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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 12:32:50
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Reboot, install something that isn't VVirii-dows™, reboot again.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 16:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm always curious about what changes folk make to the Time of Troubles.
Care to elaborate?
In a nutshell I had the Tablets of Fate being stolen by the same gods but all the major deities were behind the theft. They wanted to be out from under AO's control and decided that this was the only way they could do what they wanted. The result was a world where magic went haywire, the gods did fight but were not forced into avatar form by AO. The Avatars came later when the fabric of reality was altered and the barriers between planes like the Far Realm and Plane of Shadow became thin or torn.
The result was a rather nasty time where you had avatars fighting each other and having to deal with creatures bent on destroying Faerun. Only AO stopped it by destroying and then immediately reforging the Tablets of Fate creating a new dynamic for the gods. He basically tells them they are spoiled children and will treat them as such from now on. He dictates the pantheon into roles of stewards and limits their interaction on Toril. As well he reorders many of the gods into houses depending on what they are to oversee. So you have things like the House of Nature, House of Magic, House of Knowledge and so on. AO also makes it to where he and he alone can promote, demote, resurrect or kill a deity.
The darker deities still have to abide by this and are more than a little upset that they have lost so much power and even good deities are chaffing at the new order. However they have little choice in the matter and are adapting while finding ways around the new rules.
Most of the same gods and goddesses died in the conflict. The promotion of Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor does happen but Midnight had only a few moments as a Neutral Good diety before AO reawakened aspects of Mystra and Mystryl forcing her into a LN position. Cyric retains most of his post ToT powers as Bane was prevented from returning by AO. Kelemvor does take parts of death from Cyric (I play loose with the portfolio idea) leaving Cyric with undeath and darker aspects of the idea.
Basically, the idea was to do a few things 1) Prevent any idea of a spellplague from coming 2) Keep the dead from returning and letting Faerun adjust to the new paradigm and 3) move into a more Dark Fantasy genre than a heroic one. So far it has worked for us and even the couple of FR vets I have likes the changes. |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 05:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Dark
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm always curious about what changes folk make to the Time of Troubles.
Care to elaborate?
In a nutshell I had the Tablets of Fate being stolen by the same gods but all the major deities were behind the theft. They wanted to be out from under AO's control and decided that this was the only way they could do what they wanted. The result was a world where magic went haywire, the gods did fight but were not forced into avatar form by AO. The Avatars came later when the fabric of reality was altered and the barriers between planes like the Far Realm and Plane of Shadow became thin or torn.
The result was a rather nasty time where you had avatars fighting each other and having to deal with creatures bent on destroying Faerun. Only AO stopped it by destroying and then immediately reforging the Tablets of Fate creating a new dynamic for the gods. He basically tells them they are spoiled children and will treat them as such from now on. He dictates the pantheon into roles of stewards and limits their interaction on Toril. As well he reorders many of the gods into houses depending on what they are to oversee. So you have things like the House of Nature, House of Magic, House of Knowledge and so on. AO also makes it to where he and he alone can promote, demote, resurrect or kill a deity.
The darker deities still have to abide by this and are more than a little upset that they have lost so much power and even good deities are chaffing at the new order. However they have little choice in the matter and are adapting while finding ways around the new rules.
Most of the same gods and goddesses died in the conflict. The promotion of Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor does happen but Midnight had only a few moments as a Neutral Good diety before AO reawakened aspects of Mystra and Mystryl forcing her into a LN position. Cyric retains most of his post ToT powers as Bane was prevented from returning by AO. Kelemvor does take parts of death from Cyric (I play loose with the portfolio idea) leaving Cyric with undeath and darker aspects of the idea.
Basically, the idea was to do a few things 1) Prevent any idea of a spellplague from coming 2) Keep the dead from returning and letting Faerun adjust to the new paradigm and 3) move into a more Dark Fantasy genre than a heroic one. So far it has worked for us and even the couple of FR vets I have likes the changes.
I support this retcon. :) |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 07:36:12
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 10:49:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Dark
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'm always curious about what changes folk make to the Time of Troubles.
Care to elaborate?
In a nutshell I had the Tablets of Fate being stolen by the same gods but all the major deities were behind the theft. They wanted to be out from under AO's control and decided that this was the only way they could do what they wanted. The result was a world where magic went haywire, the gods did fight but were not forced into avatar form by AO. The Avatars came later when the fabric of reality was altered and the barriers between planes like the Far Realm and Plane of Shadow became thin or torn.
The result was a rather nasty time where you had avatars fighting each other and having to deal with creatures bent on destroying Faerun. Only AO stopped it by destroying and then immediately reforging the Tablets of Fate creating a new dynamic for the gods. He basically tells them they are spoiled children and will treat them as such from now on. He dictates the pantheon into roles of stewards and limits their interaction on Toril. As well he reorders many of the gods into houses depending on what they are to oversee. So you have things like the House of Nature, House of Magic, House of Knowledge and so on. AO also makes it to where he and he alone can promote, demote, resurrect or kill a deity.
The darker deities still have to abide by this and are more than a little upset that they have lost so much power and even good deities are chaffing at the new order. However they have little choice in the matter and are adapting while finding ways around the new rules.
Most of the same gods and goddesses died in the conflict. The promotion of Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor does happen but Midnight had only a few moments as a Neutral Good diety before AO reawakened aspects of Mystra and Mystryl forcing her into a LN position. Cyric retains most of his post ToT powers as Bane was prevented from returning by AO. Kelemvor does take parts of death from Cyric (I play loose with the portfolio idea) leaving Cyric with undeath and darker aspects of the idea.
Basically, the idea was to do a few things 1) Prevent any idea of a spellplague from coming 2) Keep the dead from returning and letting Faerun adjust to the new paradigm and 3) move into a more Dark Fantasy genre than a heroic one. So far it has worked for us and even the couple of FR vets I have likes the changes.
This is what should have happened in canon.
Ao's choice of letting the gods do as they please and allowing countless cataclysms to happen just to teach them a lesson doesn't really make sense. Then, with the Sundering, he brings the various deities back and proceeds to limit their meddling and to cut their conflicts, setting their portfolios/power in stone.
Seriously, the latter part is the only rational choice that he could have made at the end of the ToT. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jun 2015 10:51:00 |
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Mr Dark
Seeker
50 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 18:36:27
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Thanks for the kind words.
The only reason I did this was I felt I needed something written 'in universe' to explain why certain events and RSEs from happening and explain why player action has more importance than what the gods devise. One thing I have noticed is that there is more mystery to the gods now and, since even high level clerics aren't sure what their deities want, it creates some tension in the various churches.
One result of this was that the House of Nature has gained a fair amount of power as it was decreed that it would cover all the natural law of Toril. So gods like Umberlee, Talos, Auril and even Talona had to align with it even if they did not want to. The shift in power moved it from more of an agricultural house to one that covers things that many would not consider 'good'.
I have a cleric of Eldath in my group that is having to deal with the new dynamic and he is dealing with the changes in a way that fits his character. He has watched as several clerics has switched from their patrons to venerating the full on house, seen the Eldathian priesthood embrace more militant aspects and has to cope with the fact that many of his sect are leaving his beloved patron. He plays it well enough and will also learn that the order he is with is going to dissolve into becoming priests of the House of Nature and closing his order.
It has been fun watching him play this through and realize that things are not as cut and dried as he thought. That alone made the reset worthwhile. |
Canon stops where the table begins. |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 21:06:19
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Baptor, just save your self some heartache and go on ahead and role back to 1375DR and just game on from there.
You will feel alot better.
John
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Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe
Norway
410 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 06:41:21
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| I remember before I really understood how the seem to Realms work I played the gods of the setting as "silent", so the players didn't know if they existed or not, like in the real world - it required faith. Then I read about the Time of Troubles and I was like WHAAT? And then I began to wonder how the word "faith" can even exist in the setting, and so many more questions came out of this single thing, and I began to read more and understand the setting more. But hey, it worked without the gods being known to exist as well - spells were granted and all that. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 15:42:27
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In the novels, there is a canon Realms. But in gaming, there is no "right" or "true" single way to play the Realms.
Each and every Realms DM can adapt, modify, or completely re-write aspects of the Realms for their gaming use. My Realms never had a Time of Troubles, it has no "AO" or any overgod, and the gods have always been distant except for very rare omens, dream-sendings, "signs" and minor manifestations (e.g. a glowing temple altar, the appearance of a perfect rose, and the like). Having distant gods who would never manifest as avatars isn't canon, but it doesn't mean my Realms is any less the Realms than someone who likes having Selune show up as a sexpot bar wench or Mystra as a regular dinner guest.
There's also more than one type of faith. There's faith without proof, of course, but faith also means troth or trust. Given that the gods grant spells and send manifestations, faith in my Realms is centered on the belief that a worshiper is acting in accordance with their god's wishes - and occasionally, they're rewarded with a minor manifestation (as noted above) to verify they were right or wrong. Faith can also be the trust that your deity will be there to back you up in extremely dire circumstances (something Ed also does, though rarely), in various ways.
In my Realms, Toril is a regular planet similar to Earth, with no hint of a goofy Spelljammer type "crystal sphere" or phlogiston or any of that stuff at all. I use an extremely modified planar cosmology, and I've even changed quite a lot of the history to better suit my gaming tastes. It's not canon, but it's still the Realms - because the Realms is about a particular flavor and tone, a depth and richness of play, much of which I think has been seriously damaged by the 4E Realms, cosmology shifts, and metastory retcons, not to mention the time-jump. Too much goofy metastory spoils the soup, IMO.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 05 Jun 2015 15:48:02 |
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Baptor
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 16:47:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
In the novels, there is a canon Realms. But in gaming, there is no "right" or "true" single way to play the Realms.
Each and every Realms DM can adapt, modify, or completely re-write aspects of the Realms for their gaming use. My Realms never had a Time of Troubles, it has no "AO" or any overgod, and the gods have always been distant except for very rare omens, dream-sendings, "signs" and minor manifestations (e.g. a glowing temple altar, the appearance of a perfect rose, and the like). Having distant gods who would never manifest as avatars isn't canon, but it doesn't mean my Realms is any less the Realms than someone who likes having Selune show up as a sexpot bar wench or Mystra as a regular dinner guest.
There's also more than one type of faith. There's faith without proof, of course, but faith also means troth or trust. Given that the gods grant spells and send manifestations, faith in my Realms is centered on the belief that a worshiper is acting in accordance with their god's wishes - and occasionally, they're rewarded with a minor manifestation (as noted above) to verify they were right or wrong. Faith can also be the trust that your deity will be there to back you up in extremely dire circumstances (something Ed also does, though rarely), in various ways.
In my Realms, Toril is a regular planet similar to Earth, with no hint of a goofy Spelljammer type "crystal sphere" or phlogiston or any of that stuff at all. I use an extremely modified planar cosmology, and I've even changed quite a lot of the history to better suit my gaming tastes. It's not canon, but it's still the Realms - because the Realms is about a particular flavor and tone, a depth and richness of play, much of which I think has been seriously damaged by the 4E Realms, cosmology shifts, and metastory retcons, not to mention the time-jump. Too much goofy metastory spoils the soup, IMO.
This was one of the most thoughtful and well written posts on this subject. I especially like what you said about the Realms being a particular flavor and tone. Mazeltov. |
Jesus said, "I am the Ressurection and the Life. Anyone who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and those who live and believe in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 17:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
This was one of the most thoughtful and well written posts on this subject. I especially like what you said about the Realms being a particular flavor and tone. Mazeltov.
Thanks 
In gaming, I strongly believe each of us has to make the Realms (or any world setting) truly our own. I love seeing the various differences and alterations people have made to their own home Realms.
The canon Realms is fine for novels, but I've never seen anyone who actually runs a perfect canon Realms in their gaming. I suppose it's possible, but it's way, way too much work to keep up 100% with every novel, supplement, and tiny scattered note across a hundred-plus sources that WotC has formally noted as canon.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 19:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
This was one of the most thoughtful and well written posts on this subject. I especially like what you said about the Realms being a particular flavor and tone. Mazeltov.
Thanks
In gaming, I strongly believe each of us has to make the Realms (or any world setting) truly our own. I love seeing the various differences and alterations people have made to their own home Realms.
The canon Realms is fine for novels, but I've never seen anyone who actually runs a perfect canon Realms in their gaming. I suppose it's possible, but it's way, way too much work to keep up 100% with every novel, supplement, and tiny scattered note across a hundred-plus sources that WotC has formally noted as canon.
It's actually impossible to run a Canon game due to the very nature of your own player characters entering the realms. Since they are not canon the game cannot be Canon |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 19:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
This was one of the most thoughtful and well written posts on this subject. I especially like what you said about the Realms being a particular flavor and tone. Mazeltov.
Thanks
In gaming, I strongly believe each of us has to make the Realms (or any world setting) truly our own. I love seeing the various differences and alterations people have made to their own home Realms.
The canon Realms is fine for novels, but I've never seen anyone who actually runs a perfect canon Realms in their gaming. I suppose it's possible, but it's way, way too much work to keep up 100% with every novel, supplement, and tiny scattered note across a hundred-plus sources that WotC has formally noted as canon.
It's actually impossible to run a Canon game due to the very nature of your own player characters entering the realms. Since they are not canon the game cannot be Canon
Oh c'mon, that's just semantics. ''Canon game'' simply means that you are sticking as close as possible to ''canon''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 22:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
This was one of the most thoughtful and well written posts on this subject. I especially like what you said about the Realms being a particular flavor and tone. Mazeltov.
Thanks
In gaming, I strongly believe each of us has to make the Realms (or any world setting) truly our own. I love seeing the various differences and alterations people have made to their own home Realms.
The canon Realms is fine for novels, but I've never seen anyone who actually runs a perfect canon Realms in their gaming. I suppose it's possible, but it's way, way too much work to keep up 100% with every novel, supplement, and tiny scattered note across a hundred-plus sources that WotC has formally noted as canon.
It's actually impossible to run a Canon game due to the very nature of your own player characters entering the realms. Since they are not canon the game cannot be Canon
Oh c'mon, that's just semantics. ''Canon game'' simply means that you are sticking as close as possible to ''canon''.
Not really. Each non-published adventure that has NPCs, organizations, monsters, and PCs will ultimately change the Realms in some way that deviates from Canon. And it usually only gets more apparent the higher your level is. Now I believe that is the full intent of the setting and game but it also undermines any reason to adhere to Canon in the first place. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 00:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Baptor
This was one of the most thoughtful and well written posts on this subject. I especially like what you said about the Realms being a particular flavor and tone. Mazeltov.
Thanks
In gaming, I strongly believe each of us has to make the Realms (or any world setting) truly our own. I love seeing the various differences and alterations people have made to their own home Realms.
The canon Realms is fine for novels, but I've never seen anyone who actually runs a perfect canon Realms in their gaming. I suppose it's possible, but it's way, way too much work to keep up 100% with every novel, supplement, and tiny scattered note across a hundred-plus sources that WotC has formally noted as canon.
It's actually impossible to run a Canon game due to the very nature of your own player characters entering the realms. Since they are not canon the game cannot be Canon
Oh c'mon, that's just semantics. ''Canon game'' simply means that you are sticking as close as possible to ''canon''.
I'd say that's true for only so long... dependent almost entirely on just how much "impact" your characters have on canon-specific elements. Granted, PCs are supposed to have a minimalistic effect on most canon aspects for the most part, but...
Having your characters eventually kill of Manshoon or dethrone Lady Alustriel, for examples, would effectively make it harder [though not completely impossible] to define your campaign as being fully adherent to Realms canon. |
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To reboot or not reboot?
