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Knotty Knut
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 07:48:24
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I love it when authors and DMs stick to the classic monsters in their Forgotten Realms based works and games.
I mean we all know what gnolls are like, for example.
-so, when an adventuring party stumbles upon a gnoll camp in the woods, we instantly know what the enemy is like, and what the camp is like (smelly, and you better watch your step, as Gnolls do not bother to use the lavatory!)
And so we can instantly relate to the situation, without any further explanation from author or DM. And this keeps the story flowing.
Same with boss monsters:
-If we are told that the adventures turn a corner and come face to face with a beholder, we are instantly at home with the situation.
-We all know beholders and what they can do, so we are grinning from ear to ear and thinking that the crap is definitely going to hit the fan!!!
Now imagine the author decided to invent a new boss monster for the same scene. It would go like this:
'The band rushed round the bend and found themselves face to face with the Demon Bull Thut, the Guardian of the Seventh Netherworld of Azkee-Zadenu!!!'
In this case, the author would need to stop the story and spend pages and pages explaining who the Demon Bull Thut is, what the Seventh Netherworld is and why the Bull is guarding it for Azkee-Zadenu. And the the author would have to come up with a good reason as to why the Demon Bull is now haunting the sewers of Sembia. I mean did it take wrong portal at Myth Drannor and end up in the cellar of a sembian tavern or what?
As you see, a new boss monster would totally break the flow of the climax, and bring the story to a screeching halt. Not good.
So, stick to classic monsters. We all know them an love them. So they do not need introduction!
And if you really have to invent new monsters, why not invent a totally new realm for them. Like one that is inhabited by Trollocks, and things that look just like ringwraiths and dress just like ringwraits, but are definitely not ringwraiths.
-no really! I've never even read the LotR books, so how do not even know what this, whatchacalled, ring-ghost, looks like. Honest!
And with that light note, I end my rant.
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 07:57:25
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Counter-point:
If all the monsters you encounter are well-known, doesn't it make the game/story a bit humdrum & samey?
On the other hand, if the party finds itself facing a totally unknown creature, it adds more tension, fear and mystery to the situation, IMHO.
"What the hell is that?"
If it's an unknown creature, then its capabilities, weaknesses, attacks etc will be a mystery.
Also: it would be more realistic if players don't know about some/most of the creatures inhabiting their world. Every time you see a bird/animal/insect, do you always know what it is, what it eats, whether it's a threat to you or not? |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 14:59:49
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Another counterpoint: even the classics are new to new players. Somebody's younger sibling (or parent, or friend, or whoever) joining the game for the first time won't have the full creepy context of illithids or all the story background of dracoliches.
I agree with your points about the comfort of familiarity and the drawbacks of springing completely new monsters on them, but even when using a classic monster (maybe especially then) I try to add something to make it challenging for the players who think they know what to expect. That beholder has a completely different assortment of powers. This seemingly typical gang of goblins is actually a magically armed elven strike force dominated and sent by a nearby wizard to destroy you for meddling in his affairs. This lammasu you're asking for advice is actually CE, hungry, and advanced to double the normal hit dice.
Not always, of course, because deceiving the players continuously has its own risks. But some time, that doe you're stalking for dinner is Lurue, and she has the perfect mission for you to prove the sincerity of your apology for shooting arrows at her.
This evens the playing field a bit for new players, and those who know me well enough to reject the assumption that things are only what they appear to be. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 13 Jan 2015 15:03:46 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 17:44:40
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It's very easy to make the "classic" monsters very flavorful. Just look what has been done with Stone Giants (they have a highly developed culture, the create art in form of carved rock, etc). The various orc tribes have been highly detailed and each have a distinct flavor (some are rabid Grummush, some are orc/ogre hybrids, some live in the underdark, some don't). There is TONS of room for making the classics feel new just based on the known existing lore of each race like hobgoblin's pretence toward highly disciplined warriors, orc the opposite, stone giants, frost giants and even ettin culture, etc.
There are SO many monsters already and the lore is SO deep, any author or DM should have more than enough to work with. |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 18:11:46
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I prefer getting a "what the hell is this?" reaction when my players run into a monster. I do tailor the game's narrative to help ease the newbies into these situations. Like they'll be investigating some strange activity relating to said monster. Maybe a cult that worships the monster, or people being mind controlled by the monster's parasites or something like that. As a player, comfort and familiarity tend to put me to sleep. With that perspective, I like to keep things interesting and strange for my group when I'm DMing.
For example, creatures like the Primordials. I say that the stranger things encountered in Faerun spring from the Primordials' immune system. Storms of elemental energy created by the elder dragons gave life to the slaughtered Primordials' macrophages, microphages, interferons and other immune response cells. The chaotic nature of the elemental energy, combined with the cells' hosts, give these creatures their bizarre appearance.
Little touches like that on the familiar source material help add some extra flavor to the game. It's whatever floats your boat, OP.  |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
Edited by - Entromancer on 13 Jan 2015 18:18:14 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 19:47:11
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| I like new and old monsters. But, you have to have new ones (or new twists on old) in order to be inventive and keep things fresh. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 20:51:35
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I like new monsters, with a few caveats...
Mainly, I'm tired of the endless flood of dragons and things related to dragons, and of the 8,000,001 different flavors of undead. With all of the variant dragons, there is a huge amount of overlap, and with all the undead, it's almost a bigger question if anyone stays dead in a D&D world.
Obviously I don't object to the more commonly encountered versions of each -- vampires, zombies, red dragons, etc...
But every edition of the game, they eventually use the entire spectrum of metals and colors for dragons and keep right on going in to stones, gems, celestial objects, planes, terrain types, weather phenomenon, One Direction members, types of pudding, emotions, Doctors Who, etc. I'm surprised we've not had plaid and pinstripe dragons.
And we get all the conventional undead, then progress to merely unlikely forms of undeath, and eventually get to very odd or even nonsensical origins for undead. There is likely some form of undead created when a happy, wealthy person dies peacefully of old age.
Actually, though, what I would most like to see is monster entries like the ones we had in 2E. For one brief moment, we had complete descriptions of monsters, with more than just a vague description and how it fought. We had organization and family units, descriptions of lairs, uses for body parts when they were dead.... And then all of the role-playing potential was scrubbed away, leaving us with monsters that were little more than the obligatory three adjectives and a pile of dice. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 20:55:11
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| I'm with you, Wooly. Brian and I are exploring picking a non-standard monster/adversarial race, and doing an entire sourcebook on them. It would include lore, history, and other content. It would be a fresh take on a common standard (there's so many "Dragon" books out there, for example). |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 22:17:23
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Speaking as someone who loves monsters and seeing creative monster designs, most of the stock D&D monsters feel kind of bland to me. There's nothing wrong with their concepts, I just find myself preferring a lot of the monsters described in supplement materials because I think they're often more unique. That's probably why abberations might be my favorite monster type. I love all the weirdness they bring.
It depends on the kind of story you're writing or game you're playing, but I don't think introducing a unique monster need necessarily to bring down the pace of the story. If you're exploring a dungeon and run across a monster you don't recognize, then all the characters/players need to know about it is that it's in the way.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
and with all the undead, it's almost a bigger question if anyone stays dead in a D&D world.
Also, I think that when you introduce a new undead creature, you need to explain how a person becomes that particular kind of undead. The core undead all explain the circumstances that lead to someone turning into that kind of undead, but not all supplement monsters bother with an explanation. Of course, certain types of undead are created that way, and in Dungeons and Dragons being undead means that you display certain kind of traits, not necessarily that the creature in question was ever actually alive. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 22:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I'm with you, Wooly. Brian and I are exploring picking a non-standard monster/adversarial race, and doing an entire sourcebook on them. It would include lore, history, and other content. It would be a fresh take on a common standard (there's so many "Dragon" books out there, for example).
My vote would be for griffons. Always loved them, to the point of making miniature ones for one of my Hooks.
(Who wouldn't want a griffon that was only the size of a house cat?)  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Jan 2015 22:55:45 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 23:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage
Speaking as someone who loves monsters and seeing creative monster designs, most of the stock D&D monsters feel kind of bland to me.
In my opinion, part of why most D&D monsters feel bland is because of the utter lack of a description -- as I said earlier, most D&D monster descriptions are "little more than the obligatory three adjectives and a pile of dice."
The 2E monster books, by dedicating a page or more to each critter, added so much more depth to them, and I think this enabled them to avoid that blandness.
The Monsternomicon books for the 3.x version of the Iron Kingdoms Roleplaying Game were the best monster books we've had since 2E, and it is, in large part, because they followed that 2E formula of giving actual write-ups to the monsters. They added two more nice touches, as well. One was that the monster write-ups were all written from the perspective of a character in the Iron Kingdoms, Professor Victor Pendrake -- kind of a zoological Indiana Jones. The other was not just the usual size reference, but an actual graphic of the monster's silhouette, next to the silhouette of a human male -- this gives a perspective that "Size: Tiny" never could. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 23:25:09
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Alas, on the other extreme we have monsters which are given far too much development.
Drow once had only a page or two in the monster books. Now, it seems theyve infested the Realms and more has been written about them than all other races combined.
Orcs have been humanized. They used to be ugly, brutish, cruel beasts which just happened to look something like mean people with mean weapons, they were marauding terrors, interested only in sadistic dominance and taking whatever they wanted from weaklings. Now they have other interests and capacities, theyre educated, they like diplomacy and trade and argriculture and fine arts. I have said it before - stop humanizing all the monsters or one day there wont be anything left to kill other than people.
I dont even wanna talk about tieflings and vampires.
Edit -
But, if monster-depth is unavoidable, inevitable, then please do things in the old Elminsters Ecologies style. Maybe tell us more about gelatinous cubes, eh? Give those poor little kobolds some love. And, above all else, do not stamp some post-3E wreckage all over the Gith races, leave em alone, theyre already perfect. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Jan 2015 23:29:53 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2015 : 23:45:32
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I would comment on the humanization of orcs, but Lurue knows that I don't want to get into that debate again. It's been an ugly one.
I will point out, though, that elves and dwarves have also had entire books written about them, and yet have monster entries. I'll not disagree that we've had a metric buttload written about drow, but most of it has been additional material, stuff beyond the monster entries. Dragons have had a similar amount of coverage.
But at least for myself, I'm just sticking with monster books, for this particular topic. It's a more focused topic, not nearly as broad in scope as total coverage. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 01:09:16
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| I've read supplements such as Liber Mortis and Lords of Madness, but I don't believe I've read any books that really tried to develop the society and mindset of creatures such as orcs or gnolls, which might be why I don't find that interesting. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 06:08:44
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I'm a firm believer that 'standard monsters' can be turned as interesting as any new one - and as surprising. For instance, I would almost never call out a creature by it's name on the first encounter as was done in the first post example.
Describe it. Really, really describe it, in all it's terrific glory. Let the player struggle to put a name to it. Plus, it's far more intimidating talking about that 7 ft tall, 400lb heavy doglike humanoid about to decapitate you with a terrifically big greataxe than about "a gnoll".
You don't need to spoil all the details instantly, either, especially when battle starts instantly - the party does not always have time to ogle, and things happen fast. A wyvern might be mistaken for a dragon for a moment, or vice versa, for example.
So, while I'd agree that classic monsters are cool, I dare say they need the same introduction upon their first encounter. I'm not a fan of too much OOC background exposition. I don't need to know that this is a griffon if the characters in a story, or my PC in P&P does not. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 13:30:31
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I don't mind giving the orcs a culture of their own...but it should still come across to humans as being something brutal and cruel rather than noble. Description is a neat trick, too. I've described gnolls as "a thing with an ape's gait, covered in matted fur with a snout of jagged fangs..." which sparks their imagination a bit more than "a gnoll attacks the party."
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"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6652 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 21:28:52
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I think it's a terrible travesty that there was never a sourcebook in either 2E or 3E called "Hordes of the Realms" or some such providing information and realmslore on the kobolds, goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, orcs, bugbears and ogres. Twenty pages on each, a general section on how to incorporate humanoids in a game (i.e. fighting a horde, hobgoblin subterfuge, the machinations of their deities, etc), new magic and some adventure ideas. Would have seen constant use by DMs for years - even if they didn't game in the Realms.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 15 Jan 2015 21:30:39 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2015 : 22:05:33
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I think it's a terrible travesty that there was never a sourcebook in either 2E or 3E called "Hordes of the Realms" or some such providing information and realmslore on the kobolds, goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, orcs, bugbears and ogres. Twenty pages on each, a general section on how to incorporate humanoids in a game (i.e. fighting a horde, hobgoblin subterfuge, the machinations of their deities, etc), new magic and some adventure ideas. Would have seen constant use by DMs for years - even if they didn't game in the Realms.
-- George Krashos
That would have been an excellent resource!
The Paizo folks have done some nifty things with some of the humanoid races... In particular, they've made me like goblins, whom I had previously overlooked, and I love their spin on derro. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Jan 2015 22:09:05 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 01:00:48
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This thread hits close to my secret love of D&D: DUNGEON ECOLOGY
Yes tell me more about gelatinous cubes, otyughs, EVERYTHING. I get more questions from my players about HOW many monsters came to be, how they persist in the Realms (mate), what they eat, etc. I get MORE of those questions than ANY OTHER question when I DM in the Realms.
MORE ecology about any and all monsters is what I want, especially the unloved ones like oozes, puddings, abberations, etc.
One thing I AM REALLY sick of: putting "Fiendish" and "Celestial" in front of everything to fill up monster books. How does some random animal become "fiendish" or "celestial"? Last time I checked animals didn't exactly go about walking the planes, nor are most forests just rife with random tears in reality allowing these influences to seep in etc. |
Edited by - Cards77 on 16 Jan 2015 01:08:03 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2015 : 01:24:06
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And if there's space, I'd go so far as to add in prices for pelts, hides, bones, eggs etc. for what they are worth to alchemists and general selling and what spells/items they are useful in creating.
The fighting a horde would so have to involve one of those great orc horde attacks on Citadel Adbar. Or better yet Tethyamar!
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2015 : 00:32:53
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| Ah, monstrous body parts and trophies are interesting, to be sure. But they seem to encourage PCs becoming hardy poachers and taxidermists who butcher every valuable creature they can find for sale to the nearest wizard/alchemist/armourer/etc. I've seen a PC barbarian who kept mounting battle trophies (some drow ears, beholder eyestalks, a vampire fang, his own severed swordhand, etc) all over his smelly old hide armour - quite fearsome and gruesome and totemic and thematically cool stuff which sometimes evolved into some minor storyline stuff and roleplaying challenges. But I've seen other PCs haul around extradimensional wagonloads of neatly categorized and preserved dragon bits, giant bits, undead bits, etc ... they end up having a rather unhealthy obsession with harvesting bodily parts and selling them on the local alchemical black market ... and that seems to take their focus away from the "heroic" things they should really be doing. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2015 : 00:56:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Knotty Knut
Now imagine the author decided to invent a new boss monster for the same scene. It would go like this:
'The band rushed round the bend and found themselves face to face with the Demon Bull Thut, the Guardian of the Seventh Netherworld of Azkee-Zadenu!!!'
In this case, the author would need to stop the story and spend pages and pages explaining who the Demon Bull Thut is, what the Seventh Netherworld is and why the Bull is guarding it for Azkee-Zadenu. And the the author would have to come up with a good reason as to why the Demon Bull is now haunting the sewers of Sembia. I mean did it take wrong portal at Myth Drannor and end up in the cellar of a sembian tavern or what?
To me that sounds like a pretty terrible author OR at the very least a poor reason to use a new monster. If authors do indeed use new monsters they need to provide at least context to the monster. Something thrown in just for the sake of being weird can be achieved IF they keep it simple. Instead of actually saying Demon Bull Thut etc... you just describe the monster in it's terrible glory. Then, at a later date the reader is then clued into what they were up against, why they were up against it, and now why it's important to the story.
quote:
Originally posted by Knotty Knut
As you see, a new boss monster would totally break the flow of the climax, and bring the story to a screeching halt. Not good.
As would ANY thing that didn't also have context within the story.
quote:
Originally posted by Knotty Knut
So, stick to classic monsters. We all know them an love them. So they do not need introduction!
And if you really have to invent new monsters, why not invent a totally new realm for them. Like one that is inhabited by Trollocks, and things that look just like ringwraiths and dress just like ringwraits, but are definitely not ringwraiths.
-no really! I've never even read the LotR books, so how do not even know what this, whatchacalled, ring-ghost, looks like. Honest!
And with that light note, I end my rant.
The problem is it gets boring. Fighting Dragons, Beholders, Liches, Vampires (and other classic undead), Trolls, Gnolls, Goblins, Orcs, Kobolds, and dire animals gets boring really quick. Variations of these creatures or stranger ones can liven up a story or make the threat seem more vivid. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2015 : 05:27:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ah, monstrous body parts and trophies are interesting, to be sure. But they seem to encourage PCs becoming hardy poachers and taxidermists who butcher every valuable creature they can find for sale to the nearest wizard/alchemist/armourer/etc. I've seen a PC barbarian who kept mounting battle trophies (some drow ears, beholder eyestalks, a vampire fang, his own severed swordhand, etc) all over his smelly old hide armour - quite fearsome and gruesome and totemic and thematically cool stuff which sometimes evolved into some minor storyline stuff and roleplaying challenges. But I've seen other PCs haul around extradimensional wagonloads of neatly categorized and preserved dragon bits, giant bits, undead bits, etc ... they end up having a rather unhealthy obsession with harvesting bodily parts and selling them on the local alchemical black market ... and that seems to take their focus away from the "heroic" things they should really be doing.
I certainly wouldn't encourage PCs to drag every corpse they make back to town, but there is still value in having various body parts be worth something and have a specific use...
The obvious angle is that someone needs the bladder of this critter and the horns of this one, to make some magical goodie -- especially a goodie the PCs want.
Or, to flip it slightly, the PCs find the lair of some fearsome critter, but it's already dead, and it happened recently. Looking at the corpse, they notice the eyes, the stomach, and its thyroid have all been removed. Let that happen a couple of times, and the PCs are going to be quite interested in finding out who this mysterious slayer is, and what those body parts are being used for.
As for trophies... One of my characters tended to collect trophies. There was an encounter where some wolves gnawed on his legs, while he was asleep (very bad die rolls, on my part). After the encounter was over, my character spent some time plucking out teeth from the mouths of the now-slain wolves, and later made a necklace of them. Many months later, he made another necklace, out of a fang from a T-rex's mouth.
In my current gaming group, one of the characters is a hunter-type, and several of the critters we've slain have had their heads turned into trophies. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2015 : 10:53:57
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| The familiarity of old monsters can be comforting yet I feel without the occasionally new monster popping up the story would soon grow staid. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2015 : 23:34:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I'm with you, Wooly. Brian and I are exploring picking a non-standard monster/adversarial race, and doing an entire sourcebook on them. It would include lore, history, and other content. It would be a fresh take on a common standard (there's so many "Dragon" books out there, for example).
My vote would be for griffons. Always loved them, to the point of making miniature ones for one of my Hooks.
(Who wouldn't want a griffon that was only the size of a house cat?)
Ah, good choice, Wooly! Are you by chance familiar with the "kitty-hawk" of Xanth? Sounds about like what you just described. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 01:37:55
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I think my fondest memory of a trophy was a dwarf keeping the skull of his first hill giant kill. Mainly because I figured we were all as good as dead since we were around 3rd level if I remember right and the battle felt so epic.
Extradimensional wagonloads of parts you say? I used to joke around that all adventurers probably look like the Junk Lady from the movie Labyrinth with all the stuff they seem to carry. hehe ;) |
Edited by - Eilserus on 19 Jan 2015 02:50:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2015 : 05:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I'm with you, Wooly. Brian and I are exploring picking a non-standard monster/adversarial race, and doing an entire sourcebook on them. It would include lore, history, and other content. It would be a fresh take on a common standard (there's so many "Dragon" books out there, for example).
My vote would be for griffons. Always loved them, to the point of making miniature ones for one of my Hooks.
(Who wouldn't want a griffon that was only the size of a house cat?)
Ah, good choice, Wooly! Are you by chance familiar with the "kitty-hawk" of Xanth? Sounds about like what you just described.
Only read a handful of Xanth novels, and none since high school -- which was quite some time ago.
I went with the duhlarkin angle -- using Duhlark's Animerge from the City of Splendors boxed set. "Falcats" as I later dubbed them are house cats and falcons merged into miniature griffons. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Stick to the classic monsters!
