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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 05:40:07
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There's got to be something out there that holds the secrets to ancient Dwarven magic. The fabled Dwarven Rune magic that helped them overthrow the Giants way back in the the Dawn Age. Comments?
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 13:31:30
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Nether Scrolls. If hammered into solid metal plates as a part of operating a Forge engine, perhaps.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 15:42:10
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Well...the dwarves and the giants both used it and its magic was divine in nature, so I'd say it's primarily passed down by priests who gain access to it from the Mordinsamman or the Ordning if they themselves don't learn it from a more senior priest.
I usually think of oral traditions when I think of dwarves and giants rather than repositories of knowledge. I suppose there might be a grand tome of runecasting but I imagine most copies were lost during the many falls of ancient dwarf and giant civilisations. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 08 Dec 2014 15:42:44 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 17:12:36
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Nether Scrolls. If hammered into solid metal plates as a part of operating a Forge engine, perhaps.
Per an old document squirreled away in a forgotten corner of the Wizards website, the dwarves were not even able to see the Nether Scrolls -- they were presented to the dwarves, but the dwarves saw nothing.
This is a myth and thus could be wrong... But at that time (2E), the core rules prohibited dwarven arcane casters, and dwarves had difficulty using a lot of magical items. Though there were some exceptions in FR lore, overall, FR dwarves had those same restrictions. So this myth that we were provided matched the rules as they existed at that time.
Page 11 of FR11 Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Most often, dwarves write on flat stones, known as #145;runestones.#146; A typical runestone is flat and circular or diamond-shaped, about an inch thick, and of a hard, durable rock. One or both faces of the stone are inscribed with Dethek runes in a ring or spiral around the edge.
Runestones are usually read from the outer edge to the center along the spiral. This spiral encircles an identifying rune or picture, such as a clan mark or personal rune. Occasionally, runestones have been made of metal, but only the finest metals of the most pure and perfect manufacture will do.
So I would assume that any secret dwarven rune lore would be carved on these runestones somewhere, and that the stones were either destroyed or otherwise rendered inaccessible.
A fun thought occurs to me, wholly unsupported by any Realmslore that I can think of, at the moment: Perhaps the dwarves had their own Sundering moment.
Perhaps they came together for some collective working of great magic, and it had unforeseen and tragic consequences. Shamed by their actions, the dwarven elders of the time swore off the use of magic -- or maybe it was even forbidden by Moradin. In time, their opposition to the use of magic became so ingrained that it impacted their use of it. Only rare exceptions were able to (or allowed to) overcome this, at least until the Thunder Blessing came and Moradin returned the gift of magic to his people.
In canon, the only information we have about the Thunder Blessing is that it increased the dwarven birthrate. Dwarves suddenly using magic was another of the many things that changed with 3E but was not explained -- but the Thunder Blessing would be a great explanation for it.
So if we assume that dwarves being able to use magic again is connected to the Thunder Blessing, this theoretical dwarfpocalypse could explain how dwarves had previously used, but apparently lost, their ability to use arcane magic. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 17:14:49
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| 'Dwarfpocalypse' made me smile. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 19:56:06
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
For me the really powerful magic lies not in spells but in the ability to mould magic on the fly. Take the various elements of magic and weave them together into a complex whole that allows you to do whatever possible (determine by your skill and imagination).
To the elves this was called High Magic
High Magic mostly consists of rituals. The very name doesn't imply great flexibility.
quote:
and they represented it with song and rituals involving many people (although i dont make it exclusively elven, merely the humans lacked the time and patience to master it so they deemed it not possible for them to learn).
All sources called it exclusively Elven.
It's based on elven "connection with the world" in particular, and their nature as magical creatures in general. Kind of like reaching to psionics from the opposite side.
Just like dragonmagic is based on reducing complexity in favor of sheer power throughput that only dragons can provide.
It's not like there aren't universal paths in Multiverse. Including, BTW, Athasian psionic enchantments (based on transformation of the spellcaster into a living artifact with specific properties).
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Nether Scrolls. If hammered into solid metal plates as a part of operating a Forge engine, perhaps.
Per an old document squirreled away in a forgotten corner of the Wizards website, the dwarves were not even able to see the Nether Scrolls -- they were presented to the dwarves, but the dwarves saw nothing.
This is a myth and thus could be wrong... But at that time (2E), the core rules prohibited dwarven arcane casters
My point is, the Golden Skins are not only interactive in the immediate sense - they were capable of providing lore on High Magic when transformed appropriately. Who knows how else they can be adapted?..
And since Forges are the most powerful magic available to mortal dwarves, a High Priest turning the full set of scrolls into runestone(s) in the middle of an already powered Forge is their best chance.
quote:
A fun thought occurs to me, wholly unsupported by any Realmslore that I can think of, at the moment: [...]
Perhaps they came together for some collective working of great magic, and it had unforeseen and tragic consequences. Shamed by their actions, the dwarven elders of the time swore off the use of magic -- or maybe it was even forbidden by Moradin
They would also convey the warning to the future generations. And we know of only one episode in Dwarven history that's both big enough and ugly enough... and is counted among the causes of their decline... The Spawn Wars.
quote:
Dwarves suddenly using magic was another of the many things that changed with 3E but was not explained -- but the Thunder Blessing would be a great explanation for it.
Good point. BTW, and was the change as such even mentioned? And how many dwarven arcanists are there in canon? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 20:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Dwarves suddenly using magic was another of the many things that changed with 3E but was not explained -- but the Thunder Blessing would be a great explanation for it.
Good point. BTW, and was the change as such even mentioned? And how many dwarven arcanists are there in canon?
It was utterly and thoroughly ignored. One day, dwarves couldn't be wizards and magical items they wielded had a chance of failure. The next day, dwarves had the same access to magic as any other race.
Of course, most of the changes from the 2E-3E transition were similarly unaddressed. If they were mentioned, it was usually "it was always like this, but no one knew!"
As for dwarven arcanists, I think there were only a couple of them named, before 3E, and there were passing references to a couple of others -- mostly long-dead ones. In Undermountain's Lost Level, it's possible for a person to be transformed into a dwarf, and retain their previous class -- which could allow for a dwarven wizard. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Dec 2014 21:13:33 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 23:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Nether Scrolls. If hammered into solid metal plates as a part of operating a Forge engine, perhaps.
Per an old document squirreled away in a forgotten corner of the Wizards website, the dwarves were not even able to see the Nether Scrolls -- they were presented to the dwarves, but the dwarves saw nothing.
This is a myth and thus could be wrong... But at that time (2E), the core rules prohibited dwarven arcane casters, and dwarves had difficulty using a lot of magical items. Though there were some exceptions in FR lore, overall, FR dwarves had those same restrictions. So this myth that we were provided matched the rules as they existed at that time.
Page 11 of FR11 Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Most often, dwarves write on flat stones, known as #145;runestones.#146; A typical runestone is flat and circular or diamond-shaped, about an inch thick, and of a hard, durable rock. One or both faces of the stone are inscribed with Dethek runes in a ring or spiral around the edge.
Runestones are usually read from the outer edge to the center along the spiral. This spiral encircles an identifying rune or picture, such as a clan mark or personal rune. Occasionally, runestones have been made of metal, but only the finest metals of the most pure and perfect manufacture will do.
So I would assume that any secret dwarven rune lore would be carved on these runestones somewhere, and that the stones were either destroyed or otherwise rendered inaccessible.
A fun thought occurs to me, wholly unsupported by any Realmslore that I can think of, at the moment: Perhaps the dwarves had their own Sundering moment.
Perhaps they came together for some collective working of great magic, and it had unforeseen and tragic consequences. Shamed by their actions, the dwarven elders of the time swore off the use of magic -- or maybe it was even forbidden by Moradin. In time, their opposition to the use of magic became so ingrained that it impacted their use of it. Only rare exceptions were able to (or allowed to) overcome this, at least until the Thunder Blessing came and Moradin returned the gift of magic to his people.
In canon, the only information we have about the Thunder Blessing is that it increased the dwarven birthrate. Dwarves suddenly using magic was another of the many things that changed with 3E but was not explained -- but the Thunder Blessing would be a great explanation for it.
So if we assume that dwarves being able to use magic again is connected to the Thunder Blessing, this theoretical dwarfpocalypse could explain how dwarves had previously used, but apparently lost, their ability to use arcane magic.
Really good stuff Wooly, honestly I think there's is enough framework to explore for atleast trilogy of novels IMO. Introduce a new cast of Dwarven heroes into the new realms , perhaps with a quest to rediscover the secretes of ancient dwarven rune magic....along the way all the unexplained lore from the Dawn ages could be revealed, with some surprising twists along the way of course.
Rchard LEE Byers...Richard Baker...RA Salvatore, I hope you're reading this. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2014 : 23:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Nether Scrolls. If hammered into solid metal plates as a part of operating a Forge engine, perhaps.
Per an old document squirreled away in a forgotten corner of the Wizards website, the dwarves were not even able to see the Nether Scrolls -- they were presented to the dwarves, but the dwarves saw nothing.
This is a myth and thus could be wrong... But at that time (2E), the core rules prohibited dwarven arcane casters, and dwarves had difficulty using a lot of magical items. Though there were some exceptions in FR lore, overall, FR dwarves had those same restrictions. So this myth that we were provided matched the rules as they existed at that time.
Page 11 of FR11 Dwarves Deep says:
quote:
Most often, dwarves write on flat stones, known as #145;runestones.#146; A typical runestone is flat and circular or diamond-shaped, about an inch thick, and of a hard, durable rock. One or both faces of the stone are inscribed with Dethek runes in a ring or spiral around the edge.
Runestones are usually read from the outer edge to the center along the spiral. This spiral encircles an identifying rune or picture, such as a clan mark or personal rune. Occasionally, runestones have been made of metal, but only the finest metals of the most pure and perfect manufacture will do.
So I would assume that any secret dwarven rune lore would be carved on these runestones somewhere, and that the stones were either destroyed or otherwise rendered inaccessible.
A fun thought occurs to me, wholly unsupported by any Realmslore that I can think of, at the moment: Perhaps the dwarves had their own Sundering moment.
Perhaps they came together for some collective working of great magic, and it had unforeseen and tragic consequences. Shamed by their actions, the dwarven elders of the time swore off the use of magic -- or maybe it was even forbidden by Moradin. In time, their opposition to the use of magic became so ingrained that it impacted their use of it. Only rare exceptions were able to (or allowed to) overcome this, at least until the Thunder Blessing came and Moradin returned the gift of magic to his people.
In canon, the only information we have about the Thunder Blessing is that it increased the dwarven birthrate. Dwarves suddenly using magic was another of the many things that changed with 3E but was not explained -- but the Thunder Blessing would be a great explanation for it.
So if we assume that dwarves being able to use magic again is connected to the Thunder Blessing, this theoretical dwarfpocalypse could explain how dwarves had previously used, but apparently lost, their ability to use arcane magic.
rather than a shaming or Moradin being made at them, maybe the dwarven resistance to magic was a magical consequence that had to eventually breed its way back out somehow (i.e. similar to an Electromagnetic pulse, some kind of anti-magic feedback wave permeated through the race, maybe even as a result of trying to make themselves more impervious to magical assaults from other races). It very well may have been that some powerful rune was created that enforced this upon the dwarves (and the creators of the rune died in the backlash, and other dwarves didn't even know it was done), and the thunder blessing was when this rune was shattered thunderously by some adventurers who may not have even known what they'd accomplished. If the rune were protected from scrying magics, etc... the gods may not have even known what happened. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2014 : 00:48:03
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The Nether Scrolls can be hammered and melted down into gold. Not very exciting gold, either, it retains no enchantments or dweomer remnants. The Nether Scrolls then eventually reform themselves or reappear elsewhere. So dwarves could make golden items out of Nether Scrolls, but they would only be dwarf-made golden items.
Dwarven rune magic might be similar to the Jotun rune magic of giants. Most giants are shamans/priests (divine spellcasters), but some can be wizards (arcane spellcasters). I might be mistaken, but I believe ancient giant civilizations had much to do with ancient djinn/genie/genasi civilizations in Realmslore - perhaps their magics are strongly aligned with the elements and Inner Planes.
Dwarves prior to 3E were categorically unable to become wizards or arcane spellcasters, aside from some adventure-specific extraordinary circumstances. Their dwarven constitution was inherently magic resistant - thus their bonuses to Saves vs magics and their sporadic inability to use many common magic items. I would be inclined to treat dwarven rune magics as divine magics granted by dwarven deities.
Dwarves also make great use of craftsmanship and skill and patience and ritual when forging their masterpieces. As if they channel background magic into items of worth through an investment of blood, sweat, toil, and tears. After all, their greatest works are pieces of art, not conceptually different from the Art practiced by mages. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2014 : 05:49:42
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| I don't have time to go into my full description but in my homebrew the Nether Scrolls work for dwarves as well. When they are 'altered' in form for the deepest secrets the scrolls take the form of an underground grotto with gems and streams of various ores along the walls. Dwarves who study the patterns gain insights as time passes and statues of Moradin and Dumathoin seem to whisper to them at times. Now I'm off to work! |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2014 : 11:34:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I don't have time to go into my full description but in my homebrew the Nether Scrolls work for dwarves as well. When they are 'altered' in form for the deepest secrets the scrolls take the form of an underground grotto with gems and streams of various ores along the walls. Dwarves who study the patterns gain insights as time passes and statues of Moradin and Dumathoin seem to whisper to them at times. Now I'm off to work!
That's a nifty idea, and it works without being connected to the Nether Scrolls -- it could be something else entirely. |
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Elves/selu'kiira Humans/netherscrolls Dwarves?
