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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2019 : 20:43:20
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It's an interesting idea of Talos being originally a Northmen god - he actually seems a lot like a combination of Odin and Thor, if possessing their worst traits from personality.
Maybe though Talos was originally of a Neutral alignment (True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral), or at less outright malicious, and more pessimistic, with only becoming how he is known today in Faerun, after subsuming/absorbing Kozah, as such things happen. (ie like with Selvetarm after he absorbed Zanassu.)
I also wondered if Kozah wasn't maybe Lawful (specifically Lawful Evil), as among the Beliefs of the Bedine, he is represented as a seeming like a Lawful God.
It's also possible though Talos was always Chaotic Evil, but Kozah was Lawful.
About Northmen though, I confirmed in a recent question to Eric L. Boyd that Shaundakul was indeed originally, and started out as a Rus God: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?whichpage=47.56&TOPIC_ID=3803#521402
quote: Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote: Originally posted by Baltas
Hi Eric,
I have question about Shaundakul. In Faiths and Pantheons, it is mentioned "his existence may date back to the time of the Rus, forbears of the Rashemaar".
Does this mean Shaundakul was worshipped by the Rus, possibly even his faith originating among the Rus?
More hints of this is with the "Windwalker" artifact of the Rus - the same name as Shaundakul's Specialty Priests.
Yeah, that's what I was hinting, without stating so definitively. Give the DM a direction to go in if they wanted.
--Eric
Seeing Rus were a tribe of Northmen, it would also seem Shaundakul was a member of the Northmen proto-pantheon. This also set's up a (further) precedent some gods could be completely or night forgotten in their original, or previous pantheon. This could be explained how Tempus possibly took over Talos' role (ie of a Storm God) among Moonshae Northmen. |
Edited by - Baltas on 27 Sep 2019 21:12:04 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 00:33:52
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I understand.
Although I think there still could be something similar to what I suggested, like with Kozah's worshipers and Church being more lawful (which was retained by his Bedine worshipers), and possibly the worshipers and cult of Talos were more Neutral, before the influx the malicious Kozah converted worshipers, and eventual absorption, and adaption of parts of Kozah's dogma into that of Talos.
With Shaundakul and the Sword Coast, I found that The Fellowship of the Next Mountain is an order of rangers and clerics worshiping him, active in the Sword Coast North and Moonsea North - both areas were the oldest worshipers of Shaundakul were active (ie the Rus and the worshipers from Myth Drannor - the first of which quite possibly also were Rus settlers.)
It's also stated a few times Shaundakul is generally worshiped in a vague "North", were he also had many shrines, so I think this also probably includes Sword Coast North, when combined with the information on The Fellowship of the Next Mountain. In general it seems Shaundakul's clergy are mobile (described as struck with wanderlust), which possibly means his faithful today are spread in small groups through Northern Faerun, if the greatest modern concentration seems in the Moonsea North. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6641 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 03:49:51
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'd never really paid attention to the Rus before but now it appears i have made a rather large oversight, i never realised they existed as a separate racial ethnicity until just now. It would appear they were a separate culture on Ruathym that merged with the northmen to form the illuskans. It must be the Rus that transformed the northmen into rune magic users. It is all starting to become very complicated as it means that the northmen that invaded the moonshaes in 200 DR could not have come from Ruathym.
Good pointer there, i will need to do a lot more research into the Rus and Shaundakul (does he have a presence in the Sword Coast/Savage Frontier, if not, why not).
I would suggest that the Rus became a separate racial identity AFTER they stumbled into a (sarrukh) portal landing them on the far side of Faerūn. There they mixed with local ethnic populations and formed their own, separate diverse ethnicity. Before that they were clearly Illuskan in my view.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6641 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 03:53:58
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Oh, and in my Realms, I'd have them led in that time of tumult and fear by Shaund son of Akul, who promises to "lead them back to their homeland" and thereby engendering the roaming culture the Rus are famous for. He is deified when he passes and becomes the patron of wanderers and travellers as the Rus spin his life into legend.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 12:49:57
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It's my take, but I think it's possible Shaundakul's worshipers spread to Anauroch and Sword Coast North, as part of their mission/dogma to return to their homeland (Sword Coast North, Ruathym), before their dogma finalized into the current journey and exploration based form.
I also wonder if Shaund was a runecaster himself, and possibly even used or created the Windwalker amulet. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2019 : 16:10:10
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It is possible that shaundakuls worship spread to sword coast and moonsea and the sword coast from myth drannor/anauroch, but such a branched migration plan is likely to cause problems with other things
It is certainly cleaner to have shaund be of legendary hero status before he departs ruathym that way he can be worshipped in all three regions without a complicated reason why.
As for the rune magic part. The northmen have a rabid hatred of magic, and uthgar was similarly anti magic. The illuskans however of later years have a much more relaxed attitude to magic if it proves beneficial to them.
The rashemmi are also wary of wizardry type magic but are seemingly happier with the place and spirit magic used by the witches of rashemen. The rus certainly seem like a good candidate for having exposure to rune magic, indeed many of the sword coast islands have some dwarven or giant ish ruins on them which indicates the possibility of rune magic.
Shaund could well have been able to use the magic and became hugely successful because of it. This rune skill might even have allowed him to open the portal that so far no others have been able to.
I'm not sure the sword coast islands are United in any way, and while shaund may have commanded the power of ruathym and gained acceptance it is possible the other northmen isles branded him an evil magic user and tried to invade, perhaps that is why he left through the portal.
The Rus could have been an early name for northmen but I have seen norl used in at least one source for northmen so I've taken that name for those proto illuskans with the healthy distrust of magic. Perhaps Rus could be part of the naming convention meaning son of Shaund Russon (because sson has been used a lot in he moonshaes for northmen as son of already) Akul shortened to Shaund Akul.
Still need to do my research first though before committing anything to paper. It just seems that any isolated corner you try to develop has at least 20 or 30 major links with other lands with far reaching consequences, it makes things very difficult. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 20:03:21
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Found a lore snaffu.
Dragon 362 says that in -105 DR the chief Yvengi leads the Rus through a malfunctioning portal in the whalebones to Rashemen
Champions of Ruins says that in -75 DR the half Rus/half Rashemmi berserker Yvengi finally liberated Rashemen from Eltab using Hadryllis.
So Yvengi is unlikely to have been half Rus/half Rashemmi if he led the Rus to Rashemen in the first place. Plus he would likely have been 60-70 plus if he was chief in -105 DR and then finally liberated Rashemen in -75 DR (30 years later).
It almost precludes the option of Shaund son of Akul being the one who led the Rus to Rashemen, but perhaps not.
If the portal malfunctions then it is possible that -105 DR was not the first time it opened. It is possible that Shaund was the first to open the portal and went to Rashemen where he had a child and learned of the plight of the Rashemmi under Eltab and also found similar magic inscriptions to the ones on Ruathym and the whalebones (sarrukh magic of the baetith), perhaps the witches of Rashemen transformed him into a Skarn, perhaps the old ones are human/sarrukh hybrids (dont the sarrukh or yuan ti have a title of great old ones). Shaund has a child, he returns to Ruathym with the child, he learns how to open the portal on command, finds magic to help the witches fight Eltab.
Yvengi grows up and becomes chief, Shaund remains the tribe shaman. The northmen try to eradicate the Rus and Shaund reopens the portal allowing his tribe to flee (he does not come through and is revered for the sacrifice he made). Perhaps Hadryllis came from a sarrukh/baetith cache on Ruathym.
The fleeing Rus led by Yvengi arrive on the shores of the Moonsea. Some of them travelled along the River Tesh, others along the River Duathamper, a last group holding the Windwalker Amulet and perhaps Hadrylis take the River Lis and end up in the Sea of Fallen Stars and discover another portal (opened by the Windwalker Amulet which must act as a key to these sarrukh portals) and end up in Rashemen.
The above is my attempt to bring together entries in GHoTR, CoR, and Volos Guide to All Things Magical.
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 29 Sep 2019 20:22:46 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2065 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 21:48:33
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Found a lore snaffu.
Dragon 362 says that in -105 DR the chief Yvengi leads the Rus through a malfunctioning portal in the whalebones to Rashemen
Champions of Ruins says that in -75 DR the half Rus/half Rashemmi berserker Yvengi finally liberated Rashemen from Eltab using Hadryllis.
Yvengi the Elder and Yvengi the Younger?
--Eric |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2065 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 22:05:03
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How about Shaund is a legendary explorer who vanished via a one-way portal to Lake Ashane and then starts traveling westwards, across the North, having legendary adventures along the way. Word of those adventures trickle back to the Rus, and eventually he becomes a god, like Valkur, but worshipped from Lake Ashane to Myth Drannor to the North to Ruathym.
Later Yvengi the Elder leads the Rus through the same one-way portal to Lake Ashane. His son, Yvengi the Younger, claims both Rus and Rashemaar lineage and is the forefather of the descendants of the Rus. |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 29 Sep 2019 22:36:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11686 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2019 : 23:48:18
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the idea of the younger and the elder makes a lot of sense with the half-rus/half-rashemi idea, because maybe Yvengi the Elder, as tribal chieftain marries a Rashemi in order to strengthen bonds with their new allies. I will say though, that was a good catch on the mess up with the dragon article. That little nut of jr and sr has been used to solve many a thing in the realms, but it also imminently makes sense too, given how many people name their child after the father or mother (or grandparents) in our own world. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6641 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2019 : 04:35:35
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quote: Originally posted by ericlboyd
Yvengi the Elder and Yvengi the Younger?
--Eric
The GHotR dating is correct here in that it doesn't explicitly state that Yvengi led the Rus in -105 DR. He's first mentioned in -75DR. Like Eric said, there will have to be an elder and younger Yvengi.
Funny that. I already had this noted in my (partial) list of Iron Lords of Rashemen. That will be my fix "when the time comes".
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 30 Sep 2019 04:46:16 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2019 : 21:05:27
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Wow, this discussion is really an early Christmas for me, with the discussion about Rus and Shaundakul.
With Rashemi, and place magic, it was stated in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical,(and in the Starlight & Shadows trilogy by Elaine Cunningham) place magic is actually at least in part derived from Rune Magic:
quote: The Windwalker amulet was created by the Rus to assist in the casting of ancient form of magic known as rune lore and was borne by the group that eventually settled in Rashemen. The Windwalker was handed down for generations, eventually coming into the hands of the Witches of Rashemen. The Witches adapted the artifact's enchantment to store the power of another ancient form of magic that had evolved from rune lore known as place magic.
Rune Lore, as used though the Windwalker amulet a pretty potent form of magic, being able to catch/contain Faerzress (and with that retain her innate drow powers on the surface). With Lolth even specifically using it through manipulating Liriel, to allow Drow to use their innate drow powers on the surface, when carved her rune on Yggdrasil's Child. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2019 : 21:44:17
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Well it's possible that Yggdrasil's Child is an Arakhor placed upon to guard the weave anchor, and possibly merged with it, possibly intentionally. The Grandfather Tree after all, is an Arakhor summoned guard the Hall of Mists and the Nether Scrolls, so it's possible Yggdrasil's Child Arakhor was summoned for a similar task, if possibly by the Fey Creator race/Drine. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2065 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 00:58:56
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Wanted to make sure you had seen the write-up of Taragarth the Bloodbrand in Dragon #74, page 24, and FR4 - The Magister, page 60.
I speculated about the history of Toaridge-at-the-Sun's-Setting in AJA's thread. |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 01 Oct 2019 01:03:13 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2065 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 10:37:48
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I picked 46 DR in relation to 34 Dr. See GHotR. Myy thought was the Netherese might not come out on top. It could be more equal.
Also, collapse was 181 not 191. Sea elves took over the place in 191 DR, 10 years later. I figure most of the coral was grown with magical acceleration. |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
Edited by - ericlboyd on 01 Oct 2019 11:02:08 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2065 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 13:09:47
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I think the realms history has shown that the netherese almost always come out on top except in the face of zealous hatred (the northmen attacking illusk and refusing to give in because they hate magic). The talfir seem mostly peaceable (based on ffolk society) so it's a fair bet to assume that even a few netherese arcanists could dominate a large number of ffolk, even melvair darkhorn on his own carved out a kingdom amid the ffolk.
181 dr might work as the collapse, it's enough time for melvair to flee the island and setup his mini kingdom on gwynneth, I just need to check my dates alongside it to see if there is a clash with anything.
I wonder how many other realms l archive hints have been lost, I found the castle of skulls before it closed but obviously missed sertra.
OK, I updated the Sertra write-up with some detail about the Netherese coming out on top. |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6350 Posts |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2065 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2019 : 13:52:58
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Trying to figure out the best way to reply ...
"Boom! There it is!"
Or
"No one ever expects the Spanish Inquisition ..."
:-) |
-- http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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