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Originally posted by sleyvas

Chondath/Jhaamdath were right next to each other, so I've believed that the two influenced each other. In fact, I've even wondered if they didn't share gods.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

There are numerous references to human barbarian tribes existing within the woodlands of Keltormir. After a series of dragon assaults had carved up the forests, these human tribes settled the cleared areas within both Keltormir and the remnants of Shantel Othreier. In my Realms, these were the forbears of the Talfir.

The Chondathans were likely formed from human slaves of Ilythiir.

Races of Faerun notes that the Talfir were overwhelmed by a number of forces including Chondathan settlers from the Dragon Coast. But I think that's insufficient to form a language connection between the two. The original Ffolk likely did originate from the same barbarian humans that became the Talfir.

I postulate that if there is a link between the original Ffolk and the ancient inhabitants of Ilighon and Wavecrest, then that link is not racial but rather magical, or rather Druidic. The islands likely contain links with other Druidic places of power such as the Moonshaes - a network of Moonwells perhaps - sacred to all the nature deities (and perhaps created by the elves before the time of humans) allowing travel over vast distances and a minor but language altering mingling of racial sub-groups on a limited scale.

Well, at least that's my take on the subject.

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Baltas

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Originally posted by sleyvas

Chondath/Jhaamdath were right next to each other, so I've believed that the two influenced each other. In fact, I've even wondered if they didn't share gods.

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Actualy, Chondath developed out of the remains of Jhaamdath.
Or did you mean Talfir and Jhaamdath?
If so, I think they might have shared the faith in Silvanus, and possibly Eldath, as Eldath has an ancient shrine on Moonshae isles.

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Originally posted by Baltas

Yeah, I remember that, but I think the word Dath may mean something. It may mean "the people" or "the nation", like the Old Irish Tuath, making the Dath Dynasty, the "Dynasty of the People". Eldath may then mean something like "Peace (among) the People". Jhaamdath may mean "The Nation of Jhaam", or "The People of Jhaam".

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Originally posted by Baltas

Yeah, I remember that, but I think the word Dath may mean something. It may mean "the people" or "the nation", like the Old Irish Tuath, making the Dath Dynasty, the "Dynasty of the People". Eldath may then mean something like "Peace (among) the People". Jhaamdath may mean "The Nation of Jhaam", or "The People of Jhaam".

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Originally posted by Baltas

Interesting ideas sleyvas. Indeed, Lurue could have been once more populary worshipped, especialy that Ed wrote she had/has Mystra's place in his original realms.

[Edit]
Also, Lurue was among the goddesses that called Ecamane Truesilver to Silverymoon, to create a school of magic pattered on elf teachings. Gond being Goibhnie, or his realms counterpart is a pretty popular theory, that I think has some ground in canon, although Ed originaly paterned Gond of Hephastus. Then again, Gond lacks Hephastus' crippled aspect, which indeed brings him closer to Goibhnie, along with similary sounding names. This would also explain his ties to Oghma. Also, about Brigit, in myths, she was not only a goddess of fire, but of rivers, lakes and water. While something like that can seem strange, it wasn't uncommon in mythologies. Agni, is another god of fire, who also is connected to waters. This makes me think that maybe Eldath is Brigit's Realm's counterpart. Especialy that Brigit is Dagda's daughter, and Dagda is connected to Silvanus(Sucellus), and Eldath is presented in a daughter like role to Silvanus, or even called his daughter. Eldath also has an interesting rivalry with Tempus, a more, or less confimed Talfiri deity. On the other hand, the "Dath" part of Eldath's name, also may connect to Chondath, and Jhaamdath. Mielikki also called her Datha. the Dath part in Chondath and Jhaamdath, also reminds me of the Old Irish Tuath, or Tuatha, which means people, or nation.

An about dazzlerdal, your theory with the Turami, now I see what you wanted to do, explaining ancient human migrations and development, based on our how Homo Sapiens did travel from Africa in reall world. Although I think the migration of humans, was even earlier, probably during the ages of thunder, and Ages of dragons.

A bit outside of the topic, what do you guys think was the Turami pantheon, if it ever was? I think that it would include:
-Chauntea(the Turmish even today are known for respecting their land, they often bury valuables, as gifts to Chauntea).
-Selune, as the Goddess of Love and Moon(the Feast of the Moon being why I think so)
-Typhon(possibly originaly an aspect of Pazuzu, later absorbed by Set. Alternately, Typhon was an Raurin deity.)

I also like George's Moonwell theory, and while I think it could explain the connections between Chondathan and Talfiri cultures, as I wrote, it still leaves doubts on how the Telfir subgroup of Chessis came into being. I still will probabl use it in my Realms now, along with other great lore from George XD.

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Tyr (known variously as "Achanatyr," "the Sword of Justice," "Arrtyr Judge Of All," and several other names (including Anachtyr), was indeed in the Jhaamdathi pantheon. And existed before that (so he's been around for at least FIVE thousand years). One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye (a huge weeping black [all pupil, no iris or sclera] eye that floats and flies about, trailing a small prehensile tail, and "speaks" boomingly in the minds of those near to it, discerning rights and intent and making judgements; very popular with individuals who desire a guide in life telling them precisely what the right thing to do is, whenever they seek moral guidance; there are secret worshippers of Iltyr among the nobility of Waterdeep and of Cormyr to this day, so if you ever find a curtained-off alcove in a nobles' mansion with a wall painting inside it that has any image that includes large, staring eyes that confront the viewer [or just one eye], you've found a private family chapel to Iltyr, something that's often explained away as "the only portrait we have of [[this or that illustrious ancestor]], but that very direct stare is disconcerting to everyone, so we keep it hidden away, just for us").

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Originally posted by Eltheron

I like it, Aldrick. Remind me, though, what caused the downfall of the Batrachi? Do we know?

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Originally posted by Baltas

One small, secretive underground Tyrran cult that has existed down all those centuries (with some beholder worshippers as well as humans, and a sprinkling of elves who cleaved to rigid order) is veneration of Iltyr, the Blind But All-Seeing Eye.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

The Sossrim & Ulutiun People: The native humans of the Great Glacier Region are likely responsible for the faith of Ulutiu, or adopted it from the giants. His faith, however, is active in this region. There is also a possibility that Auril could have been introduced by them to the Faerunian Pantheon. This is obviously heavy speculation on my part. However, I believe her High Priestess (Chosen?) was located on the Great Glacier for some time.

The Ulutiun people who live on Great Glacier, are natives to Kara-Tur. However, they arrived and settled with the Sossrim for a time in -1648 DR. They moved on, became lost, and ended up becoming the inhabitants of the Great Glacier.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

Okay, with migration patterns down, let's see what I can do regarding to the rise and fall of the various deities.

We know the complete list of the Netherese Pantheon:
Amaunator (dies)
Jannath (becomes known as Chauntea)
Jergal
Kozah (becomes known as Talos)
Moander
Mystryl (becomes known as Mystra)
Selune
Shar
Targus (becomes known as Garagos)
Tyche (splits into Tymora and Beshaba)

We also know some of the Jhaamdathan Pantheon:
Auppenser (dead? Sleeping?)
Valigan Thirdborn (Slain by Tyr)

Current Active Deities in the Vilhon Reach:
Eldath
Helm
Lliira / Waukeen
Malar
Nobanion
Silvanus
Talos
Tempus
Tyr

Okay, so here are my theories.

This region is the point of entry for the Finnish, Norse, and Celtic deities in the Realms. It has seen a number of different interloper deities. Deities who came over at various points:
Silvanus
Tyr
Loviatar
Oghma
Ilmater

There were also likely native beast cults that almost certainly originated in the region (particularly the Gulthmere Forest area):
Malar
Nobanion

Then there was likely a migration of some archfey who likely became deities as well. This is how Eldath gets involved, but more on that later.

Okay, so basically, we have these deities showing up as interlopers in this area. Ilmater likely originated as the Finnish deity known as Ilmatar. Ilmatar, however, was female. I suspect that there was a merger between Ilmatar and another deity, likely one that was brought over by the slaves of Calim. This is some type of deity of oppressed people, slaves, that teaches about enduring hardship, etc. He ultimately merges with the Finnish deity known as Ilmatar to become the being we know today as Ilmater.

Ogma, Dagda, Brigid, and likely others from Irish Mythology came over as interlopers.

Ogma became known as Oghma after merging with one or more deities, and likely was the Jhaamdathian deity of knowledge. His core center of worshiper was likely wiped out in the events that caused the fall of Jhaamdath. He was either originally known as Curna, and Oghma was the alias taken or he absorbed Curna later. The modern seat of his orthodox faith is in Procampur, located in the Vast. We know this is the region that many individuals from this region immigrated to after the fall of Jhaamdath. So there are strong signs that Oghma's faith originated here in the Vilhon Reach.

The interloper Silvanus was likely active in this region of the Realms as well, and he likely merged with Dagda. This is echoing back to the theories Baltas brought up.

Dagda was the father of Brigid, as he pointed out. Echoing back to his thoughts of Eldath and the Elven/Fey power Sarula Iliene, this may have been her original incarnation. Sarula Iliene could have originally appeared in the Gulthmere Forest area. She then merged with Brigit. This is how Eldath's story and Silvanus story get entangled.

Also, going with Baltas' mention that Eldath may actually mean something like "Peace (among) the People."

The deity Talos (pre-Kozah) likely originates either here or among the Talfir people.

The faith of Garagos likely originated in this region, or close to it. As the faithful of Targus came southward after the fall of Netheril, he claimed the name Garagos, prior to being defeated by Tempus.

It is undeniable that Tempus is a Talfir deity.

Waukeen likely originates from here, as the Chondathans are known for being merchants.

Chauntea (pre-Jannath) like Talos (pre-Kozah) likely originates either here or among the Talfir people.

Tyr certainly came over through here, as he is said to have slain Valigan Thirdborn.

This also likely puts Torm's ascension around this time frame as well, and the legendary realm of Chalsembyr or the High Seat. Perhaps it was destroyed as a result of what the Elves did to cause the fall of Jhaamdath? This would explain why no one can find it, since it was washed away by a magical tsunami. ...wow. That would really peeve off the Tormites.

There is some more fuel to add to the debate.

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Originally posted by Aldrick

The interloper Silvanus was likely active in this region of the Realms as well, and he likely merged with Dagda. This is echoing back to the theories Baltas brought up.

Dagda was the father of Brigid, as he pointed out. Echoing back to his thoughts of Eldath and the Elven/Fey power Sarula Iliene, this may have been her original incarnation. Sarula Iliene could have originally appeared in the Gulthmere Forest area. She then merged with Brigit. This is how Eldath's story and Silvanus story get entangled.

Also, going with Baltas' mention that Eldath may actually mean something like "Peace (among) the People."

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Originally posted by George Krashos


In the Dawn Ages, called by by some sages the Time of Dragons, the lands of modern-day Aglarond, Thesk, Ashanath, the Great Dale, Narfell and Impiltur were covered by a huge, nameless forest, of which the Yuirwood, the Forest of Lethyr and the Rawlinswood are the only surviving remnants. Primitive human tribes roamed this great forest, safe on the whole from the attention of the great dragons and later the giants who ruled.

Of these tribes, history has provided us with only a single name - the Yuir - and much of what we know about them comes from the unique means by which the Yuir, their history and some of their gods were subsumed into the historical record of the elves.

This grouping of human tribes, whom sages refer to as the Arthraen (from a bastardization of an elvish term for "forest hunters") had lived in the forests for millennia, eking out an existence whilst striving to avoid the predations of first the sarrukh of Okoth - who had a presence on what is now known as the Thaymount, which may have been a stronghold of the Ba'etith - and then the dragons and the giants who would raid the forests for food and slaves.

Elven history and the unique interactions between the elves who first came to the modern-day Yuirwood and the indigenous human population there, preserved some of the gods of the Arthraen. Those gods were Magnar, Relkath, Zandilar, Elikarashae and the Simbul. There were at least five others worshipped by the Yuir and assumedly by the the other humans of the forest lands. Their names and their areas of deific influence are lost to history. Sages and loremasters postulate that the known gods of the Arthraen had the following rough 'portfolios':

Relkath - nature
Magnar - war and strength
Zandilar - love and passion
Elikarashae - hunting and survival
Simbul - fate

It is thought that the Arthraen had gods for the sky/weather, hearth/home and tribal/familial life, and evil/darkness, but this is just postulation on the part of sages.

The last cohesive remnant of the humans known as the Arthraen were the ancient Nar. They turned away from the worship of their ancient gods and fell to venerating the dark powers of the Abyss. This occurred following their exposure to the horrors of Narathmault, the Dark Pit, known to modern historians as Dun Tharos. With the advent of their demon worship, all record of the ancient gods of the Arthraen was erased, save for what had been preserved in the Yuirwood.

-- George Krashos

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