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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 02:07:38
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I've seen several mentions of the set, and it seems like it's usually held up as one of the Realms most misbegotten products. I couldn't find a topic already covering it, so I wanted to ask why that is.
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 02:31:45
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| I dunno. I like it. I gather that it might have gone in a different direction from where Ed would have taken it, but I don't remember having any problems with it. The layout reminds me of the grey box, and I like its treatment of the phaerimm... it's the later work on phaerimm that fell flat in my opinion. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 10 Jan 2015 02:37:42 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 03:44:28
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Okay, where to start ...
In general terms, how about, not enough information. Big font. Lots of wasted space. Pick up "Cormanthyr" and do a comparison in that regard.
More specific reasons/examples are:
Among the biggest problems with the Netheril boxed set is that the designer wrote it in a vacuum in that it pays no attention to the Realms around it. At any given time in its history, Netheril is surrounded by Delzoun, Eaerlann, Sharrven, Evereska, Cormanthyr, and a host of other, smaller nations and kingdoms. The interaction between Netheril and those entities is dealt with superficially, if at all.
There is little information into how Netheril actually operated. Who governed it and how? Was it a loose confederation of city states? How did it sustain itself food wise, tradewise, and security-wise? What were the greatest threats to Netheril? What organisations operated within it? How did the gods and clerics fit into the dynamic of the realm? The information on these aspects ranged from woeful to non-existent.
Magic-use in Netheril: the designer was obviously given a mandate to go "wild" and so there was a huge focus on magic, but not in any way that I would describe as coherent or detailed. Asserting that most spells in the PH had a Netherese origin (with an accompanying name) is just pure rubbish. Quasi-magic items were the surface equivalent of Underdark drow items intended to prevent power creep and yet have a plethora of magic. The concept was a good one, not matched in my view with the execution. The term itself - "quasi-magic items" - is simply awful. Again, a ton of wasted opportunities. Existing Netherese lore on magic dealing with sceptres, mantles and other concepts were again ignored or dealt with superficially. Ed had made it clear that mantles were the linchpin of Netherese magic, but they received cursory attention. Look at the "mantle" spell in "Secrets of the Magister" to understand the information that was available to TSR at the time.
Names. Oh boy, where do I start. The names on the whole for people and places weren't "Realmsian" and suspended disbelief every time you read about "Lady Polaris" or the city of "Buoyance" or places like the "Marsh of Amnesty", "Two Rivers Reservation" (was there a casino there I wonder?) or "Sanguine Mountain" (Sanguine Mountain - really? No doubt located right next to the Peaks of Confidence ... *sigh*). Just bad.
Finally, a lack of what I describe as "realmslore". Little mentions of people, places, organisations, historical events - the stuff you find scattered through products such as the Volo's Guides.
To me, the Netheril boxed set is the single biggest disappointment in the FR 2E product line ever. What a huge waste of a concept that had amazing potential and could have provided a basis for the history/genesis of the modern human realms. If only they'd handed the project to Steven Schend.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 10 Jan 2015 13:47:01 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 05:12:11
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Weren't all the place names taken from song names done by some 3rd-rate band?
Yeah, that source, to me, is the RPG equivalent of a Michael Bay movie: All flash and no depth. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 05:27:41
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Well, when you put it like that...
The thing with giving Netherese names to most/all of the PH spells bugged me for a couple minutes, "back in the day," but a Greenwoodian solution (if I do say so myself) occurred to me and I went with it. Every "original" (I can't think of a more precise word for it, except for one that's kinda sophomoric) civilization has its own names for spells, and the phenomena they observe. So Netherese mages named the spells they came up with, the Imaskari had come up with those/similar spells thousands of years earlier and of course had their own names for them, elven civilizations had their own names for everything, etc. I think this is something we all know but just kinda gloss over, so it was easy to say "this is just laying out the Netherese names, no biggie." It might also be true that additional care could have been taken to make sure spells were developed in a logical order... I haven't analyzed that angle.
The above is not trying to diminish George's points, none of which I have any inclination to disagree with. I guess I partially bought into the "vacuum" that was presented. I was also assuming that Arcane Age was going to become a product line which would present at least one point in time for every historical nation in Faerun. Because Arcane Age was so genius as an idea that it was unfathomable that they would fail to capitalize on it. Many unfathomable things have become reality thanks to TSR and WotC.
I'm just offering up my workaround for that one issue, which I think encourages additional development in other areas. If you're writing about a civilization which developed their own magic, take a minute to name their historically-prominent mages... and give them good names. Same design principle should hold for warriors, priests, rogues, etc. Every culture has legends and heroes. |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 05:32:52
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Okay, where to start ...
To me, the Netheril boxed set is the single biggest disappointment in the FR 2E product line ever. What a huge waste of a concept that had amazing potential and could have provided a basis for the history/genesis of the modern human realms.
-- George Krashos
I couldn't agree more.
This passage from FR13, Anauroch, inspires more imagination than all of the content in the Netheril boxed set:
quote:
Even those who agree can show fell, treasures recovered from it, but when this was pointed out, Elminster merely shrugged and held up an ornate, hand-sized carving of a spired castle. Strolling to the door of his ramshackle tower, he tossed it into the air, whispered a secret word-and in the meadow beyond his pool, a huge castle of black obsidian suddenly stood, tall and splendid and very real.
"When too many guests come calling to sleep here," the Old Mage of Shadowdale said mildly,"I always have this; one of the least powerful magics of the Netherese, but the only one I've found in Anauroch. I haven't much time to go wandering about there, mind-this was just lying on a table, in an old house half-buried in sand. Where?" He smiled, and waved northwards. "Oh-just out there."
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Edited by - Rymac on 10 Jan 2015 06:48:24 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 05:36:27
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"Names. Oh boy, where do I start. The names on the whole for people and places weren't "Realmsian" and suspended disbelief every time you read about "Lady Polaris" or the city of "Buoyance" or places like the "Marsh of Amnesty", "Two Rivers Reservation" (was there a casino there I wonder?) or "Sanguine Mountain" (Sanguine Mountain - really? No doubt located right next to the Peaks of Confidence ... *sigh*). Just bad."
hahahaha this had me laughing good. ;)
And just to clarify, I do agree.
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Edited by - Eilserus on 10 Jan 2015 05:37:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 06:05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Weren't all the place names taken from song names done by some 3rd-rate band?
As I recall from prior posts, the band was Deep Purple. I cannot make any comments on whether or not they were 3rd-rate. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 14:11:30
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| Thanks for the info George. That does sound like a bit of a mess. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2015 : 23:53:59
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I wouldn't say it's quite as bad as some of the drek that Michael Bay has come out with...that's insulting to any form of media.
There's a LOT of information in it, though it could have done so much more with the space it wasted as Krash said. The spying games between Netheril and Illefarn that are mentioned but barely touched upon for example. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 01:55:36
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As for the silly names, I think its been decided that those are the translation of the names into Common from the original Netherese, and some things HAVE been given proper Realmsian names since.
While I agree with your logic concerning the spells, xaeyruudh, I still felt it was completely unnecessary. If the acceptance in D&D is that those spells have different names on different worlds with different cultures, but that we (the gamers in the RW) use the Core (GH) names for simplicity sake for our games, then what was the point of doing it for that one product? It just took up room and accomplished nothing; it was a vanity item, nothing more.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Weren't all the place names taken from song names done by some 3rd-rate band?
As I recall from prior posts, the band was Deep Purple. I cannot make any comments on whether or not they were 3rd-rate.
I just looked-up all songs by Deep purple, and thats not it.
Now that I've had some time to think about it, I think it may have even been some band the author himself was in at some point. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2015 01:55:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2015 : 02:08:03
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Found the info in another thread - we just talked about this exact same stuff two years ago...
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I gave the answer above. Members of ex-Deep Purple singer Ian Gillans later bands Ian Gillan band and Gillan. And just so it has been said Markus; Im a huge Ian Gillan fan, so the craptastic comment is a challenge that could get ugly.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 00:29:22
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I actually dont mind the names so much, mostly. Some were awful, some were actually not that bad. Significant things need names. A simple half-handwaved explanation might just be that ancient names in ancient places have just been translated and mistranslated and retranslated badly into modern usage - compare how we use our English words vs their older English/Germanic antecedants. To say nothing of how quaint and stuffy classical Latin or Greek names and expressions might sound to our modern ears - their mundane chitchat, meticulous academia, and flowery poetry might generally sound quite bland and uninspired compared to our own (largely Latin- and Greek-influenced) linguistic sophistications. This is not to say its all bad, but methinks much of the finest prose and most critical eloquence they passed to us has in fact been refined to a high degree across many centuries of scholarly translator-artisans. Loross in the Realms is a lost language from a (violently) lost civilization, it might be argued that those who preserved Netherils naming legacy were largely those who were biased against Netherils excesses.
There are many half-lost pagan mythologies and folklores in Europe which speak of some defunct people or other in negative ways, typically using such references to serve as examples of entire tribes, cities, nations, or civilizations condemned to destruction (supernatural, natural, or political) because of their wicked, decadent, selfish ways. Indeed, this is the foundation of Norse, Celtic, Greek, and Latin mythologies, it even persists in modern monotheisms. And it gives us exciting tales about ordinary places like Pompeii or Easter Island, it inspires extraordinary places like Atlantis or Lemuria.
Sanguine Mountain aint so bad. Especially since the word sanguine has so many meanings to us (and so many more to those who came before us). The reference could refer to anything from blood-red coloured stone to emotionally calming natural tranquility to passionately oppressive heat (and boiling lava pools) to brilliant red sunrises over the peak to rich deposits of iron ore or blood-like gemstones to some sort of passing reference to some historical bloodshed (or lack of it) occurring at the site. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 01:00:37
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One thing that always bugged me about the Netheril boxed set was the fact that we had 50 flying cities, mostly functioning as independent city-states, that all stayed in the same area, for no readily apparent reason.
We know a handful of the cities went elsewhere, beyond the borders of Netheril proper. What I don't recall any mention of is why the rest of the cities didn't.
In fact, had the cities dispersed, the history of Netheril likely would have gone in a different direction. The war with the phaerimm would have been different, Ioulaum's leave-taking wouldn't have been that big of a deal, and another excuse would have had to have been created for Karsus to cast his spell.
(On a similar note, I never understood why the princes of Shade were so particularly tied to the same chunk of land. I get sentimental value, but at the same time, they could have used their resources a lot better by parking the city over a more hospitable part of the Realms.)
(On yet another note, I find myself wondering how much tweaking it would take to have the Rock of Bral be a former Netherese enclave, that ditched its then-quiescent mythallar after the rest of Netheril fell, and eventually developed into the Rock we know today) |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 06:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One thing that always bugged me about the Netheril boxed set was the fact that we had 50 flying cities, mostly functioning as independent city-states, that all stayed in the same area, for no readily apparent reason.
No spellcasters wanted to be saddled with the task of creating food and water for the enclave's entire population, or working the "peon" industries like retail sales, food service, etc. They needed regular contact with Lower Netheril for food, and a steady supply of job applicants. Still, it's a fair point that portals could have addressed that concern.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
(On yet another note, I find myself wondering how much tweaking it would take to have the Rock of Bral be a former Netherese enclave, that ditched its then-quiescent mythallar after the rest of Netheril fell, and eventually developed into the Rock we know today)
It would have had to leave Toril before the Fall --probably back in the Silver Age or whenever it was that they did most of their spelljamming-- but this makes way too much sense to be coincidence. The Rock even looks like an enclave, if I'm remembering the old maps right.
One thing that bothered me about the Netheril box was the incomplete-ness of the list of enclaves. We don't even know who the founders were for a lot of them, or what their names were, or if/where they fell. Bral would cross one of them off the list.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 12 Jan 2015 06:37:59 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 13:44:25
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I like that - enclaves that 'left the area' became disconnected from Netheril and the support system they would have had in place.
I totally see Wooly's point, though. You have a bunch of archmages living in mobile flying cities, and the ground beneath them is turning to crap and could kill them... and they just stayed? 
I understand why the Shades wanted the same territory back - we have seen RW world situations were people wanted their 'ancestral lands' to become theirs again, even over a thousand years later. Its cultural ego thing.
I had a homebrew enclave that crashed in the Celstial Sea, over in Kara-Tur. I was going to use it in the K-T material we were doing over on the WotC forums. The worst of the damage was mitigated by the Giants in Gray, and it became an Atlantis-like underwater city (using the seafolk race for those survivors today). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2015 13:45:04 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 14:26:24
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Well in my rewrite i have the Netheril flying enclaves trapped like rats (although like Ed's Netheril not all of them are cities and not all of them fly through the air).
By the time the Archmages knew what was happening (they knew something was wrong but not that they were being deliberately targetted) it was far too late to leave.
The desert was large and filled with monsters and phaerimm that could assail a flying city and bring it low (magic drain affects mythallar and phaerimm can fly) so they couldnt retreat to the west. The elves to the east prevented the Netherese from retreating that way (they learned from Eaerlann that elves are hard). The dragon flights of Thauglor prevented them retreating south. The giants of Jhothun (they only destroyed one city) and the dragons of Hoarfaern prevented them retreating north.
There was nowhere else to run. The elves of Earlann hated Netheril. The Savage Frontier was largely deserted. Nothing existed in Sembia or Cormyr. Narfell was full of barbarians. A floating city relies upon a certain amount of civilised people in order to survive, the archmages certainly werent going to land their enclave and slum it with the commoners and get food for themselves.
The cities that the enclaves relied on for food were being systematically eradicated and the only ones left remained in the Seventon region. So they all clustered around that region like headless chickens trying to think about what to do next. Ioulaum disappeared and they were left leaderless and then suddenly Karsus stepped in with his ego and convinced everyone he could save the day.
I even wrote in Aumvor as the Lichlord from the adventure How the Might Are Fallen, so the Netherese were surrounded by enemies of their own making.
Although i have changed the order of the events of Netheril i didnt really put anything in that wasnt already in there or in other sourcebooks. The impending doom i just made inevitable. The Netherese thought they were all powerful, but they made too many enemies and perished because of it.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 16:47:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well in my rewrite i have the Netheril flying enclaves trapped like rats (although like Ed's Netheril not all of them are cities and not all of them fly through the air).
By the time the Archmages knew what was happening (they knew something was wrong but not that they were being deliberately targetted) it was far too late to leave.
The desert was large and filled with monsters and phaerimm that could assail a flying city and bring it low (magic drain affects mythallar and phaerimm can fly) so they couldnt retreat to the west. The elves to the east prevented the Netherese from retreating that way (they learned from Eaerlann that elves are hard). The dragon flights of Thauglor prevented them retreating south. The giants of Jhothun (they only destroyed one city) and the dragons of Hoarfaern prevented them retreating north.
There was nowhere else to run. The elves of Earlann hated Netheril. The Savage Frontier was largely deserted. Nothing existed in Sembia or Cormyr. Narfell was full of barbarians. A floating city relies upon a certain amount of civilised people in order to survive, the archmages certainly werent going to land their enclave and slum it with the commoners and get food for themselves.
The cities that the enclaves relied on for food were being systematically eradicated and the only ones left remained in the Seventon region. So they all clustered around that region like headless chickens trying to think about what to do next. Ioulaum disappeared and they were left leaderless and then suddenly Karsus stepped in with his ego and convinced everyone he could save the day.
I even wrote in Aumvor as the Lichlord from the adventure How the Might Are Fallen, so the Netherese were surrounded by enemies of their own making.
Although i have changed the order of the events of Netheril i didnt really put anything in that wasnt already in there or in other sourcebooks. The impending doom i just made inevitable. The Netherese thought they were all powerful, but they made too many enemies and perished because of it.
They couldn't have been trapped, though... We know that some enclaves did leave the area (and I'm not referring to the planes-hoppers, either). These enclaves obviously found other means of support, and/or ways to stay connected with the others.
Additionally, being physically unable to leave would have given the archmages something more concrete to focus on, and a breakout would have happened.
Lastly, there were non-flying enclaves located elsewhere -- Sargauth, the three that became the bay of Saerloon, and most likely others that have escaped mention. So there was nothing stopping individual arcanists from leaving -- which means they also could have gone elsewhere, raised a new flying city beyond the boundaries of Netheril, "called" home for some people to populate it, and then gone on their way. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 17:40:37
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| This is one reason why it is so ridiculous for us not to have an entire planet fleshed out. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 18:41:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
This is one reason why it is so ridiculous for us not to have an entire planet fleshed out.
I agree, to an extent... I don't want (at least, not right now) the same coverage we've had for the other continents as we've had for Faerūn. But we do need more info than we have.
I'd be happy enough if the other continents of Toril got the same coverage that Ed gave Laerakond/Returned Abeir, in the 4E campaign book. Keep the focus on Faerūn, but give us enough to work with for the rest.
An idea I've long kicked around was to have one of the flying enclaves head out over the sea and park over another continent, where it came down during the Fall. But, unlike most of the Netherese enclaves, either this one was high enough for Mystra 1.0 to "catch" it as she did with those that became the survivor states, or much of the populace had already "gone ashore" on the new land, leaving a fair number of survivors.
I've not really done a lot more with the idea, due in no small part to being easily distracted by bright and shiny objects and giving more time to projects of more immediate use to myself. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 21:16:25
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| It is ridiculous to assume that flying cities should be held in check by continental barriers. Fly higher or further than your enemies. It is IMO stupid to assume that Netheril was confined to Faerun. I have serious 4th wall issues with this. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2015 : 21:24:23
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| It is so ridiculously stupid. It makes no sense. If there was a race of hyper-magical geniuses that could alter the laws of nature with a simple incantation, why was it so hard for them to cross the sea, and either subjugate that population (if there was one) to their will or simply create a class of servitors?! |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 00:28:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
It is so ridiculously stupid. It makes no sense. If there was a race of hyper-magical geniuses that could alter the laws of nature with a simple incantation, why was it so hard for them to cross the sea, and either subjugate that population (if there was one) to their will or simply create a class of servitors?!
Why would they need to cross the sea to do this?
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 00:34:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One thing that always bugged me about the Netheril boxed set was the fact that we had 50 flying cities, mostly functioning as independent city-states, that all stayed in the same area, for no readily apparent reason.
My Netheril doesn't have 50 flying cities. It does however have 50 flying enclaves.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 07:33:13
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One thing that always bugged me about the Netheril boxed set was the fact that we had 50 flying cities, mostly functioning as independent city-states, that all stayed in the same area, for no readily apparent reason.
My Netheril doesn't have 50 flying cities. It does however have 50 flying enclaves.
-- George Krashos
I approached this whole conundrum rather simply [or, so it seemed at the outset]. My Netheril only has as many floating cities and/or enclaves as my campaign plots require.  |
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Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 18:05:08
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Just curious, has anyone pulled together all tidbits of the Ed Greenwood original vision of Netheril scattered around Candlekeep?
That would be pretty awesome. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2015 : 22:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Rymac
Just curious, has anyone pulled together all tidbits of the Ed Greenwood original vision of Netheril scattered around Candlekeep?
That would be pretty awesome.
I have collected what Ed has said about Netheril in his Chamber of Sages thread. I'll post it tonight.
I also have his pre-Netheril boxed set 'general couple of pages' which was sent through to TSR to assist in the planning for the product. That I can't release but it is thought provoking in terms of what TSR ran with and what they ignored, and the 'take' they had on some of the concepts presented in it.
Let's just say that "enclaves" weren't originally solely flying cities.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Topic |
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What was wrong with the Netheril box set?
