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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2019 :  19:32:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Trying to figure out how a clan based society might work.

I think in traditional feudal societies the King awards land to nobility who in turn allow common folk to work the land (either as serfs or for a tithe).

Clans are not the same as nobles, they seem like extended families around a central family. At the moment I'm leaning towards the King owning all land and the clans laying claim to tracts of land and promising to pay a tithe (a hundredth for instance) of everything produced on that land.
Clans allow normal families to pledge loyalty to the clan, promising to obey its rules and represent it with honour, and work towards whatever tithe is agreed. In return the clan promises to protect the families from monsters, bandits, other clans, etc.

Independent families can of course claim land and pay tithe to the King and his collectors, but there is the risk that other clans may muscle in on the territory (steal livestock, crops, etc, or cause an accident).


Now on Gwynneth there is massive amounts of land so the clans control the most productive areas, while the independents get the more dangerous or lower yield lands.
On Moray land is restricted, so clans control almost all the land.

Callidyrr and Snowdown are moving towards more feudal nobility so its a different model.

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5579 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2019 :  23:23:03  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the Moonshaes have been kingless for most of their existence so the power of the king or otherwise probably hasn't been an issue. I'd personally do some research on how the Scottish clans interacted with the Scottish kings in the Tudor period and beforehand. That might provide some insight.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2019 :  10:20:36  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always figured that the Moonshaes isles each had their own king (or equivalent) and that became an official monarchy or monarchies with the creation of the office of High King (otherwise what would be the point of a title of "high king".

Admittedly I'm ignoring the majority of elven, dwarven, giant, and leshay rule that held sway for millennia but that's only because I'm not very familiar with elves and dwarves and giants and fey, and those kingdoms are all but vanished in the modern era and were isolated from mainland faerun so can have had no effect outside of the Moonshaes. So in this instance I can ignore the demihuman and nothing else will suffer for that ignorance.

The clan rule of Scotland is only well detailed by the time England gets involved and brings along the more familiar noble feudal system which I'm hoping to avoid as that seems more like callidyrr where you have noble lords dividing up the land and clans ruling that land for them operating as sheriff's and tax collectors and police.

I'm hoping to come up with a system just prior to the middle ages but with a king. I figure the clans are like mafia families (But nicer). However it is the king to clan relationship that is bothersome. If a king grants landed titles to someone they immediately become noble and you have the problem of inheritance and permanent ownership.

I'm trying to imagine something more fluid whereby the ownership comes purely from staking a claim to that land and providing the necessary tithe and tribute to the king. That way another clan can muscle in if he can enforce protection from the inhabitants and pay the tithe and tribute to the king. This sometimes results in tithes being paid double for the same region and two clans claiming ownership of the same land but that is costly and cannot continue for long.

Moray seems like quite a poor land but with a strong martial tradition so all tithes are likely paid in kind rather than coin.

I'm also making the king peripatetic, so he has no home of his own, and instead wanders between clan holdings and staying with them. It makes the bond between king and clan closer and makes Moray different to the other islands.

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1545 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2019 :  10:29:26  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
(...)
There is one children for each of the races (...) this bear is meant to combat giants and dwarves.



If you think of one children for each PEOPLE, and not necessarily race, he could also be the response to the Northmen...

quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I've not settled on a name for him yet, I was thinking something like Darbolv (...)



Since you mentioned "bolg", it would be DarbolG, or was the V intentional? Would it be a typo or a variation of the name?

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2019 :  10:47:06  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
He could be for northmen but I was imagining the children like antibodies and so one human would be indistinguishable from another (or at least that was the though process at the time).
Then I read up about grond peaksmasher and his imprisonment on Oman Isle, I took that to be a literal imprisonment and tried to work an event that would imprison grond and destroy the dwarven empire of ahrrune hidden in the underdark. So I gave the bear a special power (kamerynn charms, the pack are a swarm), the bear gets stronger and bigger every time he is struck (makes sense if he was formed in response to war between the giants and dwarves). In the final battle the bear battles grond and splits the mountain and grond falls into it. The earth shattering stomp also collapsed the cavern of ahrrunes capital and so both empires (dwarf and giant) fall apart.


As for the name, I changed my mind a few times and since fir is phonetically similar to ffolk I decided that fir means big man (ffolk meaning people) which would mean the name would be Dagfvirr or something like that. I'm slowly building up a lexicon as I got along so I will probably change my mind a few more times.


The children are not just antibodies against races of people. The Nilshai is produced as a response to rampant magic use on the Moonshaes (which humans usually cause). Whereas I think I pegged the Shadow Hunt as a counter to humans. However I recently discovered that halflings migrated to the Moonshaes a long time ago before humans so I may need to add a new one if I can find a suitably unique creature mentioned in the sourcebooks anywhere, or I'll just make one up.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8279 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2019 :  21:41:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd recommend watching Rob Roy... because well its about clans with feudal lords involved, and its got cattle rustling, old fashioned loans, thievery, bastards, talk of sheep shagging, dueling, and well... its Rob Freakin' Roy... I mean, it won't give you any major insight into clans anymore than you already know, BUT at the end you can say you watched Rob Roy yet another time. Plus, it will remind you to start adding the word quim into your daily conversations.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 21 Jan 2019 :  21:45:27  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Funnily enough I just added something about slavery inspired by Rob Roy, although I can honestly say I have never been tempted to use the q word in any conversation, polite or otherwise.

Great film

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8279 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2019 :  13:24:37  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Funnily enough I just added something about slavery inspired by Rob Roy, although I can honestly say I have never been tempted to use the q word in any conversation, polite or otherwise.

Great film



Lol, that's the only movie I've ever heard the term in, and it was like they were using it left and right. Afterwards I had to look it up to make sure I wasn't misinterpreting. There were actually several terms in that movie I picked up, but that's the only glaring one coming to mind.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2019 :  14:20:22  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Been looking around for fanmade npcs (I like to work in other people's stuff as a homage to their efforts). Thus far I can find only one npc - Stradidar MacFinian.

I'm tempted to come up with an origin for rangers as an organisation maybe deriving from the ffolk word for finding.
It always struck me as odd that there is a special type of profession that is prevalent all across the Sword Coast north, all with similar skill sets.
So have a single organisation of origin that formed that profession and then it can spread to other lands later (probably when the bards of the Moonshaes spread to the Sword Coast and may have helped recreate the Harper's.

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1545 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2019 :  11:13:07  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I'm tempted to come up with an origin for rangers as an organisation (...)
It always struck me as odd that there is a special type of profession that is prevalent all across the Sword Coast north, all with similar skill sets.
So have a single organisation of origin that formed that profession and then it can spread to other lands later
(...)


Not Moonshaes-related, but IIRC the OGB says that most of the "modern" ranger lore was collected in Myth Drannor, by the Guild of Naturalists (the owner of the Hall of the Beast-Tamers).

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2019 :  11:27:13  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good find.

I'm guessing they catalogued the wood craft of elves and humans and other races.

That knowledge obviously dispersed to the dalelands through myth drannor successors (semberholme and elven court).

Myth Drannor however falls in 714 DR. And the Harper's as an organisation is destroyed (later rebuilt and destroyed and rebuilt).

So the question is how does that knowledge proliferate to the Sword Coast north. There is a connection between myth drannor and silverymoon and many people fled there, but the north was overrun a century later by the hordes of hellgate keep and then orcs.

Now there is a college in silverymoon named after a student of a great bard in the Moonshaes Isles. In fact there are many colleges throughout the Sword Coast north founded by students of a great bard in the Moonshaes.

I'm proposing that sometime around 900 DR there is a migration from the Moonshaes Isles that includes bards and woodsmen. These go on to form the ranks of the second incarnation of the Harper's. At that time woodsmen would be in great demand as the orcs and demons overrun the north and make it very unsafe.

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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1545 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2019 :  09:21:00  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think maybe a combination of the two would work. The OGB says that the the Naturalist's Guild studies on "the natural habits and pursuits of wild creatures" (...) "resulted in much of what is now ranger lore".

It means that, either if they were part of the 1st Harpers' incarnation or not (the reference says nothing about it), their knowledge somehow survived the fall of the city. On the other hand, it says "much of it", so at least a small part of the modern knowledge was gained through other influences, which may include the Moonshaes.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2019 :  10:35:25  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've added in a the ruin of caer moray, burned down regularly in the first few centuries of Morays existence and eventually abandoned to ruin as a costly mistake.
I've got rumours of a treasure horde hidden in the ruins (false as the treasury was emptied during civil strife prior to the castle being burned for the last time). The royal regalia is supposedly hidden in the ruins (true - the kings son tried to abscond with it while the castle was burning and became trapped in a tunnel at in one of the wells).
Also the ruin is supposed to be haunted as people can here haunting wails on certain nights (false - a weredog of the greystone trading company occasionally meets with his contacts from the heralds of the high king here and his howls are meant to scare away others).

Also adding a few mercenary companies here as moray's economy relies upon mercenaries. I'm making one of them the Morayan Reavers in homage to something in the Candlekeep Compendium.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2019 :  21:59:59  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Randomly read on Twitter in an old post ed made about the northmen that a decade of cold winters and short growing seasons caused the northmen to increase their raiding.

Looked on the history and in 1335 is a bleak winter that strikes the north. In 1324 the northmen occupy a large part of Moray and king Dagdar has to request help from Cordell to oust them the following year.

So 1324 to 1335 is a decade of harsh winters that see the northmen nearly starve and sees them raid across the Moonshaes. This increases the ffolk-northmen tension in preparation for kazgoroth coming.

Now I don't do god interference but I wonder if there is anyway that an evil leshay could manipulate the weather to be a lot colder.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 28 Jan 2019 :  20:46:41  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found a new dragon that may have lived on the Moonshae Isles

Angkarasce the Mighty

Angkarasce was a white dragon whose sorcery and wealth were unmatched in the early days of human settlement of the Sword Coast, and who wore a cloak of splendid legends because of it. He is long dead, consumed by his own sorceries as he sought to enspell himself into immortality.


Angkarasce's treasure hoard was discovered by Hoondarrh, who got in a fight with Naroun the Ghost (a great white wyrm) somewhere along the sword coast when an orc horde poured down out of the mountains around 600 DR.
For two days the dragons fought in the air, before Naroun crashed into a mountain and Hoondarrh collapsed onto a nearby ridge. An avalanche rolled Hoondarrh down into a bowl shaped valley and uncovered Angkarasce's hoard in a long buried cavern.

Most importantly the cavern was now open to the howling storm winds.



So Angkarasce was a white dragon and liable to lair somewhere cold. Hoondarrh was a red dragon and seemed to be plundering the northern sword coast when he encountered Naroun (also a white dragon). So somewhere not to cold for a red dragon to venture and not too warm for a white dragon to live, and somewhere within 2 days flight of the sword coast with mountains and valleys that no one had yet discovered.
Yes it could be any island but there are a lot of mountains in the Moonshae Isles and it is raked by savage arctic winds from the north.

Now crucially Angkarasce was slain, consumed by his magic. Doesn't mean he (or she) is completely gone. More importantly, could have been alive around the time the northmen and ffolk arrived on the islands.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2019 :  11:18:43  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Randomly reading through Moonshaes sources and came across queen connomae and her fomorians.

I was initially going to ignore the 4e lore because I'm biased but over time I've made the fomorians of the Moonshaes Isles into a kind of slaine warped firbolg (other generic fomorians exist elsewhere I just like different origins in geographically disparate regions).

So these fomorians were created by a special power of kazgoroth that induced uncontrollable rage in beings he touched. Now one particular fomorians I have is the former Paramount (like a king but related to the progenitor titan of their subrace, in this instance related to Grond Peaksmasher). He ended up on the Isle of Moray and caused holy he'll for the ffolk there.

I'm thinking now that perhaps Queen Connomae was the Paramounts wife and possibly sister/cousin (no need that giants should hold to human morality or genetics). So she retained many of her mental faculties after succumbing to the touch (while on Oman) and later fled through the Moonwell into the plane of faerie.

Now if there is a giant presence on Oman I'm also thinking that perhaps Iron Keep was their former home. After all, northmen and ffolk are not know for building huge fortresses. Perhaps I could have the Moonwell based inside the fortress which the Leshay placed there to keep the giants and kazgoroth away from a former stronghold.

Foolishly the northmen despoil the Moonwell and that means Queen Connomae and Kazgoroth can return there.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  09:19:16  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Reading through some of Eds posts I found an interesting take on the northmen.

Their raiding behaviour is actually something that happened mostly in the past. Under the influence of worshippers of an aspect of tempus (I will be using the name tempos and making it a separate entity) that glorified raiding and the sacrifice of slaves, the northmen plundered the ffolk for centuries but as worship of that cult died out so too did the raiding behaviour. Now the northmen raid only out of necessity, or to settle grudges, or as a competition between lords.


So I'm thinking the early northmen raided by default, but the endless warring with the ffolk (during the 200 - 300 DR period) depleted their numbers, and in 467 DR a large number of Tethyrians arrived which further bolstered the ffolk with new blood and new defensive strategies.
Thus the following of tempos declined.

The failure of a peace accord in 621 DR saw raiding rise again out of vengeance for the death of the Prince of norland and their perceived betrayal of the ffolk.
Continued wars to take Oman and Gnarhelm, while successful ultimately destroyed the following of Tempos among northmen.

So the northmen hadn't raided much for about 4 centuries (from 900 DR onwards), then we have a decade of horrible winters and short growing seasons (1324 onward) which means the northmen have to raid to survive, this reignited tension amongst northmen and ffolk and leads up to the war that kazgoroth orchestrates to weaken the strong human kingdoms.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  19:29:42  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sooo, leprechauns in Moray. Mentioned by King Dagdar when Elminster visited.

I'm loathe to use actual leprechauns as it is too much of an obvious steal of real world mythology.

Dagdar speaks of mischievous leprechauns who tease unwary travelers. It doesn't necessarily mean anyone has actually seen them so they could have any appearance at all. Teasing unwary travelers sounds like they use sound to try and lure them places (perhaps into problematic situations like a swamp or a bear cave or into a path of orcs).

Anyone have any ideas for an alternative leprechaun, because there is no way I'm using a small man in funny clothes with a pot of gold.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32389 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  20:39:10  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Half of the monsters in D&D -- including dragons and many forms of undead -- are stolen from real world legends. Another good chunk are stolen from other fiction -- illithids are clearly mini-Cthulhus.

Why accept everything else, but drawn the line at faeries?

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2019 :  20:56:31  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've got fairies, I even gave them a ffolkish name.

Leprechauns are just a little bit too ridiculous to fit into a quasi realistic version of the realms (I like it to be lifelike and immersive).

I could go down the route of a redcap and make them murderous but that isn't what Dagdar implies

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4719 Posts

Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  14:18:38  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Adding in a few magic items for Moray. I've got a few already and I'm tempted to have the mugs of plenty be from Moray.

The big thing is that there aren't really any wizards or spellcasters on Moray (In fact I'm intending on the wizard council of callidyrr to be the only overt spellcasters In the Moonshaes isles). So conventional magic item creation is out the window.

Now I've been experimenting with rules for alternative means of magic item creation and I'm looking at two alternatives.
First is using magical reagents in place of spells. So the gizzard of a red Dragon or the horn of a unicorn. Any creature that inherently possesses a magical quality can pass that quality onto a specially prepared item.
Second is advancement through experience. So a sword used in a thousand battles will eventually become magical and gain a quality that represents it's common usage.

Now I figure the druids are users of magic but not overtly so. I see them more as wise caretakers of the Islands who help through herblore. But there is no reason why they can't make magic using the first method.
The splintered sword (a made up item) could be crafted from the heartwood of a centuries old rose bush, dipped into the blood of rock troll and frozen in the ice of the tallest mountain on Moray.

Whereas the Sword of Moray could be made magical after a hundred years of conflict with a ffomorean and northmen raiders, giving it a magical property that improves the defence of its wielder.

Mugs of plenty are a tricky one though. The Morayans seem most likely of the ffolk to possess them (being hard drinkers like the northmen). But how would such items be created (there are more than one) without spellcasting, they could have been the original mugs of the clan hall of the MacArtth and after a thousand years of use in nightly revels the mugs will never empty of the ale known as Moray Black.

Any weird magic items people have created for the Moonshaes Isles that they don't mind me appropriating.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  17:59:46  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't get the issues with Leprechauns, but if you wanted to make them different... perhaps their gold isn't standard gold. Much as how the warlock knights of Vaasa use Felliron, maybe leprechauns use some kind of fairy gold that they mine. Maybe it has specific uses. Maybe it also has some ties to radiance (and thus rainbows). Maybe these leprechauns are also protectors of "celestial stairways", charged with hiding them using magic by deities such as Leira (noting she's CN, not evil).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  19:17:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

I've got fairies, I even gave them a ffolkish name.

Leprechauns are just a little bit too ridiculous to fit into a quasi realistic version of the realms (I like it to be lifelike and immersive).

I could go down the route of a redcap and make them murderous but that isn't what Dagdar implies



Giant flying lizards that spit fire or lightning, dead people getting up and walking around (even without muscles and tendons!), and creating any variety of effects by wiggling your fingers and saying a few words is lifelike and immersive?

I really can't understand how something like skeletons functioning the same as live people is more believable than a really short guy with some gold.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 31 Jan 2019 19:18:39
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 31 Jan 2019 :  19:51:30  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suppose I'm aiming for a low magic high fantasy approach.

I'm fine with dragons existing. They evolved from a wyvern like ancestor, evolved quickly due to the magic suffusing everything on Toril, and became what they are today by tying themselves to the Weave (like sarrukh, and elves).

I'm fine with undead existing, they are skeletons animated by negative which is associated with undeath.

I'm fine with leprechauns existing, but what I'm not okay with is fitting them into the Moonshaes. I get that they are associated with celtic mythology and that the Moonshaes are derived and influenced from celtic mythology but the Moonshaes are not exact analogues of Ireland, Scotland, and Wales.

Leprechauns came about in irish mythology for specific reasons and cultural beliefs that do not exist in Moray and so there is no reason for the leprechauns to exist in Moray.

I'm all about localizing magical or unique creatures. A unicorn in the Moonshae Isles may look like other unicorns elsewhere and may have similar abilities so that to the untrained eye they are indistinguishable but that does not mean they have the same origin (I got the idea from mountains orcs and grey orcs, similar races but different origins).

So fomorians in the Moonshae I've made different to fomorians elsewhere. Moonshae fomorians are actually firbolgs that have been twisted and mutated by the touch of Kazgoroth. They look the same as fomorians and have similar abilities but have a Moonshae specific origin tied to a particular event and person. Kamerynn the unicorn looks like other unicorns but was birthed by the Earthmother (which is the islands themselves). There is a hag in the Korinn Archipelago that looks like other hags and has similar abilities but is actually a cursed leshay.


So leprechauns are pretty magical and unique. I could just have them be fey sprites but what would be their purpose other than to be mischevious and horde other peoples gold (a relatively arbitrary placement without any other tie to events, people or places on Moray). Ideally I'd like something that causes the creation of leprechaun like creatures, or something that gives reason for their existence and appearance only on Moray (they are mentioned nowhere else).
Given the nature focused location I was thinking more along the lines of a water, forest or grassy type of fey that merely mimics human voice to drive them away from certain places. If its water based I could easily give the mimicry and ventriloquism abilities to the water sprites of the River Shannyth and have them use the voices to drive humans away from the river (because they hate the humans for polluting the waters and slaying Shannyth the River Queen).

But I'm always open to ideas.


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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 01 Feb 2019 :  03:30:52  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again, a lot of monsters in D&D are from real world legends and myths. So they're from cultures and mythologies which don't exist in the Realms -- yet the critters are still there.

And that includes dragons and the most common forms of the undead.

So if leprechauns are being tossed out for being tied to real world cultures, why are you keeping everything else?

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