Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Fallen deities you would like to see restored.
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 3

Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe

Ireland
705 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2015 :  22:02:45  Show Profile Send Shadowsoul a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I would love to see a return of Moander and Ibrandul.

I don't know what it is exactly but I like their backstory.

“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien

*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*.

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3802 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2015 :  22:08:28  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is already a similar thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19271&SearchTerms=5e,pantheon

Anyway, after the Sundering novels the deities I long to see restored are Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Sehanine. Luckily it looks like the former two are already probably safe. Sehanine will most likely be a goddess on her own as well, given that many of the merged detieis have been reported as separated in the new PHB list.

Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things.

Edited by - Irennan on 14 Feb 2015 22:18:45
Go to Top of Page

MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  04:16:27  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like Leira
Go to Top of Page

LordofBones
Master of Realmslore

1477 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  12:10:33  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Savras and Velsharoon, because I find them and their relationship with Azuth to be more fascinating than whatever Mystra's doing right now.

The drow pantheon, except Token Good Teammate.

Go to Top of Page

hobbitfan
Learned Scribe

USA
164 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  15:36:18  Show Profile Send hobbitfan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I want the halfling pantheon back without our major goddess being an aspect of another goddess.
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  15:51:43  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm good with the "all the gods are back, just not all of them are in the foreground" option, but I'd like to see some foreground info on Elistraee and Leira.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
Go to Top of Page

Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  16:22:33  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All. If every deity that has been ever mentioned in FR is in the Pantheon it will be nice and big. I think just about every full addition to the game added at least one deity. In 4e which killed and altered a bunch added some, such as Zephyr, Obould, Fzoul, and maybe a couple others.

Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  16:45:22  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm an oddball, in that I want the pantheon restored to how it was in 1375ish. I like the Dead Three being dead, but I want the drow and other racial pantheons restored, and I want the whole "this racial deity is actually this human deity!" thing to be chucked.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  17:17:15  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm rather curious as how Myrkul and Kelemvor will work out myself. Perhaps they will both continue duties?
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  17:27:04  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I'm rather curious as how Myrkul and Kelemvor will work out myself. Perhaps they will both continue duties?


Maybe instead of one god being judge and jury of the dead, they'll have to work together? Kinda like a panel of Judges?

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  17:27:05  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And now that I think about it, how will the Crown of Horns and Myrkul's essence in it going to play out?
Go to Top of Page

Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1446 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  17:27:41  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I'm rather curious as how Myrkul and Kelemvor will work out myself. Perhaps they will both continue duties?


Maybe instead of one god being judge and jury of the dead, they'll have to work together? Kinda like a panel of Judges?



I was wondering that too. It'd be a "balance" for the dead.
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  17:30:05  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

I'm rather curious as how Myrkul and Kelemvor will work out myself. Perhaps they will both continue duties?


Maybe instead of one god being judge and jury of the dead, they'll have to work together? Kinda like a panel of Judges?



I was wondering that too. It'd be a "balance" for the dead.



It's an idea with a lot of good potential. Hopefully whoever gets to write out the official lore does a good job.

I'm not well read on the Crown. Is it possible that Myrkul leaves part of himself in the Crown as a backup?

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  19:06:59  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm an odd ball like Wooly. Basically, I want the option for ALL of the deities to be back, but the exact details of what is going on with the gods to be kept murky. So, for example, there would be cultists who would believe Myrkul is back, but the lore should leave enough space open so that it could be a lie. The power granted to the priests of such a cult could be coming from another source, who is simply using the name and identity of Myrkul.

Outside of that, I want there to be plenty of room for heresies and misunderstandings among the faithful. I want there to be some people who still believe in Amaunator, and I want there to be some people who still believe in Lathander. I want there to be some people who believe that such-and-such god is really an aspect of this deity over here, and for the conflict between those faiths to play out accordingly.

I do not want the deities to have the ability to run around and dispel these things as heresies or myths. In fact, I am not opposed to using Ao to specifically make it impossible for deities to reveal absolute divine truths to their faithful. This means no more direct communication, except through symbolic means such as dream visions or odd manifestations of power. No more avatars running around telling mortals specifically what to do.

Ao should "punish" the deities by making them subservient to their worshipers, as he pledged to do during the Time of Troubles. This would mean that the belief of mortals can literally shape and reshape a deities perceived reality and existence, forcing the deities to conform to the beliefs of mortals.

Losing the power to strip mortals of their divine magic who veer off into heresy, the deities must find indirect ways to guide and nudge their mortal faithful toward the objective that they want in order to maintain their current persona.

This leads to conflict within the faiths as well as outside the faiths, and conflict is a good thing because that is what fuels stories and adventures.

With this out of the way, we can shove the deities to the background, and then focus on their mortal cults. It will also hopefully prevent a lot of the deity vs deity craziness that happened in previous editions, ending forever the cycle of Mystra dying over and over.
Go to Top of Page

Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  19:34:43  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For me it's not about having deities return so much as having simple, concise blocks of information highlighting the differences between temples, and practitioners, of the same faith.

If some of those faiths happen to be of deities presumed dead or merged with other gods, all the better.

For me this takes the view away from a grand overview and puts it right where it should be: standing in Realms dirt.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
Go to Top of Page

silverwolfer
Senior Scribe

789 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  22:19:53  Show Profile Send silverwolfer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
<-< I don't want that sort of cop out.

I want everything back, and don't bother explaining how it works.

That feels awful from a readers perspective.
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  22:34:59  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

For me it's not about having deities return so much as having simple, concise blocks of information highlighting the differences between temples, and practitioners, of the same faith.

If some of those faiths happen to be of deities presumed dead or merged with other gods, all the better.

For me this takes the view away from a grand overview and puts it right where it should be: standing in Realms dirt.



I really would like this. For me, what made Faiths and Avatars, Powers and Pantheons, and Deities and Demigods so worthwhile was they gave more details on what each deities' priesthood was like. I honestly am ok with a paragraph description of a deity, their basic tenants, allies, that sort of thing. What I want to know about is the priesthood, their rituals, the way they worship the god or goddess they follow, the way they dress, both for ceremony and daily life, holy days, how they serve humanity. Are priests of Waukeen serving as bankers and priests of Lathander as midwives, and Kelemvor priests performing last rites? How do the common folk look to these priesthoods for help? That's the kind of lore I like to read about.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
Go to Top of Page

Aldrick
Senior Scribe

909 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  23:01:20  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by silverwolfer

<-< I don't want that sort of cop out.

I want everything back, and don't bother explaining how it works.

That feels awful from a readers perspective.


I didn't mean not give an explanation. The cultists themselves would have an explanation, and there may be several other explanations out there from different cultists with differing philosophical points of view or political agendas.

This is exactly the way it should be from a novel readers perspective. The novels are not written from an omniscient perspective, and you see and experience the Realms through the eyes of a particular character. As a result, it is their point of view that matters.

"The Truth" is only a concern for DM's or the authors of the story. If DM's want there to be a definitive truth in their world, that's fine, but canon can afford to leave it murky. There is absolutely no reason that Myrkul needs to spell out in detail to his mortal followers why and how he returned, or that it needs to be revealed that Myrkul remains dead and it is really Cyric acting in his place in an attempt to diversify his worshiper base. People already know, thanks to the Sundering, that wonky stuff went on with the deities and the world. From there, it is easy enough for them to draw their own conclusions.

And, once again, there should be several canon theories and perspectives put forward by various cultists.
Go to Top of Page

MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  23:32:19  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myrkul seems like he would be a god of decay, exhaustion, old age, and nasty parts of death. Whereas, Kelemvor would be the neutral impartial judge of the dead. I think they could easily both exist simultaneously without overlapping.
Go to Top of Page

Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  23:50:22  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kelemvor is a bit of a dull and boring lad, though. None of the fire one would expect from an ascended once-mortal.

More to the point, he does indeed seem to overlap with old Jergal. I would personally prefer to see Jergal take the station, a much more interesting fellow and arguably (after so many millennia) much wiser and potentially more potent.

Speaking of dull and boring, even predictable, deities, though ... I also think Helm and Torm and Tyr are (to my mind) clearly redundant entities. No need for such a martial trinity to exist when a single powerful god could serve their combined portfolios more efficiently.

[/Ayrik]
Go to Top of Page

Delwa
Master of Realmslore

USA
1268 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2015 :  23:54:49  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog

Myrkul seems like he would be a god of decay, exhaustion, old age, and nasty parts of death. Whereas, Kelemvor would be the neutral impartial judge of the dead. I think they could easily both exist simultaneously without overlapping.



In the 5E PHB, Myrkul is listed as the god of death, and Kelemvor god of the dead. I think what you suggest works well with those descriptions. Myrkul is the god of the actual act of dying, and Kelemvor rules over departed souls themselves.
This seems further supported by the fact that Bhaal is listed as the god of murder. So the act of killing someone is Bhaal's domain, but the actual process of dying is Myrkul's. Granted, they are splitting the frog's hair pretty thin, but I like semantics, so I'm ok with this.

- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!

"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus
Go to Top of Page

Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  01:33:21  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps Jergal's trick is to absorb the power of ascended mortals, and so avoid the divine rot/decay that is effecting other deities like Mystra and Tiamat.

Thus Kelemvor becomes a shell and a puppet.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
Go to Top of Page

Rymac
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  01:47:39  Show Profile  Visit Rymac's Homepage Send Rymac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa

In the 5E PHB, Myrkul is listed as the god of death, and Kelemvor god of the dead. I think what you suggest works well with those descriptions. Myrkul is the god of the actual act of dying, and Kelemvor rules over departed souls themselves.
This seems further supported by the fact that Bhaal is listed as the god of murder. So the act of killing someone is Bhaal's domain, but the actual process of dying is Myrkul's. Granted, they are splitting the frog's hair pretty thin, but I like semantics, so I'm ok with this.



Kelemvor is the god of natural death as well as departed souls. I seem to recall Kelemvor being against undeath, as well as the prolonging of life by unnatural means.

There is alot of that hair-splitting going on, especially when Velsharoon is added into the mix.

Edited by - Rymac on 16 Feb 2015 01:48:49
Go to Top of Page

Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
826 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  02:07:40  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Paul Kemp, Jeff Grubb/Kate Novak, Elaine Cunningham, Richard lee Byers


Restore them to the realms. Pay them whatever you have to to get them writing again WOTC. I am sick of seeing less and less realms books
Go to Top of Page

sfdragon
Great Reader

2285 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  05:11:59  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
kelemovr is god of the dead.

myrkul is the god of death.

Jergal is just the scribe of the D... and he is also the deity that throws awesome parties.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
Go to Top of Page

Stones Finder
Acolyte

Canada
30 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  06:04:20  Show Profile Send Stones Finder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Wooly on this - I'd like to see deities more or less as they were in late 2e - early 3e. I was unhappy when Bane came back (especially since it seemed to me like an afterthought - there's nothing suggesting it in the handful of products that came out before the FRCS, and several references to Xvim as an ongoing concern), was less happy when Bhaal came beck, and I really hope Myrkul stays in the Crown causing trouble for his successors, because it's more interesting than one more evil death god coming back. I'd like to see the racial pantheons come back - the slaughter of the drow gods was a travesty, and the idea that most of the elvish gods were actually human gods under different names, the elves (and 3 editions worth of gamers) were just too stupid to notice was one of the things that really turned me against the 4e Realms. I would like Moander and Ibrandul to stay dead, because some deaths really should be permanent, and because those deaths were handled well. Leira I'm on the fence about, but it makes sense that the goddess of illusions could fake her own death and come back later.

On the whole, I'm torn between my hatred of retcons on general principle, and my dislike of most of the changes sledgehammered into the Realms for 4e. There's nothing they can do that won't alienate someone, but I'm still hoping they find a happy medium - without setting off another round of edition wars.

Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it - Advice for the 5e design team
Go to Top of Page

JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
243 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  06:11:36  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd like to "most" of the deities restored without ever defining which ones have, and have not, been restored and then a list of the "most commonly worshipped" deities which has a top 20 or top 30 deities worshiped. Then let writers of realms related articles, sourcebooks and novels use priests of whichever deity they so desire.

DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures.
Go to Top of Page

Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe

USA
495 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  07:52:01  Show Profile Send Old Man Harpell a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Stones Finder

I'm with Wooly on this - I'd like to see deities more or less as they were in late 2e - early 3e. I was unhappy when Bane came back (especially since it seemed to me like an afterthought - there's nothing suggesting it in the handful of products that came out before the FRCS, and several references to Xvim as an ongoing concern), was less happy when Bhaal came beck, and I really hope Myrkul stays in the Crown causing trouble for his successors, because it's more interesting than one more evil death god coming back. I'd like to see the racial pantheons come back - the slaughter of the drow gods was a travesty, and the idea that most of the elvish gods were actually human gods under different names, the elves (and 3 editions worth of gamers) were just too stupid to notice was one of the things that really turned me against the 4e Realms. I would like Moander and Ibrandul to stay dead, because some deaths really should be permanent, and because those deaths were handled well. Leira I'm on the fence about, but it makes sense that the goddess of illusions could fake her own death and come back later.

On the whole, I'm torn between my hatred of retcons on general principle, and my dislike of most of the changes sledgehammered into the Realms for 4e. There's nothing they can do that won't alienate someone, but I'm still hoping they find a happy medium - without setting off another round of edition wars.



The edition wars are pretty much over with the introduction of 5th Edition and the Sundering. When James Wyatt himself says that an edition has 'gone off the rails' (referring to 4th Edition), that's basically an admission that something wasn't done correctly, and that now something's come along to fix it. All that remains is for WotC to give the gamers the same love they gave the novel readers.

Deity-wise, I, too, am in Wooly's school of thought, exactly as his first post in this thread reflects. Ao needs to get off his all-powerful tush and make it so. Sure, let the various sects of a single faith each claim they are the true way, but the 1370's had proven they worked by way of religions, there's no reason to not restore them.

- OMH
Go to Top of Page

Rymac
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  17:33:07  Show Profile  Visit Rymac's Homepage Send Rymac a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell

The edition wars are pretty much over with the introduction of 5th Edition and the Sundering. When James Wyatt himself says that an edition has 'gone off the rails' (referring to 4th Edition), that's basically an admission that something wasn't done correctly, and that now something's come along to fix it. All that remains is for WotC to give the gamers the same love they gave the novel readers.

Deity-wise, I, too, am in Wooly's school of thought, exactly as his first post in this thread reflects. Ao needs to get off his all-powerful tush and make it so. Sure, let the various sects of a single faith each claim they are the true way, but the 1370's had proven they worked by way of religions, there's no reason to not restore them.

- OMH



The problem with 4e was that the Realms was nuked alongside its release. Don't get me wrong, I never got into 4e. However, WotC/Hasbro nuking the Realms lost the goodwill of their primary customer base - veteran roleplayers. The conversations I had in those times is that people defended the edition, but not the current version of the Realms. I couldn't separate the two, and it drove me away from the game for awhile.

As for keeping this on topic, yes, if I could do it my way, I would go back to the pantheons from the 2nd edition's Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities, alongside other 2e supplements that tweeked stuff just a bit, like the adventure For Duty & Deity. I didn't mind the return of Bane. I always imagined Iyachtu Xvim as a being Bane used to ensure his survival through the Avatar crisis. Iyachtu Xvim metastasizing into Bane reborn is horrifically beautiful.

Edited by - Rymac on 16 Feb 2015 17:34:45
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2708 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2015 :  18:58:59  Show Profile Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I joined this discussion late, but here are my thoughts.

As a fan of the gods--they are one of my favorite elements of the Realms--I would like to know for certain which ones are back. I don't like the uncertainty of "maybe X god has returned, maybe he/she hasn't. Up to you!" That's fine from a gaming perspective, but as far as lore and the novels...not so much, IMO. For one thing, that negates previous lore, at least to me. We have all these sourcebooks and novels involving deities--I feel we should respect that and not play the "maybe" game. They don't have to be as active as they have been in the past, but a deity can be alive and still be mysterious, giving their followers only indirect information, like through dreams or visions. I'd rather know for certain which deities are back. I agree that there came a point when the avatars running around was too much, but I also think that removing the gods from the Realms takes away from the Realms itself, as they are a part of the setting. They can have more limits on them than they used to, as some suggested, but I would still like to see them as a part of the Realms.

I personally like Kelemvor as god of the dead. I think the god of the dead should be neutral, but I'm okay with that balance between Myrkul and Kelemvor others have mentioned.

I would like to see Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Mask, Sehanine, Hanali (as their own entities), Lathander (as Lathander, not Amaunataur) return.

I keep editing this post because things come to mind I want to add.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 17 Feb 2015 01:28:49
Go to Top of Page

jordanz
Senior Scribe

553 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2015 :  23:59:37  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Azuth. I remember a funny scene in an old novel where he is having an idle conversation with Elminister. A hoard of powerful fiends attempt to ambush/kill him from behind. He dismisses them casually , without turning his head or even missing a beat in his conversation with Elminster.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 3 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000