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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Feb 2015 : 18:06:52
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the DND books am sure will come out eventually, but am really scared about the written books. I have a dreading feeling that with how long this setting has been paused, for written production we are losing the book writers.
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2015 : 18:13:36
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| Of course we're losing the writers, WotC isn't contracting new books from them. Really annoying that several storylines have been left hanging. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2015 : 19:22:12
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The setting isn't on pause.
All we've been getting is news about the Realms: adventures, novels, Sword Coast Legends for your desktop or laptop, the Neverwinter MMO expansion. Ed's been, by all accounts, writing like gangbusters for the Realms.
We should expect a minimum of seven to ten months between the release of the last Core Rulebook and a new Realms Campaign Guide.
Keep it real, people. It's better that way. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2015 : 22:00:05
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| I do keep it real, and as a customer it is annoying. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2015 : 23:05:17
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| I'm really curious about how the Sword Coast Legends turns out. Dragon Age Origins was the absolute bomb diggity. Better than Inquisition in a way. So definitely hoping the DAO folks can make Legends awesome. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2015 : 23:40:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
The setting isn't on pause.
All we've been getting is news about the Realms: adventures, novels, Sword Coast Legends for your desktop or laptop, the Neverwinter MMO expansion. Ed's been, by all accounts, writing like gangbusters for the Realms.
We should expect a minimum of seven to ten months between the release of the last Core Rulebook and a new Realms Campaign Guide.
Keep it real, people. It's better that way.
The reality is that there has been a sharp reduction in realms novels since 2012 and there is no indication that they plan on increasing the output. A lot of us only consume the Realms through the novels, so for us this is a pretty sad state of affairs. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2015 : 00:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
The reality is that there has been a sharp reduction in realms novels since 2012 and there is no indication that they plan on increasing the output.
On the plus side there's no indication that things will stay this way forever.
I'm optimistic because WotC's recent job opening announcements suggest they are in the process of outsourcing the editing process--something to my knowledge they've only ever done in house.
This is a full 180 from the early days of 3E, when designer commentary suggested they were not interested in contracting with third parties because it was a cumbersome, time consuming process.
If WotC are successful at outsourcing more work (whether it's editing or anything else), then I think we can expect the release schedule for print products to ramp back up. The idea being that outsourcing is supposed to lower cost, without necessarily compromising on quality.
Given that there are only a few novels coming out, I'd think that regular readers will devour them, which hopefully produces sales beyond WotC's expectations. Also, I hope fans will go over the novels with a fine toothed comb and point out any lore errors, because whomever is editing ought to know as much about Realms continuity as they do about grammar and about how to edit someone else's work.
The idea of outsourcing has come a long way in the last fifteen years. I hope this business model works. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 16 Feb 2015 00:11:36 |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2015 : 04:29:47
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Jeremy I appreciate you trying to be positive I really do.
There's been no indication at all that they are expanding the novel line.
If they were really interested in doing so, they would have timed such to coincide with the release of 5E as part of the roll-out.
That's not saying that they won't...just that they've given no indication that that is likely.
Remember Troy Denning was orgininally supposed to have a followup book to the Sentinel according to interviews given around the Sundering launch timeframe but nothing has come of that.... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2015 : 19:01:20
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| I would like to see more novels by some of the older authors (Elaine, please!), along with those currently writing in FR. I agree with Tanthalas that it's annoying how so many story lines have been left hanging. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2015 : 23:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Given that there are only a few novels coming out, I'd think that regular readers will devour them, which hopefully produces sales beyond WotC's expectations. Also, I hope fans will go over the novels with a fine toothed comb and point out any lore errors, because whomever is editing ought to know as much about Realms continuity as they do about grammar and about how to edit someone else's work.
The idea of outsourcing has come a long way in the last fifteen years. I hope this business model works.
I think this is way off of what is really going on. I don't have any actual numbers to back this up, but I'm betting that WoTC has almost no budget for DnD from Hasbro. So they are most likely working on a business model of minimizing costs and maximizing gains. That means any work where money has to be paid upfront is restricted to priority projects. Which is probably why we only have 3 authors currently writing. Adding more would require paying advances which WoTC probably doesn't have the budget to do anymore.
I'm also assuming that the outsourcing to places like Kobold Press and to various freelance designers/writers is done on a "pay when work is delivered" model. This is not a state of affairs that bodes well for FR and DnD. This market has never been a big growth market and I think they are finally seeing this. There is a set number of fans and a lot of competition out there for new fans that didn't exists 10-20 years ago.
Ultimately I hope you're right. But I don't think that good sales of the novels is going to result in more novels produced. I think their MO going forward is to squeeze as much money out of DnD as possible with minimal money invested. FR's best best fiction-wise would be to have a 3rd party publishing house acquire the rights to publish FR novels the way Star Wars novels used to be published. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 00:59:41
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I should think that Hasbro has been around long enough to understand that money cannot be made without being spent.
It must be noted that the gaming market is much different than it once was.
When D&D came out, your options for gaming were pretty much limited to board games.
Since then, we've seen the rise of video games, computer games, MMOs, and mobile gaming. And the publishers of D&D have gone from being the only name in roleplaying to the dominant name in RPGs, to one among many, trailing a competitor that has been wildly successful with WotC's own discarded rules.
The gaming market has changed dramatically in the last two decades. The money spent on gaming is spread amongst competing rulesets, MMOs, console games, and mobile games. There is a smaller piece of the pie available for even the most successful company, and WotC has to change in order to stay afloat.
I wish people could realize that the fact WotC will never be what it was doesn't mean they're not going to give us products we want. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Feb 2015 01:07:06 |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 01:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I should think that Hasbro has been around long enough to understand that money cannot be made without being spent.
It must be noted that the gaming market is much different than it once was.
When D&D came out, your options for gaming were pretty much limited to board games.
Since then, we've seen the rise of video games, computer games, MMOs, and mobile gaming. And the publishers of D&D have gone from being the only name in roleplaying to the dominant name in RPGs, to one among many, trailing a competitor that has been wildly successful with WotC's own discarded rules.
The gaming market has changed dramatically in the last two decades. The money spent on gaming is spread amongst competing rulesets, MMOs, console games, and mobile games. There is a smaller piece of the pie available for even the most successful company, and WotC has to change in order to stay afloat.
I wish people could realize that the fact WotC will never be what it was doesn't mean they're not going to give us products we want.
I think Hasbro recognizes a market that isn't a true growth market. The fan base is steady and static for the most part. That's why I think they aren't taking risks on things like novels where there is a significant upfront investment for no guaranteed return. Who knows, maybe novel sales were way down over the last few years of 4E and they got spooked. I certainly wouldn't be surprised considering the number of people here who refused to purchase anything post-3E.
And I do realize that WoTC isn't what it was. But I'm worried that because of that, they're not going to give me what I want....which is more novels. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 01:41:12
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| As long as they've got NYT best sellers in their stable, they're not going to forego novels. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 02:36:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As long as they've got NYT best sellers in their stable, they're not going to forego novels.
I don't think they ever will or can. I still believe that novels bring in a large percentage of profits for DnD. I just think that WoTC is not able to invest as much money into getting 10-12 novels out per year as they used to. I'd love to find the numbers, but I'm betting a bunch of the 4E novels didn't perform to expectations.
But I also want to add that they do seem to be keeping a tight focus on the product. Maybe it's to keep things simple so they can attract new customers. If that's the case then maybe more novels per year would be a bit much for people new to DnD and FR.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 02:40:53
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There were some good novels that came out of 4e, even if the edition itself wasn't great. I was unhappy with things like the Spellplague and the death of certain deities, but I read the novels because I wanted to know what would happen.
I miss the amount of FR novels there used to be. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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ErinMEvans
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 20:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by hobbitfan
Remember Troy Denning was orgininally supposed to have a followup book to the Sentinel according to interviews given around the Sundering launch timeframe but nothing has come of that....
That book's still coming. It just hasn't made it onto Amazon yet.  |
www.slushlush.com |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2015 : 23:02:38
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| I think WOTC needs writers; since the rpg hobby needs to have new people getting interested in the hobby. Getting new exiting fantasy novels out, is one. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 16:13:05
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quote:
Remember Troy Denning was orgininally supposed to have a followup book to the Sentinel according to interviews given around the Sundering launch timeframe but nothing has come of that....
Considering that Denning wrote a lesbian RAPE scene into his book and then totally glossed it over, I have ZERO interest in seeing anything from this author ever again. D&D, Realms, Star Wars, whatever - he crossed a serious line, and I'll never buy anything by him ever again.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 17:50:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I still believe that novels bring in a large percentage of profits for DnD.
In more ways than one. Novels provide crossover potential to the tabletop D&D game, D&D MMOs, comics and the greater gaming community.
The more authors that get work, the better it is for everyone. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 19:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Remember Troy Denning was orgininally supposed to have a followup book to the Sentinel according to interviews given around the Sundering launch timeframe but nothing has come of that....
Considering that Denning wrote a lesbian RAPE scene into his book and then totally glossed it over, I have ZERO interest in seeing anything from this author ever again. D&D, Realms, Star Wars, whatever - he crossed a serious line, and I'll never buy anything by him ever again.
I don't remember every single scene in the book, but I know I never got this impression. I still think you're overreacting. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 19:52:56
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Has anyone tracked the NYT Bestseller ranking of FR novels for say, 2005-current?
I'd be curious to see if the 4e decline in the RPG was likewise reflected in the novel line as well, or if the novel line was largely unaffected (if able to be inferred by aggregate rankings on the NYT list being similar for the years pre-4e and 2008 and later). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 20:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Remember Troy Denning was orgininally supposed to have a followup book to the Sentinel according to interviews given around the Sundering launch timeframe but nothing has come of that....
Considering that Denning wrote a lesbian RAPE scene into his book and then totally glossed it over, I have ZERO interest in seeing anything from this author ever again. D&D, Realms, Star Wars, whatever - he crossed a serious line, and I'll never buy anything by him ever again.
I don't remember every single scene in the book, but I know I never got this impression. I still think you're overreacting.
The sex was off-page, but referred to quite openly in the book. Arietta was confused afterwards, and there was absolutely no authentic lead up to any kind of genuine romantic or sexual feelings. The ultimate goal, as well, was to pressure her to commit suicide.
And I'm not surprised you didn't see a problem. Many men, heck, many people, seem to think that drugging someone and having sex with them (overriding their consent) is "okay" -- when it's clearly rape. Joelle did the same thing to Arietta with an empowered charm spell. Drugs or magic, a rape is a rape. If you think that's overreacting, I feel nothing but pity for you because you just don't get it.
Forcing someone into sex with the intent they commit suicide -- it's blatantly there in the book, and you think I'm overreacting. Amazing.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 18 Feb 2015 20:51:31 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 20:38:28
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| Yes, I still think you're overreacting... |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 20:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
Yes, I still think you're overreacting...
And I think you're in total denial of the truth.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 21:07:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Has anyone tracked the NYT Bestseller ranking of FR novels for say, 2005-current?
That's a good idea. Not sure what the next step is to get this done, though. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 21:43:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Remember Troy Denning was orgininally supposed to have a followup book to the Sentinel according to interviews given around the Sundering launch timeframe but nothing has come of that....
Considering that Denning wrote a lesbian RAPE scene into his book and then totally glossed it over, I have ZERO interest in seeing anything from this author ever again. D&D, Realms, Star Wars, whatever - he crossed a serious line, and I'll never buy anything by him ever again.
I don't remember every single scene in the book, but I know I never got this impression. I still think you're overreacting.
The sex was off-page, but referred to quite openly in the book. Arietta was confused afterwards, and there was absolutely no authentic lead up to any kind of genuine romantic or sexual feelings. The ultimate goal, as well, was to pressure her to commit suicide.
And I'm not surprised you didn't see a problem. Many men, heck, many people, seem to think that drugging someone and having sex with them (overriding their consent) is "okay" -- when it's clearly rape. Joelle did the same thing to Arietta with an empowered charm spell. Drugs or magic, a rape is a rape. If you think that's overreacting, I feel nothing but pity for you because you just don't get it.
Forcing someone into sex with the intent they commit suicide -- it's blatantly there in the book, and you think I'm overreacting. Amazing.
Eltheron just shut it down. Implying that he approves of the above actions you stated, just because he doesn't agree with your interpretation of the novel makes you look like an idiot.
So quit trying to stir up trouble and offend people. I'm frankly sick of it. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 18 Feb 2015 21:43:50 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 21:53:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Eltheron just shut it down. Implying that he approves of the above actions you stated, just because he doesn't agree with your interpretation of the novel makes you look like an idiot.
So quit trying to stir up trouble and offend people. I'm frankly sick of it.
There's a big difference between stirring up trouble and pointing out the truth.
Sometimes, the truth is ugly. Sometimes it's uncomfortable.
I am not denying that the book glosses over the rape, but the ACTIONS in the book taken by the characters are undeniable. There's nothing to "interpret" there.
Being blind to the truth is a choice. If you're mad because you want to remain blind to what happened, that's all on you.
If you answer the question "is forced sex under a 'roofie' rape?" as yes, but then try to pretend that Joelle didn't do the exact same thing with magic instead of a drug, then the problem is with you.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 23:49:35
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I guess you don't read George R R Martin then.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2015 : 23:59:05
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The reason why I don't see it as rape is pretty simple: we never see Arietta regretting her actions. The best you can come up with is "that she felt disoriented afterwards" (and even then I think you're blowing this out of proportion).
You could interpret that as being under the effects of the charm spell still, but I never viewed Charm spells to be that powerful (even if Joelle is a chosen) and I doubt that the ritual would even work if Arietta didn't have true feelings for her.
Things aren't as simple as you want to force everyone to believe. And people disagreeing with your interpretation doesn't suddenly make them monsters that believe that drugging a person to rape them is a-ok. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2015 : 00:07:13
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| I never got the impression it was rape. Joelle charmed practically everyone around her, but I don't think she used the charms on Arietta to the extent that it could be considered rape. Arietta had genuine feelings for Joelle, so it was consensual. I don't remember all the details from the book, but I think if it had struck me as rape, it would have stood out to me. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11691 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2015 : 00:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I guess you don't read George R R Martin then.
-- George Krashos
Love that man. Wish he'd do the next book. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Am scared about the written future for this
