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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 20:32:57
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Anyone know of any map of Waterdeep post-Spellplague?
From what little post-SP stuff I've read, the 'City of Splendors' is one big stinking cesspit now, all run-down and dirty (it went from 'Metropolis' to 'Gotham'). For example, I know there is some sort of pile of sunken wreckage in the harbor, and I am trying to figure-out where that - and any other changes - are located.
This is all for my new 5e campaign, BTW. Not planning for the PCs to wind-up in Waterdeep anytime soon, but you never know.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2014 : 20:42:46
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You had to say Gotham. Durnit Markus, you made it sound cool. I'm having visions of adapting Batman to Waterdeep.  (I need an exasperated emoticon.) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2014 : 03:19:11
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I do plan on adapting the Mere of Dead Men series to 5e - its right in the same area as the 5e starter material.
So if Batman and the 'Super Friends' are all in waterdeep now, I guess I can put the 'Legion of Doom' in the mere. 
So was there a 4e Waterdeep product? Or maybe something in the online Dragon (DDi) stuff?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2014 03:20:57 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 01:39:29
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While there's a lot of changes topographically around the harbor and previously unnoticed/unmentioned south of Castle Waterdeep, much of the rest of the city (at least in terms of how the map looks) would be pretty much intact, if I remember the Waterdeep post-Spellplague bible correctly. I wouldn't have made the analogy to Gotham myself as it's only that dark in places, not wide swathes--and it's always been dark in places like Dock Ward & such. Think of it more as Marvel's NYC--it's noir-dark in spots like DD"s Hell's Kitchen & wherever the hell the Punisher lurks that night, but other places can be FF-bright and optimistic or politically tinged like Avengers Mansion et al.
Waterdeep, like all great metropolii, has many shades and many flavors, depending upon which closed court or alley into which you've wandered unawares.
Myself, I prefer to think of it as James Robinson's Starman's home of Opal City--a different flavor for many different people, all with their highlights and lowlights alike. |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 01:45:21
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| I never understood the changes to the harbor... Why would a city built on the shipping trade not do everything it could to keep its harbor fully functional? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 14:10:24
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For the same reason why NY can't fix its terribly broken Subway system. Graft, corruption, & unions (guilds) that protect the workers even though NOTHING ever gets done.
Personally, I like the new Waterdeep flavor - much closer to reality then the 'shining example' Waterdeep used to be. Power corrupts - its that simple. With no Blackstaff looking over everyone's shoulder, the place has just become 'normal'.
And Steven - in one of the few post-plague novels I read, there was a scene where the character was racing from the worst part of Waterdeep (it may have been that stinking pile in the harbor) to the 'elite' section, and as they ran past they described once-beautiful parks run down, dilapidated buildings, broken statuary, etc - EVERWHERE. The place had 'lost its luster'.
Now, for me, thats great. its the difference between the 'shiny' original series Battlestar Galactica and the gritty newer series. Life isn't 'shiny' - its dirty, and people are awful. The new Waterdeep (as presented in that novel) reflects real life, and I am all for that. No 'black & white' - just a million 'shades of gray'.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2014 16:20:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 15:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
For the same reason why NY can't fix is terribly broken Subway system. Graft, corruption, & unions (guilds) that protect the workers even though NOTHING ever gets done.
Not at all the same thing. New York doesn't exist because of, and make the majority of its money from, the subway system.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Personally, I like the new Waterdeep flavor - much closer to reality then the 'shining example' Waterdeep used to be. Power corrupts - its that simple. With no Blackstaff looking over everyone's shoulder, the place has just become 'normal'.
It wasn't just the Blackstaff that kept it all straight, though -- part of it was the self-policing of the city's leadership. That's a part of why the changes don't work for me -- goodly Lords selecting other goodly Lords doesn't lead to the 4E version of the city.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Steven - in one of the few post-plague novels I read, there was a scene where the character was racing from the worst part of Waterdeep (it may have been that stinking pile in the harbor) to the 'elite' section, and as they ran past they described once-beautiful parks run down, dilapidated buildings, broken statuary, etc - EVERWHERE. The place had 'lost its luster'.
That was the same impression I got. It was no longer the City of Splendors.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, for me, thats great. its the difference between the 'shiny' original series Battlestar Galactica and the gritty newer series. Life isn't 'shiny' - its dirty, and people are awful. The new Waterdeep (as presented in that novel) reflects real life, and I am all for that. No 'black & white' - just a million 'shades of gray'.
The mostly bright and shiny nature of Waterdeep is one of the things that made me such a dedicated Realms fan -- I love Waterdeep, as it was. Reading a couple novels set in post-Spellplague Waterdeep, and seeing what had been done to my favorite corner of the Realms, was what kept me from reading any other novels from that era. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Sep 2014 15:36:28 |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 20:56:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now, for me, thats great. its the difference between the 'shiny' original series Battlestar Galactica and the gritty newer series. Life isn't 'shiny' - its dirty, and people are awful. The new Waterdeep (as presented in that novel) reflects real life, and I am all for that. No 'black & white' - just a million 'shades of gray'.
The mostly bright and shiny nature of Waterdeep is one of the things that made me such a dedicated Realms fan -- I love Waterdeep, as it was. Reading a couple novels set in post-Spellplague Waterdeep, and seeing what had been done to my favorite corner of the Realms, was what kept me from reading any other novels from that era.
And Wooly's reasoning here is why I'd hoped I'd get another chance to write a novel with the Blackstaff Tower characters. I really wanted them to inspire others to restore Waterdeep to what it once was--a place for heroes. |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2014 : 21:29:11
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| With magic returning to something like normal, Waterdeep certainly can be restored. If it will or not likely depends on the Secret Lords of Waterdeep. Waterdeep did not become "City of Splendors" in one year or ten, it was built piece by piece over decades or maybe hundreds of years. Suuch repair and reconstruction can not be as simple as higher taxes, it requires the personal wealth and skills of the Lords. One thing Waterdeep has going for it that for example New Orleans does not, is that magic works in the realms in far better ways then any magic of RW. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 08:51:10
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When I read these discussions about Waterdeep and the comparisons between its portrayals in both pre- and post-Spellplague material, I'm often reminded of a quote Frank Miller once uttered when asked about working with the city of New York in the comic book medium. [Or was it Neil Gaiman? I can't quite recall.]
Anyway, to quote as best I can from memory, Miller once stated that he saw "New York City as being 'shiny and bright' like Metropolis during the day and being 'dark and gritty' like Gotham at night."
...
That's how I've often come to view Waterdeep in my Realms, and especially so after adapting some of the post-Spellplague elements into my workings with the city for some later campaigns. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 16:27:36
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I would like to see some of the dragons and other hidden assets of Waterdeep play a significant role in restoring the city. Probably not stepping into the limelight or becoming widely known benefactors (even in disguise) but more of a completely secret thing. Jalanvaloss owned a lot of property circa 1375, for instance. Waterdeep has been her home for a while, and she has a huge stake in its success. Plenty of reason for her to use her own resources and call in favors to renovate the neighborhoods surrounding her properties. I'm sure there are several others in similar situations, provided that they weren't all killed off. And of course a new guard develops in place of the ones that are killed off.
There's a lot to be said for humanity rebuilding what it destroys, and what falls around its ears. But there's also something poignant about the silent and the hidden stepping up to create/recreate a city that enables them to survive, silent and hidden. Elves should still be present in small numbers, and I would love to read a story about a building shaped to resemble a residence that stood on this spot in the days of Aelinthaldaar, known to humans only as a curiously shaped landmark, or a museum known only to elves, holding knickknacks and family heirlooms recovered over the years from the ruins of the various elven kingdoms of the Sword Coast.
As the edition numbers climb and catastrophes accompany, we need such references to the past to preserve a link to what's come before.
Speaking of which... let's wait until after this whole Tyranny of Dragons lunacy destroys whatever it's going to destroy, before rebuilding. Wouldn't want to have to rebuild the entire city twice. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 16:29:50
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Well, I guess being born in NYC and living in NY (LI - which is just a humongous suburb for the city) my whole life, I was never drawn to Waterdeep, much in the same way as that 'natives' never visit the landmarks (I've been to the Statue of Liberty - which is more then most NYers - but not the Empire state Building). To me, Waterdeep aspires to be the NY of the Forgotten Realms... but falls short.
So I guess the 'shiny bright' turned me off, because I know its not real. I get to see the best and worst parts of the city. I've been to parades and New Year's in times square, and I've also gotten robbed. Its literally a rainbow of society, with all its myriad shades.
And now that I can picture Waterdeep that way, its all good. There's a real city I can sink my teeth into - one with bird-poop on the the statues. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Sep 2014 16:31:09 |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2014 : 17:36:52
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The novels in the "Ed Greenwood Presents..." series give a good description of the "floating pile of wreckage." I'd recommend a reading of "Mistshore." If memory serves me correctly, both the commercial and military harbors are corrupted.
Good Hunting! |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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New Waterdeep Map?
