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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2019 :  08:51:00  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So heimdal could be guardian of home and the dalheim becomes home of guardians.

I think I will use petrified warriors on llorgh, and then use the memory morphed rocks for other islands in norheim and for gnarhelm and Oman where there are Galeb duhr like creatures.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2019 :  13:34:21  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Adding in tristans chain shirt, seems sensible to be mithril, its light and strong and gleaming like silver, and it keeps him alive against blows from dinosaurs, giants, and even a God. Not sure whether to make it enchanted though, not everything has to be enchanted.

Daryths scimitar is magic, might make it a shoon weapon, minor enchantment to make it sharper and glow in the dark.

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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
93 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2019 :  20:04:38  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A couple of questions, Gary, about your ultimate goal.

1. Will this Moonshaes lore project eventually be a GHotR-like publication similar to the Maztica project stuff that has been published at the DMs Guild?

2. I believe you published a dynastic record regarding the Moonshaes High-Kings. Will you publish a dynastic record of the Gwynneth/Corwell sub-Kings? Will it be included in the Moonshaes lore project I asked about above? And, do you have enough canon lore to attempt to compile a Gwynneth/Corwell dynastic record?

3. And, to sneak in a third question, when might this be published?

Thank you.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2019 :  20:40:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I cant say i'm terribly enamoured with the DMs Guild, too much water in the swamp to get noticed. I also dislike having to update and release new versions of pdfs and make them available everywhere.

So instead i opted to go for a wiki style webpage (the link is in my sig) that i can build step by step and amend as i see fit without having to update and release the material.

Ultimately i'm hoping to detail the Moonshae Isles as much as i can using all the canon lore available but repurposing and twisting bits of it to remove the really horrible bits (everything 4e and later) and also to allow DMs and players to take part in the Kazgoroth events rather than just read about them in a novel (i really hate that novels removed playing opportunities, by the end of the two trilogies there was no reason to ever visit the Moonshae Isles).

I plan to have a detailed wiki of every place and person and item and organisation in the Moonshae Isles and then have an adventure path of sorts (not even started that bit) that allows the players to stop Kazgoroth's return.

I'm only intending to do this on the wordpress website i'm afraid and there is no intended finishing date, its a labour of love at this point, if i get fed up i will move onto another area (i intend to cover everywhere in the realms if i live long enough) and come back as the whims take me.

I've got the Hugh Dynasty from GHoTR which i'm adding a bit of detail to as i go through events. I did at one point detail all the dynasties of Corwell, Moray, Oman, and Snowdown as part of an earlier version but i've decided i'm not entirely happy with those and will only be using pieces. Ultimately the dynasties of Corwell and the other islands is not terribly important and i have only provided detail on a few that allowed me to detail the area further.

If you want to see what i've got then here is the link https://alternaterealmsblog.wordpress.com/

I will add pictures and pretty it up when i've finished, but thats more of an if than a when.

If you have any comments (even something as minor as spelling mistakes or poor sentence structure) then you can post them here or on the site (i think i have comments enabled)

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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 12 Sep 2019 20:44:08
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 15 Sep 2019 :  21:24:00  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Added in my take on ley lines and crossroads, trying to incorporate menhir, trilithons, and dolmen into different ways to affect ley lines and crossroads and why they arent well known outside of the Moonshae Isles and Rashemen (basically what is it about urbanisation and civilisation that removes ley lines).



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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2019 :  07:58:55  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darkwell details added, now onto a past approximation of the details on prophet of moonshae.

First up are the blackstones. I get the feeling that they have been talos worshippers for a long time. I'm decided on talos being a northmen God (netheril was jonah and calkmshan was bhaelros and talos fits with the bleak northmen ideology as well as his look being northmen ish)

Cults aren't really a northmen thing, they just follow the advice of their skalds who represent all the gods of the northmen and provide predictions and other services to those nearby.

The illuskans of gnarhelm however are from stornanter and so are perfect for evil cults. Angus Blackstone is a big man and his hearth has a huge double bladed axe above it (a northmen weapon) so perhaps he is of illuskan heritage.

Aeroth Silverhelm was from silverymoon and established vlan after the illuskans took gnarhelm, perhaps the blackstones could be illuskans from vlan that helped secure the Blackstone pass and were rewarded with an earldom.

I could even have coss-axell-sinioth provide the means (money) for the blackstones to secure the pass from gnarhelm and thus cement the worship of talos among the earls of Blackstone. For instance providing a bag of 100 black Pearls with which moray mercenaries were bought and used to fight. In return the earl makes a shrine beneath Blackstone manor and inducts his son and does a bit of sacrificing and we have a cult cell that's lasts a century or more.

I need to pepper in similar events throughout the other ffolk kingdoms where a wealthy benefactor provides patronage in return for some low level evil doing. The coss-axell-sinioth has cultists all over the islands taking part in his ritual that focuses a part of the eternal maelstrom on the moonshae isles.

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1551 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2019 :  14:06:55  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
(...) I'm decided on talos being a northmen God (...)


Since in the original novels he is one of the interloper deities which is trying to establish himself in the islands, and Tempus has a "stormy aspect" among the northmen, I decided to explore a rivalry between them - or their clergy - in my campaign. Not exactly what you intend to do, but maybe you can get something out of it. Maybe they wrestle for worshipers, just like Malar gets some followers away from Tempus among the northmen, mostly the more savage berserkers.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2019 :  14:41:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I will have a think about it, you do pose an interesting point in that the worship of talos already exists among northmen so why would coss-axell-sinioth import a similar cult from the mainland.

I think for me the answer is that the northmen are not very religious, they are pragmatic about it and offer veneration only when requires (its stormy, sacrifice a goat to talas). Otherwise I think the northmen ignore their gods (the worship of tempos declined considerably among the northmen in the past few centuries according to ed).
I reckon the skalds are the only ones preserving the worship of the gods and they are doing so to keep a place in society for themselves, they don't care which God people venerate, they offer that divine link for people to any God (and accept sacrifices on their behalf).

I think the goal of interloper cults is to establish themselves among the more organised and therefore susceptible societies of the ffolk and the illuskans of gnarhelm.

There is enough mentions in canon to suppose that cults have been making inroads into the islands for a few centuries (malar in prayers from the faithful, bane twice in halls of the high king, bhaal in halls of the high king, talos in prophet of moonshae) but there is no widespread presence so I think it is still relatively virgin territory, the cults just need to remove the monopoly that the druids and the earthmother have in ffolk culture (hence the campaign to eliminate them).

No direct divine intervention for me though, that's strictly disallowed.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2019 :  22:19:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Noted that lavish was from snowdown but the one island she is not mentioned as visiting is snowdown. I could perhaps manufacture a plot hook out of that later.

Also noted the Blackstone castle has a green dragon head mounted on its wall and the cult of the dragon has three fairly young green dragons that are siblings (not yet turned I believe). Perhaps one of the Earl's of Blackstone killed their parent

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2019 :  12:00:33  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Picking up on the talisman that Coss-Axell-Sinioth affixed to the ship that reflect magic back at the caster.

I noted that the talisman had the triple forked lightning bolt on it, and that same symbol is found in the sahuagin of kressilacc.

Giving it a bit of history i figured it arrived with the illuskan invasion of gnarhelm and thus might have had history in stornanter. Given its primary power is to reflect magic i figure it might have been crafted with the purpose of being used against Laeral, perhaps during the coup to kill her (the one which killed Marek). Perhaps the coup was discovered early before the talisman was ready and so they had to implement it early (resulting in its failure).

Then, in keeping with burials in Gnarhelm, it was buried at sea with an important noble at some point later where it came to be picked up by the sahuagin of Kressilacc who worshipped it as a symbol of a powerful god of storms.

I also decided to give it the power to call down a lightning strike and make the user immune to lightnings, i'm going to call this item the Eye of the Storm

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32521 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2019 :  14:50:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never liked the name Coss-Axell-Sinioth. Sounds too much like one of those real-world noble houses that was formed by the marriage of other noble houses.

I don't like having even a single hyphen in a name, much less multiple ones.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2019 :  15:01:11  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I share a similar dislike unless there is a cultural reason for it (like I use in unther). So I decided to make coss-axell-sinioth a merged being a bit like a sharn, each of those names are fragments of the names of the original beings. There was no indication to do as such in canon but there is so little written about him and he is killed off so I figure I have free reign.

I thought the squid form was significant and his other form as an amorphous blob with pseudo pod limbs gave me the idea of something sharn like. I was originally going to make one of his parts be batrachi but couldn't find a satisfactory link to why he would want to destroy the ffolk. Then I moved onto elves and linked him to an idea i have regarding the llewyrr flight from illefarn, so coss-axell-sinioth are elven names and he wants to destroy the moonshae isles and everything on them because he is bound to that location.

It's still work in progress, but hopefully it's more interesting and grounded than the current unknown squid guy

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2019 :  20:47:02  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tried to come up with sahuagin approximations for the surface deities that are worshipped there.

Koraxis the Ravening Maw (Bhaal), Ssassatal the Forked (Talos), Nutasslin the Briny Waste (Auril), Ragarmax the Seawolf (Malar).

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5637 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2019 :  23:29:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Tried to come up with sahuagin approximations for the surface deities that are worshipped there.

Koraxis the Ravening Maw (Bhaal), Ssassatal the Forked (Talos), Nutasslin the Briny Waste (Auril), Ragarmax the Seawolf (Malar).



I think these are very cool. I am a huge fan of various deities being worshipped around the Realms via different names. Good stuff.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 19 Sep 2019 23:29:51
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5637 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2019 :  23:30:01  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Tried to come up with sahuagin approximations for the surface deities that are worshipped there.

Koraxis the Ravening Maw (Bhaal), Ssassatal the Forked (Talos), Nutasslin the Briny Waste (Auril), Ragarmax the Seawolf (Malar).



I think these are very cool.I am a huge fan of various deities being worshipped around the Realms via different names. Good stuff.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2019 :  08:30:34  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers George, I might change ssassatal to be the black squall rather than the forked. For me the gods are unrelated to mainland ones because there can be no direct communication between worshipper and deity, but that's just me.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2019 :  20:43:20  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's an interesting idea of Talos being originally a Northmen god - he actually seems a lot like a combination of Odin and Thor, if possessing their worst traits from personality.

Maybe though Talos was originally of a Neutral alignment (True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral), or at less outright malicious, and more pessimistic, with only becoming how he is known today in Faerun, after subsuming/absorbing Kozah, as such things happen. (ie like with Selvetarm after he absorbed Zanassu.)

I also wondered if Kozah wasn't maybe Lawful (specifically Lawful Evil), as among the Beliefs of the Bedine, he is represented as a seeming like a Lawful God.

It's also possible though Talos was always Chaotic Evil, but Kozah was Lawful.

About Northmen though, I confirmed in a recent question to Eric L. Boyd that Shaundakul was indeed originally, and started out as a Rus God:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=47.56&TOPIC_ID=3803#521402

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Hi Eric,

I have question about Shaundakul. In Faiths and Pantheons, it is mentioned "his existence may date back to the time of the Rus, forbears of the Rashemaar".

Does this mean Shaundakul was worshipped by the Rus, possibly even his faith originating among the Rus?

More hints of this is with the "Windwalker" artifact of the Rus - the same name as Shaundakul's Specialty Priests.



Yeah, that's what I was hinting, without stating so definitively. Give the DM a direction to go in if they wanted.

--Eric



Seeing Rus were a tribe of Northmen, it would also seem Shaundakul was a member of the Northmen proto-pantheon. This also set's up a (further) precedent some gods could be completely or night forgotten in their original, or previous pantheon. This could be explained how Tempus possibly took over Talos' role (ie of a Storm God) among Moonshae Northmen.

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Sep 2019 21:12:04
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2019 :  21:25:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well i've pretty much removed the deific struggle completely from my realms and instead turned it into religious geo politics. I dont even bother assigning alignment to deities anymore as im happy for anyone to worship anyone and do whatever they want, punishment only occurs if other members of the religion find out and do anything about it.

That being said, i'm imagining the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath to have a massive effect on the pantheons of Faerun which results in the Faerunian pantheon. As the Netherese and Jhaam people flood into the Western Heartlands region they mix with the northmen and it causes massive strive including religious strife. The worship of Kozah had almost died out so them embracing Talos probably didnt cause much trouble. The battle between the faithful of the war deities caused a lot of problems (with at least two avatars being summoned to the field to do battle).

I'd never really paid attention to the Rus before but now it appears i have made a rather large oversight, i never realised they existed as a separate racial ethnicity until just now. It would appear they were a separate culture on Ruathym that merged with the northmen to form the illuskans. It must be the Rus that transformed the northmen into rune magic users. It is all starting to become very complicated as it means that the northmen that invaded the moonshaes in 200 DR could not have come from Ruathym.

Good pointer there, i will need to do a lot more research into the Rus and Shaundakul (does he have a presence in the Sword Coast/Savage Frontier, if not, why not).

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  00:33:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I understand.

Although I think there still could be something similar to what I suggested, like with Kozah's worshipers and Church being more lawful (which was retained by his Bedine worshipers), and possibly the worshipers and cult of Talos were more Neutral, before the influx the malicious Kozah converted worshipers, and eventual absorption, and adaption of parts of Kozah's dogma into that of Talos.

With Shaundakul and the Sword Coast, I found that The Fellowship of the Next Mountain is an order of rangers and clerics worshiping him, active in the Sword Coast North and Moonsea North - both areas were the oldest worshipers of Shaundakul were active (ie the Rus and the worshipers from Myth Drannor - the first of which quite possibly also were Rus settlers.)

It's also stated a few times Shaundakul is generally worshiped in a vague "North", were he also had many shrines, so I think this also probably includes Sword Coast North, when combined with the information on The Fellowship of the Next Mountain. In general it seems Shaundakul's clergy are mobile (described as struck with wanderlust), which possibly means his faithful today are spread in small groups through Northern Faerun, if the greatest modern concentration seems in the Moonsea North.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5637 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  03:49:51  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison


I'd never really paid attention to the Rus before but now it appears i have made a rather large oversight, i never realised they existed as a separate racial ethnicity until just now. It would appear they were a separate culture on Ruathym that merged with the northmen to form the illuskans. It must be the Rus that transformed the northmen into rune magic users. It is all starting to become very complicated as it means that the northmen that invaded the moonshaes in 200 DR could not have come from Ruathym.

Good pointer there, i will need to do a lot more research into the Rus and Shaundakul (does he have a presence in the Sword Coast/Savage Frontier, if not, why not).



I would suggest that the Rus became a separate racial identity AFTER they stumbled into a (sarrukh) portal landing them on the far side of Faerūn. There they mixed with local ethnic populations and formed their own, separate diverse ethnicity. Before that they were clearly Illuskan in my view.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5637 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  03:53:58  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and in my Realms, I'd have them led in that time of tumult and fear by Shaund son of Akul, who promises to "lead them back to their homeland" and thereby engendering the roaming culture the Rus are famous for. He is deified when he passes and becomes the patron of wanderers and travellers as the Rus spin his life into legend.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  08:46:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's good stuff George, although a sarrukh portal? I was going to use sarrukh but I have my own reasons that I doubt anyone else would use so I'm wondering what yours are for using sarrukh.

As for Shaund son of akul and the Rus existing only when they stepped through the portal does pose the problem of how shaundakuls worship exists in the sword coast with an order of his wanderers (especially if you don't allow God meddling).

I wonder if shaund was not exiled or abandoned his home for some reason, and a number of his followers got lost and ended up elsewhere (and thus started his worship in the sword coast and anauroch).

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
634 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  12:49:57  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's my take, but I think it's possible Shaundakul's worshipers spread to Anauroch and Sword Coast North, as part of their mission/dogma to return to their homeland (Sword Coast North, Ruathym), before their dogma finalized into the current journey and exploration based form.

I also wonder if Shaund was a runecaster himself, and possibly even used or created the Windwalker amulet.
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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2019 :  16:10:10  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is possible that shaundakuls worship spread to sword coast and moonsea and the sword coast from myth drannor/anauroch, but such a branched migration plan is likely to cause problems with other things

It is certainly cleaner to have shaund be of legendary hero status before he departs ruathym that way he can be worshipped in all three regions without a complicated reason why.

As for the rune magic part. The northmen have a rabid hatred of magic, and uthgar was similarly anti magic. The illuskans however of later years have a much more relaxed attitude to magic if it proves beneficial to them.

The rashemmi are also wary of wizardry type magic but are seemingly happier with the place and spirit magic used by the witches of rashemen.
The rus certainly seem like a good candidate for having exposure to rune magic, indeed many of the sword coast islands have some dwarven or giant ish ruins on them which indicates the possibility of rune magic.

Shaund could well have been able to use the magic and became hugely successful because of it. This rune skill might even have allowed him to open the portal that so far no others have been able to.

I'm not sure the sword coast islands are United in any way, and while shaund may have commanded the power of ruathym and gained acceptance it is possible the other northmen isles branded him an evil magic user and tried to invade, perhaps that is why he left through the portal.

The Rus could have been an early name for northmen but I have seen norl used in at least one source for northmen so I've taken that name for those proto illuskans with the healthy distrust of magic. Perhaps Rus could be part of the naming convention meaning son of Shaund Russon (because sson has been used a lot in he moonshaes for northmen as son of already) Akul shortened to Shaund Akul.

Still need to do my research first though before committing anything to paper. It just seems that any isolated corner you try to develop has at least 20 or 30 major links with other lands with far reaching consequences, it makes things very difficult.

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
4810 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2019 :  19:14:15  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Going through all things Rus.

First random thing i come across is from Magic of Incarnum (core i realise), family names for Skarn include Rus.

A skarn is a human appearing being infused with incarnum magic (easy for me to make that rune magic) with reptilian spines at the elbow and behind the knees.

So, sarrukh magic is possibly in Ruathym (sarrukh portal to Rashemen), Shaund son of Akul of the Rus tribe could be a Skarn (perhaps he meddled with sarrukh magic and became part reptilian and now better able to manipulate sarrukh magic (of which only the runic script survived). The other northmen dislike his use of magic and discover his reptilian taint and decide to eradicate the Rus so Shaund leads them through the portal to another land.

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