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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2019 : 13:59:03

So, onto Oman now.

Oman is even less detailed than Norland. I think canon mentions only Iron keep, Icepeak, thelgar ironhand, and care windlaur.

I'm going to make the inhabitants of Oman a fusion of the northmen of the islands and the illuskans of gnarhelm. So they are strong, hardy, and warlike, but they haven't got a problem with magic and they haven't allowed magic or technology to make them soft.

I'm going to add in a rift near Icepeak where kazgoroth clawed his way out. It will be volcanic and filled with lavamen.

Might add in a chasm in Icepeak that is full of the roars of grond trapped beneath it (but everything thinks it's just the wind).

Also adding in a queen of the firbolg who is a link to the giant queen in 4e.

Other than that there is t much to go on.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2019 : 18:58:20

quote:
She carries a Moonshaevian dirk, honed from obsidian that formed after the explosion of Mount Kasterlak on the Sword Coast during the Spellplague.

I realise its 4e and its not actually lore, its just an idea of how to define the look of a character but its something i can use. I've searched everywhere for mount kasterlak and i dont believe it is mentioned anywhere else so i'm happy to use that as the name of a mountain in the Moonshaes (even though it says "on the sword coast" you could take the Moonshae Isles as part of the Sword Coast region).

Norland seems volcanically active so Mount Kasterlak in Norland is a possibility.

Also noted details of the Leviathan in the Elder Evils book. Its not the same leviathan as the Moonshae Isles, but it is mentioned as lying between the Korinn Archipelago and Waterdeep. This leviathan is a massive sea serpent so large that one of its back spikes is as large as a 3 story tower. It is supposedly ancient (maybe beyond creator races old).

Elder Evils links it to some primordial chaos and it is awoken by an abyssal shard, but perhaps i can rework it into something else - some ancient sarrukh quelzarm egg that was dumped into a Moonwell and grew to monstrous proportions.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2019 : 11:04:32

Polyhedron has an entry about the Moonshaes isles (I think issue 149) where ffolk farmers from cuardin on the North of Gwynneth fight off an excursion of northmen using magic weapons provided by chauntea.

So this supposedly happens when myth drannor is thriving. A very subjective timeframe but I figure that a few decades after myth drannor becomes open to all races is a good time (about 290 dr) unless someone has a better suggestion.

Obviously chauntea has to be changed for Earthmother (The two are used interchangeably in most sourcebooks anyway), and I won't have the magic items sent by the gods necessarily. But cuardin does sound like a phonetic origin for codfin and all the other codbay derivatives that are along the North coast of Gwynneth.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 25 Feb 2019 : 20:52:34

Thinking about the elves as i come to Oman and need to decide what to do with Kadish.

First i read about Winterglen and noted that it was once an elven refuge now home to a band of wizards that slew the llewyrr who lived here.

Sounds like an excellent opportunity to add Kadish as the city present on the northern shores of Gwynneth in an ancient forest that northmen and ffolk alike would avoid. However wizards are not really part of the ffolk or northmen histories of the the Moonshaes. I tried to add them in around 1100 DR, having the ffolk kings hire them to deal with rampant witchcraft, but unfortunately Kadish died out in 867 DR.

It could be that Gnarhelm was covered with forest much like the rest of the Moonshae Isles and when the illuskans arrived in 852 DR, they quickly cut down the trees and slaughtered many of the elves.

Lastly is Oman which is now my least favourite option, which is the city remained hidden and isolated from everyone until the northmen of Oman discovered it and killed them all.

Equally however there is a problem as to why the llewyrr had cities on other islands. The Myrloch Vale is such an ideal home for the elves and has magic that entices them to stay here so i cant imagine anyone would ever leave it.

Also the llewyrr are supposed to resemble high (gold) elves, but have mannerisms like wild elves, and crucially they came from an isolated pocket of Illefarn that was annexed by the Vyshaan Empire. Illefarn at that time was moon and green elves primarily.

So is it possible that multiple migrations of elves into the Moonshae Isles occurred. The origin story of the llewyrr is that they were marooned while travelling west but west was Evermeet which was Vyshaan controlled at the time, and we have a novel mention of gold elves from Myth Drannor travelling to Evermeet when they were shipwrecked. Perhaps the stories got confused

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2019 : 21:21:18

After conversing with the experts (thanks George), there are several options for the llewyrr.

It would appear that the Llewyrrwood was home to a significant number of gold elves, which were magically powerful (normal for gold elves in ancient times) and had more than a few high mages among their number.

The Vyshaan begin attacking Illefarn and the Llewyrr flee west. GHoTR says that a large number of the llewyrr flee, but i'm guessing that is comparative for elves so perhaps 2000, which included a number of surviving high mages.

A huge storm sinks over half the llewyrr fleet and scatters the rest hundreds or thousands of miles off course. I'm imagining the Vyshaan called the storm to sink the secretly escaping llewyrr.

500 llewyrr wash up on the Moonshae Isles and establish synnoria. The high mages weave great magics to hide synnoria from the Vyshaan (and in so doing sacrifice themselves). Perhaps Synnoria was the highmage queen who sacrificed herself and thus gave her name to the realm.

I did find an odd name for gold elves in one realms sourcebook - Sunrise Elves. Perhaps i could use llewyrr as meaning sunrise in an ancient elven dialect.

I need a few elven houses to populate synnoria. Some possibilities from the north include
House Hyshaanth - has a branch in Siluvanede that is all but extinct (its surviving member is now a senior member of the Eldreth Veluuthra
House Evanara - Detailed in Evermeet, no mention of origin but is wise and insightful so could work.
House Raerdrimne - Detailed in Evermeet, i chose this one because House Raerdrimne hasnt had a child born in centuries which is something common to Synnoria - perhaps an old curse of the Vyshaan.

Going to add in later migrations of elves from Siluvanede, Eaerlann, Illefarn (2, 3, 4 - there were a lot of Illefarns), to account for extra elven settlements on the Moonshaes (My Kamerynn makes elves never want to leave Synnoria)

Also noted that Evermeet has its own leviathan - Hamnuatha. So i'm going to give the leviathan of the Moonshaes a similar name, while the Leviathan from Elder Evils can be called just The Leviathan.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 27 Feb 2019 : 20:34:28

So i found this quote

quote:
A majority of Illefarn's sun and moon elves went by ship to Evermeet during the long Crown Wars, where they had a profound influence on that island's culture, religion, philosophy, and arts. Some elves even say that Illefarn founded all that Evermeet would later become. Some moon elves migrated to Evereska, where they had much the same effect. Most wood elves fled south during the height of the Fifth Crown War or west to the Moonshaes. The dwarves scattered, most heading north to found their own enclaves and join their brethren in battling the orc hordes that poured forth in an endless tide

Gives me lots of ideas for Evermeet.

Does anyone know if there is a date of first settlement for Evermeet (i know it was created in -17600 DR) and if there was any communication with the mainland.

I'm asking because originally Faerun included all the continents joined together. then the sundering broke that land apart and created Evermeet, but it worked backwards and forwards in time so the elves would never have known it worked. They cast a ritual to create a sanctuary and for everyone else nothing appeared to happen, only the casters would be aware what they did and why (for everyone else it had always been this way) and most high magic rituals of this magnitude inflict death or madness upon the casters.

Then there is no mention of evermeet in the histories until -9800 DR when the Vyshaan Empire begin colonisation and settlement of the isle, which i presume to be the first mention of any attempted settlement.

I'm asking myself why such a gap and the only thing i can think of is nobody knew it had been created except for the casters, and they probably became babbling nutters who spouted prophecies and words (like Evermeet).

I'm guessing that millennia later the vyshaan found out about it (perhaps illefarn had the kiira of the high mages who cast the sundering and so when the Vyshaan conquered illefarn they discovered the prophecies and figured it out). Then the Vyshaan Empire begin building a huge fleet to try and find and settle the island, but the Illefarni elves in their ghetto escape and steal the fleet.

The Vyshaan Empire use their high mages to form a great storm that devastates over half the fleeing illefarni elves (mostly the ships containing the sun elves) and scatter the other ships.

Some moon elves and sun elven ships reach evermeet. The survivors of the wrecked ships land on the Moonshaes. Other lost ships end up anywhere else. A century later the Vyshaan rebuild their fleet and colonise Evermeet (cue much conflict on Evermeet).

That accounts for Illefarni sun elves and moon elves settling evermeet and how sun elves get to the Moonshaes. All i need is to account for wood elves arriving in the Moonshae Isles around -9000 DR (during the fifth crown wars). Now i'm assuming Wood Elves actually means wood elves and not wild elves (the 1e campaign setting referred to wood elves as wild elves). Wood elves are formed from the mixing of other elven groups and occured in the wake of the crown wars but im guessing also during.

So Keltormir and Illefarn emerge intact so i will assume they are much less damaged than the others (occupied rather than slaughtered). Shantel Othreier is destroyed and so is Aryvandaar so i'm going to guess that much devastation occurred in the destruction of those realms and many elves made homeless and banded together giving rise to wood elves.

I'm thinking that wood elves from Aryvandaar is slightly more interesting, they may not be welcome in Synnoria and may not even be able to find it, so establish another city on a different island (Kadish perhaps).

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6643 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2019 : 01:09:15

I think you need to read/skim Elaine's "Evermeet" novel.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
382 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2019 : 01:38:06

Another possible source of elven migration to the Moonshaes is the portal that is mentioned in one of the novels. This is designed as an escape route for elves on the mainland in times of great peril (e.g. getting attacked by Ityak-Ortheel, the Elf-Eater).

IIRC, Synnoria acts as a kind of way-station for elves escaping to Evermeet via this portal system. Perhaps some of them decide to stay rather than continuing on to Evermeet.

Edited by - BenN on 28 Feb 2019 01:38:47

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2019 : 08:29:20

I'm trying to psyche myself up to read the novel but it was so hard doing the Moonshaes trilogy when you have no interest in the story only the possibility of some lore (of which there was little in the first 100 pages of book 1).

Thankfully Elaine said recently that the book should not be taken as historical fact. If I remember it rightly much of the ancient history is drawn from the memory of an old elf matriarch and so could be wrong for several reasons

1 - after 10000 years her memory is cloudy (I forget or misremember things that happened 10 years ago)
2 - her interpretation of events is from her point of view and traumatic events change be seen in different ways by different people.
3 - she could have been lying to protect or glorify herself.

So I will read it but I'm still happy to mess around with it a bit, especially if it conflicts with other sources.

As for the fey alamtine and ityak ortheel. I never liked the implementation of that story arc. I'm more inclined to have the portal be created purely to ease travel from faerun to evermeet (especially with so many ships being sunk enroute). Mayhaps the portal was keyed/closed when the ffolk came to the Moonshaes.

I do wonder exactly where the portal is located in the Moonshaes.

BenN
Senior Scribe

Japan
382 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2019 : 09:41:17

Elaine's 'Evermeet' is night & day better than the Moonshae novels. There is a ton of lore, and as far as I'm concerned is the closest thing to Tolkien that there is among the FR novels (including Ed's).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2019 : 10:07:50

Well i'm reading evermeet, up to the point where the elves arrive on Faerun.

Given more recent developments in history there are a lot of problems between Evermeet and the current history of Toril.

Evermeet implies only 100 elves come from Faerie to Toril but the lore implies there were multiple incursions of elves into Faerun. Evermeet also implies that Tintageer was a gold elf dominated land and there were other elven lands (Shalario Moonflower was a northerner and a merchant who arrived in Tintageer just before the flood - arrived from where, northern implies from lands north - ergo other elven lands).

When the elves arrive they are immediately afraid of dragons but i'm not aware that the plane of Faerie has dragons (although i've already decided that faerie dragons are merely a small material plane manifestation of a much larger creature on the faerie plane).

I'm wondering if the fey persuaded multiple groups of elves from different lands in Faerie to come to Toril by annihilating their homelands and forcing them to flee to other lands (manipulating the magic they cast to escape to send them to Toril).

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6643 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2019 : 11:28:07

Elaine has long stated that the �historical� parts of Evermeet are narratives from sources such as Danilo and aren�t an accurate reflection of the history of the elves in the Realms from a date/event point of view.

� George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 02 Mar 2019 : 15:34:40

Very true, but it's got me wondering how did the fey persuade elves to migrate to faerun. Kidnapping is likely to be of limited success (when lots of people start disappearing the elves would get suspicious), bribery wouldn't work on the rich and powerful, so that leaves a forced migration.

Crucially there are no elves in faerie now (unless you count eladrin of 4e) so the migration was pretty effective.

I'm wondering if the fey wanted the elves out of faerie (they build big cities and that's not very fey) and an army was needed to combat the dragons and giants that were destroying toril.

So causing catastrophes that force the elves to leave in one go is a damned effective way of removing the elves and forcing them to faerun. Perhaps tintageer was the last.

Just some idle musings that are unrelated to the Moonshaes. It's quite a good book, even though I am skimming it, it's still enjoyable.

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 02 Mar 2019 15:42:34

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2019 : 19:26:21

I'm nearly halfway through Evermeet. A nice read by all accounts.

The more i read the books the more i am happier with my own interpretation that much of the distant elven documented history happened in a different version of history to what is currently running on Toril.

So elves arrive on Toril which has a single continent. The elves of Tintageer arrive and set in motion a chain of events that ultimately results in the single continent being shattered by a hugely powerful high magic ritual.

This magic reaches backwards and forwards in time, and thus eliminates the original history involving Occidian and Shalarion and Atornash, and instead creates this alternate history where the elven nations of Aryvandaar, Shantel Othreier, Illythiir, Syorpiir, all come into being. The lands that Atornash and Shalarion were once centred on no longer exist so a new history had to be made that was essentially reality's way of healing the damage the elves caused by casting the Sundering.

More importantly, if 4e is to be believed the Faerie Plane is a coexistent analogy of the material plane but one filled with positive energy (opposed by the shadow plane filled with negative energy). Thus when the elves on Faerun cast the Sundering they actually caused the tidal wave that annihilated Tintageer so many millennia ago (the magic spreading backwards and forwards in time and causing analogous events on Faerie). Its kind of hinted at in the novel when Starleaf is reminded of the story of Tintageer as she witnesses the events of the Sundering.

Now i just need to read about what happens to Starleaf and the Tree of Souls because that would likely hold the key as to who knew about Evermeet's location.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 03 Mar 2019 : 19:41:53

Well impatiently i searched the novel for Starleaf and Tree of Souls and was disappointed to find no further mention.

So first thought is did Starleaf remain on Evermeet with the Tree of Souls after casting the Sundering. If so then how did any other elves find out about Evermeet (only she saw it - and i dont do the god think, getting a vision of an island in the ocean isnt going to mean much).

So either Starleaf was sent back to Faerun or some remnants of the casting remained on Faerun - perhaps taking the form of gemstone acorns that contained fragments of the souls of the high mages. By communing with these gems the elves could learn of Evermeet, but only by collecting many of them together could they learn its location.

I'll have to spend some time developing the idea, but the Evermeet novel seems to me to be the history of a version of Toril that is no longer real (having been eliminated by the actions of the elves themselves).

Two hundred elves heading to Evermeet does not seem likely, and the pleasant portrayal of Aryvandaar is wrong on so many levels. But if its an alternate version i can rewrite much of it (200 nobles surviving the trip would happily explain the numbers quoted).

In summary, nice read, i've gotten what i need after 76 pages, plenty of ideas to support an alternate reality vision which is what i'm making anyway.

So the Tower they cast the Sundering in can be somewhere in the middle of the ocean (the other end of the gate used by the shalarin might work), or perhaps on Evermeet itself. Atornash i'm tempted to place in Dambrath in the Bay of Dolphins. Shalarion will now be strewn across the ocean floor. Elves in Maztica i can now explain by those on the portion of land ripped from the one continent.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2019 : 14:19:06

Realms bestiary II contains a blurb about wereseals in the Moonshaes and Angus macOdrum and his wereseal kin being related to the nobility of tir faoi thoinn. I've included this into Gwynneth but the last paragraph always puzzled me.

It says that the northmen think that wereseals steal their children and eat them.

Could never figure out what to do with them until I stumbled across the old monster manuals and the seawolf, a lycanthropes creature that has the body of a seal and the head of a wolf.

Then I noted the settlement of seawolf in norheim and I've not got a Jarl of norheim known as the seawolf, who raided Gwynneth and got exposed to lycanthropy (but not infected) become a quasi lycanthrope of sorts (read about it in a pdf article for. Wotc I think). Centuries later one of his descendents was attacked by one of the darlmoon and he transformed into the first seawolf.

These seawolves live mostly in caves and tunnels beneath norheim and prey upon the northmen.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2019 : 21:21:18

So why is Corwell called Corwell.

There is a Moonwell outside Corwell, which based upon the powers of this moonwell i'm going to say is a major moonwell (people can travel and talk through it) despite its small size.

So we have Cor as a derivative of some word or name, and well after the moonwell.

After Eric's advice of using existing creatures in D&D lore i'm tempted to use the fey deity Caoimhin who appears to be a small, ugly, brownie like creature that likes to cause a nuisance (and bizarrely can only inhale food through its nose).
I figure this creature haunts, or haunted the moonwell when the ffolk arrived, and perhaps offered advice to the ffolk in this strange land (dont go into the forest or the mountains, etc).

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6643 Posts

Posted - 04 Mar 2019 : 23:35:14

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well impatiently i searched the novel for Starleaf and Tree of Souls and was disappointed to find no further mention.

So first thought is did Starleaf remain on Evermeet with the Tree of Souls after casting the Sundering. If so then how did any other elves find out about Evermeet (only she saw it - and i dont do the god think, getting a vision of an island in the ocean isnt going to mean much).

So either Starleaf was sent back to Faerun or some remnants of the casting remained on Faerun - perhaps taking the form of gemstone acorns that contained fragments of the souls of the high mages. By communing with these gems the elves could learn of Evermeet, but only by collecting many of them together could they learn its location.

I'll have to spend some time developing the idea, but the Evermeet novel seems to me to be the history of a version of Toril that is no longer real (having been eliminated by the actions of the elves themselves).

Two hundred elves heading to Evermeet does not seem likely, and the pleasant portrayal of Aryvandaar is wrong on so many levels. But if its an alternate version i can rewrite much of it (200 nobles surviving the trip would happily explain the numbers quoted).

In summary, nice read, i've gotten what i need after 76 pages, plenty of ideas to support an alternate reality vision which is what i'm making anyway.

So the Tower they cast the Sundering in can be somewhere in the middle of the ocean (the other end of the gate used by the shalarin might work), or perhaps on Evermeet itself. Atornash i'm tempted to place in Dambrath in the Bay of Dolphins. Shalarion will now be strewn across the ocean floor. Elves in Maztica i can now explain by those on the portion of land ripped from the one continent.

Yes, if you want a head-scratching exercise in geography, try and read "Evermeet" in that context. And yes, Aryvandaar is portrayed in a very peculiar light given the lore. The strange part is that the novel was released in August 1998 and the Cormanthyr sourcebook in March 1998. While I know Elaine had likely written the novel a way before the publishing date, it's a fair indictment on TSR Books v. TSR games to have so little communication.

Not a surprise really. Looking back, I've always considered TSR/WotC Books department to be the greatest villain of the Realms!

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2019 : 08:30:27

Well I've never really read the novels (evermeet is the second one I managed more than a few chapters.
Everything I've heard about most of the novels depicts people and places different from the sourcebooks and how i imagine them acting.
It does destroy the immersion and is why I have avoided them for so long. Even Evermeet was not particularly lore filled, it mentioned a few locations and a few people but gave little insight into those places, choosing instead to focus exclusively on the story. However I am aware that is the style of the writing at the time (Mr Martin was told repeatedly thay his wandering style would not work) and is the style that wotc wanted.

I don't know if I can continue reading the novels for lore, there is just so little extraneous lore in them it's almost not worth the time.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2019 : 20:00:59

So winterglen forest was home to an elven city of sorts before being conquered by a cabal of wizards.

I've decided the huge forest is home to the wood elven orphans of the vyshaan empire. After the crown wars the survivors of aryvandaar away from the high forest became homeless wanderers (they were those who occupied foreign lands when the last crown war started).
Persecuted by those they had once conquered they wandered for centuries without a home, eventually their children would mix with wild and moon elves and sure wood elves.
Finally they left faerun and fled in secret to the Moonshaes isles.
Shamed by their past they never approached the elves of synnoria and instead established Winter's Garden (Augilanvur) which has since become corrupted to Winters Glen.
The wood elves still persist today in secret. They do not like intruders and were responsible for the deaths of many ffolk including chief Taylor, when they attempted to venture north.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2019 : 20:17:12

A random thing that is bothering me.

Should a reference to a subrace of people be capitalised or not.

So the llewyrr or Llewyrr, is it a ffolk warrior or Ffolk warrior, the Northmen or the northmen (although i call them norl after a 4e find).

Any thoughts or preferences.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2019 : 21:04:54

Just had a random thought.

Angus MacOdrum in the Realms Bestiary is noted as being either a powerful wizard and warrior who fought off a sahuagin incursion, or a fraud who was cursed.

Clan MacOdrum contains aquatic elves and half elves, and there are a number of wereseals among their number.

I've not been able to figure out a satisfactory explanation for why. Then i remembered the regalia of the High King is called the Crown of the Isles (i think, i might be making that up), that could be a watery explanation and link to the aquatic elves.

I'm thinking that the crown of the isles was lost when the illuskans seized northern Alaron and High King Dolan tried to stop them. What if High King Dolan was killed by sahuagin and the crown of the isles was stolen.
Then the crown becomes part of the treasure of Kressilac and a rather ambitious prince is wearing the crown when he raids Callidyrr. Angus MacOdrum slays the sahuagin prince (by accident or intent, doesnt matter) and takes the crown of the isles.

The sahuagin pursue Angus, trying to recover "their" crown. He flees across the Moonshae Isles, discovering that the crown was made by the aquatic elves of Nindrol and grants him the ability to breathe underwater and special status in Nindrol.
Taking advantage of that status he beds a number of princesses (causing their disgrace) and is forced to leave for Corwell with his progeny and a curse.

I have a volcanic eruption damaging much of Nindrol (dont know if i made that up or not), but that eruption could result in the loss of the crown.

I know in a 4e source that mentioned a crown in Umberlee's Blindfold that was cursed and turned wearers into undead. Perhaps it could be the same crown.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2019 : 20:48:42

Still reading Darkwalker.
So much about the novel that annoys the bejeesus out of me.

A few notes on bits of lore.

Newt is 784 years old, which means he was born around 560/561 DR. Why on earth does the dragon live in the Fens when he is quite obviously starved of attention in such a remote region filled only with monsters with no sense of humour.

I'm thinking perhaps if Newt is the guardian or related to the guardian of the Fens of the Fallon, but then i've also got faerie dragons as just a tiny manifestation of proper dragons that live on the Faeree Plane.

Next is the Big Cave. What on earth is the Big Cave. Its a huge stone fortress filled with Firbolg and other monsters. It has stout walls, stone gargoyles, even sewage pipes, all sized for very large individuals.

The firbolg that live their certainly didnt build it. The stonework might be dwarven, but its sized for giants, it could be ancient more advanced firbolg built the fortress.

The odd fish/reptile they fought in the sewers i'm thinking i might make it be a marl. I've got a few of them in the Korinn Archipelago and i'm thinking that i might have them occupy underground tunnels and caverns across the Moonshae Isles.

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6643 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 : 15:25:07

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Still reading Darkwalker.
So much about the novel that annoys the bejeesus out of me.

A few notes on bits of lore.

Newt is 784 years old, which means he was born around 560/561 DR. Why on earth does the dragon live in the Fens when he is quite obviously starved of attention in such a remote region filled only with monsters with no sense of humour.

I'm thinking perhaps if Newt is the guardian or related to the guardian of the Fens of the Fallon, but then i've also got faerie dragons as just a tiny manifestation of proper dragons that live on the Faeree Plane.

Next is the Big Cave. What on earth is the Big Cave. Its a huge stone fortress filled with Firbolg and other monsters. It has stout walls, stone gargoyles, even sewage pipes, all sized for very large individuals.

The firbolg that live their certainly didnt build it. The stonework might be dwarven, but its sized for giants, it could be ancient more advanced firbolg built the fortress.

The odd fish/reptile they fought in the sewers i'm thinking i might make it be a marl. I've got a few of them in the Korinn Archipelago and i'm thinking that i might have them occupy underground tunnels and caverns across the Moonshae Isles.

I always assumed it was the earlier, non-corrupted and debased firbolg who built it.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 : 15:43:22

I've certainly got those, I've tried developing an entire civilisation for them in the distant past.

However, something that puzzles me is the treasure hoard. It's many times the wealth of the ffolk kings, it contains crystal chalices, jeweller rings, chokers, a huge pile of coins.

All these things seem a bit out of reach of the firbolg. I get that they got the sword of cymrych high from the high king they slew, and the torque probably came from a druid, maybe even a cup or ring from passing merchants, but there sheer number of things indicates it is out of reach of the kings of Cordell, even if they spent centuries acquiring it I'm not sure they could amass that much wealth.

Then there is the purpose of the fortress and it's location.

Its in the middle of a swamp and it's near the Moonwell, possibly the major Moonwell of the myrloch vale. I'm not sure the elves would be happy at such a place being built.

I guess I'm trying to rationalise the obvious use of a fantasy trope. Friend gets taken by monsters, heroes go to monsters lair and discover great magic.

The fortress is not explained or described in any way which really bugs me (going from the story it's a big stone square with 2 doors which is an awful design).

I'm thinking of putting the fortress next to the highland mountains (Where they firbolg mine the coal) and make it a former exposed Dragon lair which had the fortress built atop it. That would explain the huge hoard (dragons don't have to get their treasure locally).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 : 18:54:53

As a further thought, how do brutish creatures survive in islands where space and resources are limited and what use/value would they have for gold.

What I mean is, firbolg do not make anything, they do not farm, they do not craft much beyond fir skins and branch clubs.

On the mainland there are any numbers of enclaves of creatures willing to trade with creatures regardless of their origin or nature. So a brutish monster can happily trade it's stolen loot in return for food and goods as long as it can control it's murderous urges long enough to trade.

On an island those enclaves are reduced in number and spread if they exist at all. Yes there is the underdark but that will not have a connection to every mountain on every island.

So these firbolg have accumulated all this wealth but for what purpose, who can they trade it with. They are in the middle of the myrloch vale, the ffolk and llewyrr and dwarves won't trade with them (because of their murdering and looting) so what would the firbolg do with all that loot. It explains why they have such a pile (they can't spend it) but it does not explain why they would value and collect it in the first place (they can't spend it).

Just a random thought.

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 : 19:08:21

Gold fever is an odd illness.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 : 19:19:32

That's true, but gold fever is used too often for d&d creatures. Humans suffer from it obviously as greed is a very human trait. Dwarves suffer from it, a holdover from Tolkien dwarves no doubt. Halflings suffer from it with their tendency to milder anything valuable that is within the reach of twitchy fingers. Dragons have it to explain why these creatures hoard such huge volumes of wealth.

To have all vaguely intelligent creatures suffer from an attraction to a shiny but otherwise useless material seems a bit too far.
Goblins and orcs represent the very worst of human characteristics so of course theur greed and jealousy traits are magnified, but these firbolg are giants.

Giants seem to me like noble creatures with honour (in general). The firbolg are regenerate versions, barely able to clothe themselves, but would they suffer from the same irrational lust for shiny stuff that other magpie like monsters share.

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4211 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 : 20:41:20

My first post was a bit of sarcasm; but thinking more deeply...

Perhaps there is a magical compulsion affixed to gold. In a universe where magic is real; perhaps the gold itself is a quasi-magical substance that creatures are simply drawn to. Perhaps the same with all Noble Metals...

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2019 : 20:57:06

I can certainly get behind that as an idea.

I think i still need a black market economy of sorts for evil creatures elsewise an army of evil firbolg would not survive.

Maybe the hallucinations that Thorin experiences in the Hobbit are a fairly decent approximation of what happens to people who accumulate too much gold. I reckon i could create a new monster that lives in the astral or ethereal that is attracted to gold and possesses those nearby (to get them to acquire more gold).

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