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ElfBane
Learned Scribe

USA
83 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2019 :  19:34:23  Show Profile Send ElfBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know the lore on dragon behavior says they are basically solitary after maturity. Perhaps these are a mutation that has learned the benefits of taking vassals. But then there are the negatives of "pack" behavior... there's always a Beta male or female looking to take your job!
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2019 :  20:19:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Arveiturace or Arauthathor (i forget which one) certainly uses that behaviour for the dragons she allows to dwell on dragon home (i presume to guard something for her)

I could use that for the mountains in Norland, something big and draconic that makes all the other dragons subservient to it, even some of the big adults (kind of like the big dragon in How to Train Your Dragon). Mayhaps the crystals in the Jotunhammer Mountains are dragon eggs, perhaps i could make them fairy dragon eggs (in my version fairy dragons are much much larger on the plane of faeree, they only appear small when they manifest on the material plane)

Not sure it could apply to the entire island, there are some large and powerful dragons out there and they have a history of fighting each other in and around the Moonshae Isles.

Its also strange that almost all of the dragons documented in the Moonshae Isles are chromatic. Perhaps there is something here in the environment that helps them all somehow just by them spending time here.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  07:40:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've got it, the moonwell prison made for kazgoroth that inhibits his rage ability with music also helps the chromatic dragons with their draco rage and reduces territorial behaviour. That's why so many chromatic dragons live here in such close proximity.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 31 Jul 2019 :  14:52:39  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nearly done adding all the darkwalker lore into what I've done.
I'm thinking of making one of amlauril's twin daughters be Aileen (the sister of synnoria killed by Laric). In Darkwalker, Laric perceives Aileen as being full of power to sustain him and he chooses her over the other sisters, it implies she is something special (although the portrayal I vaguely recall was him seeing her as full of light which is a bit of a Tolkien rip off in my opinion).
Then in Evermeet the novel I note that three of Amlaurils children are in Evermeet, and then it details twin girls that took up martial training and then were lost on a sea voyage. Ships from Evermeet only really go to the Moonshae Isles that I know of and the official story (lost at sea) could easily have been a ruse to allow them to go into hiding (so many other children dead already).

Firbolgs from the Blackleaf tribe (I'm changing them to the Blackhoof tribe to fit in with the 4e map). I note that in Darkwalker Groth was in charge, but in Druid Queen it says that Klatnaught was the leader during that time. Groth can just be a war leader while Klatnaught leads the whole tribe.

I got the feeling there was something really evil in the mines of the Big Cave, so I've added in a big pit and a few allusions to evil remnants in there.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 01 Aug 2019 :  21:18:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Darkwalker lore all added, onto Black Wizard next.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 02 Aug 2019 :  11:18:33  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just some idle musing. Gotha is a puzzle for a non God centric version of the realms. His entire reason to exist and to be present in the moonshae isles is totally dependent upon talos and his direct manipulation of this pawn to sacrifice him in a relatively un2noteworthy for questionable gain.

This of course is not allowed if gods cannot directly interact with the material plane.

So the problem is why would gotha fly from the shining south all the way to the frozen far north, get trapped in a cave for a few thousand years and then fly to the moonshae isles to wreak havoc upon the ffolk.

The frozenfar north bit I can kind of figure out. Like all chromatic dragons he probably worried about the dracorage, perhaps he discovered some history that determined a possible location for this mythical focus in the great glacier region where the elves supposedly erected this mythal.

But why, after getting stuck there would he fly to the moonshae isles.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5615 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2019 :  02:25:23  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Just some idle musing. Gotha is a puzzle for a non God centric version of the realms. His entire reason to exist and to be present in the moonshae isles is totally dependent upon talos and his direct manipulation of this pawn to sacrifice him in a relatively un2noteworthy for questionable gain.

This of course is not allowed if gods cannot directly interact with the material plane.

So the problem is why would gotha fly from the shining south all the way to the frozen far north, get trapped in a cave for a few thousand years and then fly to the moonshae isles to wreak havoc upon the ffolk.

The frozenfar north bit I can kind of figure out. Like all chromatic dragons he probably worried about the dracorage, perhaps he discovered some history that determined a possible location for this mythical focus in the great glacier region where the elves supposedly erected this mythal.

But why, after getting stuck there would he fly to the moonshae isles.



Perhaps Gotha wasn't a red dragon to begin with but rather a priest of Talos transformed into one to serve the needs of that deity, and in that regard, perhaps unwittingly.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 03 Aug 2019 :  10:19:56  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's not too bad, he could provide a link between the church of talos and bhaelros. Perhaps he did not fly north immediately, perhaps he flew across faerun searching for something.

I'll have to check when he flew north and his approximate age, if i can tie it to the draco rage somehow i will as it's a great motivator for chromatic dragons.

Still hoping to find some dragon overlords of the south though, i was hoping he could be one of them, I suppose he still could, even if he is a transformed cultists.
Bhaelros could even have been a dragon, what is more destructive than a dragon. Gotha was a former cultists of bhaelros and tried to fill his shoes when he died or vanished.

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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
367 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  01:51:53  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

Nearly done adding all the darkwalker lore into what I've done.
I'm thinking of making one of amlauril's twin daughters be Aileen (the sister of synnoria killed by Laric). In Darkwalker, Laric perceives Aileen as being full of power to sustain him and he chooses her over the other sisters, it implies she is something special (although the portrayal I vaguely recall was him seeing her as full of light which is a bit of a Tolkien rip off in my opinion).
Then in Evermeet the novel I note that three of Amlaurils children are in Evermeet, and then it details twin girls that took up martial training and then were lost on a sea voyage. Ships from Evermeet only really go to the Moonshae Isles that I know of and the official story (lost at sea) could easily have been a ruse to allow them to go into hiding (so many other children dead already).

In addition to that, you've also got two of Amlaruil's sons, Xharlion and Zhoron, sent to Synnoria for combat training (according to Elaine Cunningham's novel Evermeet). I've always wondered why no author followed up on this storyline. I imagine them 'doing a Danilo' among the Sisters of Synnoria, especially as there are relatively few male Llewyrr.

Edited by - BenN on 05 Aug 2019 01:54:05
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  10:32:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is a very good point. I had never though much about the two male twins. Their presence in llewyrr society should be profound given the shortage of men and the weakness of llewyrr fertility.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  14:46:52  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to guess that like human princes their will have been chaperone and their courting habits carefully proscribed (they cannot be allowed to couple with undesirabes).

I'm also going to assume that elves are not like humans and that they are not rotting animals whenever the urge or opportunity presents itself.

Therefore the twin princes of evermeet were on synnoria to learn certain skills away from evermeet (perhaps the sisters of synnoria are even better warriors than the defenders of evermeet), but otherwise remained only within the palace of ages and rarely left or mingled with the rest of the populace, acting as envoys and ambassadors between the two realms.

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BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
367 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  15:10:20  Show Profile Send BenN a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm also going to assume that elves are not like humans and that they are not rotting animals whenever the urge or opportunity presents itself.

My guess is kinda the opposite - elves are not bound by the relatively rigid mores of humans, so 'friends with benefits' is kinda the default in (young) elven society. This has some good insights into elven culture & society I think:

https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/races/elf/leaf.shtml

quote:
Other races generally consider the sexual freedom of elves shocking, fickle, and endlessly fascinating. The folk tales and rumors they repeat are much more scandalous and colorful than what really goes on. To an elf, sexual expression is just one item on a long list of experiences anyone should explore in the course of forging an identity. Experimentation with a range of partners is no more or less odd than tasting the juice of a dozen berries, following the path of plume-seeds as winds carry them through the woods, or learning the secret names of the forest's animals. Still, a young elf's exploration of love and lust should be as complete as any other quest he or she embarks upon.

Elves hold no double standards in their games of coupling and uncoupling. Males and females are both encouraged to fully express their physical yearnings. Young females can blithely pursue their infatuations because the low fertility rate of their long-lived species makes pregnancy unlikely. Children born out of wedlock, though rare, face no special prejudice in an elven community.

However, I guess if Anlaruil sends her two young sons for training abroad, they're going to have chaperons; the resulting interaction (and conflict) with Llewyrr elves eager to meet new young guys would be interesting......
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32456 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  15:21:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I'm going to guess that like human princes their will have been chaperone and their courting habits carefully proscribed (they cannot be allowed to couple with undesirabes).

I'm also going to assume that elves are not like humans and that they are not rotting animals whenever the urge or opportunity presents itself.

Therefore the twin princes of evermeet were on synnoria to learn certain skills away from evermeet (perhaps the sisters of synnoria are even better warriors than the defenders of evermeet), but otherwise remained only within the palace of ages and rarely left or mingled with the rest of the populace, acting as envoys and ambassadors between the two realms.



Or they were sent incognito, to learn more about regular elves.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  19:41:17  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I initially considered them being incognito, but I was going to use that for the supposedly dead daughter, but knowing there are two Male twins there already complicates matters.

I suppose I first need to investigate the approximate ages of amlaurils children. Then I can figure out who got sent where to determine whether the twins were sent as ambassadors or for another reason (the secret fosterage that the twin girls were originally sent for).
It's possible the twin boys and girls never met each other (depends upon age) and so wouldn't matter if they were both in the same place. Then the girl twin could have lost her memory and it's all sorted.

But research first.

Might be fun to have the twin boys impersonating girls. Even if they were incognito, new males in a female dominated society would be very big news and wouldn't take people long to find out they were the kids of amlauril.

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jamesewelch
Learned Scribe

87 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  20:06:31  Show Profile Send jamesewelch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Question question (I hope), the novels say that the Kendrick banner has a black field and a silver bear's head, but the 2nd edition FR campaign book shows it as a brown/bronze bear head on a field of white/red/black (as shown on https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kendrick ).

Are they just the same banner but used differently? Like the silver on black (novel version) might be a simplified version used on battle fields whereas the one on wiki is the official one?

The wiki actually lists the silver bear on black field as the description of the brown bear on red/white/black field image.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2019 :  21:31:20  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well to complicate matters i've seen it written that the wolf's head is the symbol of the Kendrick Dynasty.

I believe Brian R James came up with this explanation first but its one i intend to adopt.

The wolf is the symbol of the Kendrick Dynasty while the Bear is the symbol of the High Kingdom of the Moonshae.

Given that you have found two different versions of the bear symbol i would propose that one is the ancient symbol of the Cymrych Dynasty, while the other is the symbol of the High Kingdom of the Moonshaes.

I'm thinking that perhaps one would do well as a battle standard while the other is the regular heraldic symbol.

As an aside, I believe the Carrathal Dynasty is a castle tower. Depending upon the time frame you play in there could be a variety of different banners in use atop caer callidyrr. Reginald Carrathal's ownership of the Crown of the Isle (a crown that i believe was a false replica as the original crown was lost in 852 DR) indicates he was intending to reform the High Kingdom of the Moonshaes himself and so may have used the bear's head in addition to his own.


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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2019 :  20:35:45  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm up to Cyndre's Mirror in the novel lore so i need to start thinking about this mirror, the Deep Glass, and the mirror given to Deirdre by Coss-Axell-Sinioth.

I could keep the three mirrors separate, but the Deep Glass and Cyndre's Mirror already seem connected, and the Druidhome trilogy was more or less a star wars like rehash of the original trilogy so i may as well connect the last mirror, after all how many mirrors of scrying can be located in the same low magic region.

So i searched the moonshae quotes and i find that Nyrmurrh the dragon gets stuck in the Plane of Mirrors during the Dracorage. Nymurrh is all about mirrors and scrying so perhaps his reason for being in the Moonshae Isle relate to some powerful mirror.

More importantly after reading into the Plane of Mirrors i find they are inhabited by beings that stalk influential beings on the material plane and seek to kill and replace them.

Other lore states that if you travel to the Plane of Mirrors a copy of you is made that seeks to kill and replace you.


So i have three mirrors (possibly four or more), or a single mirror separated into multiple pieces, each enchanted for scrying, but each acts as a doorway into the Plane of Mirrors. When Deirdre smashes one mirror she is replaced by her mirror doppelganger.

Rieger Carrathal disappears mysteriously, he could easily have been lost in the Plane of Mirrors, unable to return.

All i need is a suitable origin for the mirrors. I'm not seeing anything geographically suitable to indicate an origin, nor have i got any clue in the lore to an origin of powerful mirror like artifacts. Anyone got any ideas or any stray bits of lore from other editions?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5615 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2019 :  00:49:27  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Idea: Flamsterd. They can be relics of Myth Drannor. It's never been explained how he got the Workbook. Maybe he got the mirrors as well. You can sort out how they ended up with the various kingdoms.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2019 :  02:03:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I shall look into it immediately. Myth Drannor is a big loremine, this should be an interesting first foray into its depths.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2019 :  11:14:35  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
First possibility is Mythanthors Glassshield, the original 10th level spell of which the only copy is held in Mythanthor's Folio. It allows the caster to solidify any magical field it is cast upon.

If someone were to use such a spell at a particularly magically virulent time then they could be catapulted anywhere, but more importantly the magic field itself would become solid. So i'm thinking if used upon a portal it creates a mirror (later smashed) that opens conduits to anywhere (and possibly anywhen).


Warrior's Gate had 4 portals to a variety of places. Supposedly the coronal and others knew a command word that could turn these portals into two way gates. I'm thinking that perhaps this would be a better candidate for the alamtine triangle, if you carry the triangle you can escape to Synnoria and then on to Evermeet.

Initial thoughts are that the Wizards Workbook that Flamsterd stole contained a copy of Mythanthor's Glassshield which he used during the Templestars Fall. Leading a group to safety through a passage in the Throne of Thought. To stop the enemy following them through he decided to use Glassshield to seal the portal (he would of course be killed), but instead he became trapped in the Plane of Mirrors and eventually managed to escape through one of the conduits (which was the time portal near Synnoria (Mirror Lake its called), carrying with him the shattered remains of the portal he solidified


The Myth Drannan Road in the Hall of the Beast Tamers is a bunch of one way portals in the form of mirrors that lead to Undermountain. The mirrors could certainly have malfunctioned at some point in the past (like when the fiends came into contact with Myth Drannor's mythal). I'd again have to use time travel to explain Flamsterd's connection to it because Myth Drannor wasnt opened to humans and the Halls of the Beast Tamers built way after Flamsterd established himself on the Moonshae Isles.



Still looking for alternative explanations but nothing resembling mirrors or gems at this point, and Mirror Lake seems like a good geographic place for Flamsterd's emergence into the Moonshae Isles and for the beginning of the mirrors




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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 07 Aug 2019 19:56:07
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2019 :  20:29:55  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The fabled Scrying Stones of Myth Drannor, one of them being the Watch Crystal of Alathas, created by George.

One them being corrupted, perhaps there was a crystal in each settlement in Cormanthyr and so one could have been in Tsornyl or the Old Elven Court. Corrupted by the presence of horrific evil could twist these items to be gateways to the Plane of Mirrors, with mirror doppelgangers waiting to replace the observer.

Flamsterd could have acquired one of these by chance while studying at the Incanistaem with the Seven, or he could have acquired it and the workbook while in tutelage to one of the Seven wherever they fled to before Myth Drannor's Fall.

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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1544 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2019 :  21:38:56  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would argue that Flamsterd did not study at the Inaistaeum, as he had to purchase the Wizard's Workbook from a band of adventurers. Rather, I think he came from the City of Splendors and might have acquired a Scrying Stone there.

Here's what I wrote about Mab (and thus Flamsterd) in Under Illefarn Anew.

===

Alicorn Tower of Mab

The Alicorn Tower of Mab sits astride a granite plug, north of the Way Inn, some ten miles east of the Trade Way. This slender, curving spire resembles the spiral horn of a unicorn and flickers with blue faerie fire when bathed in moonlight. The tower has no windows or battlements, and the only apparent means of entry is a rune-carved door built into the rockface directly below the tower.
Mab (NG male Tethyrian wizard 3 / druid 3 / arcane
hierophantRoW 12) was born in the kingdom of Callidyrr on the island of Alaron in the Moonshae Isles in the Year of the Black Wind (1262 DR). He rose to a senior position on the High King’s Council of Mages, only to be accused of treason, stripped of his spellbooks, and banished in the Year of the Broken Helm (1302 DR). After making his way to Waterdeep aboard a caravel, accompanied only by his ward, Gwydion pen Dafwyd, Mab was given an audience at Blackstaff Tower with Khelben Arunsun, who had been warned of his impending arrival by the reclusive archmage, Flamsterd. (Flamsterd, who hailed from the City of Splendors, could not disobey the order of the High King, but felt Mab did not deserve his banishment and reached out to the Blackstaff on his behalf.) Khelben then recommended Mab for the then vacant position of Court Wizard of Daggerford, and provided him with a set of spelltomes and other items of magic necessary to serve in that position.
Mab served as Court Wizard of Daggerford until his retirement in the Year of the Blue Flame (1327 DR), serving as the Blackstaff’s eyes and ears in Daggerford. After fashioning the Alicorn Tower, Mab withdrew to pursue his studies, the nature of which is mysterious even to Gwydion. No one, including the current ducal court wizard, has spoken to Mab in over a decade, leading many to believe he has died or vanished. Curiously, the Alicorn Tower of Mab was undisturbed during the recent Dragonspear War, leading some to speculate that Mab’s wards remain in place, masking whatever dark secrets lurk within. Gwydion refuses to speak of his former master, suggesting some sort of breach (or at least a sense of pique on Gwydion’s part) between Mab and his former ward.

===

quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

The fabled Scrying Stones of Myth Drannor, one of them being the Watch Crystal of Alathas, created by George.

One them being corrupted, perhaps there was a crystal in each settlement in Cormanthyr and so one could have been in Tsornyl or the Old Elven Court. Corrupted by the presence of horrific evil could twist these items to be gateways to the Plane of Mirrors, with mirror doppelgangers waiting to replace the observer.

Flamsterd could have acquired one of these by chance while studying at the Incanistaem with the Seven, or he could have acquired it and the workbook while in tutelage to one of the Seven wherever they fled to before Myth Drannor's Fall.



--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2019 :  21:51:26  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just noted the purchasing the book from adventurers in secrets of the magisterial, and your addition in illefarn anew seals it. Scrying Stones it is.

Although, I'm vaguely recalling flamsters was involved in something way back in the past in the moonshaes so I think his age is older than the city of splendors itself. But much like khelben, and other notable wizards you can have several origin stories if you get old enough.

I'll just have to check with George if he envisioned anything more for his scrying stones. Then I need to corrupt it and break it and remake it as several different items. I think they are fairly large so there should be enough material for 3 or 4 mirrors

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5615 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2019 :  05:00:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison

I just noted the purchasing the book from adventurers in secrets of the magisterial, and your addition in illefarn anew seals it. Scrying Stones it is.

Although, I'm vaguely recalling flamsters was involved in something way back in the past in the moonshaes so I think his age is older than the city of splendors itself. But much like khelben, and other notable wizards you can have several origin stories if you get old enough.

I'll just have to check with George if he envisioned anything more for his scrying stones. Then I need to corrupt it and break it and remake it as several different items. I think they are fairly large so there should be enough material for 3 or 4 mirrors



Horrified that you of all people Gary, don't follow my stuff at the DMs Guild.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/202378/Bazaar-of-the-Bizarre--Ilmaras-Scrying-Stones

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4763 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2019 :  08:07:19  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In gonna blame the dmsguild for that oversight, because without omniscience it is impossible to find anything in that quagmire.

I do hope they were present in a number of small outposts throughout cormanthyr, and that they are big enough.

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