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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2019 : 11:40:05

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Moving on to Norland.

(...)

I've found details about the Knights of the Storm, a band of insurgents that follow the Storm Knight (identity unknown) who have agents on the Moonshae Isles (I figure Norheim).

(...)

Where are these from? Never heard about them...

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2019 : 12:15:14

It's from a pdf I downloaded called the everwinking eye which I think Ed wrote back in the day on the wotc site.

The knights of the storm makes only a single mention of having a presence on the Moonshaes isles so I get a lot of freedom. They sound a bit like talos cultists and I reckon I could link their actions to hergatha the storm maiden. After all hergatha is a great way to attract followers to the stormknight banner and cause chaos in the Moonshaes.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11690 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2019 : 17:26:07

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well I'm using a non god centric model which means the religion can't just appear it has to flow from person to person.

Now the illuskans could bring some of those gods to the Moonshaes when they created gnarhelm but I'm not entirely certain all or any of those gods would have been present in stornanter in 850 DR.

I don't see the northmen as being particularly religious. There are sales who will undoubtedly have stories of the gods, but they would be old gods that have long fallen out of favour.

Wasn't valkur a god of the inner sea.

Valkur is specifically called out in some products as a god of the northmen (the recent SCAG does a big to do over him). He's also noted in P&P as being known along the sword coast and his "origins" are supposed to be a captain of Mintarn who challenged Umberlee and won "centuries ago". Mintarn is nestled right amongst the Moonshaes. From a "viking" viewpoint, he "looks" like a storm god (i.e. Thor).

Helm is also known to the area, and as a god of defense would fit well, but the reason I mention him is that he's effectively Heimdahl (he is a guardian who stands at the top of a rainbow bridge that leads to the land of the gods....). I picture Tyr for similar reasons. I only mention Hoar because visually he could work (as the doombringer, and as a god of vengeance).

I know you don't get into the gods much and you don't want to mirror real world a lot, but its a pantheistic world, and thus there's going to be a lot of religions in any area, so in my view, even a modest size island will have several temples. Heck, I live in a tiny town in the south, and there's at least 20 churches here. I see temples in the realms to be larger/more consolidated than our world though, as the "flock" is going to be more willing to travel a distance for the services of the church.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2019 : 18:10:58

Good find on valkur and maintain, can't believe I missed the bit about mintarn. I shall add valkur as someone they appease, ancestor reverance is a theme I think fits the northmen.

Still not convinced on helm or tyr though. They are northmen, not Vikings so I see no need to approximate real world gods into their society. Praying to their dead father or grandfather for strength makes sense, especially if he was a renowned warrior, but some idea worshipped by the weak mainlanders doesn't fit for me.

Umberlee on the other hand is just the name for a force of nature. In fact if I just remove the name and make her the She Bitch then they can appease her however they wish with no formal religion or tie to the faerunian religion at all.

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2019 : 18:20:37

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

It's from a pdf I downloaded called the everwinking eye which I think Ed wrote back in the day on the wotc site.
(...)

Found it, the everwinking eye is a column at the polyhedron magazine. This one os from polyhedron 95.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 07 Feb 2019 : 18:36:29

Apologies I only have a pdf called the Complete Everwinking Eye that I can't quite recall where I got it from.

Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1600 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2019 : 09:36:35

No need to apologize! This collection seems to be quite nice!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2019 : 12:15:27

I'm guessing mercenary companies are probably the only organisation that would have any chance of lasting a long time in northmen society.

The Jarl can allow / instruct his nobles to raid certain targets. Those nobles will have a number of loyal warriors who will lead the raid. Others join the raid and pay a fee to join (or if they are famous they are allowed for free) on the promise of an equal share of the raid takings.
Mercenaries would provide much needed muscle on a raid for choice / dangerous targets.

I'm imagining that certain famous Marks or raiders would provide patronage for prestigious raiding companies that might survive for many decades if successful.

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
2066 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2019 : 18:34:33

Random obscure Moonshae reference I happened to stumble across.
There once was an elven city of Kadish in the Moonshae Isles.
Elfshadow, page 247.

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2019 : 18:56:32

Cheers for the pointer, based upon your advice in Illefarn Anew i am searching novels for existing lore but i'm really struggling with it because the lore is really sparse in the novels i'm reading as it focuses (as expected) upon furthering the storyline rather than hidden lore and ancient history.

I shall have to see if Kadish ties to anything in the sourcebooks (even a vaguely phonetic tie would be enough).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2019 : 20:56:30

Found another one in Lost Library of Cormanthyr.

One Gyynyth Skyreach was transferring a library from Myth Drannor to Evermeet across the Trackless Sea by ship. She never reached her destination and legends suppose the ships washed up on the shores of the Moonshae Isles and have yet to be discovered.

One thing that strikes me immediately is Gyyneth is very very very very similar to Gwynneth, far too close to be a coincidence. I realise that actually the ship ended up somewhere else but Gyyneth went several times to Evermeet according to the novel. Could she have led the ffolk to the island and then left. Legend took her name and mixed it with perhaps a woman named Gwyn who was daughter to the Archduke but who died shortly after landing.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2019 : 08:35:21

Pondering on where to place kadish. I could be dull and put it on Gwynneth where it would be easiest to place as very few humans venture into the myrloch vale and so no one would notice a previously unmentioned city.

Or I could place it on one of the other islands, but it needs to be one that is relatively unexplored.

My initial thought is Oman. I have had Oman as off limits to humans for a while but gradually settled while the elves retreated to synnoria. until about 600 DR when the northmen arrived (they don't listen to the elves).

I figure the elves wouldn't want people around the place where grond and kazgoroth were imprisoned. I could easily rejig things so that the elves kept hold of Oman until the northmen arrived and then waged war against the elves until kadish was destroyed around 900 DR.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2019 : 10:11:36

The other alternative is for kadish to be in Gnarhelm which was ffolk controlled but doesn't appear to have been well settled before the illuskans arrived in 852 DR.

I don't think Kadish would have been anywhere else because all the other islands were well populated by ffolk or northmen by 800 DR and so it would be difficult to hide another elven city on such a small island (I'm assuming it remained hidden because it has never been mentioned before).

In leaning towards Oman at the moment purely because it is so undetailed and a hidden elven city that the northmen eradicate by chopping down the forest would add some much needed history to the island and allow for development of ancient ruins and unleashed evils.

There appear to have been many migrations of elves to the Moonshaes so perhaps kadish was the original home of a different migration than the llewyrr.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2019 : 21:00:35

Well i've checked every novel for the word Moonshae and not come up with much. Writers seem to associate the Moonshaes with stray mentions of odd alcoholic beverages - peach liqueur, spring wine, whiskey, mead, ale.

I've got a Carreigh Macumail who i believe comes from one of the western isles of the Moonshaes which pretty much limits him to Moray.

I did note Bran Skorlsun spent the last 40 years hunting false and renegade harpers in the Moonshae Isles. That implies either a lot of renegades and false harpers or that they were exceptionally skilled at evading a master harper (or both). Either way the implication of this is that some nefarious organisation has a plan for the Moonshaes and the false harpers were part of it. Furthermore many or perhaps all of the mentions of the Harpers by Elminster in the Moonshaes sourcebook might have been false/renegade harpers

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6643 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2019 : 03:12:15

Risen Cult of Bane subverting Harpers?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2019 : 03:18:31

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I did note Bran Skorlsun spent the last 40 years hunting false and renegade harpers in the Moonshae Isles. That implies either a lot of renegades and false harpers or that they were exceptionally skilled at evading a master harper (or both). Either way the implication of this is that some nefarious organisation has a plan for the Moonshaes and the false harpers were part of it. Furthermore many or perhaps all of the mentions of the Harpers by Elminster in the Moonshaes sourcebook might have been false/renegade harpers

Where does it say he spent 40 years in the Moonshaes? When we are introduced to him, he's in Waterdeep, and has been following Arilyn for a while.

I also don't see that it follows that the existence of false Harpers means they're tied to some nefarious plot.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2019 : 05:55:07

I'll try and find the page later. It's one of those reading between the lines things. Bran is a master Harper and obviously super skilled, he wouldn't be sent for some mundane task so it would have to be rather important. A random lot of renegade with no connections to anyone just hiding out in the Moonshaes is rather pointless whereas a group of rogues pretending to be Harper's to spread false news and destabilise the region and allow an evil organisation into power in virgin territory might require a stealthy and dedicated individual like bran

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2019 : 13:01:37

I do like the idea of a few false Harper's hiding among the renegade who are risen cult of bane agents and who assassinate or attempt to assassinate king Kendrick and king Kimball in 1346 DR.

Renegade Harper's would be those who dislike hiding and manipulating and instead believe they should be actively trying to topple tyrants and slay baddies. Basically a few Harper extremists that chafe under the rule of berdusk and flee to the Moonshaes (which seems like a haven for those trying to hide).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2019 : 10:30:46

So i've been pondering song dragons and the Moonshaes. They appear to have a special interest in the Moonshae Isles (they have more mentions than anywhere else, and waterdeep mentions a song dragon looking to return to the Moonshaes to find a mate).

Now Ed has intimated that the song dragons are attracted to the wards around waterdeep (as well as the humans). I've been making the Moonshae Isles one massive magically warded prison that bathes the entire islands in a soothing magic/music. That should be enough to explain the concentration of song dragons.

What i'm not enriely sure on is what a song dragon is. I know in D&D it is a half human half dragon but that is not Ed's original vision. I'm imagining that a song dragon is actually just one particular type of half dragon, or weredragon (i would never describe Mornagauth as a song dragon).

I've made the Faeree Plane into a coexistant plane (with the Material) much like the Ethereal. Or at least it was coexistant, various catastrophes shunted it out of alignment with the Material Plane so its coexistance was patchy.

Much like the ghosts of the Ethereal Plane, i allow some fey to possess mortals. What if a song dragon is the result of a union between a human possessed by a Faeree Dragon coupling with another human.

Last thought is how to song dragons procreate. I'm imagining they couple with humans or dragons, but all song dragons are female.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2019 : 10:43:16

Noted a curious thing in Norland.

The Southern Jotunhammer Mountains are known as Westlook to the ffolk but the elves name it Eilyr Dyrr.
I doubt Eilyr Dyrr exists in any elven lexicon, it looks far too celtic to me. So i looked it up and found an approximation to it that translated as "Most Treasured".
The mountains themselves are full of gem mines but i doubt the elves would be concerned with plundering such resources from the earth so i've trying to decide why a mountain range would be named as such by the elves.

My first thought was to place Kadish there but that city would not survive until 867 DR surrounded by firbolg and northmen.

However i'm wondering if the elves might have setup a magic that guides ships through the strait between Norland and Moray and allow the elves of Evermeet to get in and out of the Moonshae Sea with ease (the name of the straight between Norland and Moray is known as the Trackless Strait).

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2019 : 20:59:58

Anyone know Cordell's first name?

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2019 : 21:44:18

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Anyone know Cordell's first name?

Some call him.... Tim.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 13 Feb 2019 : 21:49:19

I was expecting someone to say Bruce, but Tim is just as good.

If he hasn't got a name I was going to go with a Bruce derivative like Brice

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2019 : 10:05:27

So, song dragons were originally going to be the result of experiments or cross breeding.

I might go with this original premise. All i need is the name of a fey type dragon (i.e. a dragon from the fey planes) to act as the ancestor. Anyone know the name of a fey dragon faerie lord.

Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1265 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2019 : 10:50:17

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I do like the idea of a few false Harper's hiding among the renegade who are risen cult of bane agents and who assassinate or attempt to assassinate king Kendrick and king Kimball in 1346 DR.

Renegade Harper's would be those who dislike hiding and manipulating and instead believe they should be actively trying to topple tyrants and slay baddies. Basically a few Harper extremists that chafe under the rule of berdusk and flee to the Moonshaes (which seems like a haven for those trying to hide).

Brings me to a sore point of me that in the Code the Harpers sourcebook from 2nd edition and the Curse of the Shadowmage Harper novel, we get told that renegade Harpers are hunted and killed off rather mercilessly and they have specific agents to do this like Bran and the half-drow in the novel Curse of the Shadow Mage.

But the Harper agent in Eflshadow, who is guilty of regicide(!) and the deaths of 20 awesome Harpers and the framing of an awesome Harper agent (Arilyn) is not executed because reasons (contrivance). Sigh.

Makes me not like Elfshadow to this day.

Edited by - Seravin on 14 Feb 2019 10:51:33

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2019 : 11:09:50

Well novels still aren't my thing, but it's good for the odd name and a background event (like Cordell nearly dying on the Moonshaes isles, or renegade Harper's that now allows me to expand the bane operations).

If I ever get to make my own alternate of evermeet or the sword coast then I will probably do things a bit different. I'm getting the feeling that the Harper's have been infiltrated by some secret evil and that's why the original Harper's (storm, elminster, etc) keep their distance.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 14 Feb 2019 : 13:39:23

Found some fey deity called nagaithe or something like that which I can use as the ancestor of song dragons.

His possession of an elven woman and subsequent coupling with an elven male resulted in the first song dragons. I could even make it that the male had been injured by kazgoroth and his lingering taint resulted in all the male song dragons being twisted and malformed.

Perhaps the only male song dragons were from this first coupling and their fey,elven heritage makes them immortal (limit the number to 7 male song dragons).

All other song dragons are due to faerie Dragon possession of others and subsequent coupling which gave rise to female song dragons. And then female and male song dragons can get together to produce more song dragons or female song dragons can get together with humans to produce half dragons with limited shapechange capability.

AJA
Senior Scribe

USA
747 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 : 00:03:24

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I was expecting someone to say Bruce, but Tim is just as good.

And here I was going to go with A Boy Called Sue....

Remember, in the Realms many people only have a single name. It is entirely possible that he is just "Cordell."

AJA
YAFRP

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 : 07:37:28

That is very true, although having achieved a title of general before sailing to maztica one could assume he is of noble birth and with established nobilities in most countries dating back many centuries it is probable he would have a family name to signify (or even falsify) his relation to nobility which is often a requirement to achievement and station in feudal era societies.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6351 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2019 : 21:00:58

So a few things i noticed about Norland.

1 - The Jotunhammer Mountains are jagged peaks separated by deep ravines and those ravines are filled with rivers of ice which move constantly exposing ravines.
2 - White dragons in the tallest northwestern peaks of the range. A dozen white dragons lair with an ancient matriarch in the tallest peak.
3 - Frost giants dwell in the northern range and closely resemble the northmen
4 - Gem mines in the southern jotunhammer range filled with fell monsters
5 - White and blue dragons are flying around the southern range and possibly lair in those mountains.
The southern range is known as Eilyr Dyrr to the elves, and the Westlook Peaks to the Ffolk.
6 - Ancient glaciers.

I already linked the frost giants to the northmen (they used to be fire giants but in my version giants adapt to new environments within a few generations - except hill giants who are tainted). These giants came with the northmen from Tuern and Gundarlun.

For the white dragon matriarch i have a few options from the wyrms of the north articles and also from Eric's Illefarn Anew.

I'm wondering if i can expand a bit more on ancient elven presence in this island, they were on the Moonshae Isles for several thousand years before giants and dwarves arrived. Perhaps the Jotunhammer Mountains hold lodes of gems precious to the elves / Leshay and the moving glaciers dig them up from the mountains and deposit them on he plains below.
I was thinking that perhaps they are gems that enhance plane shifting ability and are used as a focus in the Moonwells to allow portions of the Feywild to coexist in the Faeree and Material Planes (i might call them Cedrane crystals).
Dragons love treasure and magic so they are probably attracted to the magic aura the crystals emit. The fell creatures can be dark shadowy fey like monsters that are brought to the Material Plane (and the depths of the Jotunhammer Mountains) by the crystals themselves.

As for the northern Jotunhammer Range, there is probably an active volcano beneath the mountains that is mobilising the ice (much like Greenland), and forms the Dvarstoldt Tar Pits.

I've finished a skeleton of the Isle of Norland now, i've got down a few customs and peculiarities from novels like the Council of Wintersnight.

https://alternaterealmsblog.wordpress.com/home/regions/sea-of-swords/moonshae-isles/isle-of-norland/

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