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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  20:03:21  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found a lore snaffu.

Dragon 362 says that in -105 DR the chief Yvengi leads the Rus through a malfunctioning portal in the whalebones to Rashemen

Champions of Ruins says that in -75 DR the half Rus/half Rashemmi berserker Yvengi finally liberated Rashemen from Eltab using Hadryllis.


So Yvengi is unlikely to have been half Rus/half Rashemmi if he led the Rus to Rashemen in the first place. Plus he would likely have been 60-70 plus if he was chief in -105 DR and then finally liberated Rashemen in -75 DR (30 years later).

It almost precludes the option of Shaund son of Akul being the one who led the Rus to Rashemen, but perhaps not.

If the portal malfunctions then it is possible that -105 DR was not the first time it opened. It is possible that Shaund was the first to open the portal and went to Rashemen where he had a child and learned of the plight of the Rashemmi under Eltab and also found similar magic inscriptions to the ones on Ruathym and the whalebones (sarrukh magic of the baetith), perhaps the witches of Rashemen transformed him into a Skarn, perhaps the old ones are human/sarrukh hybrids (dont the sarrukh or yuan ti have a title of great old ones). Shaund has a child, he returns to Ruathym with the child, he learns how to open the portal on command, finds magic to help the witches fight Eltab.

Yvengi grows up and becomes chief, Shaund remains the tribe shaman. The northmen try to eradicate the Rus and Shaund reopens the portal allowing his tribe to flee (he does not come through and is revered for the sacrifice he made). Perhaps Hadryllis came from a sarrukh/baetith cache on Ruathym.

The fleeing Rus led by Yvengi arrive on the shores of the Moonsea. Some of them travelled along the River Tesh, others along the River Duathamper, a last group holding the Windwalker Amulet and perhaps Hadrylis take the River Lis and end up in the Sea of Fallen Stars and discover another portal (opened by the Windwalker Amulet which must act as a key to these sarrukh portals) and end up in Rashemen.




The above is my attempt to bring together entries in GHoTR, CoR, and Volos Guide to All Things Magical.





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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 29 Sep 2019 20:22:46
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  20:35:11  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So i'm thinking the Rus are a subgroup within the northmen at this point in time, perhaps a single settlement (which is called something like Rus) located near the arakhor known as yggdrasil's child which sits on the southern edge of Ruathym.

Sarrukh ruins under Rus allow Shaund to find the windwalker amulet. His explorations allow the portal in the whalebones to open when the windwalker amulet comes near it and off he goes. Being so near the sarrukh ruins and surrounded by their inscriptions the northmen of Rus accept this magic and are not as horrified by it (unlike Uthgar and his ilk).

The northmen are already noted explorers so its nothing new for the Rus to wander, when they go through the portal they just keep wandering until they finally land at Rashemen. I'm guessing they can't leave this place because of Eltab's rule (demons hunting humans in the night, they are forced to hide in caves, etc) and so are forced to join the fight. After spending 30 years in Rashemen they decide to stay.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  21:48:33  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Found a lore snaffu.

Dragon 362 says that in -105 DR the chief Yvengi leads the Rus through a malfunctioning portal in the whalebones to Rashemen

Champions of Ruins says that in -75 DR the half Rus/half Rashemmi berserker Yvengi finally liberated Rashemen from Eltab using Hadryllis.




Yvengi the Elder and Yvengi the Younger?

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  21:56:35  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also a possibility, I do like George's shaund son of Akul. Events are easier to explain if he is in control, if he has to negotiate it with the chieftain that becomes more complex but it does seem more likely that yvengi son of yvengi exists in -75dr

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  22:05:03  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How about Shaund is a legendary explorer who vanished via a one-way portal to Lake Ashane and then starts traveling westwards, across the North, having legendary adventures along the way. Word of those adventures trickle back to the Rus, and eventually he becomes a god, like Valkur, but worshipped from Lake Ashane to Myth Drannor to the North to Ruathym.

Later Yvengi the Elder leads the Rus through the same one-way portal to Lake Ashane. His son, Yvengi the Younger, claims both Rus and Rashemaar lineage and is the forefather of the descendants of the Rus.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 29 Sep 2019 22:36:34
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  22:12:56  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It bears some thought and the parallels with Valkur are interesting, in fact the name Valkur is similar enough to Akul that the two could be a corruption. Shaund Valkursson could easily be corrupted to shaund Akul over a hundred years (the English language transformed in a similar amount of time).

Legendary explorer goes to Rashemen and is thought lost. Returns long after he is dead and is revered for it. Saves his people from destruction and is deified.

His name is corrupted in separate ways by the separate groups.

Those northmen who drove the Rus away revered Valkur the legendary explorer (not the charlaton who returned. Those Rus who fled to Anauroch and Myth Drannor and Rashemen revered Shaund Akul.

It could work either way. The corruption is similar to the legend of Morgurs Mound and its involvement with Uthgars legend so it has happened before/since

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8343 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  23:48:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the idea of the younger and the elder makes a lot of sense with the half-rus/half-rashemi idea, because maybe Yvengi the Elder, as tribal chieftain marries a Rashemi in order to strengthen bonds with their new allies. I will say though, that was a good catch on the mess up with the dragon article. That little nut of jr and sr has been used to solve many a thing in the realms, but it also imminently makes sense too, given how many people name their child after the father or mother (or grandparents) in our own world.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5614 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2019 :  04:35:35  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd


Yvengi the Elder and Yvengi the Younger?

--Eric



The GHotR dating is correct here in that it doesn't explicitly state that Yvengi led the Rus in -105 DR. He's first mentioned in -75DR. Like Eric said, there will have to be an elder and younger Yvengi.

Funny that. I already had this noted in my (partial) list of Iron Lords of Rashemen. That will be my fix "when the time comes".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Sep 2019 04:46:16
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
629 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2019 :  21:05:27  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, this discussion is really an early Christmas for me, with the discussion about Rus and Shaundakul.

With Rashemi, and place magic, it was stated in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical,(and in the Starlight & Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham) place magic is actually at least in part derived from Rune Magic:

quote:
The Windwalker amulet was created by the Rus to assist in the
casting of ancient form of magic known as rune lore and was borne by the group that eventually settled in Rashemen. The Windwalker was handed down for generations, eventually coming into the hands of the Witches of Rashemen. The Witches adapted the artifact's enchantment to store the power of another ancient form of magic that had evolved from rune lore known as place magic.


Rune Lore, as used though the Windwalker amulet a pretty potent form of magic, being able to catch/contain Faerzress (and with that retain her innate drow powers on the surface). With Lolth even specifically using it through manipulating Liriel, to allow Drow to use their innate drow powers on the surface, when carved her rune on Yggdrasil's Child.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2019 :  21:13:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I'm not going anywhere near God events but I have wondered about that tree. Like all things treeish it screams arakhora, but I'm getting lots of sarrukh vibes about this place and the wind Walker amulet being from ruathym and George suggesting the whale bones portal being sarrukh tells me that the sarrukh may have had something to do with the arakhora (maybe the elves aren't the only ones who valued these planar creatures.

If the carving of a rune into the arakhor allowed drow everywhere to use magic on the surface then perhaps this arakhora is one of the weave anchors the baetith created.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
629 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2019 :  21:44:17  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it's possible that Yggdrasil's Child is an Arakhor placed upon to guard the weave anchor, and possibly merged with it, possibly intentionally. The Grandfather Tree after all, is an Arakhor summoned guard the Hall of Mists and the Nether Scrolls, so it's possible Yggdrasil's Child Arakhor was summoned for a similar task, if possibly by the Fey Creator race/Drine.
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  00:58:56  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wanted to make sure you had seen the write-up of Taragarth the Bloodbrand in Dragon #74, page 24, and FR4 - The Magister, page 60.

I speculated about the history of Toaridge-at-the-Sun's-Setting in AJA's thread.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 01 Oct 2019 01:03:13
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  06:58:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've definitely seen the write up of the bloodbrand, the mention of vlun gave me many headaches trying to place it (the west coast of gnarhelm in the end).

Is the thread you are referring to the one about waterdeep NPCs, I don't suppose you have an approximate page.

No is the mention of the blood brand in relation to the sarrukh perhaps, toaridge and the sunset isle have thus far remained blank because there really is nothing noted about them anywhere that I could find.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  07:07:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow that is some good lore, I fear I may have to rewrite more than a few areas of the moonshaes now.
Sertra would have had an effect on the moonshaes politics at the time and since there is a netherese presence at dark horns it is likely that melvair darkhorn was from the same group.

Glad the sinking islands is a thing though as I've used it as a major indicator of the diminishing health of the earthmother.

Good stuff Eric, loving the extra moonshaes lore as always

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  08:58:29  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A few immediate thoughts on sertra and toaridge.

First is netherese and talfir refugees founded it in 46 dr. This predates ffolk arrival. There is no mention of social structure but as with most things netherese I will assume arcanist upper class with other ethnicity (talfir) as slaves.

A splinter group must have headed to gwynneth at some point led by melvair darkhorn.

So why did the later ffolk ignore or avoid sertra, did they recognise the netherese danger there. What part, if any, did sertra play during the second war with kazgoroth.

Sertra collapses 191 dr, that's going to cause a wave and water pollution. What caused the collapse and why would sea elves move into the ruins soon after, were the netherese doing bad magic and it caused the island to collapse and the sea elves were guarding it to stop others using it.

Where did the sea elves come from, there is deep glen and tir faoi thoinn (which I also though was a collapsed island).

Did sertra leave any legacies in snowdown perhaps (an attempt at expansion or a few survivors).

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  10:37:48  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I picked 46 DR in relation to 34 Dr. See GHotR. Myy thought was the Netherese might not come out on top. It could be more equal.

Also, collapse was 181 not 191. Sea elves took over the place in 191 DR, 10 years later. I figure most of the coral was grown with magical acceleration.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Edited by - ericlboyd on 01 Oct 2019 11:02:08
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  10:43:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the realms history has shown that the netherese almost always come out on top except in the face of zealous hatred (the northmen attacking illusk and refusing to give in because they hate magic). The talfir seem mostly peaceable (based on ffolk society) so it's a fair bet to assume that even a few netherese arcanists could dominate a large number of ffolk, even melvair darkhorn on his own carved out a kingdom amid the ffolk.

181 dr might work as the collapse, it's enough time for melvair to flee the island and setup his mini kingdom on gwynneth, I just need to check my dates alongside it to see if there is a clash with anything.

I wonder how many other realms l archive hints have been lost, I found the castle of skulls before it closed but obviously missed sertra.


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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  13:09:47  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I think the realms history has shown that the netherese almost always come out on top except in the face of zealous hatred (the northmen attacking illusk and refusing to give in because they hate magic). The talfir seem mostly peaceable (based on ffolk society) so it's a fair bet to assume that even a few netherese arcanists could dominate a large number of ffolk, even melvair darkhorn on his own carved out a kingdom amid the ffolk.

181 dr might work as the collapse, it's enough time for melvair to flee the island and setup his mini kingdom on gwynneth, I just need to check my dates alongside it to see if there is a clash with anything.

I wonder how many other realms l archive hints have been lost, I found the castle of skulls before it closed but obviously missed sertra.





OK, I updated the Sertra write-up with some detail about the Netherese coming out on top.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  13:21:49  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, never expected that.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  13:52:58  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trying to figure out the best way to reply ...

"Boom! There it is!"

Or

"No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition ..."

:-)

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  14:18:30  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the film sliding doors, but that line was terrible.

Now I can mess around with sertra and nindrol lore between the lines you have sketched.

I'm thinking melvair was one of the arcanists but left 5 years before sertra was destroyed. I'm wondering if perhaps the netherese were using the moonwell as a spell pool to help power their awesome magic (perhaps making a sort of mythallar out of it so they could cast spells far beyond their normal power individually). Maybe a super powered banish spell to send him back to the far realm by opening a planar rift (I found an elder evil that recommends placing in the western heartlands that would fit with the shadowking - cant remember the name though).

I'm wondering how the shadowking was eventually imprisoned, is it detailed in a novel perhaps.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  14:35:38  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I like the film sliding doors, but that line was terrible.

Now I can mess around with sertra and nindrol lore between the lines you have sketched.

I'm thinking melvair was one of the arcanists but left 5 years before sertra was destroyed. I'm wondering if perhaps the netherese were using the moonwell as a spell pool to help power their awesome magic (perhaps making a sort of mythallar out of it so they could cast spells far beyond their normal power individually). Maybe a super powered banish spell to send him back to the far realm by opening a planar rift (I found an elder evil that recommends placing in the western heartlands that would fit with the shadowking - cant remember the name though).

I'm wondering how the shadowking was eventually imprisoned, is it detailed in a novel perhaps.



Crypt of the Shadowking
Curse of the Shadowmage


--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2019 :  14:46:12  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ugh, I'm not sure I can face reading another novel, let alone 2. I love the realms, but not the novels.

Hopefully I can find the answer right at the end of the book.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2019 :  17:14:12  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually the book is not all that terrible, I think I've got to the story of verrakeths imprisonment, a hokey tale about a bard battling him for a solid week and then defeating him with pan pipes and bonding him to a great crypt and raising a hill atop it.

The story is likely an elaboration (after all the source was written by several authors and the has been copied many times (with the original destroyed).

The use of the word "weave" makes me think of elves. Talek Talembar is non descript but I'm sure I've seen a surname similar to talembar before and it sounds selfish. It would make sense for the elves to have the power to imprison him and raise a huge hill with magic (although marking the sight is a really stupid thing to do).

The story doesn't say whether the crypt was built for that purpose or already existed. Might be there is something else imprisoned or buried there.

I will continue reading, I'm getting rather interested in the western heartlands though. Lots of hidden secrets.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4762 Posts

Posted - 03 Oct 2019 :  14:48:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finally got through the last of the lore in the moonshae isles. Decided to add a ffolk kingdom of cambryn atop cambridge and stretching to caervu as I figured that there were too many similarities between the royal house of cambridge and the names of nearby local geography (cambro mountains and cambrent gap).

I figure its established after the 201 dr war with kazgoroth, and doesn't last long as the firbolgs and other remaining allies of kazgoroth wear it down (I randomly chose 272 as the date of destruction and then looked it up and it was fortuitously the year of weeping kingdoms).

Now to go back over everything and start making some sense of it.

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