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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 13:32:15
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For what its worth - I think the Authors may have been 'taken aback' a bit by anything Eric (or other gurus) came up with, and I think the WotC guys simply honored their wishes. I know absolutely nothing about this point - just a feeling I get from everything being said, and knowing from personal experience how 'artists' can be.
Basically, when it comes right down to it, 'creative types' do not like to be given rules - they want the freedom to express themselves completely in the way they want. Now, IMO, writers in a shared-world SHOULDN'T feel that way... but they do.
So what Eric wrote (and others said) may have made perfect sense and had an extreme logic to it from a past-lore standpoint, the writers (and perhaps in-house guys) did not want to feel 'constrained' by all of that. I hope I am wrong about this, because now we are going right back to what forced the 4eFR changes upon us in the first place.
Its great to give artists freedom, but when their freedom cost you fans, you can't eat self-satisfaction. Consistency is key in a shared world; if you don't get that, perhaps you shouldn't be writing in one.
And this whole thing reminds me of a recent conversation with Eric Boyd about Highstar lake and The High Moor. My version was 'much cooler' (he even acknowledged that that might have been so), but it didn't fit past lore. I so desperately wanted to improve it (as an artist, I feel thats my obligation), but in the end he was right - if we just start stomping all over past lore to improve it, where does that end? (Not that I did any stomping - I merely 'reinterpreted' how it should sit on the Moor). If we went around tossing all our homdbrew 'kewl' ideas into the Realms just because we think they are better, you know what we end up with? The mess that was 4e (not knocking the individual bits of lore or designers, just the utter chaos of it all - it was 'all over the place', with no focus or direction).
And, of course, in MY (Misbegotten) Realms, it will still be MUCH cooler.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2014 : 20:19:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And, of course, in MY (Misbegotten) Realms, it will still be MUCH cooler.
Ooh, that sounds like a great topic for dazzler's Alternate Dimensions project!
quote:
It hailed from a time not recorded, in lands no longer on any map, lived out by souls whose deeds have since been disavowed by the greatest sages, concocted through the revisionist meanderings of one wayward cartogropher.
'Twas . . . THE MISBEGOTTEN REALMS™!"
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 15:18:45
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Thanks.
Someday, when Eric unchains me from my desk (and I get to see the sun again)*, I will get back to it. Its not just the maps - which I love doing - I also have a complete backstory for the world itself, and heavily merged all the lore together. Its truly a work of art (the campaign, not necessarily the map, which is still 'borrowed art').
Basically, its the Planet Arium (I love puns) in the Amalgam system (there are several other 'merged worlds' there, including an Abeir/Athas planet). The weird part is that it exists in the same universe as the rest of D&D, so the beings of this system have 'dopplegangers' of themselves elsewhere in the multiverse (although the people from those other worlds consider the folks of this crystal sphere to be the 'knock-offs'). Very few (permanent) planer connections exist (NONE to other prime worlds), and Spelljammers tend to avoid it (they find if very disconcerting). Upon meeting his 'double', FR's Elminster merely commented, "I was unimpressed".
NOTHING is too far-fetched, and everything has been woven together, from the Time War - when 'The Doctor' posed as the Chronomancer for several centuries in order to defeat the Dalekforged (cyborgs created by the Cross-time Kangs) - to the the 'Vamps vs lycans' trope, to an ancient 'Sundering' (God war) that started at the beginning of time (when the deities had to fight together {at first} against hordes of Lovecraftian horrors) and destroyed 'The First (True) World' - which continues to this day, but who's sides are now made up of many and varied 'cliques' (pantheons).
But wait! There's more! If you act now you get not one but TWO campaign settings! I even have a future history to go with it, wherein some 'cosmic occurrence' has merged all the Crystal spheres into one, and Dark Vader (a descendent of Sauron) and his army of Cyberclones fights the last vestiges of the Federation (Republic), and only Babylon Five (with its ragtag fleet and Battlestar) can possibly save them all!
Crap... forgot to take my meds again... 
*Just joking. It is a pleasure working with the man. I am trading my (boring) retirement for loads of cool Realmslore, so it is well worth whatever small contribution I am making.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Dec 2014 21:52:50 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2014 : 23:48:53
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Just took the time to skim this interview. It's hilarious and that's not a knock against Chris Perkins or Wizards. They were operating under a different business plan for 4E and that didn't work, so they have to change gears for 5E and everyone is just following the script.
This bit from the Chris Perkins was particularly amusing:
quote:
"We know that every Realms fan has favourite characters, conflicts, and moments in history. We didn’t want to undo or overwrite something that might be a fan’s favourite part of the setting. Our guiding principle is to embrace the past and not pass judgment or rewrite history."
Me thinks it's a bit late to not want to:
"...undo or overwrite something...": The Old Empires, Halruaa, Lantan, Nimbral, parts of Chult, Evermeet, Vilhon Reach, the Shaar, the Great Rift, Maztica, did I miss any?
"...embrace the past...": Quick, Time Jump away before the past catches up to us!
"...not pass judgement...": Slaying of holy cows, kill them and take their stuff, clearing away the baggage for new players, no more stories to tell in the Realms, etc.
Wizards meet the 4E Transition, 4E Transition meet Wizards.
Hi, you look familiar, have we met before.
I don't believe we have, I must have one of those faces.
quote:
"The time jump that accompanied the Spellplague allowed us to tell some interesting stories, such as Drizzt Do’Urden’s pain and isolation in the wake of losing his beloved companions. Fortunately, in a magical world, it’s possible to restore that which was lost. I liked how R. A. Salvatore’s The Companions handled the return of Bruenor, Wulfgar, Regis, and Cattie-brie. Jim Zub’s new Legends of Baldur’s Gate comic series brilliantly tackles the return of Minsc and Boo. Time has also allowed us to revive the Harpers, the Zhentarim, and other popular elements of the Forgotten Realms setting. Other familiar faces will undoubtedly return as well."
Emphasis mine.
Usually bringing things full circle is a good and clever thing. This is just ridiculous. It's cutting off your nose out of misplaced frantic madness then getting plastic surgery to restore a facsimile in the hopes no one really notices. Except you've been interacting with people for 5 to 6 years trying to sell them on your novel technique to clearing your sinuses.
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The interviewer pointed out the (supposedly unpopular) trend of setting reboots or re-imaginings for some of the most popular shared fiction worlds (all of them more popular than the Realms and that's not a rib at the Realms, just reality).
I say supposedly unpopular because those reboots often led to record setting premiers (or will soon enough) and fans are eating it up with the doors opening to more fans and wider popularity than before.
The Realms will fall on the wrong side of this movement by bucking the reboot trend. These reboots are an unfortunate (and sometimes awkward) necessity to modernize these settings for a wider audience. Some of these properties haven't had anything fresh added to them since the 80s or earlier and include all the perspectives and social norms of those eras. Everyone is getting their growing pains over with now while everyone is doing it, grabbing as many fans as they can before everyone settles back down.
The Realms tried to get on the re-imagining bandwagon with the Spellplague and jumping the century, but what it did was taken an prospective exclusivity route, which moves existing IP aspects beyond reach of the current iteration. The only way to include many aspects from the old version is to resort to magical shenanigans and time-traveling techniques, where we're reaching a saturation point and moving into jarring territory. If every character is a time-traveler, I thought we were playing D&D and not some off-brand Doctor Who.
A full reboot takes a retroactive inclusivity approach, which moves the audience entry point to an earlier time with the existing IP aspects becomes part of an indeterminate future where they may likely reappear, perhaps the same or perhaps with some alterations, but they can still be easily included in the regular day-to-day progression.
When the Realms do go through their full reboot, it will be a latecomer amongst its competitors. By then Wizards cannot be sure if another rival setting covering the same concepts hasn't appeared in a more popular medium and presentation, taking further attention away from their work. That may have already happened as Warcraft is filming its big-budget movie. If Golarion gets a movie before the Realms, its relevancy will diminish further.
The Realms may not even be a contender at that point as its own the continued re-imagining complications (baggage) adds additional layers of confusion, diluting whatever coherency it had before.
We are already well on our way towards this dilution with the returning of prior era characters in novels and even in comics, where D&D presence has not been as steady as with novels. The Lords of Waterdeep boardgame (being a well regarded game breaking into an audience the Realms had not made as much headway into before) relied mostly on the prior era lords of Waterdeep characters.
Wizards wasn't kidding when they said fans didn't think they were the best stewards of this brand. Where Wizard has it wrong is to believe they've made superior plans to address the issues. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 24 Dec 2014 23:49:28 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 00:12:46
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IMHO, WotC is against the idea of a reboot mostly because part of the Drizzt (or other) novel-line. All the ''respect to the previous lore'' thingy is just empty words IMO, otherwise all the pointless destruction/changes/ridiculous cheesy RSEs would have never happened (also, they already rebooted Dark Sun, so...).
But at this point, reboot via random magical thing (''Ao did it'') or ''honest'' reboot are the same to me, as long as we actually get to see all that was lost restored. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Dec 2014 00:14:20 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 01:55:12
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| Which is silly because the superhero characters from the Big 2 comicbook publishers are up to 75 years old (and most others reaching their 50th anniversary) with countless more material (more art, more everything) written about them. They still got rebooted. DC did a hard reboot to mixed results. Marvel continues with their rolling continuity, which may present a model for Wizards to have their cake and eat it too. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 02:52:00
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| Forgive my ignorance, but what did Marvel do? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 03:38:20
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| Forgotten Realms/Quantum Leap?! |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 05:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Forgive my ignorance, but what did Marvel do?
It wasn't any specific event or reboot, but a branding style known as Marvel NOW! that restarted the numbering with new creative teams and a pseudo-reintroduction of the character or team.
This was also the refresh point for some characters, notably the switch of Ms. Marvel to Captain Marvel, and the start of the new Ms. Marvel taking over the old title, etc. It is also a reason to given some of the characters more modern costumes, mostly more inline with the cinematic universe. In general, that involved less spandex all around.
The purpose was probably to give new readers, and lapsed readers, a good entry point to get back into comics. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 25 Dec 2014 05:05:08 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 11:26:12
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| Thank you. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 16:56:54
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| How about this - Lets see what they do. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 17:27:13
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| As long as they do something of substance with the Realms. As Dark Wizard said, they don't have unlimited time and there are competing alternatives out there, while WotC is cutting published FR material more and more (to the point where their yearly FR releases plan mostly consists of Drizzt novels and like 2 generic adventure paths). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2014 : 22:05:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
How about this - Lets see what they do.
True, we haven't seen the full extent of their 5E plans, and the upcoming releases may push Wizards' game (as in whole operation) up another notch. This is something I've always felt Wizards had the best chance to pull off out of all the tabletop RPG companies, mostly because they're at least nominally backed by a relative titan in the toy industry.
Still, what they have shown us tells us a lot and it has been somewhat meek even by industry standards. This year was the 40th anniversary of D&D and the premier of a new edition. There really should have been an exponentially larger bang associated with this momentous set of events. GenCon should have almost been D&D-Con given the significance of this year.
I don't know, maybe instead of just interviews with game designers and TSR alumni, maybe reach out to gamers working in the video game industry (games like WoW, FF, LoL, DA, etc. or associated companies, including the people at places like Obsidian, where they've shown themselves gaming). Reach out more towards writers outside of WotC's network, similar to Mark Zug who is writing the Minsc comic speaking about the influences of D&D on his career, but how about creative people WotC doesn't have on an actual job/assignment right now. Show the impact of D&D beyond those immediately working for you (even if the interviewee is compensated).
What about celebrities, hire them to play a game with other celebrities and film it like Tabletop with Wil Wheaton. The one episode of Tabletop featuring an RPG was Green Ronin's Dragon AGE, WotC should have paid for a special episode featuring D&D. Find ways to get the word out there beyond the typical tabletop RPG gaming circles.
I don't even recall 5E getting animated shorts like 4E had. A change of pace would have been to have a few shorts done in a more serious and cool (actually cool, now "4E cool") manner to show the change in attitude from irreverent (4th wall breaking) to getting down to the roots of gaming (fighting evil and being heroes).
Maybe have each member of the party premier in their own minutes long vignette, the design of the character is drawn from a prior edition of D&D (Original or BECMI, 1E, 2E, 3E, 4E, even the D&D cartoon) but updated. Their mini adventures eventually draws them together into a big finale where they team up in the 5E era to defeat a shared villain (drawn from a classic D&D adventure). They win and strike the dynamic party pose, only to be interrupted by a looming evil arriving to challenge them. One of the characters says something witty and we break away into the first steps towards action. Maybe a bit cheesy, but done well it could really inspire people and show the history of the game. This stuff writes itself.
The D&D aspects might enter in with the narrator doubling as a disembodied DM pausing at intervals with a gaming or skill decision. The character makes a choice in character and the effect is visualized as the typical sparkling magical effect with stylized die rolls and attributes incorporated into the design.
The Sundering CGI intro was nice, but it was all set up and no execution and it featured a new character absolutely no one knew anything about or cared about. Plus he was older and a passive quest giver. If anyone pays attention to video game trailers, the focus is usually on the possible player avatars, show people what they can be and become. That is unless you can hire the voice talent and likeness of Kevin Spacey, but that's outside of the budgets of most games save for quadruple-A-level mega-franchises. |
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2015 : 14:14:59
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The fundamental problem with your ideas, Dark Wizard, is that you're making an assumption that WotC wants to spend money promoting D&D.
Remember, they're owned by Hasbro. Hasbro doesn't care about ongoing support, per se; they're looking for a major score from a movie with its spin-off products and, until that happens, I suspect that they're just pumping in enough support to keep the D&D brand alive. Of course, anyone who disputes this assessment will correctly point out that there is no publicly available evidence to support my assertions but look at these facts:
- D&D has gone from having a SVP or similar title as its head in the person of Bill Slavicsek to Mike Mearls carrying the title of senior manager (although titles at WotC seem to change a few times a year). In corporate-speak, that's a major downgrading of the business unit.
- The design and development team numbers about 10 people. The brand team seems to be running around with 6-8 people.
- There was absolutely no effort made to try and turn the 40th anniversary into something. Compare that to the 25th anniversary where, inter alia, we got some really nice reprints in a silver case.
- Novels are just about dead. I think there are three authors working on FR right now. That's unprecedented!
In short, D&D is on life support pending the resolution of the movie rights issue.
Oh, and I like your ideas, Dark Wizard. I wish WotC was private again so we could have seen some or all of the things you suggest. |
Regards
NXB |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2015 : 21:42:35
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I think we're all quite aware of the shrinkage in the 5E team compared to past D&D teams. WotC seems ever more focused on Magic, understandable given it has always outperformed the other product lines of Wizards (except perhaps for a short time when they had the Pokemon license at the height of that wave). It's an unpopular thing to say, but I think 4E did much more damage to the D&D brand than anyone wants to admit. Not only did it deliver a significant segment of the 3E fan base to a former associate company turned competitor (now turned industry leader); it also showed to Hasbro that D&D can't breakthrough like its other product lines. Not to say D&D cannot ever breakthrough, but corporations are generally risk adverse and 4E overreached in the one good chance it had to show its potential. The retraction in production for the comparably conservative 5E roll-out is likely the result of this.
The 4E transition squandered their budget by making mildly amusing commercials done in an irreverent manner that tried to be revolutionary for a 35 year old product. RPGs and IP aren't technology, they don't become obsolete in quite the same way. Instead of having fun with D&D, they made fun of D&D. How much more successful would 4E have been had the tone they tried to sell it with was in cooperation with its respectable age and history instead of seeking to throw off its old features using references only regular players would understand anyway.
Granted movies seem to be the primary way for IP to reach the next level, but apart from that, a few digital animated shorts probably won't break the bank (and not tied up in litigation as far as I know). They could solidify D&D's presence on the net. That would be something no other RPG or tabletop game company has and something all tabletop RPGs are quite weak at.
If Hasbro seeks to keep the brand alive by spending no money, that's their prerogative, but this isn't the 80s when there was no real competition. Not only is D&D competing with other pen & paper games in the form of traditional D&D-like RPGs (PFRPG, Numenera/Cypher, 13th Age/Archmage), but also truly 'revolutionary' RPGs like Fate, Fiasco, FFG's Star Wars line (any well-produced game that uses an entirely different engine than d20 derivatives) and even boardgames with RPG features; they're actually all contending with the titans of the video game industry where even the most modest game (indeed even indie games) will trounce any tabletop game in terms of multi-media coverage.
Leave D&D to simmer for too long with a shoe-string budget or inappropriate advertising, especially the novels, and Hasbro might find their brand worthless despite preceding the new hot fantasy franchise by decades. Look at what happened to Disney's John Carter (of Mars), a venerable pulp sci-fi IP that was a foundational source for countless other IPs (including D&D), but despite the big budget movie, its poor marketing sunk it before it could regain its space in the cultural consciousness.
Look at other IP like DC and Marvel, who are not only into movies, but TV animation, live action TV, video games, etc. We've suffered through a lot of poor material on those channels, but they keep going at it and when a great TV show like Batman the Animated Series comes out, it becomes an icon for a generation. Look at how the Arkham Asylum games have carved out its space in the video game market. Much the same way the Infinity Engine games defined Western CRPGs for a generation and have the longevity to be released on tablets. The games uplifted the name Baldur's Gate amongst an audience wider than just tabletop RPGs, they were important enough that the city and characters were featured in the Sundering adventures, and Minsc being only a sidekick character in the games has his own comic now. How many D&D characters not created for comics can say that (aside from cameos by Elminster and the like)? Probably only Drizzt, who gained his popularity through novels, another media avenue apart from RPGs.
Wizards and Hasbro could be doing a lot with D&D that doesn't involve movies or spending money on advertising. |
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Chris Perkins Realms interview at Den of the Geek
