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Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
745 Posts

Posted - 26 Oct 2014 : 23:27:28

quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

I'm not really trying to argue here, even though it's probably going to sound that way. I look at it as opining.

Consensus isn't always possible, or desirable. For example, I think the return of Shade was stupid and I can gain some support for that, but there will always be a certain percentage who love the shades being an open and widely known force. Same with the resurrection of Myth�Drannor. I'm a staunch foe of the TOT occurring as written, but some like/love it. Consensus on these issues isn't going to happen. And maybe it shouldn't, because with respect to any particular thing you choose to incorporate consensus requires those who don't like it to either (1) climb onto a bandwagon they despise, or (2) be disappointed by its inclusion and therefore less likely to contribute to the conversation. Is it not better to maximize creative contribution by acknowledging and developing contrary ideas? Let's look at the Anauroch region (stretching as far as Sembia) in various time frames both with and without the influence of Shade. That way those who feel strongly about the issue can champion their particular causes and the Realms comes out richer for all of them because it brings up the issues of precisely what positive and negative impacts the return of Shade had. We can discuss, and develop, without deciding... this presents individual DMs with options instead of railroading them into a set series of outcomes. And those who want to be forced to accept outcomes they don't necessarily like can pick the ones they feel are presented most strongly.

Similar arguments can be made in favor of all the time frames and rulesets. Want to use the 2e rules in the 5e timeframe, or vice versa? Cool.

If you want to see what the Realms would look like with more mature/reserved deities, let's talk about it. You shouldn't be silenced just because more strident voices on the forum like the gods being petty little brats.

I do strongly agree with the "pooling" of ideas, just not with the picking one and disregarding the rest. My insane sarrukh takeover of the world, for example, probably isn't a very popular idea. I still appreciate feedback on individual aspects of it, even if everyone thinks the overall idea is an epic fail. I'm sure many of us have ideas that fit that pattern... the whole thing might not get a lot of approval up front, but we still like it and want to develop it. Pooling ideas is awesome.

I'm pretty sure I've seen Steven pop into threads randomly with a "hey that sounds cool." Eric and George might be more likely to observe how something does or does not fit with canon, but I've never seen them go out of their way to shut anyone down. Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, just saying based on my observations none of the authors/designers here are going to slap you around and call you names for generating new lore. I think, if they were going to do that, they would have slapped me for the sarrukh thing.

Anyway, I just think we should focus on encouraging as many ideas as possible, rather than filtering or funneling everyone into popular outcomes. Not because my own ideas aren't popular, but because maximizing participation is good.

I don't see it that way. We're just agreeing on expanding the lore for a certain time period. No one is saying YOU have to have the City of Shade in YOUR game....I don't even though I play in 1372 atm.

I think the intent here is to clean up the mysteries and inconsistencies of ALL the editions, while remaining rule neutral.

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6646 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 02:36:31

I'll be honest, I love seeing fan lore here at the 'Keep. I'm not the biggest fan of the "pure speculation" threads that proliferate, but give me a new magic item, spell, location, or NPC that's well thought out and bedded into the lore and you've got my undivided attention.

Things get a tad more difficult when that creation process suddenly becomes a group project. Ideas on imaginary place don't always gel and the level of subjectivity is significant. I like what I like and think something feels right but that might not accord in any way with another person's take on a particular topic.

Heck, I had a little chuckle in relation to a previous 5E Campaign Setting thread where someone outlined their preferred list of who should be writing it and my name wasn't included. Another poster queried why I wasn't in the mix and the OP honestly stated that I "didn't do it for him" or words to that effect. I took no offence at the post simply because it exemplified my own experiences in the Realms. There are writers/designers I rate and there are others I don't - and for a range of reasons. The bottom line however is that they have provided their earnest endeavours with the best of intentions and my response is sometimes "meh". Translate that to a group collaborative FR effort where the majority of the participants are not professional designers/writers (I include myself in that grouping), have access to different resources, have favourite editions and writers, enjoy adding different things to "their" Realms and well ... it can get messy.

I'll give you an example. Back when Steven Schend was traffic copping FR there was a proposal to do an FR encyclopedia project. I got an e-mail out of the blue from Eric Boyd and Steven Schend one day to help out on writing up the Fallen Kingdom. That topic had been allocated to an individual on the Project but he was absent on holidays at the time. Eric and I got into it and built up quite a head of steam, cataloguing the lore, making a few decisions about what fit and what didn't and essentially fixing not only the issues with the Fallen Kingdom but also roadmapping much of the skeleton of the greater history of the North. It's safe to say that our enthusiasm levels were high. Steven and Ed both chimed in saying "all good" and then the individual whose project it was came online. He came online and disagreed with a few of the central, core assumptions/decisions we had made to sort out the Fallen Kingdom's tangled lore and told us both matter of factly that he couldn't agree with what we'd come up with and would be making changes for his official submission for the FR Encyclopedia project. Given that project was never realised, his version never saw the light of day. Ours did through various ways, notably a substantial re-write of chunks of LEoF many years later.

That experience opened my eyes to how group work in the Realms can be a problematic at times. That's not to say it can't be done or shouldn't, but I know that it's not going to be a smooth ride by any measure. If it does happen, its success will hinge on people parking their egos at the door, being prepared to let go of their own "great ideas" if needs dictate and being constructive and careful regarding feedback. All in all, it will be a pretty wild ride I reckon.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 27 Oct 2014 02:37:19

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 03:44:48

Yup.

Oh... should I elaborate?

Just agreeing with everything you've just said. I just erased an over-long post I had here. suffice it to say that I've learned that YEAH, not every 'Kewl' idea you have is a gem, and sometimes you have to listen to other people. When you look back on it a few months later you'll probably realize what they realized and say, "what was I thinking?"

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 08:41:06

Well George i love your work, and i see no reason why a collaboration couldnt work with the right framework.

So for instance a set of rules that helps decide what does and does not go in.

So 1 - Sourcebooks beat novels (in fact novels only really count as circumstantial evidence and should really be presented as options.

2 - Canon wins unless see point 3 or point 4

3 - If canon contradicts itself then a decision needs to be made on the event in question. Largest vote wins.

4 - If you want to change canon then you need 3 pieces of evidence (see point 1) to support your change, or a majority vote from the group. Or just present it as a rumour or an optional event.

5 - In event of a tie or unsolvable difference of opinion the head coordinator decides.

Thats just an example off the top of my head but using something like that we could set out the canon stuff, decide on the contradictions and hopefully sort everything out.

As for deciding on the novels its more about presenting options. So all novel and RSE based events should be optional. So instead you pick a few events that have to happen so that the changes to the realms still occur but not necessarily in the way of the novel.

Example 1 - TOT. Mandatory event - Myrkul loses portfolio of death to another god (possibly Jergal). Bane and Mask lose portfolios of Intrigue and Strife to another god (possibly Xvim). The other events are unimportant, but the above two are central to the future development of the realms (the ruin of Zhentil Keep and Fzoul's ascension all occur because of those events). A neutral god of the dead is also a part of the future realms so Myrkul cannot retain that portfolio either (he was rubbish at being god of the dead as well).

Then write up the optional event of the Time of Troubles for those that want to include it, but if they dont it still doesnt affect the future timeline in any way.

2 - The death of Azoun. The central event is the death of Azoun. So mandatory event is he dies (probably of old age, maybe of poisoning). Then writeup the novel version (i would love to remove the ghazneths) with what settlements are hit, who dies, what happens on what days, and have a proper think about how these goblins and the dragon would act.

3 - The return of the archwizards. Central event is the return of shade. The optional writeup includes what happens if you want them to have a major role in the campaign (so sharnwall comes down, phaerimm do bad stuff, shade gets involved, etc, but without strange choices or deus ex machina like bugbear armies and shadow swords and attacking evereska).

None of the RSEs are mandatory and so people can pick and choose what they like. It becomes like a giant plug and play selection of RSE's and novel events, but everything weaved together into a giant realmsian whole.

Then moving on to peoples own ideas. I see no reason why Markustay's railroad and Xaeryuudh's sarrukh invasion cant be included. The plots and rumours/current clack would make a good place for both, with rumours of some crack pot minor noble trying to build a metal road through the stonelands, or rumours of lizardmen appearing across the realms. You could even add in other rumours that build on it about the disappearance and return of influential people that begin acting strangely (have been replaced or histachii'd) and the raiding of caravans (stockpiling weapons) ready for the sarrukh uprising. Then to make it canon just write up a brief about the npc and a mention in the settlement writeup where it begins about a curious metal road being laid outside the manor of the noble. Or a settlement disappearing overnight in Tashluta (a settlement that no one has heard of or is perhaps sparsely detailed so we dont lose existing lore) in preparation for the sarrukh event. Just little mentions that people can build on.

Then if people want to writeup up an entire optional timeline event of their own idea (like for other RSE's as above) that details what happens if people want to include and develop that event.

In my experience people tend not to mind so much if things are written as maybes and possibles. If you state outright "this is what happened" then people may disagree, but if you pose the statement as a question or just one possible version of events they resist the idea less (hell i wrote in an entire 3rd empire into the old empires region all based on a maybe and i dont think anyone shot it down).

I think it could work. I think we could all come together to cooperate enough to make something. We could split the realms up into regions. People take which region they want. Collect the canon lore, write up what we have (since its the internet age there is no size limit) then come up with ideas for expanding the area and advancing the timeline and put it to the group and see what sticks. Even if multiple people want to do the same region it may not be a bad thing. As long as everyone remembers its a cooperative effort and everyone gets a voice.

I'd want to do Old Empires and or Vaasa/Damara since i've already worked heavily on those (and i've already written up one optional event - the invasion of Unther).

Edited by - Gary Dallison on 27 Oct 2014 08:48:55

Cards77
Senior Scribe

USA
745 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 19:27:18

I agree with Dazzerdal and if for nothing, the sake of cleaning up the confusion that exists within and between various editions. Hell even my wife is confused about the mapping inconsistencies, is Shade there, it is not? Is Myth Drannor back is it not? Etc.

I don't see this as seeking to CHANGE anything, but more like explain what these events all mean in the context of the lore and the timelilne and how it relates to your campaign.

Sort of like an a la carte menu for a campaign guide that helps guide people into the edition/era they think may best fit their game, and then drilling down slightly to look at those larger events and explaining how to take them or leave them etc.

And.......you NEVER have a enough "current clack" type things where other ideas can be thrown in as possibilities (within reason where DM's like me that lack creativity hadn't even considered the notion, and can then either not discuss it, or take it and run with it as desired.

If nothing else a consolidated outlet for all these things that Mr. Krashos so eloquently described.

No, a bunch of us Realms nerds aren't always going to agree on anything but what we CAN agree on is there are FAR too many great things created in here that never see the light of day due to people just not knowing about them. Mostly the fantastic detail work that's been going on here for years and years by authors and others.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 19:48:24

Well I figure start with the Time of Troubles and I can think of three possible alternatives that should cater to all.

1 - Nothing changes. Bane stays, Myrkul stays, Bhaal stays.

2 - Bane and Myrkul get punished for nicking the tablets and they lose a portfolio each (and become intermediate deities).

3 - ToT happens kind of as written but we have a chance to remove anything messy that didn't make sense or was contradictory (like all assassins dying - even though that was later corrected).

The schism of Bane's church across the realms becomes a continuation of the split in Banes church between orthodox and non-orthodox churches if ToT doesn't happen. It can be a split between Bane and Xvim if only Bane and Myrkul are punished. It can be as now if ToT occurs.

Then the ToT leads onto the Ruin of Zhentil Keep. So we could keep the destruction of Zhentil Keep as the mandatory event.

Option 1 - The Keep is destroyed by Manshoon who wants to remove the Banite influence from the Zhents and so sets up an army of humanoids and giants with support from Mulmaster and others to attack and destroy most of the keep. This is if no ToT.

Option 2 - The Keep is destroyed from within and without as Iyachtu Xvim and Bane fight each other for control and a humanoid army (again organised by Manshoon) tries to take advantage of the situation. This is if only Bane and Myrkul are punished.

Option 3 - The Keep is destroyed by Cyric's army as written (although I'd be tempted to alter the whole Cyric going mad thing - again as a series of options). This is if ToT happens as written.

I'm not sure that many stories follow on from one another like the ToT and the trial of cyric/ruin of zhentil keep.

So you write a basic version of the area to which most of it applies throughout the era, then in the options writeup include any changes (such as an alternate writeup of one of the buildings to show that it is now Cyric's temple instead of Bane) that occur as a result of that plot option.

That should keep everyone happy, the ToT lovers, the ToT haters, the ToT not minders (but didn't like the specifics). And then everyone can be on the same page no matter what happens in the novels.

Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 21:55:45

George Krashos summed up my viewpoint very, very well, only with much greater clarity and baggage (not to mention I got a bit emotional and rude

, but I've been through that).

I'll try to give more constructive suggestions now (even though I might not be of much use in actually doing the work, I'd be glad to help the process). I've read dazzlerdal's posts, and one thing that strikes me as very important in a project like this is figuring out what your objective is. I'll explain with an example that should be relevant to the case.

If your objective is to keep extending pre-Spellplague Realms but correcting any inconsistencies, then you probably should aim at actually changing the least possible amount of lore you can. This is largely what has been done by WotC over most of 3e, at least from my point of view. You may not like their RSEs, but they generally didn't go about throwing canon away, they expanded on it, hot-fixed a lot of stuff and cleaned up quite a few continuity issues (and it's difficult to compare 4e and 5e, mainly due to the large time jump and relative scarcity of material). The reason for this approach is the more you start contradicting or ignoring obvious consequences of previous lore, the more you make said previous lore effectively incompatible. And since your aim is expanding, you should be aiming at keeping the vast majority of that material published for the Realms compatible with your text. You want your stuff to add rather than replace, or at least to add much, much more than the tiny bit it replaces. This approach assumes more than just consistency within your work, it assumes a high degree of consistency with the entire body of Realms products.

Then again, you have other options. You can make your alternate Realms conceptually divorced from the published material, and then you can pick and choose the things you like as long as you keep internal consistency. My own Realms are on this category, which is one reason it is mostly irrelevant for any work with the first approach.

Edit: minor clarification.

Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.

Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955

My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447

Edited by - Mapolq on 27 Oct 2014 22:06:54

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 23:28:04

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Nothing concrete - I've brought-up the idea of railroad in Cormyr once or twice, and no-one seemed interested. I pictured it being Dwarven-built, and much more like the (fantasy) trains in the novel Iron Dragon (which supposedly had a game to go along with it, about building a railroad in a fantasy setting, but I could never find it).

Went looking for the novel (there are several by that name), and found the game instead. Go figure. You can see it HERE. I was always a big fan of model-railroading when I was a kid (an interest that lead me to miniatures, which lead me to RPGs). So combining all my interests, and inspired by the train in that novel, I wanted to put a Railroad in Cormyr. In the novel - and my Homebrew setting - the Railroad is built and maintained by dwarves, but if you want to stick closer to canon in FR, you could say it was something Lantanese, built and maintained by Gondsmen.

In my Homebrew setting the railroad runs all over 'The Empire' (very much like the empire from the Warhammer game), and has tried to expand beyond the empire three times, with only one success (and that one only partial). Seems they always run into a bit of 'bad luck' when they try to cut through the mountains (two monumental projects, both halted... but one the dwarves are secretly trying re-activate). For the third they built an amazingly long (and high!) trestle-bridge across a straight - a brilliant feat of dwarven engineering! Just don't look down...

In the Cormyr scenario, that would be akin to building the same bridge across the 'the Neck' to the Dragoncoast.

In my (very) short-lived FR-meets-The-Old-West campaign I had a railroad, but that all took place over in anchorome. Also built by Dwarves (except for the Elven monorail... but thats another story), but maintained and used by everybody. I basically moved the timeline forward a century (long before WotC officially did) and used most of the Red Steel campaign stuff for it, including the maps.

And lastly, in my newest FR-mashup Campaign setting, I have an Eberron-style railroad, down in Halruaa, because I pasted-in a huge chunk of Eberron into Halruaa (which is a massive archipelago in MY FR). I don't need the railroad in the heartlands, because I have the Halruaan Airship Travel network instead.

Thats about it - more of a 'thought experiment' then anything I've put a lot of work into.

I like your railroad more in Mulhorand, where they were at least studying the steam engine concept, and where mass transportation of slaves and their crops to field work might prove useful. In fact, if they bring Mulhorand back, it would be nice if they had the Mulhorandi coming back with a smattering of true technological advances (i.e. not magitech). I'm thinking things like steam locomotives, steam powered mills, well pumps allowing deep sunk wells in crop areas without nearby rivers.... not to go a whole steampunkish feel, but rather to make it understood that when magic failed them they turned back more to the sciences their ancestors studied. In fact, I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what kinds of technology you could bring to the realms without it destroying its feel. For instance, originally, the development of good glass was supposed to be a rare thing.... but would it really break things if a place like Mulhorand developed (and guarded) the secrets to making very accurate glass lenses with few defects? What about technological advancements that wouldn't be possible in our world.... like for instance, raising of giant spiders for their silk, and then using this silk as some kind of cheap replacement for things where we might say use plastic or maybe rubber (I may be pulling at straws there, but you get the idea). Maybe as another example... a medusa is used to petrify insects, which are then used like gravel.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 27 Oct 2014 : 23:45:37

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I'll be honest, I love seeing fan lore here at the 'Keep. I'm not the biggest fan of the "pure speculation" threads that proliferate, but give me a new magic item, spell, location, or NPC that's well thought out and bedded into the lore and you've got my undivided attention.

Things get a tad more difficult when that creation process suddenly becomes a group project. Ideas on imaginary place don't always gel and the level of subjectivity is significant. I like what I like and think something feels right but that might not accord in any way with another person's take on a particular topic.

Heck, I had a little chuckle in relation to a previous 5E Campaign Setting thread where someone outlined their preferred list of who should be writing it and my name wasn't included. Another poster queried why I wasn't in the mix and the OP honestly stated that I "didn't do it for him" or words to that effect. I took no offence at the post simply because it exemplified my own experiences in the Realms. There are writers/designers I rate and there are others I don't - and for a range of reasons. The bottom line however is that they have provided their earnest endeavours with the best of intentions and my response is sometimes "meh". Translate that to a group collaborative FR effort where the majority of the participants are not professional designers/writers (I include myself in that grouping), have access to different resources, have favourite editions and writers, enjoy adding different things to "their" Realms and well ... it can get messy.

I'll give you an example. Back when Steven Schend was traffic copping FR there was a proposal to do an FR encyclopedia project. I got an e-mail out of the blue from Eric Boyd and Steven Schend one day to help out on writing up the Fallen Kingdom. That topic had been allocated to an individual on the Project but he was absent on holidays at the time. Eric and I got into it and built up quite a head of steam, cataloguing the lore, making a few decisions about what fit and what didn't and essentially fixing not only the issues with the Fallen Kingdom but also roadmapping much of the skeleton of the greater history of the North. It's safe to say that our enthusiasm levels were high. Steven and Ed both chimed in saying "all good" and then the individual whose project it was came online. He came online and disagreed with a few of the central, core assumptions/decisions we had made to sort out the Fallen Kingdom's tangled lore and told us both matter of factly that he couldn't agree with what we'd come up with and would be making changes for his official submission for the FR Encyclopedia project. Given that project was never realised, his version never saw the light of day. Ours did through various ways, notably a substantial re-write of chunks of LEoF many years later.

That experience opened my eyes to how group work in the Realms can be a problematic at times. That's not to say it can't be done or shouldn't, but I know that it's not going to be a smooth ride by any measure. If it does happen, its success will hinge on people parking their egos at the door, being prepared to let go of their own "great ideas" if needs dictate and being constructive and careful regarding feedback. All in all, it will be a pretty wild ride I reckon.

-- George Krashos

I've always wanted to have a hand at designing the realms, but then I see exactly what you're stating right here. Its a lot of work, and therefore I really appreciate those who have managed to make sense of large sections of it. That being said, there's certain things that just don't meld well with MY realms. For instance, while I can appreciate the idea put forward for the witches of Rashemen in second edition as a group of sister witches who all work well together for the betterment of the country....... I just can't buy it. I liked the mystique they had in first edition, running around, masked from their own populace, daring anyone to try and contradict their rule, using whips on those who needed disciplining to remind them of their place..... meanwhile the witches themselves were infighting amongst themselves.... until someone acts against their country, in which case they all start working against the enemy with guerrilla warfare type tactics. Nowadays, I'd actually like to see a happy medium come in between these two pictures now.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 01:59:32

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I like your railroad more in Mulhorand, where they were at least studying the steam engine concept, and where mass transportation of slaves and their crops to field work might prove useful. In fact, if they bring Mulhorand back, it would be nice if they had the Mulhorandi coming back with a smattering of true technological advances (i.e. not magitech). I'm thinking things like steam locomotives, steam powered mills, well pumps allowing deep sunk wells in crop areas without nearby rivers.... not to go a whole steampunkish feel, but rather to make it understood that when magic failed them they turned back more to the sciences their ancestors studied. In fact, I'd love to hear people's thoughts on what kinds of technology you could bring to the realms without it destroying its feel. For instance, originally, the development of good glass was supposed to be a rare thing.... but would it really break things if a place like Mulhorand developed (and guarded) the secrets to making very accurate glass lenses with few defects? What about technological advancements that wouldn't be possible in our world.... like for instance, raising of giant spiders for their silk, and then using this silk as some kind of cheap replacement for things where we might say use plastic or maybe rubber (I may be pulling at straws there, but you get the idea). Maybe as another example... a medusa is used to petrify insects, which are then used like gravel.

I've elaborated on this idea before (maybe it was you who proposed it - I can't remember), and I posited the development of a rail network and greater productivity in rural areas might result in Mulhorand finally winning a (hypothetical) decades-long attrition war in Unther. I've later developed that into a canal-and-watermill industrial society later developing into steam and mechanisation for my campaign (though they're far from that point yet, I'm in 1376 DR). I also argued that a long time into the future (around 1450 DR perhaps) they could be building a trans-Shaar railroad to the Shining Lands to rival the canal in Innarlith (which I had just finished by the present time) as the major trade route into the Sea of Fallen Stars. By this time, other nations would be industrialising as well. I didn't go with steampunk-ish ideas either, but rather with plain Earth technology, sometimes assisted by magic (but very rarely magically-powered). But I doubt this kind of concept is very well-liked by most Realms fans (at least from the feedback I got, mostly in places other than here).

Edited by - Mapolq on 28 Oct 2014 02:03:53

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 02:16:39

And if they build a line to Shou Lung, we could have "Murder on the Kara-Tur Exprss"!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 03:48:57

I can't say I didn't think of "The Orient Express to Dhaztanar" as well.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 03:59:59

Personally, I think this project has a much better chance of success if everyone agrees to a specific, in-setting date, and then crafts whatever they want to, so long as it doesn't violate known canon.

Now, before fingers start angrily flying over keyboards, here is my reasoning: no matter what an individual's personal feelings on various timeframes/editions/canon events, canon is an established baseline. And a project like this one that is proposed would benefit greatly from everyone starting on the same baseline.

Say for example that the date 1360 was chosen. If one person focuses on Waterdeep in the aftermath of the Godswar, the next person has a variant ToT where Chauntea married Bane, gave birth to that freaky baby sun thing from the Teletubbies, and Cyric wound up as the god of dung beetles, and then the third person doesn't have the ToT at all, then the whole thing lacks any kind of cohesion.

And I know that for some, the next argument would be that sticking with canon is too limiting. Well, yes, if you want to blow up the moon, then canon is a limitation. But I've scribed a fair bit myself, sticking within the blank and/or grey areas. The identities of all of Waterdeep's Lords were never revealed, so there was plenty of room for me to play there, and make my own. We know constructs were used in the Raumathar-Narfell conflict; I just expanded on that a tiny bit.

For all the detail we do have about this setting, there is still a huge amount of whitespace to fill in.

So that's my suggestion. Pick a date, stick with canon so that everyone is working from the same page, and then go crazy filling in those numerous blank spots.

Oh, and one other thing I've commented on before: If canon material doesn't explicitly address something, any fan-created lore that does address that same something cannot violate canon.

Having offered this suggestion, I will now bow back out of the discussion. The proposed project is not my thing, but I do encourage interested folks to have fun with this.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6646 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 08:32:03

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, there's certain things that just don't meld well with MY realms. For instance, while I can appreciate the idea put forward for the witches of Rashemen in second edition as a group of sister witches who all work well together for the betterment of the country....... I just can't buy it. I liked the mystique they had in first edition, running around, masked from their own populace, daring anyone to try and contradict their rule, using whips on those who needed disciplining to remind them of their place..... meanwhile the witches themselves were infighting amongst themselves.... until someone acts against their country, in which case they all start working against the enemy with guerrilla warfare type tactics. Nowadays, I'd actually like to see a happy medium come in between these two pictures now.

Noted sleyvas. I like the cut of your jib. Now if you could only tell me how to explain the 3E "fey infest Rashemen" trope, that would be great too.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 08:52:57

Hmmm, i think i might need to work on an example first see if i can illustrate my vision better. I want to stick to canon where possible that way it is useful to the most people. I also want to create a new canon that appeals to everyone and fixes the inconsistencies and mistakes, and expand upon the realms as much as possible but in a way that doesnt exclude anybody.

I think i will use the Moonsea area as an example since that is most affected by a plug and play approach. Its going to be just in brief but it'll give me something else to do among my other myriad projects.

Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 10:02:11

Okay here it is in very brief with only a cursory glance at potential places that need cleaning up.

Zhentil Keep: Zhentil Keep�s origins began as a trading outpost between the mines of Tethyamar and the rising fiefdoms of humans in the lands formerly covered by Cormanthor north of the Moonsea.
From its humble beginnings, Zhentil Keep rose to become a major power in the Moonsea area, and a hive of intrigue and corruption ruled by black hearted power mongers eager to maintain their stranglehold on trade in the region.
Zhentil Keep�s zenith came when Manshoon took power in 1261 DR with his ally Fzoul Chembryl. Together these two tyrants have ruled Zhentil Keep through the Zhentarim and the Church of Bane with an iron fist.
The 14th century Dalereckoning has brought much change to Zhentil Keep. Religious strife began in the city starting in 1357 DR when the Church of Bane split and other religious factions began to take hold within the city (see the Time of Troubles event). This began a series of religious conflicts (see the Strifelord event) which culminated in the destruction of Zhentil Keep at the hands of an army of orcs, giants, dragons, and mercenaries (see the Fall of Zhentil Keep event).
In 1370 DR things changed suddenly and drastically for Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim. Manshoon was slain by Fzoul Chembryl and a pit fiend masquerading as Lord Orgauth. This released an unknown number of clones across the realms that continue to fight each other to this day (see the Manshoon Wars event).
In the aftermath of Manshoon�s death, Fzoul Chembryl has seized control of Zhentil Keep and with the blessing of his god has become the leading tyrant in the Moonsea region. The Zhentarim has been reorganised and is now in open control of the Keep, the whole Moonsea and the rest of the realms readies for war as Fzoul begins to flex his muscles with the backing of the Church of Bane.

The Time of Troubles Optional Event 1358 DR
The base version of events assumes that no Time of Troubles took place. The Tablets of Fate were not stolen, and Ao did not punish the gods in any way.
The Church of Bane: In 1357 DR, the schism began by Fzoul Chembryl in 1263 DR finally comes to a head as High Imperceptor Szchulan Darkoon appoints a High Inquisitor and orders him to bring the wayward flock of Bane back into the fold. High Inquisitor Ginali orders an attack on Fzoul and his splinter church of Bane and the result is a true schism that splits the Church of Bane into the Orthodox Church of Bane ruled from Mulmaster by High Imperceptor Szchulan Darkoon, and the Non-Orthodox Church of Bane ruled from Zhentil Keep by High Tyrant Fzoul Chembryl.
Replace any mention of Cyric worshippers and temples with Orthodox Banites or Iyachtu Xvim.
The Zhentarim: The split in the Church of Bane leads to a split in the Zhentarim that becomes more pronounced with the Fall of Zhentil Keep and the death of Manshoon. Sememmon, long a hated rival of Fzoul and loyal ally of Manshoon, split the Black Network in half as he holed himself up in Darkhold following Fzoul�s usurpation of the Zhentarim. In order to cement his hold over Darkhold and the Western Zhentarim, Sememmon supported the Orthodox Church of Bane and its worshippers within Darkhold and ensured their victory over the Non-Orthodox forces in the conflict within the fortress.

Minor Time of Troubles
This version of events assumes that only Bane and Myrkul were punished for their actions in stealing the Tablets of Fate. Myrkul loses his portfolio of the Dead and the afterlife, and Bane loses his portfolio of Strife. Both gods are demoted to Intermediate powers through the loss of this portfolio.
The Church of Bane: The schism in the church of Bane happens as it does with the base event except that in 1369 DR when Iyachtu Xvim escapes his imprisonment he becomes an Intermediate power and gains the portfolio of Strife.
The Non-Orthodox church of Bane is replaced by Iyachtu Xvim.

Time of Troubles
This version of events assumes all the gods are punished for Bane and Myrkul�s actions. Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul, Mystra, Leira, Ibrandul, etc are killed and Cyric becomes a greater power.
The Church of Bane: The schism in the church of Bane soon turns into a power struggle between the faltering Orthodox Church of Bane that remains loyal to the dead god, and the Church of Cyric which replaces the Non-Orthodox Church of Bane. When Iyachtu Xvim escapes imprisonment he wrests much worship from Cyric and gradually rises in power until Bane is reborn in 1372 DR.
The Non-Orthodox church of Bane is replaced by Cyric and then Iyachtu Xvim.

The crux of it is the whole thing revolves around the assumption that certain events are inevitable (Terry Pratchett does a good illustration of this in the Night Watch book). So if we assume that the Church of Bane is destined to split into several pieces in 1358 then that is the beginning of the campaign setting.

So we can refer to the schism in the church of Bane. We can write in assumption that the reader follows the base event (which is no ToT because RSE's and novel events should always be optional and interactive).

So Fzoul Chembryl and Zhentil Keep are officially branded heretics and enemies of Bane by the Orthodox Church. The Orthodox Church is the faction that instigates the Banedeath (1 and 2) and ultimately loses control with Fzoul going into hiding with his faction and returning following the destruction of Zhentil Keep as Bane's chosen tyrant. When the campaign setting is written, all the mentions of Cyric worshippers are replaced with the Orthodox Church of Bane.

Thats the baseline setting that everyone can use.

Then there are two options for the Time of Troubles. 1 is a soft option where only Bane and Myrkul are punished but no one dies. Mykrul gets replaced as Lord of the Dead (an event that i think is also inevitable) and Bane loses the portfolio of Strife.

When Xvim escapes he becomes the god of strife and an intermediate power and basically challenges his father for control of the Church of Bane (by backing Fzoul's faction who ultimately win).

Finally the last option is the full Time of Troubles (although we have an opportunity to iron out all the details and fix any inconsistencies) wherein Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul die. Cyric takes over most of the Church of Bane but ultimately loses Fzoul's faction to Xvim. This one is the option that we all know at the moment but not everyone uses.

The baseline lore is relatively unchanged. Yes the characters and places may worship the Orthodox Churc, Cyric, or Xvim depending upon the options but that is just a name that changes. The orthodox and Non-Orthodox Church split can replace the Bane/Cyric split and so all the intrigue and strife built upon that is retained and no plot hooks are invalidated as a result of making the Time of Troubles optional.

I realise i am focusing on just one area at the moment (the Unther pantheon's demise would need looking at as well, and Waukeen's disappearance) and there is a lot more work involved but thats the basic premise. Everything is optional and no one loses out by choosing to include an optional event or not.

Currently everyone in the realms is split over one RSE or another such as the ToT or the Spellplague. Once someone says "I dont do the Time of Troubles" then their stuff is instantly regarded as of no interest to those that do. However if the lore is reworked to be RSE neutral (cant do anything about the Spellplague but maybe someone smarter than me can come up with something for that) then someone who doesnt do ToT will not have to change the entire realms to fit their preferred options because the work has already been done and the world is largely the same except for a few name changes.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but i think it would be worth it. It might even unite the fan base for once (well those that like the 1357 to 1375 timeline anyway).

I reckon the campaign setting would mostly revolve around sorting out the optional events and working out a way to make the setting all inclusive and yet RSE neutral at the same time. So brief blurbs on a region that captures its flavour and details some important people or places (kind of like the 3rd edition setting), then large details of the various RSEs and novel events and what changes they make to the baseline setting.

Then i'd do more a regional focus with more detail and specifics again sticking to the ideal of RSE neutral and novel event neutral lore so they can be included as optional events without wrecking the world for everyone else.

I dont know if i made that any clearer or just rambled for several pages. From what i can see most of the RSEs actually have very little effect on the realms at large with almost no permanent effects anywhere. The major sticklers are ToT, the madness of Cyric, and the Fall of Zhentil Keep.

Everything else can be boiled down to a few deaths. So the Rage of Dragons can be made optional easily since only a few dragons die and some buildings get burned and replaced quickly. the Death of Azoun can be made optional if Azoun is assassinated or dies in his sleep. The crusade could be removed relatively easily since the only lasting effect in Faerun are some orcs still living in Thesk so just have the Zhentarim try and expand east and fail. The Silence of Lolth ends up with Maerimydra being destroyed and that could happen anyway with or without Lolth's silence (she isnt the type to help save a city if they arent strong enough to save themselves). Its all pretty much optional already, we can just make it properly optional and at the same time work out what actually happened and fix the broken stuff.

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 11:55:34

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That being said, there's certain things that just don't meld well with MY realms. For instance, while I can appreciate the idea put forward for the witches of Rashemen in second edition as a group of sister witches who all work well together for the betterment of the country....... I just can't buy it. I liked the mystique they had in first edition, running around, masked from their own populace, daring anyone to try and contradict their rule, using whips on those who needed disciplining to remind them of their place..... meanwhile the witches themselves were infighting amongst themselves.... until someone acts against their country, in which case they all start working against the enemy with guerrilla warfare type tactics. Nowadays, I'd actually like to see a happy medium come in between these two pictures now.

Noted sleyvas. I like the cut of your jib. Now if you could only tell me how to explain the 3E "fey infest Rashemen" trope, that would be great too.

-- George Krashos

Well, while they were ruling from behind masks, there were still some who were more like the ones we see today. Basically, I see the "witches" as multiple different fractious cults that work together because they want to protect their homeland (. MOST would be nature oriented, and some would have links to the Seelie and/or UnSeelie courts. Each "Cult" would have a subtle twist on how it uses its nature magics (i.e. one may focus on ley line magic, another may focus on working with fairies, another may focus on working with the spirits of the land, another may focus on the elements themselves, another may focus on the natural animals of the world, some might be moon worshippers, others may focus on illusions and be spies for the Rashemi, etc....). You could still do all of this mostly with the current buildout, but the portrayal right now is kind of "they're all the same flavor".
However, these witches would be as unforgiving as nature is, and sometimes nature might require certain sacrifices (note, I'm not picturing human sacrifices.... I'm thinking things like having to hang oneself out in the cold to commune with the winter spirits, giving up valuable commodities for the fey folk, etc...). The people of Rashemen don't necessarily love these witch rulers, because to a degree they're otherworldly. This is further fueled by the fact that the witches will simply take any child showing magical capability. I was very happy to see the concept of the Durthan in 3.5, I just wish the class itself had been better designed.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 12:09:45

Oh, and while I like the idea of the vremyonni.... I wouldn't be surprised if SOME cults of the Rashemi witches find some means to transfer the magical nature of male children and transfer them to their own offspring. They may then mindwipe the child of the experience and send them home with some story for the parents. The whole concept that the female witches can't make magic items I find silly as well.... that's just a construct to give a reason for the males in caves existence. After all, they obviously do brewing

Oh, and finally, some of these cults of Rashemi witches should consist of hags, which may be a good reason for why they wear masks.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
6646 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 12:36:09

What I was pointing to was Rashemen's seemingly unique connection with "spirits" (they might be fey - I'd prefer not) and their prevalenece there. Why is that the case? Why are they unique in that regard? (other than the whim of the UE designer who just decided to transfer a bunch of Eastern European folklore into the place, wholesale of course)

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Demzer
Senior Scribe

873 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 13:46:10

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

What I was pointing to was Rashemen's seemingly unique connection with "spirits" (they might be fey - I'd prefer not) and their prevalenece there. Why is that the case? Why are they unique in that regard? (other than the whim of the UE designer who just decided to transfer a bunch of Eastern European folklore into the place, wholesale of course)

-- George Krashos

Eh, in my Realms all those spirits in Rashemen were just the manifestations of the hundreds of demons that were sleeping under Rashemen after Eltab's defeat, bound to serve their lord on the Prime until the Adamantine Binding was no more but "banished"* by the witches during Yvengi's revolt.
*"Banished" because until the Adamantine Binding is destroyed and Eltab is sent back to the Abyss these demons can't leave Toril, so are instead imprisoned.

Of course, this strange situation so narrowly focused in Rashemen caused planar boundaries to falter and so you have elementals and the spirits of the deceased into the mix too.

Fast forward to 1374 a cunny demoness bent on conquering Toril taught the Durthan the secret rituals to awaken the demons and Rashemen, the Great Dale, Narfell and Thesk were torn apart by hundreds of demons freed after centuries. Luckily for everyone the Red Wizards were succesfully invading Rashemen and were close by to battle the demons before the situation went too much out of control.

That's my spin on things, this is what happened in my campaign.

Edited by - Demzer on 28 Oct 2014 13:46:37

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 13:46:14

See? This is why we can't have nice things.

I do not like the Rashemen lore as is. I've tweaked the hell out of it. Guess what? I've done that EVERWHERE!!! The 'loose canon' approach of 1e/2e engendered that - for DMs to make The Realms 'theirs'.

Some things in FR I like better then others, but everything gets modified to some degree to fit my world-view better. Doing this to MY version of FR is fine; doing it to the canon Realms is not. This is why I actually do not envy designers - the hardest thing in the world is to realize when you've stepped over a line and have entered into the Realm of "this is wholly mine and doesn't belong anywhere near the Realms", or what some folks like to call derisively, "homebrewed-crap".

Some designers understand this and have a knack for it - they know how to make their lore look like it was Ed's. Others... not so much. Late 3e on into 4e (and hopefully NOT 5e) took a turn in the 'homebrew' direction, doing all sorts of things that didn't feel like FR, at all. Thats what happens when you have people who aren't fans of the setting in charge of the setting - they try to turn it into something it's not. You know why Golarion (Paizo/Pathfinder) is so wildly popular? Because it became FR when FR stopped being FR.

And thats the whole problem - a fan-driven 'new world' will look like not one person's 'homebrewed mess', but a dozen different people's messes, and thats BAD. What we need is a team of (old school) FR experts & designers who also happen to be fans of the setting and fully understand whats really going on in Ed's world (it amazes me how few people do) to 'build a better yesterday'. Not tomorrow, because tomorrow is gone - just one of the many paradoxes of working on an RPG setting.

Let WotC have their tomorrow; they love it - let THEM live with it (and any fans it may engender). We have OUR FR - we just need the right team of guys to expand THAT setting. This isn't a pipe-dream - it can happen, when people care enough.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2014 13:48:44

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 14:28:28

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

What I was pointing to was Rashemen's seemingly unique connection with "spirits" (they might be fey - I'd prefer not) and their prevalenece there. Why is that the case? Why are they unique in that regard? (other than the whim of the UE designer who just decided to transfer a bunch of Eastern European folklore into the place, wholesale of course)

-- George Krashos

If it was up to me, I'd say that there were a lot of ley line convergences (nexuses? nexi? nexces?) right there, and the strong magical background makes it easier for spirits to cross over or manifest in the area. I'd also borrow the Midgard idea of having "flavored" ley lines; many of the ley lines in this area are more associated with nature magic.

Thay might also be home to a higher-than-average number of ley lines, though fewer than Rashemen. I'd say at least one of the Thayan ley lines may be related to fire; another may be related to negative energy.

Aglarond, I'd say, has more ley lines than Thay, but still less than Rashemen. For Aglarond, I'd say their ley lines cover nature and planar magic.

That particular corner (the whole UE area) of the Realms seems to have a lot more of a magical background than a lot of other areas of the Realms, and a higher prevalence of ley lines could be why. And Ed's Realms did have ley lines. I don't recall if they've made it into canon, but I do like the concept.

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Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 15:54:23

I'm going to bite my tongue and say I would be willing to do something (writing included) to help a project like this. But there's two caveats:

1- I won't enter it if there is not a clear goal with which I agree. I don't mean I'll expect to agree with every bit of writing, but there's some things that are paramount, like deciding whether we are building an extension of canon, or a new Realms.

Big addendum: I will try my best not to be shooting ideas down like before, but I cannot see the "timeline options" thing working. This would mean instead of one line of canon, we would have a whole tree of it. And I don't see a project like this as something we put there and stop talking about it forever, if it really works, then it begs to be expanded even more! And I freeze at the though of managing a continuity where every major event has three possible endings that go on branching and branching...

2- I would need a project manager, or at least a group of people on top whose knowledge of the Realms and dedication to it pretty much can't be doubted (wouldn't do any harm if they're professionally used to writing and/or editing either). I don't have nearly the amount of experience necessary for such things, I can barely count myself as a possible good side-contributor. We have people like that here, but I'm not sure they'd like to take on such a massive workload.

That's the bare minimum to start talking how to do it for me.

Edited by - Mapolq on 28 Oct 2014 15:57:24

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 15:58:34

We know (through the novel Darkvision) that the Fey had 'dealings with' the Imaskari, and the whole of the Hordelands region has a very 'spiritual' vibe (see Mark Sehestedt's Frostfell novel). We also know that both the Narfelli and Raumanthar empires 'dabbled' in summoning things from other planes, and although the fiendish parts are well-known, we also see in Frostfell that the Raumathari had earlier, more 'druidic' traditions before they were despoiled by their contact with Narfell.

Thus, its easy to guess that (some) eastern peoples might have a smattering of 'fey heritage' in their blood, and thus a connection to the 'spirit world' (Feywild).

There's no need to bring someone's leyline hombrew into it. The lore is already there, we just have to build upon it. The 3e designers must have realized this when they put Spiritfolk (fey-bloodline) into Unapproachable East.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Edited by - Markustay on 28 Oct 2014 15:59:56

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 17:06:26

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

We know (through the novel Darkvision) that the Fey had 'dealings with' the Imaskari, and the whole of the Hordelands region has a very 'spiritual' vibe (see Mark Sehestedt's Frostfell novel). We also know that both the Narfelli and Raumanthar empires 'dabbled' in summoning things from other planes, and although the fiendish parts are well-known, we also see in Frostfell that the Raumathari had earlier, more 'druidic' traditions before they were despoiled by their contact with Narfell.

Thus, its easy to guess that (some) eastern peoples might have a smattering of 'fey heritage' in their blood, and thus a connection to the 'spirit world' (Feywild).

There's no need to bring someone's leyline hombrew into it. The lore is already there, we just have to build upon it. The 3e designers must have realized this when they put Spiritfolk (fey-bloodline) into Unapproachable East.

THO has told us that Ed's Realms had ley lines... And the published Midgard Campaign Setting includes ley lines and has rules for using them. So it's not homebrew -- it's a published ruleset that can be used for something Ed wrote into the setting.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Oct 2014 17:08:55

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 17:08:31

quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq

2- I would need a project manager, or at least a group of people on top whose knowledge of the Realms and dedication to it pretty much can't be doubted (wouldn't do any harm if they're professionally used to writing and/or editing either). I don't have nearly the amount of experience necessary for such things, I can barely count myself as a possible good side-contributor. We have people like that here, but I'm not sure they'd like to take on such a massive workload.

I would agree that a project like this would need a project manager, or a small group of them.

Note that I am not volunteering -- I've no problem with offering some advice on this project here and there, but I have no plans to contribute anything more than that.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6353 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 19:43:32

quote:
1- I won't enter it if there is not a clear goal with which I agree. I don't mean I'll expect to agree with every bit of writing, but there's some things that are paramount, like deciding whether we are building an extension of canon, or a new Realms.

Big addendum: I will try my best not to be shooting ideas down like before, but I cannot see the "timeline options" thing working. This would mean instead of one line of canon, we would have a whole tree of it. And I don't see a project like this as something we put there and stop talking about it forever, if it really works, then it begs to be expanded even more! And I freeze at the though of managing a continuity where every major event has three possible endings that go on branching and branching...

2- I would need a project manager, or at least a group of people on top whose knowledge of the Realms and dedication to it pretty much can't be doubted (wouldn't do any harm if they're professionally used to writing and/or editing either). I don't have nearly the amount of experience necessary for such things, I can barely count myself as a possible good side-contributor. We have people like that here, but I'm not sure they'd like to take on such a massive workload.

You are quite right about too much branching. The timeline should be a straight line so its either a yes or no for the events, no halfway house.

Since none of the RSEs or novels actually connect in anyway (and haven't been elaborated on in the sourcebooks) then its not breaking anything if they are ignored.

1 - For me the goal would be to build an extension of canon. However canon is mutable (look at how Rashemen or Chessenta or even Shar has changed over the editions depending upon who wrote the sourcebook). Each edition brought its own interpretation of the facts. So the facts remain, it is the interpretation that can be altered. In any discussion of the realms on any topic you can always find half a dozen quotes to back up any side of an argument. That's the beauty of it. Sleyvas wants Rashemen depicted differently, well there is no reason that cannot be done. The facts are Rashemen is controlled by the witches. We know they kidnap children. We know they dislike outsiders. Therefore no one can really know what goes on inside Rashemen. What everyone though was a united front could be a council of factions constantly at each others throats with the eldest witch trying to keep them all in line behind her. By giving an alternate interpretation it does not break with canon, merely gives a different viewpoint on it.

As part of extending canon it is also necessary to decide what should and should not be canon. I think everyone can agree the novels have good and bad points in equal measure, they alter canon to suit their story and that is sometimes bad, but in other ways they expand the realms and that is good. So again for me personally I feel the goal would be to reinterpret the facts of the novels. That's why I think all the novels and RSEs should be optional. I hate at least half of them and begrudge having to include them in my Realms and I don't think anyone else should have to either (more often than not they don't add to the realms they take away from it).
So in summation the goal is expand canon, make a decision on what is canon (because canon is often conflicting), and where possible attempt to correct the mistakes.

2 - As for the second point. I only have my own services to offer and I have little experience beyond organising my Alternate Dimensions fan mag. Without someone else offering their expertise it is unlikely we will have the conditions you require.

Mapolq
Senior Scribe

Brazil
466 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2014 : 21:44:24

I like your Alternate Dimensions magazine, and you definitely score more points then I do on the experience and knowledge issue, but yes... I'd like to see some more weight behind the project if it's to really become something the community can carry forward.

Edit: thanks for the clarification on the options thing, I thought you wanted to present those option trees to the reader.

Edited by - Mapolq on 28 Oct 2014 21:46:16

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 00:32:06

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

What I was pointing to was Rashemen's seemingly unique connection with "spirits" (they might be fey - I'd prefer not) and their prevalenece there. Why is that the case? Why are they unique in that regard? (other than the whim of the UE designer who just decided to transfer a bunch of Eastern European folklore into the place, wholesale of course)

-- George Krashos

Ah, the CORE reason for this I don't have tightly wound, as I don't need to in order to run a game there, so I leave it open for changes later. However, let us take a stab at it based on some of the ideas that myself and Dazzlerdal were working on last year. The Unapproachable East area used to be covered with elemental, nature-oriented, and fey beings LOOONNNNNGGGG ago. The people back then from this area didn't worship gods. As a result, when a being died, its spirit was reborn into the world. Some of these spirits might have been reborn into the body of a wolf (thus forming some of the first Lythari, or making the first quaggoths, gnolls, hybsil, centaurs, etc....). Anyway, over time, these realms became more "civilized" but yet in the wildlands, the people still followed some of the old ways.

Along come a fallout kingdom which grows in magical power by uncovering lost lore of Imaskar. This realm, Raumathar, focuses on the power of the elements and nature. The males focus on the powers of earth and fire, encompassed in the great power of iron. The females focus on the powers of wind and water, and as a result find themselves more in contact with the fey powers of nature. While the males focused on working with primordial lords Kossuth and Grumbar, the women worked with the nature spirits Bhalla, Khelliara, and the Hidden One (note, whether this "hidden one" was in fact Ao or Mystryl or an entirely different being could make some decidedly good lore... in fact, having her be Leira could prove interesting). This trinity of beings did not teach their flock that they should seek to serve them in an afterlife on another plane. Instead, they taught "the old ways" in which a person would die but continue to serve their land and protect their descendants. As a result, Rashemen has a kind of ancestor worship that we would consider common to spirit shamans. In fact, I'd make it that most of the Rashemi priestess' are in fact spirit shamans or druids rather than clerics. (sidenote: my version of the "standard" wychlaran would be something like the mystic theurge, learning arcane and divine magic, and having no circle magic ability). Anyway, since they still hold to the old beliefs that they should return to the land when they die, the area developed ghostly telthors. However, some of those who die are "reborn" as nature spirits in one form or another rather than telthors. In fact, the witches may even have some rituals for twisting souls of the recently deceased in such a manner as to reform them into elemental spirits (something that religions in other parts of the realms might consider blasphemous).

It was later that Bhalla was replaced by Chauntea and Khelliara was replaced by Mielikki and the hidden one by Mystra then Selune. How that happened and/or why.... haven't bothered to develop it.

Anyway, that's a rough stab at the idea. It could definitely improved through cooperative building (which is what I enjoy). Take a whack at it with a stick and see where it leads.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11696 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2014 : 00:39:40

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

What I was pointing to was Rashemen's seemingly unique connection with "spirits" (they might be fey - I'd prefer not) and their prevalenece there. Why is that the case? Why are they unique in that regard? (other than the whim of the UE designer who just decided to transfer a bunch of Eastern European folklore into the place, wholesale of course)

-- George Krashos

If it was up to me, I'd say that there were a lot of ley line convergences (nexuses? nexi? nexces?) right there, and the strong magical background makes it easier for spirits to cross over or manifest in the area. I'd also borrow the Midgard idea of having "flavored" ley lines; many of the ley lines in this area are more associated with nature magic.

Thay might also be home to a higher-than-average number of ley lines, though fewer than Rashemen. I'd say at least one of the Thayan ley lines may be related to fire; another may be related to negative energy.

Aglarond, I'd say, has more ley lines than Thay, but still less than Rashemen. For Aglarond, I'd say their ley lines cover nature and planar magic.

That particular corner (the whole UE area) of the Realms seems to have a lot more of a magical background than a lot of other areas of the Realms, and a higher prevalence of ley lines could be why. And Ed's Realms did have ley lines. I don't recall if they've made it into canon, but I do like the concept.

Yes, I'd definitely steal Midgard's ley line lore. However, I'd have it that the ley lines are linked there BECAUSE the people there know how to manipulate and feed ley lines. In fact, they may feed ley lines with soul energy from male children with magical ability. This is why one of the variant wychlaran prestige classes I developed was called the "leythran" and indeed built on the Midgard system.

Whether the ley lines CAUSED the large number of spirits, or whether the use of spirit energy to feed/increase the ley lines "leaked" excess energy and formed telthors.... there could be room for different interpretations.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

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