objects around (telekinesis/wind?), which would tie in nicely back to the air goddess Ilmatar.


"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer

Edited by - Eltheron on 22 Feb 2015 01:13:16
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Aldrick
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Posted - 22 Feb 2015 :  01:55:33  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron

I like it, Aldrick. Remind me, though, what caused the downfall of the Batrachi? Do we know?


Well, specifically for the Zhoukoudien Empire, it seemed to be the death of Zhoukoudien "The High one" after he is slain in battle by the titan Omo. (Grand History of the Realms, pg. 8)

However, more broadly, it was the Tearfall which happened around -31000 DR. The Tearfall is what created the Sea of Fallen Stars, and most of the Batrachi Empires were situated around that region. So, basically, they got wiped out by a giant falling rock(s). This also led to the rise of the dragons on Toril, as there were apparently dragon eggs attached to the comet(s) or ice moon that struck the planet.

As for the Finnish deities--it is hard to say, exactly where they appeared. Certainly, it was within this region. My hunch is that most of this took place in the region of modern day Vilhon Reach, though. Simply because we know there were lots of humans living in that region during that time, but they hadn't formed any major nation-states until -5980 DR. We also know, canonically, that humans began migrating south of the Western Heartlands into the modern day lands of Tethyr, Amn, Erlkazar, and Calimshan around -11700 DR.

It is likely that there were multiple waves of human hunter gatherer tribes and small mobile agricultural communities migrating. They would have naturally followed the rivers and the water. That would have lead them toward the Lake of Steam or across the Deepwash as traveling across the Orsraun Mountains would have been difficult. This would have lead them through Erlkazar or the Shining Plains, and as the Elves of Shantel Othreier retreated, they would have moved north to occupy the lands they left behind.

This ultimately means that immigrants from the south would have met up with the human tribes already present in the region. I suspect that it is sometime after this point, sometime between -11700 DR and -7950 DR when the "Talfir" people started to come together culturally.

If they had any major kingdoms or nations, though, they are forgotten or lost. We do not get a direct mention of the Talfiric people until 34 DR and the rise of the Empire of Ebenfar. By this time, however, it is clear that the Talfiric people are already well established, and they are absorbing Netherese refugees. It is unclear how many refugees they ended up absorbing, but it was clearly enough to pretty much wipe them out culturally.

I think it is undeniable, though, that the modern Faerunian Pantheon as we know it today was forged in the Western Heartlands. As it is clear that is the region where all these various cultures intersected one another. It was the mingling of these various peoples that caused the merging of the various human pantheons: the Talfiric (Western Heartlands), the Netherese (modern day Anauroch region), the Coramshite (modern day Tethyr and Calimshan), and the Jhaamdathan (modern day Vilhon Reach).

So, we are left with a sort of tangled knot. We know that these pantheons merged, but we don't know exactly where each deity came from.

We can, though, probably narrow it down to one of three pantheons: Talfiric, Jhaamdathan, and Coramshite. We already know every deity in the Netherese Pantheon, so they are an easy group to rule in or out as needed.

This means that the deities either originated in the Western Heartlands region, the Vilhon Reach region, or the Calimshan/Tethyr region.

Of course, if we want to throw an extra wrinkle in things, we can say that there were definitely mergers between THOSE pantheons with other pantheons and interloper deities prior to their merger into the Faerunian Pantheon. I think this is likely, and that explains the Finnish / Celtic / Norse / Irish deities -- or at least their names.
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