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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2015 :  06:15:13  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mas adventuring companies:

1. Samdaer's Doomaxe

2. Durligo's Twelve Arrows

3. Faedra's Merry Reavers

4. Company of the Black Tear

5. Company of the Blazing Firewind

6. Company of the Dracohar

7. The Four From Immersea

8. The Nine Gorgons of Battlerise

9. The Knightshields of Dhedluk

10. The Dragonteeth

11. The Slydaggers

12. The Twelvefold Trollkillers

13. The Glimmerboots

14. The Skullcloaks of Sunset Hill

15. The Wildblades of Suzail

16. The Company of the Dead Barge

17. The Surly Anandjacks of Arabel

18. Lightheart's Bloody Hammers

19. The Moondelvers of Priapurl

20. Blackthroat's Tyrant Kings

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2015 :  17:34:51  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

Edit: what if you took the stone heads and mortared them into a defensive wall? Hah!



Nice! Maybe this was done on one of those infamous places that nobody seems to know anything about, like the Keep of Sir Dirlar on the edge of the Vast Swamp.

Or just use the front half of the head, placed as the knocker on a door. You knock (or just walk within range), the eyes open, you roll a saving throw.

Some people really don't like uninvited guests.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2015 :  17:58:52  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

a dinner plate-sized flat disk of gold, with the face the golden lion and set into a dust and web covered desk in the heart of the Haunted Wing in the Royal Palace, which began to emit a three toned chime, attracting the attention of nearby undead.


I need to know more about this thing.


quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

7. A newly risen temple consecrated to both Tyr and Bane. A pair of priests and their followers run the place. Both claim to be descended from other such priests of each faith that have quietly worked together for centuries in Cormyr.


When I was working on the churches of Mulhorand's God-Kings, I didn't want to have just one monolithic church for each of them so I decided to give them fuzzy sects, based loosely on alignments because it seemed reasonable at the time that each sect would have goals that lined up with alignments. When I realized that motives are more complicated than that (like Republicans aren't all LE and Democrats aren't all CG, I guess) it kinda shut down work on the sects because I didn't have an easy way to organize them.

But! The original thought gave me the idea for a LG sect of Set allied with LG sects of various other God-Kings including Horus-Re and Osiris, both of which usually oppose Set. So this is all a windy way of saying I dig this idea and I think more people should play with it.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2015 :  07:42:40  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looks like we'll be having a baby tonight, so no regular daily post from me.

Xaeyruudh and dazzler, you're in charge.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2015 :  08:31:37  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does that mean we get to say mean things to you then since you will be missing a day (or 300)

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2015 :  08:53:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and congratulations.

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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  06:14:48  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Does that mean we get to say mean things to you then since you will be missing a day (or 300)

Yes it does.

Though I would prefer it if you you unleashed your considerable imagination to the tune of ten fresh ideas about Cormyr.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Oh and congratulations.

Thank you.

My first son, this one. Like the universe he is very gassy.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  08:30:48  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First son, or first child. If its first child then i can only wish you good luck, it was a huge shock to my system having the first one. The only thing more difficult was having the second.

I doubt i could come up with 10 ideas about Cormyr. It takes me several months of reading just to come up with one, but i'll see what i can do, although they will probably be in the form of questions to be answered rather than anything else.

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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  11:10:15  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thank you. We can use all the luck we can get. This little one is our second child. A hungry baby too.

Ten questions is good. Ten ideas, good or bad, is good too. On this thread I am shooting for one good idea in a hundred tries, so there is plenty of room to fail.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  11:46:07  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i just read something in my Cormyr archive about House Merendil.

Supposedly an early and devious noble house of Cormyr. In 376 DR Lady Ryndala Merendil tried to have Crown Prince Azoun (later King Azoun I) killed and were subsequently exiled from Cormyr.

The Merendils spread across the realms and changed their names and many of them still plot against Cormyr.


This in itself is unremarkable since exiled noble houses with eternal grudges seems to happen once a century in Cormyr. What is remarkable is their link to a dragon named Oraundalaghhaumtalattor.

He supplied them with blood that gave them strength, vigour and long life, but also allowed him to control them. He is a white hued dragon (not white dragon, like thauglor is purple hued) that lived in the Thunderpeaks. First sighted by humans in 176 DR and noted by elves prior to the human arrival in the Forest Kingdom. His last sighting was in 1226 DR, but the Merendil scions have been spotted talking to him and worshipping him etc.


So this ancient dragon occupied the same territory as Thauglor, manipulated the humans like Thauglor (well at least like we think Thauglor might with his tampering with the weave) and even used his human agents against House Obaskyr (whom Thauglor may have been influencing).

It cannot be a coincidence. Perhaps the Forest Kingdom was a contested kingdom long before the elves and humans arrived and everyone became pawns in the game of chess the two dragons were playing.

Maybe Thauglor also influenced his agents through vials of his own blood like Oraundalaghhaumtalattor did. Perhaps Thauglor lives on in the scions of House Obaskyr who are generally strong, vigorous, and long lived kings.

Perhaps Azoun V could be the latest manifestation of Thauglor. That would be an interesting alternate take. Azoun V is trying to curb the powers of the nobles because the Merendils and other traitors are among them and Thauglor wants them gone so he can continue to survive.

What if the Devil Dragon was part of Oraundalaghhaumtalattor's manipulations (Lady Rhyndala Merendil did become a Ghazneth) and perhaps targetting the Lords Who Sleep (the dragon defenders of Cormyr) was part of Oraundalaghhaumtalattor's plan as Thauglor planned to use their bodies to come back to life (he just needed one of them to drink his blood).

Maybe the fate of Vangerdahast is to become Thauglor or Oraundalaghhaumtalattor reborn.


There we go, thats my idea for the day/week


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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  11:58:50  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and i now have the means for Ghazneths to appear.

If dragon's blood can extend the life of a person. Perhaps dead dragon's blood (necromantically infused of course) can bring a person back to unlife, in some hideous undead fashion.

I wont be making the Ghazneths invincible, but powerful undead nobles augmented by large quantities of dragon blood are going to be quite a dangerous weapon.

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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  12:56:09  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

Looks like we'll be having a baby tonight, so no regular daily post from me.


Congrats!

(we need a smiley with a kazoo and confetti...)
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Misereor
Learned Scribe

164 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  13:52:19  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dammit! I hope you find the ****** responsible!


Just kidding, congrats mate.

What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  15:38:50  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Oh and i now have the means for Ghazneths to appear.

If dragon's blood can extend the life of a person. Perhaps dead dragon's blood (necromantically infused of course) can bring a person back to unlife, in some hideous undead fashion.

I wont be making the Ghazneths invincible, but powerful undead nobles augmented by large quantities of dragon blood are going to be quite a dangerous weapon.



Why respin existing lore when you could, just as readily, make it something new? If you're changing the backstory and abilities of these guys, might as well call them something else, as well.

After all, enemies are one thing the Dragon Throne has never had in short supply.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  15:58:12  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have you any suggestions on some enemies?

I like to keep things almost the same but not quite, but thats just so that anyone can use it (including people that like the novels or not but havent got the time to plot their own campaign in the area). The changing of backstory is not quite what i've done, they will be servants to the devil dragon (or so she thinks) they will be formerly dead enemies of Cormyr, but their method of reanimation will be different (mostly because i dont know how they were originally animated).

I prefer to think of novels as someone elses story, but more than that they are one persons interpretation of a possible chain of events, so a historian looking back on the documents about the event, or perhaps the events told from the perspective of key participants that survived. Either way how can they know exactly how the Ghazneths came to be or what their abilities were short of someone asking the devil dragon herself (and she's dead). Attempts to divine things can be imprecise, eye witness accounts can be fraught with misinterpretation so saying they are immune to weapons could just be because the soldier couldnt land a solid blow (due to the skill of the ghazneth being fought or the soldier in question). Either way, reinterpretation can breath new life into things which is what i like doing.


At the moment i'm just formulating ideas on rewriting the war between Cormyr and the devil dragon. Justification for these events is a key part of the process for me. It all has to make sense within the rules of the setting and so i need alternative and credible reasons for mass troop movements, the use of gates, and resurrected, long dead, seemingly invincible enemies. But i think i've got them in basic form now.

I certainly think the war should include other elements. The Xraunrarr obviously had incited the nobles to fight each other in the years prior to it (i think the Bleth and Cormaeril exiles were probably a result of that). The war ended that infighting but the elements of this near civil war might still be hanging around.

There are plenty of bandits to the west and north of cormyr, hobgoblins and goblins, and orcs galore in the Stonelands. The Vast Swamp is full of evil, and that doesnt include outside elements like Sembia and the Zhentarim. Given a weakened and embattled Cormyr it would be most surprising if those elements didnt try to join in. In fact a few destroyed settlements were probably not touched by Grodd goblins at all but by one or more of these other enemies.



I wonder why the name Ghazneth was chosen? I like to try and find justification for names and places and people in existing lore, maybe i shall have a look and see what links i can find (even if they are going to be spurious at best)

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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1853 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  16:51:37  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I'm no Jeremy Grenemyer and Cormyr isn't my usual home-away-from-home, but there are a few things I've wondered about and I can toss some ideas about. I'm not familiar with the whereabouts of the Xraunrarr and other hidden threats in Cormyr, so those may conflict with some of these ideas. Feel free to educate me.

East of the Vast Swamp there's a swatch of rough terrain -- the Infested Hills. Technically they're in Sembia I suppose, but whatever's in those hills has the potential to affect life and livelihood in eastern Cormyr.

With a name like the Infested Hills, they have to be... well, infested with something. We could just ask Ed, but (1) that's probably already been asked and he hasn't had the time or freedom to reply yet, and (2) there's always room to come up with our own theories.

Here are a few possibilities. In some cases the population of the hills shapes their vegetation, so the descriptions will conflict with each other.



  • Giant ants. In the center of the hills, still guarded from discovery by the swamp and great colonies of giant ants, is a strong and growing formian society. They have three cities, and two more are nearing completion, with work beginning on several more. The (currently) five queens cooperate and share information. Through charmed captives they've learned much of Sembian politics and defense. Myrmarches have overseen the digging of tunnel networks under Daerlun, Kulta, and much of the High Dale; it's planned that taskmasters and warriors will dwell therein to supervise the human workers when they are incorporated into the formian colonies. Whenever the queens give the order...


  • Bats. The hills have been eroded by a combination of rains and fogs coming off the Inner Sea and scouring winds out of the Thunder Peaks. Patches of soil remain in the valleys, supporting thickets of undergrowth and small copses of trees. The barren rocky heights and ridges are riddled with caves, mostly shallow but some with deeper recesses. Inevitably, some hold tunnels leading down into the darkness, but no modern explorers have gotten past the bats to find them. The caves are home to millions of bats, ranging from small insect-eaters to huge beasts that henceforth haunt the nightmares of those who see them. Over the 1000+ years of human habitation in these lands, several outlaws and recluses have chosen these hills for their escapes and some of their bloodlines have survived to the present day... in a manner of speaking...


  • Beasts of Malar. The proliferation of these creatures surrounds a fortified abbey in the hills, controlled by the followers of Malar. Despite the distinctive coloration of the beasts, few people have encountered them and survived to tell about it, and most who do assume that they are just exceptional specimens with bloody claws and maws. Thus, the Malarites' base has developed unsuspected. However, that will change in the near future... the population of beasts has grown to where they hunt across eastern Cormyr and western Sembia.


  • Carnivorous plants. Assassin vines, phantom fungus, and so on. The hills are covered with a thick tangle of nettles and vines and creepers. The plants are spreading, creating a constant battle for farmers in western Sembia.


  • Cockatrices. Nuff said.


  • Death kisses. Mutant beholders, with blood-draining tentacles in place of eyestalks.


  • Deepspawn. Not a bad idea, but in danger of being over-used in my opinion. They seem to be a go-to monster when you need a lot of monsters. Not that there's anything wrong with that; I just wanted to explore some other possibilities.


  • Eyeballs. Tiny beholderkin. Individually, not much of a threat to an armed adventurer, but if dozens of them find you at the same time...


  • Firenewts. Relatives of the lizardfolk. In this case there needs to be a volcanic hotspot under the hills or a portal to the Elemental Plane of Fire... some way to make them significantly warmer than the surrounding region.


  • Gibberlings. The hills are alive, with the sound of Taz.


  • Goblins. Of course there could be an offshoot of the Stonelands tribes over here, but it's going to involve some extra work to explain why the Infested Hills have never been identified as a source of goblins (or anything else) in past products. The infestation needs to be pretty low-key, at least up through the 1370s, and goblins are not low-key.


  • Grigs. These sprites are about 1.5 feet tall, with kinda grasshopper-like bodies. They're described (3.5 MM 235) as mischievous and lighthearted, but also as fierce and fearless. Put enough of them together, and give them the idea that the hills are their homeland, and you have a belligerent and deadly threat to human explorers. The grigs will capture and drive-to-insanity anyone who comes into the hills, and make retaliatory invasions into human-controlled areas to destroy farmland and homes, sabotage equipment, steal food, and kidnap children. Children, after all, aren't totally human yet -- they appreciate tricks and pranks, they laugh easily and eagerly, and they can be taught to respect the fey... in short, there's still hope for them, if you reprogram them early enough.


  • Groundlings. Badger-like humanoids have been reported in Cormyr, Sembia, and the High Dales, but the common belief is that some kind of lycanthropes are dwelling in the hills. The ancestors of these groundlings (MoF 57) believed they'd escaped the Zhentarim; they didn't realize that the Black Network's control runs in their blood. The Zhentarim is letting them build up their numbers before retaking control, in order to pursue their long-term plans in Cormyr, Sembia, and the Dragonreach. Unaware of their eventual fate, the groundlings are just trying to survive, which means remaining as unseen as possible... contrary to Daerlunians' fears, they don't have the ability to take human form.


  • Hellwasps. Swarms of hellwasps (3.5 MM 238) cover the hills. Their inhabit ability explains the unwillingness of Cormyrean and Sembian forces to purge the hills.


  • Jermlaine.


  • Killmoulis.


  • Kobolds. This would be a possible place for a kobold kingdom -- perhaps in decline or perhaps just 95% subterranean. If the kingdom is thriving, that would suggest that some places in Cormyr, Sembia, and the High Dale (anywhere with a nearby tunnel giving the kobolds access to the surface) have a perennial problem.


  • Leucrotta.


  • Otyughs.


  • Phasms. I find this to be an interesting choice, because I haven't read anything about them being present elsewhere in the Realms. Phasms (3.5 MM 208) are highly intelligent shapechangers who can assume any form up to large size. This means they're able to judge a threat and respond accordingly, giving human intruders the impression that the hills are infested with wild beasts when in fact the phasms have probably long since killed everything that's big enough to pose a threat to them. The small variety and possibly large numbers of beasts they find in the hills might lead humans to suspect deepspawns, which are intimidating or impossible to get rid of, thus lowering human motivation to clean up the hills. The phasms take human form often, and walk the streets of nearby settlements. Some of them become adventurers and leave for a time, but most travelers return to bring back knowledge of the world around and to enjoy being among their own kind. In some ways they're more dangerous than doppelgangers --they're more intelligent-- but they might not have the doppelgangers' callous disregard for other beings. In short, they're only dangerous if provoked, but they provide the DM with lots of opportunities for spreading information and misinformation (any creature or object nearby can overhear PCs' and NPCs' discussions and mention it to other humans in its effort to blend in with civilization).


  • Rust monsters.


  • Shocker lizards.


  • Spider eaters. Of course, where there are eaters there must be spiders too, but unlike the Spiderhaunt Woods and other places named for the spiders, the eaters are dominant here. Still, the spiders are enough of a threat to humans to prevent the hills from being cleansed.


  • Stirges.


  • Tarrasques. Billions of these suckers, all over the hills. Just seeing if you're paying attention.


  • Troglodytes.



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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  18:06:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Have you any suggestions on some enemies?

I like to keep things almost the same but not quite, but thats just so that anyone can use it (including people that like the novels or not but havent got the time to plot their own campaign in the area). The changing of backstory is not quite what i've done, they will be servants to the devil dragon (or so she thinks) they will be formerly dead enemies of Cormyr, but their method of reanimation will be different (mostly because i dont know how they were originally animated).



That's pretty much changing the backstory.

My thinking is that something is of more use if it exists in the grey area that exists between what canon covers and what it doesn't cover. Jeremy has given us a lot of good stuff in this thread, and it's almost all been playing in that grey area.

If I was running a Cormyrian campaign and sticking mostly with canon, I've prolly already moved past the war against the Devil Dragon and its results. Using variant ghazneths doesn't work, because 6 of the 7 ghazneths are already destroyed. Or if I want to do an era before the war, it's not appropriate to use ghazneths.

Going with your fellblooded critters, though, and calling them something else, I can use them in any era, regardless of whether the war against the Devil Dragon is in the past, future, or not happening at all. I can even tweak them pretty readily to use anywhere else.

So the greater utility is not in re-spinning something existing and calling it the same thing, it's in re-spinning something existing into something else and renaming it.

IMO, of course.

As for potential enemies... Any number of Sembians, whether individuals or part of the government. Any number of nobles, including bad seeds in otherwise loyal families. Zhents. Red Wizards. Independent wizards. Dragons, maybe or maybe not connected to Thauglor. Any Obarskyr bastard, or offspring of the same. Any number of other intelligent critters. Apparently loyal renegades in other positions, like the Highknights or the War Wizards. The list continues...

It doesn't even have to be someone who has an issue with Cormyr. Maybe the Cult of the Dragon has a need to spend some time at a particular site in Cormyr, and they know they'll never be able to do it while Cormyr is stable. It's really important to them, though, so they enlist some folks, soup them up with spells or dragonblood or whatever, then unleash them to cause trouble elsewhere. While Cormyrian authorities are focused on the bigger threat, the Cult is doing its thing without being bothered.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Mar 2015 18:07:48
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2015 :  19:58:40  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I haven't reached 137x yet (in fact my campaign has no date yet since its running in a redesigned Night Below so its set mostly underground and the date doesn't matter) but since im partway through designing a Moonshaes campaign it will be set 1345. So whatever I do will be for me to use first and foremost.

It would be good to do a proper follow up to the Death of the Dragon storyline though. Such a radical change in the nation should have resulted in major changes in society.

Lots of death and destruction, an increase in monster populations, a decrease in defence forces, a weaker monarchy, a weaker nobility.

Such things are ripe for exploitation. The Fire Knives are likely to have a resurgence given the events alluded to in Cloak and Dagger. The Iron Throne would make a killing from the war. The Xraunrarr would gain plenty of new agents among the decimated nobility and its rising younger members.

Its some stuff I'd love to flesh out.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 18 Mar 2015 :  20:36:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Idea for today. What happened to all the Grodd goblins after the war.

I don't mean the ones still in the city, I mean the ones that took part in the war and routed from the field of battle.

Cormyr is quite unusual in that it is one of the few realms on Toril where the humans have a primary threat that is an evil humanoid.

The dalelands major threat is monsters from Cormanthor and humans from Sembia and the Moonsea.

The Moonsea region is not a nation and the independent cities do not have to secure their borders they just defend themselves.

Sembia's major threat is Cormyr, Dalelands, Zhentil Keep etc.

The Savage Frontier have orcs as the major threat but like the Moonsea region they are not a nation but independent cities. Even the Silver Marches is not a nation with strong well defined borders (there is a lot of independent territory inbetween cities).

Thay, Mulhorand, Unther, Amn, Calimshan, etc all place a really low value on humanoid life.

Cormyr is a nation with strong borders and a generally good alignment, its primary enemies up until this point are humans from Sembia.

So the goblins invade and start attacking.

Most people do not fight to kill. Only 1% of the population possess the ability to intend to strike to kill (I'm going off documentaries on the armed forces in uk a few years ago). Even assuming that many Cormyrians fail to empathise/anthropomorphise with the goblins and so view them as little better than animals, that still means quite a few goblins would survive combat because not everyone can kill animals either.

Furthermore most combat units break morale and route at only 10% casualties (many are less and your average goblin group would probably break at 1-2%). Trained professional armies can manage 30% casualties before breaking and retreating but they are the exception.

So assuming the best case scenario between 70% and 90% of the Grodd goblins would survive in some fashion (50% wounded the rest just ran away) so out of 10000 goblins that leaves about 7000, but being a pessimist and assuming the worst of people I imagine the murderous cormyreans slaughtering retreating goblins and skewering them in the back as they run away.

So what happened to the 5000 goblins. Did they all escape and travel over the mountains back to Grodd which is hidden in mountains in the stonelands through a largely unknown portal (goblins are not known for their ability to read maps either).

Did they all retreat into the kingsforest, vast swamp, and other inhospitable lands within cormyr. Will they return to plague Cormyr in later years. Did they join with Iron Throne bandit groups as that organisation smuggled them out of the area.

Were any of them captured? If so what did the crown do with them. Are there huge concentration camps filled with goblinoids that are worked to death in the mines by their stern human taskmasters. Are the goblins working the gemstone grotto that is secret to the Obaskyrs. DId vangerdahast secretly whisk away hundreds of them for magical experimentation.

Do the goblins become a hidden slave undercast of the nobles and royalty. Are they put to work rebuilding the damage they inflicted.

DId the vengeance fuelled corymreans execute thousands of goblins on the spot in retaliation for the war. Such a huge mass grave is bound to have some undead taint and consequences for later.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 19 Mar 2015 :  15:53:40  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just looking for what type of dragon Oraun may be and i found mention of an ancient tale about a sapphire dragon in the stormhorns

quote:
Among the dwarven tales I have come across is the story of a sapphire dragon deep below the surface of the Storm Horns. The tale is ancient, dating back many generations, but not so old as to be legendary.
The sapphire dragon was hunted for some time by dwarves who viewed it as a racial enemy. The dwarves were finally able to determine where its lair was, but were unable to ultimately defeat the dragon. Its treasure hoard was never discovered, and it is believed that it is either too well hidden or has been made inaccessible by normal means.



Could it be that the sapphire dragon is so old that salt crystals have started to accumulate on its hide giving it a white appearance.

Maybe when it was "defeated" (it doesnt say slain) perhaps it just fled (or its children did) and became vassals of Thauglor's realm later or became his enemy/contemporary.

The dwarves must have been part of or some remnant of Oghrann. I think there are a few dwarf delvings left in the Far Hills.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  09:59:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And today i've been looking at the Cormyrean Marshes from Elminster's Ecologies (not quite cormyr, but close enough).

So first is the Farsea Marshes and the Marsh of Tun. Both are filled with ruins and undead and are said to be home to twin civilisations that were cursed and sank into the earth.

Legends are as follows

quote:
The Drovers are a race of humans, apparently occupying the region after an ancient disaster shattered the region’s previous civilization.


quote:
the regions now occupied by the Tun and the Farsea were once the lands of two prosperous kingdoms.
Legend claims that the prince of one kingdom fell in love with the princess of the other, and stole her away in the night. This triggered a steadily-escalating war between the kingdoms, culminating in the magical destruction of both. In some tales, the kings were urged on in their mutual destruction by a mysterious female advisor, who is in the end revealed to be the goddess Talona.



quote:
The Marsh Drovers claim that a kingdom once occupied the marshes many thousands of years ago. It was destroyed to punish its rulers’ wickedness, and so that the Drovers themselves could then occupy the land.


quote:
A fallen civilisation that predated the elves rests in this ugly marsh. Its only remnants are ornate buildings made of glass as strong as steel. Those who have seen these structures seldom live long, however, for the swamp is thick with pestilence and plague.


quote:
The two marshes share another feature, for each is reputed to have been the home of a great forgotten civilization. Such a civilization would have to have existed before the elves themselves, for there is no record among them of anything other than swamp in the area. Yet, adventurers have described ruined buildings of ornate shapes made of glass strengthened to the resiliency of steel being here. Such declarations are usually followed by the quick sickness and death of the speaker, since these swamps are also the home of pestilence and plague.
Without any idea of the facts, bards have fitted in a story of two great city-states ruled by lovers who had a falling out, a disagreement that escalated into a magical war which sank both cities, poisoned the land, and bred all manner of disease. Each was supposedly advised by an old woman, who is revealed at the end of the tale to have been Talona.



quote:
Local legends say both marshes were once the seats of ancient civilizations, but even the elves have no record of either one. Nevertheless, there have been many reports of fantastic buildings and ruins located within the marshes.


quote:
The Tunlands were once part of the massive forest of Arcorar, in particular the area was known by the elves as the Gods' Theatre due the shape of the surrounding mountains. It was the site of one of the bloodiest battles of all the Crown wars - the Battle of the Gods' Theatre wherein over 70,000 elves were killed when the forces of Aryvandaar and Shantel Othreier were both attacked by a massive orc horde.
After the fall of Shanatar, the Tunlands (or at least the tunnels underneath it) were the location of the relatively short-lived dwarven realm of Oghrann.



And then there is the lich Nyrax of the Eight Thrones and the sword that killed him.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  11:53:58  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So we have a rought time frame for the twin civilisations to exist "many thousands of years ago", "before the elves (one would assume the elves arrival in Cormyr", and then just a vague "a long time ago".

We have reference to an ancient disaster that shattered the region's previous civilisation which then allowed the drovers to move in.

The tale involving marriage and wars and talona is stated several times as being a fabrication by bards.

Then there is Nyrax. Lord of the Eight Thrones. He wears black, he is a lich, he is afraid of a particular sword.



Just thinking off the top of my head.

The disaster that ended the previous civilisation could refer to either the destruction of Netheril, the fall of Thaeravel or the fall of Anauria.

Depending upon which legends you believe the civilisation predating the elves puts it anywhere before -400 DR (or -600 DR if you hold to the theory of two kingdoms of Orva - and that they were elven kingdoms).

The fact the kingdom isnt in the records of the elves doesnt necessarily mean it didnt exist at the same time (elves tend to be quite insular and there was a big mountain range in the way). Therefore the fall could be anytime between -3392 and -339 DR or even after.


What we do know is that from -393 to 268 DR the stonelands and goblin marches were part of the empire of Hlundadim. This is another possibility why little was document of this realm because it existed in the shadow of a large goblin/orc realm.



So one possible proposal is that the tale of twin kingdoms refers to Thaeravel and Netheril and the great disaster is the fall of Netheril. This gets corrupted over millennia like all stories into the present day legends.

What isnt recorded is that when Rasilith was conquered by Netheril, portions of Thaeravel survived in the Vale of Tun in two large settlements that eventually became twin capitals of a kingdom.

With the destruction of Anauria in 118 DR, the orcs and goblins of Hlundadim are dealt a major blow and the kingdom of Tunarath (made up name) begins to prosper with the influx of some refugees from Anauria (house nemrin and many noble estates were situated in or on the edges of lush countryside that would one day become the stonelands).

In 183 DR in Teshar, the Claws of Arlochar were shattered and its remnants exiled from that land, more than a few of their number moved to Tunarath and began infiltrating the kingdom as they had in Teshar.

The Claws of Arlochar and their supporters were primarily worshippers of the newly arisen gods Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. After several decades of manipulating their way into power the necromancers had become liches and seized the twin thrones of Tunarath.

They fashioned great items of power to ensure their dominion over the kingdom. Items that would become known as Seats of Bane were fashioned for the eight liches who called themselves the Lords of the Eight Thrones.

As with all evil tyrants, the eight liches soon fell out with one another and their magical battles resulted in the Vale of Tun flooding and the people of Tunarath rising up against their evil masters and using the blade lore of Anauria to fashion swords to combat the undead.

Ultimately the twin cities of Tunarath sank into the ancient tunnels of Oghrann and the menace was contained beneath the swamps that arose as a result.

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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  14:43:58  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not specifically arguing against linking the cities/kingdoms in the marshes with Thaeravel, Netheril, or Anauria, but this ignores the "many thousands of years ago" quote.

It is of course possible that their age has been magnified over generations of presumably oral tradition... every generation makes the culture's history a little longer. But what if it was actually many thousands of years ago?

I don't remember any references to the Netherese building things entirely of glass (Nimbral, though...) but I could have missed something. We know from THO (though I'm paraphrasing and might be misremembering) that 2e Netheril was very different than what Ed has in his Realms. Relevance: other references to Netheril, which are more likely to be based on Ed's vision, might not jive with the boxed set.

I'm just saying what if. What if the quotes we're glossing over are meant to be important clues? Many thousands of years ago. Before the elves... the elves were all over the western Realms long before -400. Shantel Othreir occupied the area now called the Green Fields, north of Amn. The High Moor was once Miyeritar. The Tun Plain is right-next-door, just over the hills. That goes back to -24000 DR.

Before the elves? That means creator races.

It also means, if Talona was involved, that she's one of the oldest deities in the Realms. Might be a different deity, defeated and/or replaced by Talona.

I'm not trying to prove anything; just questioning the assumption that it's recent.

Because if these cities/kingdoms fell a mere 1700-2000 years ago, why don't we know more about them? We have details on other kingdoms all over the Realms, and even in the Underdark, that are older than that. Pointedly, one of the quotes says the elves have no records of the cities... the marshes were already in place by the time the elves found them for the first time.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  15:26:45  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gah! The sword that destroyed Nyrax reminded me of a short story involving Elminster bringing a young man to Myth Drannor. The kid had recently inherited his father's sword, a legendary weapon said to destroy undead on touch. I think he had pledged himself to destroying the lich that killed his father, and Elminster brought him to her... only she turned out to be an ancestor of his, and instead of fighting her he learned more about his father, and about her. Something like that. But I can't remember where the story was and Google is laughing at me.

Point is it sounds like it could be the same sword.
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  15:34:14  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well thats why i cited it as only one possibility.

Given the myth origin stories of the Bedine and how they relate to actual events i tend to view the legends very sceptically ( the story of Nasr, Atar, and the other Bedine gods are all distorted versions of modern gods and can be plotted to events that happened).

Millennia ago could mean anything beyond 5 generations. The fact that the drovers are noted as being a barbarian people by Cormry is an indicator that they have little to no literacy and so all histories are oral and therefore very prone to corruption.

The Elminster's Ecologies book was written with the Heartlands (Cormyr, Sembia, etc) region in mind and so i took everything as relative to Cormyr as that made the most sense.

Any human civilisation alive in modern times would have no link with creator races and so the legend pointing to before the elves and millennia ago cannot have referred to the creator races because they would have had no knowledge of them ever having existed. Real world history only stretches back a few thousand years before becoming horribly muddled to the point of near uselessness, so the same should apply to FR history. A human barbarian people are not going to know about a group of lizard like humanoids that lived 30000 years ago. In fact the creator races and anything that ever came into contact with them all perished long before the current crop of humanoids came to the realms.

Again my suggestion was just one possibility, but i did discount the creator races for a number of reasons.

I dont doubt that their are ruins of the creator races in the area as well (ruins beneath ruins is common in FR and a good thing), probably beneath the human kingdom, and the swamp would allow them to be periodically unearthed as gas buildup and release pushes ruins up and down. The ruins made of glass could actually be a crashed enclave which in Ed's game many of them were small and made of force barriers (which might be made to look like glass).

The presence of a lich that spoke common and was in possession of a human sword that it feared was the clincher though. A sarrukh of Isstosseffifil is unlikely to speak a language the humans would understand, nor would it have much opportunity to learn the language, plus how would it be in possession of a human sword (noted as a broad sword) and why would a lich of the creator races be afraid of something a human could fashion, and finally after all these years it would probably have decayed to nothing or become a demi-lich (the sarrukh in Oreme remain in stasis for long periods to avoid this and using the same trick twice is a bit of a cheat).

The fact that the elves had no mention of this kingdom is not surprising, their documentation of human civilisations is not great because it is rarely long lasting and in this instance the kingdom would be very small (i doubt the elves noted Thaeravel either). The elves of Arcorar made no mention of Barze or Horreb or any events in Thar (or the land that would be Thar) despite it being on their northern border.

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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  15:41:39  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooh, and as for the Vast Swamp. There is talk of illithids, and grell, and beholders and a very powerful, unique being that the various creatures of the swamp venerate (or that it manipulates) that possesses vast psionic powers.

What would be created if a beholder was implanted with an illithid to great a great floating tentacled horror that the grell could confuse as being an imperator and that could cow both beholders and illithids as well.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  15:44:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

Gah! The sword that destroyed Nyrax reminded me of a short story involving Elminster bringing a young man to Myth Drannor. The kid had recently inherited his father's sword, a legendary weapon said to destroy undead on touch. I think he had pledged himself to destroying the lich that killed his father, and Elminster brought him to her... only she turned out to be an ancestor of his, and instead of fighting her he learned more about his father, and about her. Something like that. But I can't remember where the story was and Google is laughing at me.

Point is it sounds like it could be the same sword.



Could be but someone would have to take the sword back to the marsh of Tun and put it back in the swamp, and bring Nyrax back to life. The elminster's ecologies stuff was written in the present tense so the fight with Nyrax was told by the person that fought Nyrax and so was alive in the 1350/60's.


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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  15:45:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hope Jeremy doesnt mind me clogging up his thread with theories

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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  17:31:59  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

so the legend pointing to before the elves and millennia ago cannot have referred to the creator races because they would have had no knowledge of them ever having existed.


They don't have to know about the creator races. They just know about the ruins, and don't have an explanation as to who lived there or why. As to when, they only know that even the elves only know the area as marsh/swamp, so whatever the civilization was... it had to have risen and fallen before the elves came to know about it. The conclusion that (if everything in these quotes is true) it must refer to the creator races is just me talking, not them.


quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Real world history only stretches back a few thousand years before becoming horribly muddled to the point of near uselessness, so the same should apply to FR history.


Apples and oranges, because Toril has at least one intelligent record-keeping race that has inhabited the planet continuously for the last 25,000 years, while humans on Earth have only kept records for what, 5,000? And it's been spotty here; I don't think any one culture on Earth has continuous records for that entire time period. Plus, we're seeing Faerun's history from an "unreliable narrator" point of view... a Gods-eye-view, which lays out the elves' history despite the fact that elves wouldn't willingly share those records -- particularly the embarrassing bits about Aryvandaar and the Crown Wars. We can't get that perspective on Earth's history... we can't see records that nobody shares.


quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The ruins made of glass could actually be a crashed enclave which in Ed's game many of them were small and made of force barriers (which might be made to look like glass).


I don't have any major objections to this. I would even agree that it's unlikely the magic that sustained the structures would survive 30k years, particularly in a swamp. (Which supports the structures being more recent.)

I didn't originally picture the glass towers being a sarrukh structure anyway --I was thinking of the avian race-- but it's an interesting tangent that the sarrukh terraforming magic that undoubtedly influenced the weather and flora and fauna during their empires might generate a poisonous swamp as it warps over the millennia.


quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

The fact that the elves had no mention of this kingdom is not surprising, their documentation of human civilisations is not great because it is rarely long lasting and in this instance the kingdom would be very small.


Fair point. The bit about the elves recording the marshes already being there upon their arrival still sticks out to me, though. They would have been familiar with this region back when they set up their earliest empires on the Sword Coast.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 20 Mar 2015 17:35:15
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 20 Mar 2015 :  20:31:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I'm still fairly sure any exposure between elves and creator races is going to be fairly limited.

The sarrukh of Istosseffiffil died out following a calamitous war with the phaerimm in which the climate of their entire basin changed. The sarrukh of Okoth fled to the outer planes en masse. The sarrukh of Mershaullk were far away from elvish territory in Chult.

The batrachi perished following climate change in the fallout of the Tearfall.

The aearee were killed by the dragons or fled to other continents in their flying enclaves.

The elves didn't arrive until -27000, which was 3000 years after the end of the creator races empires (and presumably enough time for them to all die, travel to other planes, or degenerate into barbarism.

So elves are not going to have any record of events relating to creator race history.

Further to that, elves are not known for sharing their territory until the age of humanity when eaerlann and cormanthor allowed humans to live among them, and even then there were problems. I can't see elves opening up historical archives to human nations and allowing them to copy.

The bit about elven records not showing anything but marsh had to come from either Illiphar Nuelve in his advisory capacity to the Obaskyrs, or from Elminster who had dealings with Cormanthor. Even then it wouldn't include things dating back 30000 years long before Cormanthor even existed, as that kind of knowledge transfer when empires end would be astonishing (SHantel Othreier, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Arvandar, Miyeritar, RYstall Wood, and every other elf nation has a history of falling following very sudden catastrophies or invasions, not enough time to neatly pack up your library of 10000 years of history and take it with you).



I also doubt that a swamp could exist unchanged for 30000 years. It doesn't happen in the real world and that area was next to a lot of changes over the years (Anauroch's formation, the redirection of the Narrow Sea, the Tearfall, the destruction of the forest of Keltormir).




Finally I found this in the stonelands section of Elminster's ecologies.
quote:
The Goblin Marches and High Moors were once much wider and wetter than now. The Great Desert Anauroch’s southernmost limits were 50 to 150 miles farther north than now, making the local weather cooler and moister. The Farsea Marsh was a freshwater lake ringed by forests and well-watered fields. The soil was rich, moist, and deep.





I think that the note about elven records refers to Orva (the home of Iliphar Nuelve) which did have close connections to the fledgling Cormyr from 26 DR onwards. At that point in time I think the Tunlands were a bit marshy as the flood plains of the Tun valley were prone to overflowing which is what made them so moist and rich and suitable for farming.

Now I think this area once belonged to Thaeravel (Rasilith being just north of it) and its destruction meant the empire broke apart and the people descended into "barbarism" (according to the elves) and the humans lived in small farming villages along the river. So the elves ignore the humans because they are of no consequence and live in very small settlements, and the area floods frequently so it is noted as being a marshland.

Cue the collapse of Netheril and great migrations into the western heartlands. This influx of people results in kingdom creation in the area (it happened in the western heartlands as well, Ebenfar, Torsil, Indoria, etc) so sometime between -339 DR and 100 DR you have two cities arise at either end of the Tun Valley.

These kingdoms have to contest with the orcs and goblinoids of Hlundadim but they are small enough to be ignored by the orcs in favour of the tastier Anauria and Asram.

Anauria perishes 118 DR and the sword makers arrive and the kingdom reaches its peak.

183 DR and the Claws of Arlochar arrive and shortly after that the kingdom perishes in magical catastrophe. I reckon the catastrophe might be linked to the expansion of Anauroch which probably began drying out the Farsea Lake. So mages are invited in to stop it drying and they do a hash job of it that decades later results in the entire valley flooding.




But as I said before, there are almost definitely Sarrukh ruins in the area. The Naga Fountain and Terpenzi of Najara were in a Sarrukh ruins not too far away in the Badlands of the Western Heartlands. This was almost certainly an outlying part of the empire of istosseffifl, but no records could ever exist that identify it as such except for those kept by the sarrukh.




I think the creator race approach to ruins has been done to death over recent years and there is much to point to this being a human ruin.

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