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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:11:32
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Inspired by a thread at Enworld I was curious if any DM fudges their dice rolls during play.
I've done it before. For instance, a party of 1st level characters had engaged a semi-tweaked Manticore. A bit weaker version, tail spikes did 1d4, had half the hit points of a normal beastie.
Right up until combat started and the dwarf smashed a crit with his maul and the gnome with his buzzsaw crossbow launcher thing almost one shot the "boss" in the first salvo.
So to have combat last a round or two more I just doubled its hit points on the spot, which resulted in a more memorable encounter. That and I wasn't entirely sure how this modified manticore would fare to begin with and it was the first adventure we were on to boot. ;)
Anyways, like the example above, I'm wondering if anyone else changes things on the fly sometimes?
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:19:47
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| Yes, I have. I've even changed the mobs stats and abilities in the middle of a fight. I've done it to help players and hurt them. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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TaeghenAmalith
Acolyte
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 18:24:04
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| It seem to me perfectly in agreement with the aim of a RPG to change the math in the direction of the amusement. Don't feel guilty for that if you are doing it for let your players enjoy more. Only one thing you have to keep in mind: DON'T TELL THEM IT. NEVER. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 19:02:46
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I used to fudge all the time, mostly in play by post, when I started DMing I thought the 'proper' way to play involved fudging dice rolls to ensure players had fun. I had enemies die early, crits turn into misses, and ACs change to let the PCs hit more. On the other side I would have 'boss' monsters survive when they shouldn't have, make saves they shouldn't, and so on. After I DMed for awhile I learned that this isn't the 'proper' way to do it, that there indeed is no proper way to DM, and stopped fudging. For me that is much more fun.
It shifts me from DM as storyteller towards a more neutral arbiter role, particularly when I run sandbox style games which is my preferred style. I roll my dice openly now and it's as exciting for me as it is for the players when there is a close combat they narrowly survive. Further, they know that it was their luck and skill that wins the day, not DM charity.
I had a battle recently where the party had all their members but one knocked out, and the last member was desperately trying to keep them alive and restore the heavy hitter to consciousness to defeat the last enemy before it crushed them. We were all rolling openly and, in the end, the players luck and strategy won the day, and they managed to survive the battle and overthrow the foe. To me, that combat was better than every single one of the combats where I fudged because the victory was entirely theirs and I didn't pull punches, change rolls, or otherwise manipulate events. They all had a great time too and were eagerly watching my rolls and their own rolls to see what would happen. To me the uncertainty, the risk of failure, and the chance of unexpected success is why I bother playing and RPG to begin with. Taking that away by choosing what is going to happen is not fun for me, and once I stopped fudging rolls I've been happier as a DM. |
Edited by - idilippy on 27 Jan 2015 19:08:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 21:13:49
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My GM apparently doesn't believe in fudging the dice... We had an absolutely brutal combat in our last session -- two baddies that could shrug off magical attacks, and a nastybad throwing spells while cloaked with greater invisibility. Because of the terrain and some other factors, the GM was giving us a 50% miss chance on any attacks. And our paladin missed for 4 consecutive rounds -- and two of those attacks would have been critical hits. The player was getting noticeably frustrated...
And half the party would have been dead if it hadn't been for a house rule allowing an extra round to try to save a dead character. My gun mage was one of those dead characters. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 21:22:20
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I roll all the dice in open view of the players, there is no hiding or fudging in my game.
At the critical moments in the game i.e. when the wizard has chucked his last fireball the the enemy to finish it/him/her off with the rest of the party unconsious/badly wounded etc I do tell them what the bad guy needs to roll to save and let the dice fall.
I find that open rolling of dice adds more 'honesty' (not quite the right word) to the game and that the players accept both the good and the bad from this. They realise that they need to work and play at the game and not rely on me saying 'of course you find the secret door to get out of the dungeon of death before the 29 vampire lords smash the door down and eat you / the ancient red wrym dragon misses of all his attacks this round on your fighter (with only 5 hp left), how lucky you are and its your turn to finish the dragon off...... (I have a DM who does this all the time)
DM fiat and hand waving are important in the game and I do plenty of that, but I still believe games are better with more tension and the players more into it when they are watching the dice roll in front of them and they are shouting for it to roll in their favour, when that happens I KNOW they are really into their characters and the game.
Just my thoughts
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 22:24:08
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
I used to fudge all the time, mostly in play by post, when I started DMing I thought the 'proper' way to play involved fudging dice rolls to ensure players had fun. I had enemies die early, crits turn into misses, and ACs change to let the PCs hit more. On the other side I would have 'boss' monsters survive when they shouldn't have, make saves they shouldn't, and so on. After I DMed for awhile I learned that this isn't the 'proper' way to do it, that there indeed is no proper way to DM, and stopped fudging. For me that is much more fun.
It shifts me from DM as storyteller towards a more neutral arbiter role, particularly when I run sandbox style games which is my preferred style. I roll my dice openly now and it's as exciting for me as it is for the players when there is a close combat they narrowly survive. Further, they know that it was their luck and skill that wins the day, not DM charity.
I had a battle recently where the party had all their members but one knocked out, and the last member was desperately trying to keep them alive and restore the heavy hitter to consciousness to defeat the last enemy before it crushed them. We were all rolling openly and, in the end, the players luck and strategy won the day, and they managed to survive the battle and overthrow the foe. To me, that combat was better than every single one of the combats where I fudged because the victory was entirely theirs and I didn't pull punches, change rolls, or otherwise manipulate events. They all had a great time too and were eagerly watching my rolls and their own rolls to see what would happen. To me the uncertainty, the risk of failure, and the chance of unexpected success is why I bother playing and RPG to begin with. Taking that away by choosing what is going to happen is not fun for me, and once I stopped fudging rolls I've been happier as a DM.
I was going to try and say this and couldn't have said it better.
I will add a few things. I'm a stickler for not fudging anything with random encounters.
It's imperative that the world feel real, and the reality is, there are things out there that can kill you.
THis is why I have the PLAYERS roll for random encounters. I look at the table. Come across a dragon? Oh well better figure out how to hide, bargain with it or distract it until you can get away.
Many, many things. Part of this is teaching the players that this isn't a video game. There aren't "leveled" areas. You need to know when you CAN'T win a fight, because reality is you won't win them all. No matter how heroic you are.
It also gives meaning to PC progression. Congrats you're level 8 now, you probably don't have to worry about a band of orcs anymore...unless there are too many.........
Congrats you're 20th level, you no longer have to worry about roaming troll hunting parties.
However....I will add one thing. Some combats (ok well most) are story dependent. Meaning. that if the story were to end in that combat because someone did something stupid, and all our hard work on our PC's background, fleshing out, really deep NPCs, the hard work on the story etc if that results in a dissapointment for the players because of bad rolls, then yes I will fudge...to keep the story, the PCs, and therefore the joy alive.
But if the players do something stupid, that they know is stupid and do it anyway then I have no problem letting them die.
Choices have consequences.......
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Edited by - Cards77 on 27 Jan 2015 22:31:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 22:40:25
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While I don't disagree with what some are saying, I'll comment that sometimes players don't make any mistakes, and they do everything right -- but the Dice Gods don't care.
Like the combat I mentioned -- the paladin was doing everything right, but when it came to that 50% miss chance, the dice were against him. And I think any of us would be frustrated after two critical hits became misses because of a coinflip.
So while I can get wanting to preserve neutrality or a realistic feel, I think that sometimes fudging is indeed a good thing. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jan 2015 22:41:51 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 22:43:07
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Like several here, I fudged die rolls a lot in the beginning. I do that less now, but I still fudge it when it will derail my own campaign. Usually, that doesn't happen. I've gotten adept enough at thinking on my feet, I can usually turn a "botched" encounter into a "planned for that all along" plot point. But every now and again I just tweak the numbers.
Most of the time, though, I use "success with a price." PC need just one higher to hit the target? He hits, but his sword gets stuck and he'll spend an action to remove it, or he hits, but his damage is halved, something like that. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 22:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I don't disagree with what some are saying, I'll comment that sometimes players don't make any mistakes, and they do everything right -- but the Dice Gods don't care.
Like the combat I mentioned -- the paladin was doing everything right, but when it came to that 50% miss chance, the dice were against him. And I think any of us would be frustrated after two critical hits became misses because of a coinflip.
So while I can get wanting to preserve neutrality or a realistic feel, I think that sometimes fudging is indeed a good thing.
Not being there, that sounds more like a DM/rules issue than a DM fudging issue.
Encounters still need to have SOME thought put into them. I mean my players WILL come up on things that cannot beat, but there will always be some way out...IF they can think of it, or engineer it.
Otherwise that's just plain unfair to the players. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 28 Jan 2015 01:01:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2015 : 23:06:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I don't disagree with what some are saying, I'll comment that sometimes players don't make any mistakes, and they do everything right -- but the Dice Gods don't care.
Like the combat I mentioned -- the paladin was doing everything right, but when it came to that 50% miss chance, the dice were against him. And I think any of us would be frustrated after two critical hits became misses because of a coinflip.
So while I can get wanting to preserve neutrality or a realistic feel, I think that sometimes fudging is indeed a good thing.
Not being there, that sounds more like a DM/rules issue than a DM fudging issue.
Encounters still need to have SOME thought put into them. I mean my players WILL come up on things that cannot beat, but there will always be some way our...IF they can think of it, or engineer it.
Otherwise that's just plain unfair to the players.
It wasn't a DM or rules issue -- just a series of bad dice rolls. While any individual roll had a chance of 50% to hit, the chance of four consecutive misses was only 6.25%.
Had any one of those four rolls succeeded, instead of failing, the combat would have gone differently, and there would have been at least one less "mostly dead" character (my own!). |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2015 : 00:59:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cards77
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While I don't disagree with what some are saying, I'll comment that sometimes players don't make any mistakes, and they do everything right -- but the Dice Gods don't care.
Like the combat I mentioned -- the paladin was doing everything right, but when it came to that 50% miss chance, the dice were against him. And I think any of us would be frustrated after two critical hits became misses because of a coinflip.
So while I can get wanting to preserve neutrality or a realistic feel, I think that sometimes fudging is indeed a good thing.
Not being there, that sounds more like a DM/rules issue than a DM fudging issue.
Encounters still need to have SOME thought put into them. I mean my players WILL come up on things that cannot beat, but there will always be some way our...IF they can think of it, or engineer it.
Otherwise that's just plain unfair to the players.
It wasn't a DM or rules issue -- just a series of bad dice rolls. While any individual roll had a chance of 50% to hit, the chance of four consecutive misses was only 6.25%.
Had any one of those four rolls succeeded, instead of failing, the combat would have gone differently, and there would have been at least one less "mostly dead" character (my own!).
Let me rephrase that: There is a fine line between a tuned encounter that stretches the PCs resources, and making an encounter too difficult. What I'm trying to say that if your DM set you up with an encounter where you're a few bad rolls away from death or a total party kill...that's DM issue.
I guess I would say that...them's the breaks. Near defeats happen, it's part of the game and thats why it's a game and not a story.
Streaks of bad luck are real, as are streaks of good rolls.
Personally, I'd rather my character die, than have the GM fudge it or hand wave it. I'd take that death and make something out of it RP driven. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 28 Jan 2015 01:05:58 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2015 : 17:15:11
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| Let me put it this way. While I don't fudge the dice as a baseline, I have no objections whatsoever to changing dice results and other stuff (that has as yet not been set in stone), if I believe that it will provide for a better experience for the players. The ultimate goal of the game is for people to have fun, and on occasion that does require a bit of tweaking of the planned stats etc. But of course the GM should NEVER screw the players, and one should never change stuff that has already been determined ingame by previous events (i.e. a monster shouldn't suddenly change AC during a fight so that the players will hit it on a 12+ roll, if it's already been determined that they didn't hit it on a 15 earlier in the fight.) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2015 : 20:22:51
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I've done it before, though as time goes by I have resorted to fudging less often.
If it's a new or mostly new group, I will fudge a roll to keep things going, si I suppose I have learned that this is a tool to be used rarely and carefully. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2015 : 10:47:52
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| I'm with Jeremy. When a game is at its beginning, I resort more to fudging. But even better is, in any game, to avoid as much as you can all the unnecessary dice rolling. But there must be some risk for the PCs in any game, and they cannot think they are - or effectively be - invincible, even if you have to change campaign plans because of the unexpected demise of a character. And what to do of players who lose their long-time, beloved characters? This is something I've discussed more than once with my players - what if this or that character dies? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2015 : 14:27:36
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| I'll never tell. :D |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2015 : 16:29:10
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| Just as a practical matter, I would think that a little DM fudging of things would be allowed as a reflection of the fact that no intel is perfect. Your PCs might think that they have researched everything and prepared themselves to the Nth degree, but stuff happens. Part of the game should be how they react on their feet to surprises. Yeah, a lot of the surprise is due to the roll of the die. So what if some of the surprises have other origins? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2015 : 01:39:31
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I try to stay as true to my vision of the world as possible, while at the same time respecting the hard work my players put into creating and playing VERY deep and complex characters that have taken on a life of their own.
So my vision of "the world" that is the Realms includes danger.....LOTS of danger. People can and do die, every day from even mundane things like storms and wildlife, to say nothing of huge amounts of monsters.
Adventurers are special individuals in no small part because they are WILLING to face mortal danger on a nearly daily basis, when they could easily stay at home and make a great living doing some mundane job.
Whatever your motivation for adventuring your character is, it doesn't change the ever present danger.
There are many many things in the world that can and will gladly kill you, and likely eat your remains. You will encounter things that are stronger than you. This is something my players are told from day one.
But I also tell my players, if they can think it, I will make it possible. If they want to do something very difficult it may be a 1% chance or less. But if they have a good idea for getting themselves out of a bad situation, I'm not going to deny them.
I WILL reward your innovative thinking with your survival, even if you can't win the combat. But fate is a cruel mistress, do something very stupid, and you'll likely pay the ultimate price. Or...you could be doing nothing at all and minding your own business and be faced with a deadly situation....just like the real world.
Ah but your tools for getting yourself and your mates out of such a situation are SO much better, and more fun in the Realms eh? In that lies the joy. Your decisions and actions MUST have consequences for your decisions to feel meaningful, thereby causing the world to feel more real and lived in. Also, knowing that some things are simply beyond your ability to control gives the feeling of a persistent world that feels much larger, and more real. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2015 : 21:44:18
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| Fudging the dice rolls can be fun and make things interesting if used properly, but I wouldn't go overboard with it. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Fudging the Dice Rolls
