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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 21:23:51
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Bit of a wall of text here, starting with Markustay and then Caolin. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Originally, 'Icewind Dale' (Drizzt & Co.) was in The Bloodstone Lands
Nice catch; I didn't notice this. I've wondered for a while why RA Salvatore wrote FR9 when none of his novels (at that time) were placed there. I wonder if Menzoberranzan was originally supposed to be under Vaasa. Then again... Cadderly wasn't in that area. He's entitled to set his stories wherever he wants, and I can see them shaping up the way they did regardless of which part of the north Icewind Dale finally got attached to. Moving it around just creates potential weirdness, though, so I think it's a bad idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
you're getting annoyed at stuff they've been doing since the beginning.
When it's stupid, yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ed invented Tyr? Loviatar & Oghma? There are no 'connections' to other worlds in The Forgotten Realms? Its the basic premise! Ed has said time and time again how FR has tons of stuff from other worlds that have been 'leaking' into the Realms over the course of untold millenia.
No, you've kicked the stones off one area in which I'm not fully on-board with Ed's layout of the pantheon. I would much prefer that all of the Realms' deities were intentionally designed rather than picked out of Deities & Demigods. Even when gods are copied from Earth's mythology, their aspects and activities in the Realms should be unique to the Realms, enough to be interesting even to people who are very familiar with the mythology from which that god was taken -- I think Bane is a good example here. I also believe that this must have been Ed's intent -- I don't have his words to cite, but it seems consistent.
In fact, I would prefer that the 1e Deities & Demigods was a hugely different book and thus a different precedent for later editions. Rather than talk about Earth's mythology, it should have looked at how to design deities for a fantasy setting. I think that would have been a helpful resource, whereas Deities & Demigods was a crutch.
I regard Tyr and the others as placeholders, which Ed would likely have breathed life into if TSR's acquisition of the setting hadn't abruptly kept him very busy in the more-traveled areas of the Realms. I'm not objecting at all to all the things that have benefited from his attention. I just think the generic deities have been weaknesses of the setting rather than strengths... at least until they've been "fleshed out" and given interactions in the Realms, and thus been rendered less generic -- Loviatar got some flavor in Dambrath, for instance. To some extent this is true of the designed deities too -- we're pretty well in the dark about Leira since she was removed from the setting basically as soon as the setting was published. Let it go? Hell no.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So here's my take (for what its worth): They had a Spellplague - "When Worlds Collide" - and now they have this Sundering thingamajigy. Also, we had the ToT, during which which large swaths of terrain became chaotic and interposed with other worlds.
Refresh my memory here. What parts of the Realms got moved around or transposed with other settings during the TOT? Not trying to be snarky, just concerned that I missed another reason to hate the TOT. I thought this sleight-of-realms only happened during the Spellplague, which was completely 100% wrong-headed from conception onward. I don't recognize a mind-boggling mistake as justification for anything, even when it becomes a precedent for future fubar decisions.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is also a bit of this in other D&D settings (most notably RL) - things are not only ALL interconnected through the over-cosmology (PS/SJ) - but we've seen plenty of evidence that entire Realms got swapped-around from world to world every so often (Domains of Dread, Returned Abeir, etc).
I'm willing to grudgingly go along with this, except for one gaping pothole. WotC dropped Planescape and Spelljammer, and has been ignoring/removing all references to them ever since. Yes, other planes exist, but there's not much talk about traveling between them anymore and little/no support for adventuring in other planes since 2e. Modrons in the 5e MM don't count, because they're not couched in the context of the planes... they're presented as monsters you can use in your (Prime Material) adventures. Beyond this potential for bringing Planescape monsters into "terrestrial" games, Planescape doesn't exist as far as WotC is concerned. Spelljammer is, if possible, even more ignored and rejected.
Sooo... things are only interconnected to the extent that things are imported without explanation into other settings. Tharizdun showing up in the Realms doesn't constitute a connection between FR and GH... where are the portals leading from cities in the Realms to cities in Oerth? Where are the Wizards Three articles, in 3e/4e/5e? WotC has killed all connections between settings. They just try to sell new products by cherrypicking certain discrete objects from defunct settings and plunking them down into the Realms. To me, those are not connections. Those are gashes in the fourth wall.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So think about it - they aren't doing anything different then they've been doing all along, and they even got the mother-of-all McGuffins to cover it in canon.
It's been wrong all along, and McGuffins are lazy and that pisses me off too.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And guess what? Its still tastes the same.
Yup, still tastes like crap. Actually, I'm still optimistic about 5e because in spite of the Tyranny of Dragons being wrong about everything, the 5e treatment of the Realms is still better than 4e was.
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Geez, do you guys have to pick apart everything? Who says that the Elder Elemental Evil HAS to be in Greyhawk only? It's a multi-verse spanning evil. There's no literary or game specific reason that this couldn't happen in the Realms.
True, if it's a multi-world thing, then it can be in the Realms too. But in that case, if there's a god behind it, then it needs to be a multiworld god... like an Elder God or Dark God. Tharizdun might be the GH face of that god, but he would only be mentioned in a GH adventure path. Ghaunadaur might be the FR face, in which case he should be used for the FR adventure path. Using Tharizdun in the Realms or for a generic D&D adventure, is something like calling out the wrong name in the bedroom... just don't do it. 
Unless, of course, Tharizdun isn't the GH alias of the Elder God but rather a separate god in his own right and the intent of the adventure path is to bring him into the Realms, in which case the campaign should be about the conflicts that will cause. (And WotC will have to handwave Ao away, which would be awkward in the midst of using Ao to handwave through the Sundering.)
But if Tharizdun is a GH-specific deity, and not just the GH name of a larger god, then he doesn't have the power to waltz into other settings and shrug off the opposition of entire pantheons.
This might all be a tangent based on the assumption that the Elder Elemental Evil is Tharizdun, and that he's a GH-specific god. Which wasn't my assumption, but without establishing that Tharizdun is just an alias of some bigger god they're using for this multiverse-spanning adventure path... Tharizdun doesn't belong in the Realms.
I guess I'm picking everything apart. 
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
D&D is founded on borrowed material.
Yes, D&D started out pretty full of tropes and slapstick. I think Gary Gygax put a whole lot of himself into D&D, and there are places where it's absurd and other places where maybe his insecurities and need for control come out, but that was the game. Later editions have built on it, emphasizing some things and minimizing others, and it's still absurd in places, but that's the game.
Not trying to nitpick your word choice here, but I think it's important to emphasize that the setting is not the game. The Forgotten Realms as a world is not founded on borrowed material. Well, maybe somewhat, to the extent that Ed has probably read more books than I've ever even seen, and sure he incorporates parts into the Realms --several of the gods got original names but still started out basically copied out of Deities & Demigods with a few minor tweaks-- but I don't think anybody can reasonably argue that the Realms are just a pile of copied ideas. The Zhentarim doesn't exist in other settings. The Cult of the Dragon... unique to the Realms.
My point here is just that the only way you can say the Realms is founded on borrowed material is if you're channeling King Solomon, and there's nothing new under the sun. More pointedly, putting Tharizdun in the Realms, or Tyr for that matter, reduces the creativity and leads toward everything being the same. Why would we want that?
As long as it's been happening, it's been wrong. Rather than accepting and excusing it, we should be fighting it.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Or, instead of re-inventing the wheel, the designers might stop resurrecting 30 year old D&D events/organizations and come up with something original for the Realms. Just saying.
+10 to this.
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 21:26:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Ed is certainly the originator and perhaps the most beloved of Realms creators - but he is not the only one. Hundreds of authors and game designers shaped the Realms we know and love (regardless which edition lore it might be set within), we can each admire some particular nuance or other which Ed really had nothing to do with (other than perhaps adding subsequent embelishments).
Greyhawk was (and perhaps still is) an immensely popular D&D setting, full of breadth and width. Besides, who is to say that Gygax (inventor of Greyhawk and indeed D&D itself) was less than Ed? Both of these men along with numerous others (including half-forgotten Jeff Grubb) are responsible for the rulebooks and the Realms we know. That being said, I personally have little interest in Greyhawk, indeed not even a lot in the Realms (because - duh! - Planescape is where it's all at, of course). But we cannot arbitrarily dismiss Greyhawk entirely, and especially not just because it's old and stuffy - early Realmslore is no better in that regard.
The Realms has been a sort of fertile dumping ground for all the bits of lore which didn't fit into other settings - the Underdark and Shou are prominent examples, Vaasa and Damara too, along with the Moonshaes, the fabricated "city" of Phlan, Raven's Bluff (lol), and countless snippets of Spelljammer/Planescape lore.
And really, in the end, does it much matter if one battles Vecna or one battles Bane? Is a Quiver of Ehlonna functionally any different than a Quiver of Mielikki? At least Greyhawk has (thus far) been largely immune to all the violent calamities which semi-regularly smash the Realms and Krynn and Mystara and even Athas apart.
I agree with what you are saying, but my beef is with Wizards taking stuff from Greyhawk and adding it to the Realms since they won't be doing an official Greyhawk setting. I think taking away from that setting takes away part of what makes that setting great and stand apart from others.
People have been mentioning Vaasa and the Moonshaes but the fact of the matter is, some of the stuff they are trying to import already has a long history as part of another setting. Areas such as the Underdark, Phlan, Vaasa, etc can easily be moved into the Realms, especially into an area that probably never got a write up.
We aren't really comparing like for like here. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 22:11:20
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Re. this, from xaeyruudh:
"I regard Tyr and the others as placeholders, which Ed would likely have breathed life into if TSR's acquisition of the setting hadn't abruptly kept him very busy in the more-traveled areas of the Realms."
You are spot-on correct here.
They were indeed placeholders, and Ed did design Realms "faces" and Realms powers for all of his deities. Which TSR in most cases ignored utterly, though much of Ed's lore made it into the three gods books of 2nd Edition (especially the first one).
However, Ed's focus was always on precisely where TSR's never was: NOT on deities (their avatars, powers, and special never-missing weapons and other artifacts) but on their priesthoods, aims and ethos (and worldly aims, admitted or otherwise). Not to mention their taboos and daily directives for PCs.
Ed designed manifestations for the gods of the Realms, not avatars. He never wanted gods striding onstage fighting PCs or NPCs. Still doesn't - - and one of the things that pleases him about 5e is that increasingly deities are stepping back from mortals. Affecting them just as much, but using intermediaries more. (Or so he's been told the design approach is.)
As for the published Realms using elements from everywhere: that was how TSR intended to use it from the outset. To be the cradle that could accommodate all sorts of game play (from pirates to jungles to glacier to Lost World Indian Jones-style exploration and dinosaur fighting to crumbling castles, plus all flavors of historical Earth past and Hollywood versions of same). Jeff Grubb pitched it that way to his bosses; it was to be the home setting for the 2nd Edition of the D&D game, broad, vast, and versatile enough to encompass everything. (And it sure got used that way!)
love to all,
THO |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 22:24:09
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As to what parts of the Realms were 'transposed' with bits from 'other worlds', this is something I hadn't remembered, but Brian James had pointed out to me. If you re-read certain parts of the series you will notice that a LOT of the problems the characters faced were caused by not knowing the landscape anymore - entire mountain ranges (notably one in Cormyr) appeared out of nowhere (and that one was made out of glass, IIRC). BJ referenced that same mountain range in his 4e Cormyr article (assuming that the 'strange terrain' that was witnessed during the ToT were bits of Abeir trying to 'solidify' back on Toril, all of which 'went away' when things returned to normal... thus making the Avatar Crisis an 'almost Spellplague').
But tossing all that meta-gaming knowledge aside, it just comes down to this - evil is evil, and it does what it does, everywhere, over and over. If it doesn't succeed on one world, it tries on another. Different locale, with different allies perhaps, and certainly different heroes trying to stop them... but the cycle goes on. 'Good vs. evil' is the most basic trope of all. You can look at it like they are just recycling old stuff (and they are), but its good, classic stuff that is worth bringing into a new edition. Worthy material that should have a place in D&D, whatever world is the 'core setting' of the latest editions.
These are not simple adventure modules - these are sacred cows the game was built upon. Why not take the best parts of D&D over the past 40 years and embrace it? I'm not saying change FR to fit them, but rather, modify (and update) them to fit FR. There is room for everything, and I don't mind having more stuff to choose from. Hell, half our (FR) stuff 'went core' back in 3e (like the Drow of the Underdark), so its not like we aren't just getting a little payback. How much worse would it have been if Greyhawk was core again - or Eberron - and we saw FR PrCs and lore winding up there instead? A Red Wizard class for the Scarlet Brotherhood? Not much of a stretch there.
Just be glad that it seems The Realms (and D&D) are finally getting the focus they deserve. No more sharing face-time with a dozen other settings. Some truly great stuff has been created over the years, and we should feel honored that FR gets to be its home now.
Granted, all of this is from the perspective of the game player. For those of you who just follow the story, I'm afraid there isn't much for you then. If you don't like the direction the setting is taking, I can't help you, and neither can they. The novel line is just limping along at this point, and they need D&D to succeed; and to that end they have decided that FR is their best bet. We should feel good about that. If this was a horse-race, we'd be "the favorite to win". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2015 22:29:20 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 23:34:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As to what parts of the Realms were 'transposed' with bits from 'other worlds', this is something I hadn't remembered, but Brian James had pointed out to me. If you re-read certain parts of the series you will notice that a LOT of the problems the characters faced were caused by not knowing the landscape anymore - entire mountain ranges (notably one in Cormyr) appeared out of nowhere (and that one was made out of glass, IIRC). BJ referenced that same mountain range in his 4e Cormyr article (assuming that the 'strange terrain' that was witnessed during the ToT were bits of Abeir trying to 'solidify' back on Toril, all of which 'went away' when things returned to normal... thus making the Avatar Crisis an 'almost Spellplague').
But tossing all that meta-gaming knowledge aside, it just comes down to this - evil is evil, and it does what it does, everywhere, over and over. If it doesn't succeed on one world, it tries on another. Different locale, with different allies perhaps, and certainly different heroes trying to stop them... but the cycle goes on. 'Good vs. evil' is the most basic trope of all. You can look at it like they are just recycling old stuff (and they are), but its good, classic stuff that is worth bringing into a new edition. Worthy material that should have a place in D&D, whatever world is the 'core setting' of the latest editions.
These are not simple adventure modules - these are sacred cows the game was built upon. Why not take the best parts of D&D over the past 40 years and embrace it? I'm not saying change FR to fit them, but rather, modify (and update) them to fit FR. There is room for everything, and I don't mind having more stuff to choose from. Hell, half our (FR) stuff 'went core' back in 3e (like the Drow of the Underdark), so its not like we aren't just getting a little payback. How much worse would it have been if Greyhawk was core again - or Eberron - and we saw FR PrCs and lore winding up there instead? A Red Wizard class for the Scarlet Brotherhood? Not much of a stretch there.
Just be glad that it seems The Realms (and D&D) are finally getting the focus they deserve. No more sharing face-time with a dozen other settings. Some truly great stuff has been created over the years, and we should feel honored that FR gets to be its home now.
Granted, all of this is from the perspective of the game player. For those of you who just follow the story, I'm afraid there isn't much for you then. If you don't like the direction the setting is taking, I can't help you, and neither can they. The novel line is just limping along at this point, and they need D&D to succeed; and to that end they have decided that FR is their best bet. We should feel good about that. If this was a horse-race, we'd be "the favorite to win".
FR is their best bet and yet they refuse to give the majority of Realms fans what they have been asking for. They have already stated they won't be doing a lot of published material so they are refusing to give us what we ask for and just cram everything into a book, no matter if it fits or not, and slaps the FR logo on it.
I would rather see the Realms shelved than turned into a marketing abomination. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 00:09:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Originally, 'Icewind Dale' (Drizzt & Co.) was in The Bloodstone Lands (if you don't believe me, just look at the back cover of the product of the same name). The Bloodstone Lands themselves - Vassa & Damara - were NOT part of Ed's Realms. The 1st module in the series came out in 1e before TSR officially published FR.
While Icewind Dale was definitely shoe-horned into the Realms, as were the Bloodstone Lands, I don't believe Icewind Dale was originally part of the Bloodstone lands. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 01:21:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ed invented Tyr? Loviatar & Oghma? There are no 'connections' to other worlds in The Forgotten Realms? Its the basic premise! Ed has said time and time again how FR has tons of stuff from other worlds that have been 'leaking' into the Realms over the course of untold millenia.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't stuff like that why the setting is called the "Forgotten" Realms in the first place? Without connections to other worlds, whose forgotten them? |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 01:52:17
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I like Markus' positivity, and I'm probably going to come off as fighting it (especially now that I've predicted that) but that's not my intent. I just think the problems go deep and positivity is warranted once we've seen evidence that the problems are being solved.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
However, Ed's focus was always on precisely where TSR's never was: NOT on deities (their avatars, powers, and special never-missing weapons and other artifacts) but on their priesthoods, aims and ethos (and worldly aims, admitted or otherwise). Not to mention their taboos and daily directives for PCs.
Thank you! It's heartwarming to have confirmation that Ed wanted something better, and had a path in mind.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
As for the published Realms using elements from everywhere: that was how TSR intended to use it from the outset. To be the cradle that could accommodate all sorts of game play (from pirates to jungles to glacier to Lost World Indian Jones-style exploration and dinosaur fighting to crumbling castles, plus all flavors of historical Earth past and Hollywood versions of same). Jeff Grubb pitched it that way to his bosses; it was to be the home setting for the 2nd Edition of the D&D game, broad, vast, and versatile enough to encompass everything. (And it sure got used that way!)
They missed one. They missed those of us who want a setting which feels like a living world with a rich and lengthy history, rather than a Die Hard movie marathon, or Armageddon on repeat. I like Die Hard movies, and Armageddon, but I watch other things in-between. Similarly, RSEs can be cool -- from a cinematic angle, not just to lure players in for thrills which must then be sustained in order to keep those players and which become ever shallower because after a while nobody can be bothered to think up good stories anymore because they don't matter when all you care about is explosions, which ultimately becomes the dumbest possible way to bring players into the game-- but action movies, overall, are a small percentage of the movies I watch... and I don't watch a ton of movies, because I prefer writing my own scenarios.
The Realms has an existential problem. The thirty years between 1358 and 1385 are filled with violent upheaval, to put it mildly. Gods walking on the earth, dying and ascending. Shadovar flying around using a hitherto-unknown form of magic which makes them omnipotent and immune to everything except Ed. WotC literally smashed worlds together, and then dissolved the Weave because they hadn't made a big enough booboo up to that point. The only justification for having RSEs every few years is that "it's always been like this.". But this cannot have been happening continuously for a thousand years, ten thousand years, fifty thousand years. The planet would have fallen apart by now. Magic wouldn't save it... magic is part of the problem in this scenario. The explanation doesn't explain anything.
Maybe WotC just can't wrap its head around the fact that the Realms is not M:TG.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
one of the things that pleases him about 5e is that increasingly deities are stepping back from mortals. Affecting them just as much, but using intermediaries more.
Fingers crossed. I'd really like to see more emphasis put on the followers and intermediaries (on that note, fix archons and eladrin back to the 3e version, put guardinals back, etc, please and thank you), and less "omg that's a god, in the flesh."
Whoever started the trend of printing stat blocks for gods should be taken behind the figurative wood shed... and left there. And yea, I'm aware that it's most likely Gary Gygax to blame; Lolth and various others have stat blocks in the original monster manuals, and then of course there's the 1e Deities & Demigods. Like I said, some of Gary's game was absurd.
With the recent playtesting, it looks like they're making progress in the game development arena... but a bottomless bog of lazy/dumb/blind is still evident in how settings are managed.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As to what parts of the Realms were 'transposed' with bits from 'other worlds', this is something I hadn't remembered, but Brian James had pointed out to me.
Interesting. Yet more evidence that the TOT became a precedent for the Spellplague. Or perhaps it can be cast as foreshadowing the Sundering, if we assume that the Spellplague and Sundering were already planned back at the conception of the TOT. If that were the case, I think we would have seen a more continuous and coherent portrayal of events in the intervening years. It makes more sense that each stage has been a desperate scramble for ways to handwave away the errors. But this is interesting. Thanks for the knowledge Markus.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
But tossing all that meta-gaming knowledge aside, it just comes down to this - evil is evil, and it does what it does, everywhere, over and over. If it doesn't succeed on one world, it tries on another. Different locale, with different allies perhaps, and certainly different heroes trying to stop them... but the cycle goes on.
Yes. I absolutely support this, for multiworld gods. Tiamat, Gruumsh, Juiblex, Asmodeus, and so forth. Also works for the Elder Elemental God, which is described on page 66 of the 2e Monster Mythology if, like me, you were thinking "that name is familiar but I can't place it."
However, it shouldn't be quite that easy if --for example-- Bane were to decide that the Realms isn't enough for him and he wants to take Greyhawk too. He would have to contend with all the gods there, both good and evil, including various multi-sphere gods like Corellon and Moradin who really don't care for the idea of evil spreading... especially human evil. And Bane is just Bane... or at least we have no evidence to support a firm conclusion that he's a multisphere god. So he's not legitimately stronger than Boccob of Oerth, and the idea that he could create a powerful church in Greyhawk without raising a huge stir is ridiculous. They could totally make a Tyranny-of-Dragons-esque campaign centered around Bane going to Oerth, if they wanted to, but without a campaign to support it the story will strain the limits of credulity. Even the story of the Elder Elemental God manifesting in Faerun is worth an adventure path...
So... "Elemental Evil" still sounds like Greyhawk because of the Temple of Elemental Evil, but the Elder Elemental God is multisphere.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm not saying change FR to fit them, but rather, modify (and update) them to fit FR. There is room for everything, and I don't mind having more stuff to choose from.
I don't mind when stuff is modified to fit the Realms. I mind when setting stuff --any setting really, but obviously FR in particular-- is modified without sufficient reason and in fact without apparent thought. The most recent and obvious example I can think of would go off on a tangent, and I know you're probably not just talking to me; just want to establish that we're not in disagreement about this part.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just be glad that it seems The Realms (and D&D) are finally getting the focus they deserve. No more sharing face-time with a dozen other settings.
This results in a huge problem, though. If there's only one active setting --and I know Eberron still exists, but the Realms is WotC's playground, especially after this talk of being the "flagship" setting-- then everything happens in that one setting. Every harebrained and outright stupid idea anybody has goes into the Realms. People who may or may not have the Realms' best interests in mind get to monkey around in the Realms... probably due to the shortage of hardcore Realms fans who are willing to play nice with everyone who wants to blow the place up all the time.
In my opinion, the Realms would be far better off if there were more settings on the menu. Dark Sun, Planescape, Ravenloft (a revamped Masque of the Red Death specifically), and d20 Modern/Future would be a nice selection to start with. Nice selection meaning nothing overlaps, and there's room to let authors run free with the settings that they're passionate about. Glancing at my d20 Dark Matter book, I see "Wolfgang Baur and Monte Cook" on the cover, so maybe WotC doesn't have sole ownership of that, I dunno. And yea, they can't support five settings when it seems like they can barely keep books going out the door for FR by itself... I know. But that's a soft problem, not a hard problem. WotC might be hurting financially, and on a short leash... but Hasbro has money to throw at things and once they're confident that WotC (A) has their finger on the pulse of gamers and (B) has the competence to make gamers happy, then the budget problem will evaporate. Unless Hasbro management has been struck stupid somewhere along the line, which seems unlikely. Money is money, and D&D has phenomenal revenue-generating potential. WotC just needs to open their eyes, or get out of the driver's seat so that someone can properly harness it.
On the selection of settings... it's not really about which settings are the most deserving. It's about which ones are the most distinct from each other while still being marketable. Dark Sun has to be in there, and Planescape should be, because these are the places where RSEs are the most permissible and least disruptive. I didn't look at 4e Dark Sun, but in 2e it was practically begging for big booms. Planescape (or Spelljammer, but I think Planescape might be more approachable for casual gamers) is big enough that big events are both easily-understandable/excusable and unlikely to have a negative impact. Masque of the Red Death is 1900-era Earth (or a new world, which could be a good move) and d20 Modern or Future moves into the future. "Covering the bases" so to speak.
GH and Mystara: I think a case could be made for Greyhawk and Mystara but I understand some peoples' fears that they're too similar to FR and would somehow compete with each other. They wouldn't, because they aren't really all that similar. The lack of new GH books is not compelling all the GH fans to buy every FR book that comes out... it's just hurting WotC's bottom line because they've flipped off a percentage of their customer base. GH fans might buy a few FR books here and there, but I'll venture a guess that most of them are thinking (A) FR is not GH so screw you, and (B) If I support FR then they're never going to consider reinstating GH so screw you. In both cases I think the outcome is "Hi Paizo, how you doin?"
Anyway, just my opinions, and not trying to be a jerk to anyone here. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 05:57:36
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I guess, for me, it comes down to this - for the first time in years I am enjoying playing in The Forgotten Realms, not just talking about it. For a lot of us here, it was like owning a new car but never driving it anywhere (in fear of getting it scratched).
But whats the point in having it if you can't take it for a spin? Those nicks and dents that you'll eventually get are all part of its personality, and 'badges of honor' for all the good times you had with it.
In other words, I want a great D&D setting, and FR can be that setting, then thats okay by me. I don't feel the same way I used to about it, but I feel just as strongly. I just have a different perspective now. I read something I don't like, I just go *meh* and move on... I don't form-up a lynching party and try to find the designer who wrote it.
And the sad part is, we have very little to go on right now about The Realms - we are all making assumptions. Way back in 1987, when I 1st heard about FR and how it was stealing the spotlight from my beloved GH, I hated it... sight unseen. I had to be forced into running a game there. This is the same thing - a lot of us are basing our dislike on what we haven't seen. At the end of the day, we have nothing but Ed Greenwood's word that 'something great is in the works'.
And that's good enough for me.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2015 05:58:52 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 08:23:54
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Fair, and food for thought.
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 08:33:49
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Seems FR in the 5E iteration (at least at this stage) is very much a pseudo-setting like the core setting of 4E and Nentir Vale as seen in the Conquest of Nerath board game map. The game map featured a mix of 4E locales implied in the 4E core books and adventures mixed with the names of classic D&D adventures.
This shouldn't come as a surprise as it gives Wizards more bang for their buck, they have a single line of products that ties together many of their older (sometimes defunct) product lines and classic adventure premises (FR setting, Greyhawk inspired theme, details on the organized play factions) within a new offering. This makes sense because it wouldn't serve them well to dilute the pool with too many settings of a similar mold (when WotC has barely gotten one setting off the ground for a 5E relaunch).
To this day it seems odd to me Wizards didn't integrate the core 4E setting with FR more strongly, but chose instead to develop a vague hodgepodge. As even its flagship setting struggles to get support, the only way Nentir Vale will get much further development and material is if Wizards folded into another setting.
Of note, Sasquatch Games Studio is the company formed by Rich Baker, Stephen Schubert, and David Noonan as their post-WotC side-project. This is another adventure set signed over for third party development. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 08:51:30
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Here's hoping it's got better bones than Tyranny of Dragons.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 21:08:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
He never wanted gods striding onstage fighting PCs or NPCs. Still doesn't - - and one of the things that pleases him about 5e is that increasingly deities are stepping back from mortals. Affecting them just as much, but using intermediaries more. (Or so he's been told the design approach is.)
And yet the end of the very first adventure path already has the possibility of the party fighting Tiamat (and not even an avatar, the full fledged deity). Way to got WotC! 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Why not take the best parts of D&D over the past 40 years and embrace it? I'm not saying change FR to fit them, but rather, modify (and update) them to fit FR.
Because this refitting takes away what makes them great and lessenes both settings.
It's one thing to decide that same stand-alone bits would be better served by being tacked on one of the big settings, they don't have much baggage to carry with them.
It's something different when trademarks of big setting are ripped from their setting and pushed into a different one.
What's next? Vecna fighting the Circle of Eight in Waterdeep? I mean many of those visited Toril one time or another, so why not have them moving their headquarter from the Flanaess to Faerun for good?
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just be glad that it seems The Realms (and D&D) are finally getting the focus they deserve. No more sharing face-time with a dozen other settings.
In my opinion, the Realms would be far better off if there were more settings on the menu.
I have to agree with Xae. Becomming the default setting for an edition is the worst that can happend to a setting. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 04 Jan 2015 21:22:25 |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 03:30:23
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I think it's good to be positive. And to look forward to things, get excited for what's coming...
However, the silence and broken promises from WOTC are a bit much.
And remember this, being the default setting in 3E didn't do Greyhawk as a setting any favors.
So while I'm glad 5E has not seen anything monumentally stupid as 4E stuff, they really haven't done that much we can judge them on.
As fans, we're still waiting to see their true colors.
Edit: 2 things I think WOTC needs real bad. 1. A communications person or team to talk with fans and say whats going ona dn get feedback. and 2. a Realms guru in charge like a story editor is on a tv writers room or like Bruce heard did overseeing Mystara back in the day. I would love that to be Ed. |
Edited by - hobbitfan on 05 Jan 2015 03:38:04 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 03:44:19
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Never did get into the Temple of Elemental evil much, before my time I think. Never could read through the entire Hommlet and Nulb sections, too boring. But if this is the stance Wizards is going to take, I hope I can look forward to an Against the Giants, Vault of the Drow etc. among other things.
Though frankly I wish they'd tap some of the old guard to craft something totally epic. There's Tethyamar that needs exploring or Shoonach or if we're going to be rocking the classics how bout setting Ed up doing a campaign starter area with the Haunted Halls like has been discussed a bit in the past. I'd love to see how the North handles a good old fashioned orc horde, like ahem, the one they're experiencing right now. That's a reset button for the entire Savage Frontier. Can't imagine much other than the three dwarf holds and maybe Silverymoon living through one of those. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2015 : 13:31:32
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ToEE is my all-time favorite pregen module. Maybe I am just looking at it with the rose-colored glasses of fond memory, but I've run it in the Realms (before I even knew The Realms), and had no problem. Homlett is SUPPOSED TO BE BORING - unlike FR, you are not supposed to spend days in town; GH was designed for players to want to leave the town as soon as possible. This is the one area they'd really have to address to make it feel like FR (just make the tavern keeper a level 18 ex-adventurer and you should be good).
quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
To this day it seems odd to me Wizards didn't integrate the core 4E setting with FR more strongly, but chose instead to develop a vague hodgepodge. As even its flagship setting struggles to get support, the only way Nentir Vale will get much further development and material is if Wizards folded into another setting.
Nentir Vale is a very good sub-setting, and had a campaign guide planned, but it was cancelled for some reason. I have 3 (4, if you count my hombrewed Realms) places in The Realms that Nentir Vale fits perfectly, depending upon your needs. FR is HUGE - the entirety of the NV setting fits between the High Forest and the High Moor, almost perfectly (you have to fudge the eastern NV mountains into a small range of hills, but it works). The only thing I greatly dislike is what they did with Hammerfast - a dwarven city with orcs in it. Its the Baffenburg fiasco all over again.
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
What's next? Vecna fighting the Circle of Eight in Waterdeep? I mean many of those visited Toril one time or another, so why not have them moving their headquarter from the Flanaess to Faerun for good?
Sorry, but this is awesome. I would love to see the circle of Eight meeting with the leaders of the Lord's Alliance, and Vecna attacking them all. I moved the Flanaess to the west of Faerûn, where Anchormé is, so that would be entirely possible. 
I'm a gamer. To me, 4e was the death of the Realms I love... but the Forgotten Realms became more of a intellectual thought-experiment in which people were aghast at any sort of 'contamination'. Now I can enjoy FR as a game setting without caring about what makes sense and what doesn't. Maybe its just me, but I think of FR as something new now. It will never be Old FR, but I can enjoy it for what it is.
If they do FR in 5e the way they did GH in 3e, then YES, I sadly agree with your point about it becoming the default (core) setting. Here's hoping they've learned a few lessons since then. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2015 13:35:34 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 18:08:52
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| 4e adventure The Elder Elemental Eye already has Tharizdun in the Realms, according to that module he had a cult in Chessenta in 1340s. In the adventure, the Voidharrow, the red ooze that is the source of the Abyssal plague, appears in a lost temple of Ghaunadaur in the Sunset Mountains. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 18:28:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
4e adventure The Elder Elemental Eye already has Tharizdun in the Realms, according to that module he had a cult in Chessenta in 1340s. In the adventure, the Voidharrow, the red ooze that is the source of the Abyssal plague, appears in a lost temple of Ghaunadaur in the Sunset Mountains.
I swear to Mary they better not make Tharizdun and Ghaunadaur the same being. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 18:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
4e adventure The Elder Elemental Eye already has Tharizdun in the Realms, according to that module he had a cult in Chessenta in 1340s. In the adventure, the Voidharrow, the red ooze that is the source of the Abyssal plague, appears in a lost temple of Ghaunadaur in the Sunset Mountains.
I swear to Mary they better not make Tharizdun and Ghaunadaur the same being.
No, the adventure says they are different beings, Ghaunadaur doesn't want to destroy everything.
Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle also has altars of evil archomentals, but nothing about Tharizdun. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 20:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
4e adventure The Elder Elemental Eye already has Tharizdun in the Realms, according to that module he had a cult in Chessenta in 1340s.
I might have to look into that adventure. I dislike bringing a Greyhawk power into the Realms, but it could be reinterpreted by turning Tharizdun into a multiworld "current face" of the Elder Elemental God.
Then, tie Entropy to Tharizdun. Tiamat supporting Entropy in the 1370s never sat well with me. If Tharizdun wants to destroy everything, that seems to fit well with Entropy.
Tiamat might observe that Entropy's priests aren't getting spells, conclude that Entropy isn't a real god, and see an opportunity to step in and gain a foothold in Chessenta. I think that basically follows the canon. The "difference" is that Tiamat is unaware of Entropy's deeper purpose.
For my South campaign, I've decided that Entropy is an umbral blot (ELH) and doesn't grant spells but is far more intelligent and powerful than a sphere of annihilation. This being the case (for me anyway) it's easy to see Entropy as a "sleeper" agent of Tharizdun (and thus the Elder Elemental God if we string these interpretations together).
The question of why the umbral blot is just "sitting there" and not devouring everything --not devouring anything, for that matter-- was an unsolved mystery for me. Having a master solves it.
Tiamat (I prefer Shar from a thematic point of view, but that's just me) can then quietly step in and grant spells to the priests of Entropy, turning them from a crazy but low-powered cult into a formidable church with a kinda terrifying agenda: join the church or be destroyed.
How are they formidable? Canon has already suggested that the church of Entropy and the Karanok family (deeply intertwined) have agents in cities all over Faerun, observing and abducting wizards, and that they have smaller "Entropies" or large spheres of annihilation in at least five manors. This means they're spreading out, and they're bringing controlled spheres of annihilation with them. I think most cities would prefer a visible Thayan enclave over an invisible Karanok infestation.
Canon suggests that this is starting in the 1370s, but I would argue that it's only becoming known at that point and in fact started earlier, and is more developed at any given point in time than anyone outside the family realizes. Even starting in the 1370s though, fast-forwarding to 5e gives them over 100 years to create/summon/grow more spheres and infiltrate more cities. Pick a city, any city... the Karanoks are there if you want them to be.
Anyway, this offers some grassroots support for the Elder Elemental God (aka Tharizdun) being a growing threat in Faerun. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 06 Jan 2015 20:22:46 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 21:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
4e adventure The Elder Elemental Eye already has Tharizdun in the Realms, according to that module he had a cult in Chessenta in 1340s.
I might have to look into that adventure. I dislike bringing a Greyhawk power into the Realms, but it could be reinterpreted by turning Tharizdun into a multiworld "current face" of the Elder Elemental God.
Then, tie Entropy to Tharizdun. Tiamat supporting Entropy in the 1370s never sat well with me. If Tharizdun wants to destroy everything, that seems to fit well with Entropy.
Tiamat might observe that Entropy's priests aren't getting spells, conclude that Entropy isn't a real god, and see an opportunity to step in and gain a foothold in Chessenta. I think that basically follows the canon. The "difference" is that Tiamat is unaware of Entropy's deeper purpose.
For my South campaign, I've decided that Entropy is an umbral blot (ELH) and doesn't grant spells but is far more intelligent and powerful than a sphere of annihilation. This being the case (for me anyway) it's easy to see Entropy as a "sleeper" agent of Tharizdun (and thus the Elder Elemental God if we string these interpretations together).
The question of why the umbral blot is just "sitting there" and not devouring everything --not devouring anything, for that matter-- was an unsolved mystery for me. Having a master solves it.
Tiamat (I prefer Shar from a thematic point of view, but that's just me) can then quietly step in and grant spells to the priests of Entropy, turning them from a crazy but low-powered cult into a formidable church with a kinda terrifying agenda: join the church or be destroyed.
How are they formidable? Canon has already suggested that the church of Entropy and the Karanok family (deeply intertwined) have agents in cities all over Faerun, observing and abducting wizards, and that they have smaller "Entropies" or large spheres of annihilation in at least five manors. This means they're spreading out, and they're bringing controlled spheres of annihilation with them. I think most cities would prefer a visible Thayan enclave over an invisible Karanok infestation.
Canon suggests that this is starting in the 1370s, but I would argue that it's only becoming known at that point and in fact started earlier, and is more developed at any given point in time than anyone outside the family realizes. Even starting in the 1370s though, fast-forwarding to 5e gives them over 100 years to create/summon/grow more spheres and infiltrate more cities. Pick a city, any city... the Karanoks are there if you want them to be.
Anyway, this offers some grassroots support for the Elder Elemental God (aka Tharizdun) being a growing threat in Faerun.
Agreed, I've always had Entropy as an umbral blot (blackball), Tiamat never made much sense, maybe if you change Tiamat into a primordial from Babylonian mythology, even then it's a force of creation, not destruction.
In Mystara, umbral blots are servants of the Old Ones, I guess Tharizdun could be similar to them. Or Shar, tough not that 3e/4e overexposed Shar. |
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Edited by - Marc on 06 Jan 2015 21:08:54 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 21:14:46
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
4e adventure The Elder Elemental Eye already has Tharizdun in the Realms, according to that module he had a cult in Chessenta in 1340s.
I might have to look into that adventure. I dislike bringing a Greyhawk power into the Realms, but it could be reinterpreted by turning Tharizdun into a multiworld "current face" of the Elder Elemental God.
Then, tie Entropy to Tharizdun. Tiamat supporting Entropy in the 1370s never sat well with me. If Tharizdun wants to destroy everything, that seems to fit well with Entropy.
Tiamat might observe that Entropy's priests aren't getting spells, conclude that Entropy isn't a real god, and see an opportunity to step in and gain a foothold in Chessenta. I think that basically follows the canon. The "difference" is that Tiamat is unaware of Entropy's deeper purpose.
For my South campaign, I've decided that Entropy is an umbral blot (ELH) and doesn't grant spells but is far more intelligent and powerful than a sphere of annihilation. This being the case (for me anyway) it's easy to see Entropy as a "sleeper" agent of Tharizdun (and thus the Elder Elemental God if we string these interpretations together).
The question of why the umbral blot is just "sitting there" and not devouring everything --not devouring anything, for that matter-- was an unsolved mystery for me. Having a master solves it.
Tiamat (I prefer Shar from a thematic point of view, but that's just me) can then quietly step in and grant spells to the priests of Entropy, turning them from a crazy but low-powered cult into a formidable church with a kinda terrifying agenda: join the church or be destroyed.
How are they formidable? Canon has already suggested that the church of Entropy and the Karanok family (deeply intertwined) have agents in cities all over Faerun, observing and abducting wizards, and that they have smaller "Entropies" or large spheres of annihilation in at least five manors. This means they're spreading out, and they're bringing controlled spheres of annihilation with them. I think most cities would prefer a visible Thayan enclave over an invisible Karanok infestation.
Canon suggests that this is starting in the 1370s, but I would argue that it's only becoming known at that point and in fact started earlier, and is more developed at any given point in time than anyone outside the family realizes. Even starting in the 1370s though, fast-forwarding to 5e gives them over 100 years to create/summon/grow more spheres and infiltrate more cities. Pick a city, any city... the Karanoks are there if you want them to be.
Anyway, this offers some grassroots support for the Elder Elemental God (aka Tharizdun) being a growing threat in Faerun.
I would rather see the return of Moander. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 21:19:53
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Well, for me Shade is still in the Plane of Shadow and the Shadow Weave is still a secret, and almost nobody knows about the Monks of the Dark Moon, and her temples and shrines are disguised, so Shar is an unknown threat. Which makes her useful.
But yea, I'm sure some people will roll their eyes at any mention of Shar. Not my fault if they accepted her being stupidly obvious and completely out of character. *whistles a jaunty tune*
It's great to know that someone else had the same thought about the umbral blot, though! High-five. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 21:38:19
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Hm. Moander. Interesting. Nothing elemental about him (it, really), but I like him from the heartless evil angle. He seems to have both deception (the rotting from within, being invisible from the outside) and raw "I don't even care if you see me coming" power (Moander's Road and his behavior in direct confrontations). Having both of these things would make him pretty scary in the right authors' hands.
I also like Moander because he's a Realms god with some unique character instead of an outsider that we don't know or care about.
Incidentally, I don't get the attachment of "elemental" and "evil" anyway. Elementals are neutral. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 21:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Hm. Moander. Interesting. Nothing elemental about him (it, really), but I like him from the heartless evil angle. He seems to have both deception (the rotting from within, being invisible from the outside) and raw "I don't even care if you see me coming" power (Moander's Road and his behavior in direct confrontations). Having both of these things would make him pretty scary in the right authors' hands.
I also like Moander because he's a Realms god with some unique character instead of an outsider that we don't know or care about.
Incidentally, I don't get the attachment of "elemental" and "evil" anyway. Elementals are neutral.
I like Moander because of his desire to consume and destroy. I would rather the authors use what's already there instead of introducing another being. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
Edited by - Shadowsoul on 06 Jan 2015 22:55:28 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 21:58:42
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I agree with that.
I doubt WotC sees it our way, though. I predict that "Elemental evil" was chosen to evoke the classic adventure, which happens to not be Realmsian in origin. So we get GH in FR.
Not that that has to be a bad thing... we'll see how they (Sasquatch?) execute it. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 06 Jan 2015 21:59:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2015 : 23:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
Incidentally, I don't get the attachment of "elemental" and "evil" anyway. Elementals are neutral.
I very much concur, with this. Never got the concept of evil elemental powers, though I know they exist... And even though we have evil elemental powers, I can't say I recall hearing about good ones. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 00:40:02
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Good counterparts exist, at least for the archomentals --Entemoch is the good version of Ogremoch if I remember right-- but they are not talked about as much as the evil ones... which is to say they're barely ever mentioned at all. Some of them are named in an article in Dragon #347... which contains a relevant phrase: "The evil god known as the Elder Elemental Eye claims to have sired most of the Elemental Princes of Evil, making them strange siblings indeed. Scholars of ancient religions speculate that this god is actually the ancient evil, Tharizdun (Complete Divine, 123)."
The article also describes Akadi, Grumbar, Istishia, and Kossuth as "the greater elemental gods" and places them above the archomentals. They "only involve themselves when one side threatens to gain too much influence over its respective plane."
Why does neutrality have to be a balance of good and evil? Elementals are not written as philosophical beings, nor are they described as valuing free choice or including both yin and yang, or anything like that. It doesn't make sense for elementals to embody both good and evil.
It makes much more sense for them to be completely unconcerned with questions of morality.
Meh. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 00:54:44
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I know there are certain kinds of elementals that are said to have been tainted by evil.
You never hear about things being "tainted" by good, do you? |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2015 : 01:06:12
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| If someone writes a planar setting which decently describes evil as natural and beautiful, and good as a hideous insidious corrupting influence, I will totally play it. |
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Topic |
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Wizards blending Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms.
