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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 18:11:07
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There seem to be several schools of thought on this matter, not to mention what I see as a huge difference between RW east and west approaches to the same weapon. The eastern spear is flexible and often utilized without the benefits associated with a shield and seems far more versatile than a weapon with a shorter grip. However, in the west the opposite approach seems to be more historically effective. By extension, what about the many and various polearms one encounters in D&D? Would elven spears tend towards the flexible/eastern approach, or be more in line with traditional high fantasy? There is certainly no correct answer to this question, just asking opinions.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 18:14:14
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| I picture Elves with something more akin to a Zulu spear (basically a shortsword on the end of a very long handle). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2014 18:14:59 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 18:21:32
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| I really like Prince Nuada's spear from Hellboy 2 that extended from a shortspear to a full-sized, 6 footish weapon. I'm aware that many pikes were much longer, but for the single warrior not massed in formation, this seems to be about the limit of the effective size of a personal melee weapon |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 18:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I picture Elves with something more akin to a Zulu spear (basically a shortsword on the end of a very long handle).
This could almost as easily be described as a sword. With a curved blade? Short-glaive, naginata? In the Shadows of the Apt series dragonfly kinden were described as wielding such a weapon. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 18:56:02
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| Shortsword, shortspear? I'm not sure. Here. More than likely not thrown as well as the Zulu spear, at least, not in the same way. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 19:18:13 |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:02:20
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As a people living and fighting primarily in a wooded area I doubt the elves would use long and/or flexible spears, the ones people used in such areas during most of history were short hunting spears, or javelins made to be thrown at a target.
Now if you are, say a very skilled fighter who specializes in spears, you would no doubt want something akin to the partisan spear, its length is similar to most other spears, but its blade is wider and used for cutting as well as thrusting. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:16:54
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| Not entirely true as this awesome video from Drunken Master illustrates, but your point is taken. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:23:36
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Unless a weapon can be put in the hands of a child and beat a veteran fighter armed with a different weapon 100% of the time, then there is no such thing as a superior weapon in a general sense. The wejlder makes the difference.
I don't see elves, a people who have existed for eons, having only one type of spear. They probably have different spears for different reasons. Spears for mounted combat, spears for woodland close quarters fighting, and spears for open fields on foot.
When considering what type of weapon any race would have, keep in mind the culture and the geography. A people who live exclusively in dense forest will likely have no use for weapons designed for open fields. A people who despise guerrilla warfare, deeming it barbaric will have few weapons designed for that type of fighting (but they still may exist, just not as openly.) |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:25:25
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The spear used in that fight scene is a short one as far as spears go - 6 feet (or somewhere there), most medieval spears would be 7-8 feet long, I know one or a couple of extra feet don't seem like much of a difference but it truly is.
As for the flexibility of a spear, I just can't see it as a plus, that is again my opinion and having such spears means that there were people who preferred them for some reason. I'm sorry that I cannot tell you what it was.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:26:33
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I'm not sure of the actual dimensions, but to my eyes, despite the different cultural approaches to combat, this would certainly qualify (not necessarily as a partisan spear), but as a piercing/slashing weapon whether it had a 2, 4, or 6 foot haft.
Edit: fixed link, sorry bout that. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 19:33:19 |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:35:08
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You COULD slash with it, I'm not denying that. But the tip of it is a rather small one, much smaller than that of a western spear both in the medieval and ancient times, and it wasn't nearly as wide either.
If you are looking for an eastern polearm type of weapon that is excellent for slashing and keeping reach and being able to stab, I would recommend you look in to a guan dao.
Ok, I saw your link after you edited your post, the weapon you linked to is quite different from the one in that fight scene, and as far as slashing goes yeah... ouch. |
Edited by - eeorey on 26 Oct 2014 19:37:37 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:46:37
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| Somewhere in my meanderings I read "The staff is more powerful than the sword", it was certainly an eastern philosophy, but not necessarily RW. I am searching high and low for that quote but cannot find it. By extension, one might argue the superiority of the spear over the staff |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11690 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:52:19
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
The spear used in that fight scene is a short one as far as spears go - 6 feet (or somewhere there), most medieval spears would be 7-8 feet long, I know one or a couple of extra feet don't seem like much of a difference but it truly is.
As for the flexibility of a spear, I just can't see it as a plus, that is again my opinion and having such spears means that there were people who preferred them for some reason. I'm sorry that I cannot tell you what it was.
(bear in mind this is all my opinion) The purpose of a more flexible spear tip would be for use behind a shield wall where you are striking over the shoulders of the person in front of you. Your jerking motions could provide more momentum and also make it harder to dodge. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 19:53:53
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| I'm not really looking for a definitive answer, but a consensus of opinion. There are many versions of a similar weapon, some quite specialized, and some that blur the line between what we, as Earthlings, are familiar with. In a fantasy setting, anything is possible. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:02:15
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| From my readings of Japanese mythology, the naginata was often considered a woman's weapon. That is not to say that many male samurai did not wield it. Certainly it was devastatingly deadly enough. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 20:04:05 |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:05:37
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The western spear is a weapon for open fields and shield walls, a method of fighting I'm fairly sure the elves aren't too comfortable with. If they use polearms much in warfare, I imagine they're more partial to voulges and glaives. Both similar to naginatas. If they were forced to fight in an open field, I imagine they'd have a center line of shock troops, swordsmen with heavy armor, flanked by said polearm wielders. Behind them would be magic users and archers. The far flanks would be light cavalry.
Edit: Like so - http://imgur.com/TgGVqzp
Would have done it faster, but I only have gimp on this computer. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
Edited by - Lyiat on 26 Oct 2014 21:00:05 |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:07:12
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| There is a Scandinavian weapon called a "Svärdstav" and it is what it sounds like, a "Swordstaff". It haves sword blade (short one) affixed to a staff and usually a pair of large quillons to assist in parrying and trapping the enemy's weapon. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:09:44
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Re: Naginata
Also, more of a circular, slashing-type offense than the often straight forward thrusts of some lances. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 20:10:25 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by eeorey
There is a Scandinavian weapon called a "Svärdstav" and it is what it sounds like, a "Swordstaff". It haves sword blade (short one) affixed to a staff and usually a pair of large quillons to assist in parrying and trapping the enemy's weapon.
Not, probably, used in the same way, but this somewhat describes my interpretation of the Avariel Lance |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 20:19:06 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 20:59:33
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| Frikn Suckerpunch the best fanboi chit ever made. Apologies, I digress. Good naginata scene though. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 21:02:26
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| I'm gettn nothin' from your link, Lyiat, cept blue squares and triangles. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 21:04:46
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| It's a military line. Match up the description to the visual. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 21:16:15
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| I must be dense. Just not getting it. Maybe my tablet doesn't either. What the hell is the penguin icon for? I hate penguins. Where am I? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 21:30:47
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Penguin icon...? Oh, that's some make a meme thing imgur does.
The central rectangles are your center line, your main infantry. In a human army, these would be your blockmen, your pikes with tower shields and heavy armor. The reason for this is that typically these linemen came from the peasantry. They weren't trained soldiers, they were farmers and basic craftsmen, like smiths and weavers. You gave them a long stick with a bit of metal at the end to poke at the bad guys and keep them in place while the veteran soldiers cleaned house. The infantry behind them would be more heavily armed veteran shock troops, capable of rushing in to fill empty spots and guard in case of a retreat.
Now, elves have long, long lives. If they're in the army, they're going to be trained soldiers with decades of experience. Putting them in a pike square would be a complete and utter waste. Instead, you'd give them swords and shields. Their role would be the same, of course, but they're heavy shock troops. They'll smash into the front line hard, relying on their armor and magical protection from the mages just behind them (with the triangles). Scattered archers in their lines, closer to the rear, would snipe out important targets behind a wall of shields and plate, while a deadly rain of magic and arrows fell down from further behind into the main body of the enemy troops.
The larger squares to the left and right are your polearms. Their purpose is to ward off cavalry charges and sweep in when the main body of the army encounters the other, taking the flanks hard. They'd be spaced out a bit to give room for the scything motion that gliaves and volgues need, cutting into the enemy line like farmers cutting wheat in a field.
The rectangles with the triangles are the cavalry. Armies use light cavalry to bait out attacks and destroy light troops like skirmishers and archers.
Thats how I believe that high elves would end up fighting, at least. Wood Elves... they'd likely rely on hit and run with a lot of skirmish troops. Mounted archers, javelins, things like that. Field battles would very much not be their thing.
TL;DR - I don't really think elves would use spears. Spears for war were designed for the inexperienced soldier. Hunting spears are intended to be thrown. Would they use polearms? Certainly, but only while mounted, or the shorter slashing polearms. In my opinion. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
Edited by - Lyiat on 26 Oct 2014 21:51:44 |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 22:09:47
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| Also, keep in mind, a spear ultimately has just one move. The stab. Elves have centuries to hone their skillset. They're graceful, dexterous, and above all, arrogant/vain. Do you really think they're going to waste so many decades on learning 'pokey pokey pokey'? Nah, they want something flashy. And while I do like the bull spear (the one in the Drunken Master), it was not a weapon of war. It was a performance weapon. It's not doing much against an armored foe. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 22:50:28
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| I've got to disagree. There are many bludgeoning maneuvers available to a proficient user utilizing the entire haft of the weapon, as well as many trips, disarms, throws and locks. In this regard, I think it more versatile than the sword. Though, in most cases it requires more space to wield effectively. Certainly getting stabby was the primary use of most of our spears, but noted differences occur here on Earth and almost certainly in a fantastical world with many different races, cultures, needs and technology. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 22:53:30 |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 23:00:48
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| I've been using the staff since I was six. I'm well aware of the versatility of a polearm. The problem is, none of that versatility comes into play against plate mail with a layer of chain under it. I've trained with the SCA and have been banged around the head with a rattan sword (wearing an open faced bascinet helm). Other than the noise, it gets really easy to ignore after a while. Sure, you know you've been hit, but it's not going to stop you from impaling someone, even if they're whaling on your head as hard as they can with their stick. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 23:08:29
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| Granted, I have very little real world experience in such matters, but I don't think it matters much, when, in a world in which that little stick can be enchanted to hit like an 18-wheeler. Furthermore, many cultures eschew the use of such heavy and cumbersome armors for a variety of differing reasons. Not to mention the near infinite variety of sharp, heavy specialized heads that can be applied to said stick. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 23:14:58 |
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Lyiat
Seeker
91 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 23:15:32
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I agree, but in turn remember that such enchantments are indeed rare, and armor can be enchanted to match.
Quite a few cultures might eschew that form of armor, but a stick isn't doing much to any armor above leather. A metal helm is pretty basic as is. Well cured hide with a lot of simple padding could take most of the sting out of the heaviest of hardwood rods, I promise you. I *love* the staff. It's my favorite weapon, and I used to practice with it every day. But in an actual period fight, it's not doing anything. |
"Stand and deliver, that my hamster might have a better look at you." ~ Minsc |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 23:27:24
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| All valid points. However, it is the spear of which I speak (classify it anyway you'd like depending on the shape of the pointy metal thing on the end of it). I think it, at least, a fair stack against all but the most heavy armor. And remember I was looking to compare the spear versus the sword, not the efficacy of the spear vs. plate-mail, though I'm still not convinced of that either, circumstantially. Many polearms were designed specifically to deal with heavily armored and mounted knights. I realize that many were, in function, very different than your average infantryman's sharpened, fire-hardened stick, but I maintain my stance, as it were. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Oct 2014 23:36:07 |
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Is the spear more powerful than the sword?
