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Originally posted by Irennan

If this were to be made official (and I really hope so), it would also explains why Corellon didn't show even the slightest emotion at the end: both his children actually never died.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Brylock

I think at least to some degree drow are "programmed" before birth with things that make them have strong tendencies towards evil.
They retconned some stuff in those recent novels, but it's even the current explanation in 5e that certain races are nearly always evil not just out of nurture but because their deity cruelly created them with tendencies that strongly push them towards evil (orcs being biologically inclined to great fury and violence) because that nets them a steadier stream of devoted worshippers since they have less choice in the matter then normal.
I think that's as good an explanation as any for why the drow are so depraved, whatever Lolth (and that Wendonai demon in Faerun) did to them after they fell after the Crown Wars made them more or less genetically predisposed towards their twisted behaviors.
I think every once in awhile due to the influence of Elistraee one is born with true choice between good or evil like every other free race. This would nicely explain why guys like Drizzt were so different even though he went through the exact same nuture that other drow did and yet never really became as terrible a person. Sadly, I imagine that most drow who have free will eventually choose evil in the end because they aren't aware there's any better options in their horrid little culture rather then take the risky and dangerous route of trying to find a better way to live and abandon everything they know for an uncertain future.

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The drow weren't really created with ''biological'' tendecy towards evil, though. Lolth had some matrons mate with Wendonai, and his ''taint'' eventually, with time, catched up to most drow. However, it isn't gamebreaking, as --for example-- most Eilistraee's followers were/are still ''tainted'' and yet they manage to choose a different way. Drizzt himself is tainted. The thing said at the end of LP (the ''unwilling'' were cast down and there is nothing to do for them) is the actual retcon. If we look at previous examples, and to how, like I said, tainted drow have free will: having Lolth's breath on their neck, her continuous brainwahsing has a much larger influence in their behaviour than some taint. For comparison, if you take a child and show to him/her that love doesn't exist, that happiness is weakness, that the only ''joy'' is in dominating over the others, and that they have no value beyond thei social status. If you show him/her that violence is the only way to survival, and that anything else would lead to his/her death.. what will become of said child? (S)he will likely grow up insane, twisted and broken like most drow are.

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Vhaeraun wants his people to NOT be slaves to their nature, but the master of it instead.
Lolth would have the drow remain more or less as they are, but Vhaeraun would rather be like Bane or Bhaal; sure his worshippers have choice, but are they any less powerful because of it? No, in fact they are GREATER then Lolth in some ways and have constantly had more influence, specifically because their worshippers aren't automatically inclined to be evil but have to make the choice themselves.
Vhaeraun's like some sort of twisted emancipator figure; he want's his people free...admittedly free to go do the same things they do now, just to everyone else and not just themselves, but free nonetheless.
It's why I could kinda see Elistraee and him at a sort of mutually agreed ceasefire; they want the same thing in different ways, and both know Lolth is the biggest obstacle to achieving it.

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That's true. Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun share a goal, in part at least, and it makes no sense for them to be at each other's throat when Lolth is out there. But,as Ed said, spending time as the Masked Lady, they learned to understand and respect each other, and I think that this opened the minds of both for the better.

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Originally posted by Brylock

[...]

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Originally posted by Lilianviaten

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Originally posted by Irennan

If this were to be made official (and I really hope so), it would also explains why Corellon didn't show even the slightest emotion at the end: both his children actually never died.

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Corellon doing nothing at the end of the novel fits exactly with what he's been doing all this time. His elves have caused multiple magical catastrophes over the centuries, altering all of Faerun, and he does nothing to limit their use of High Magic. He does zero outreach to those good drow who could be reached, those descendants of the Miyeritari who were unfairly banished from the surface due to his reckless worshippers (and might I add that gold elves are every bit as worthy of getting banished as the drow, yet never have been).

He's completely impotent as a deity. We've seen Lolth, Gruumsh, and other evil deities raise up Chosen and relentlessly attack his children. We've seen human expansion push the elves out of their natural habitats. We've seen Myth Drannor under siege by Shar's minions. Corellon is either the least active Greater God in the Realms, or writers just choose to ignore him like they do Selune. He's never even shown lifting a finger to aid his daughter Eilistraee in her difficult uphill battle against Lolth.

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Maybe Correllon believes so strongly in free will that he refuses to intervene in mortal affairs except in certain very special cases?

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Brylock

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Brylock

I think at least to some degree drow are "programmed" before birth with things that make them have strong tendencies towards evil.
They retconned some stuff in those recent novels, but it's even the current explanation in 5e that certain races are nearly always evil not just out of nurture but because their deity cruelly created them with tendencies that strongly push them towards evil (orcs being biologically inclined to great fury and violence) because that nets them a steadier stream of devoted worshippers since they have less choice in the matter then normal.
I think that's as good an explanation as any for why the drow are so depraved, whatever Lolth (and that Wendonai demon in Faerun) did to them after they fell after the Crown Wars made them more or less genetically predisposed towards their twisted behaviors.
I think every once in awhile due to the influence of Elistraee one is born with true choice between good or evil like every other free race. This would nicely explain why guys like Drizzt were so different even though he went through the exact same nuture that other drow did and yet never really became as terrible a person. Sadly, I imagine that most drow who have free will eventually choose evil in the end because they aren't aware there's any better options in their horrid little culture rather then take the risky and dangerous route of trying to find a better way to live and abandon everything they know for an uncertain future.

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The drow weren't really created with ''biological'' tendecy towards evil, though. Lolth had some matrons mate with Wendonai, and his ''taint'' eventually, with time, catched up to most drow. However, it isn't gamebreaking, as --for example-- most Eilistraee's followers were/are still ''tainted'' and yet they manage to choose a different way. Drizzt himself is tainted. The thing said at the end of LP (the ''unwilling'' were cast down and there is nothing to do for them) is the actual retcon. If we look at previous examples, and to how, like I said, tainted drow have free will: having Lolth's breath on their neck, her continuous brainwahsing has a much larger influence in their behaviour than some taint. For comparison, if you take a child and show to him/her that love doesn't exist, that happiness is weakness, that the only ''joy'' is in dominating over the others, and that they have no value beyond thei social status. If you show him/her that violence is the only way to survival, and that anything else would lead to his/her death.. what will become of said child? (S)he will likely grow up insane, twisted and broken like most drow are.

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Vhaeraun wants his people to NOT be slaves to their nature, but the master of it instead.
Lolth would have the drow remain more or less as they are, but Vhaeraun would rather be like Bane or Bhaal; sure his worshippers have choice, but are they any less powerful because of it? No, in fact they are GREATER then Lolth in some ways and have constantly had more influence, specifically because their worshippers aren't automatically inclined to be evil but have to make the choice themselves.
Vhaeraun's like some sort of twisted emancipator figure; he want's his people free...admittedly free to go do the same things they do now, just to everyone else and not just themselves, but free nonetheless.
It's why I could kinda see Elistraee and him at a sort of mutually agreed ceasefire; they want the same thing in different ways, and both know Lolth is the biggest obstacle to achieving it.

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That's true. Both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun share a goal, in part at least, and it makes no sense for them to be at each other's throat when Lolth is out there. But,as Ed said, spending time as the Masked Lady, they learned to understand and respect each other, and I think that this opened the minds of both for the better.

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I mean, I know all that with the Wendonai taint thing.
But the other explanation for everything is simply "the Realms has very bad writing and even worse editors", as at no point is "nature versus nurture" brought up when it comes to good drow (which apparently there's enough of to sustain a goddess) because basically without exception all are raised the exact same way as other drow given the uniformity of their culture.
Good drow are good "because", with no explanation and zero story or writing impetus as to why they suddenly turned out better and had a conscience when every other drow kid went through literally the exact same thing and did NOT turn into a decent person.

The answers to these questions of course exist out of universe; most Realms novelists aren't particularly good authors, drow are popular so they created more good drow, Elistraee gained more prominence as good drow characters became more common, and so on and so forth.
Like many DM's and players I like to think my way around bad writing and try to come up with slightly more stable and internally consistent explanations rather just throw up my hands and admit "Yeah, a lot of it is just garbage, but what can you do? Roll up your PC already".

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Oh, I agree. However, since it is stated nowhere that drow are born evil, if we are to make our personal explanation, then I'd like to not involve biology, original sin, or whatever you have in this kind of matter. IMO, it cheapens it. Why some drow manage to escape and other don't? Various reasons: IMO every drow sees the nonsense in the life they're forced to experience. Ed has also said (and this is canon) that (quoting what it is said on the FR wiki, which paraphrases what Ed said):

''Eilistraee sings her call to all dark elves—from the highest matron mother to the lowest male slave[...] The drow definitely come to know about and "feel" the Dark Dancer at some point in their lives, but many don't understand or choose to disbelieve/reject them[...] Even then, many drow secretly yearn for the goddess and all that she wishes for them''

So, while many drow may want to escape, you can't expect most of them to have the resources or the intelligence to do so without aid. A lot of them don't even understand their desire, and may need someone to help them get their ideas together. Even for those who know what they want, escaping their lives and beginning anew elsewhere is not easy: drow are hated, they are often attacked on sight. The underdark is an hostile place, so being an exile there is hard; the surface is an unknown and alien land to them (and dangerous too). Faced with this perspective, most drow don't feel like they have a real choice. That's also why Eilistraeens have undercover priestesses living in drow cities, to find and aid those drow.

Also, the life that Lolth imposes to the drow isn't merely evil: it is of self-destruction and sacrifice. The drow are worth nothing in their society (and they know that), they don't know what genuine joy is, what freedom is and so on. ''Evil'' doesn't equal to this, and even ''evil'' people would seek an alternative to this.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Lilianviaten

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Originally posted by Irennan

If this were to be made official (and I really hope so), it would also explains why Corellon didn't show even the slightest emotion at the end: both his children actually never died.

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Corellon doing nothing at the end of the novel fits exactly with what he's been doing all this time. His elves have caused multiple magical catastrophes over the centuries, altering all of Faerun, and he does nothing to limit their use of High Magic. He does zero outreach to those good drow who could be reached, those descendants of the Miyeritari who were unfairly banished from the surface due to his reckless worshippers (and might I add that gold elves are every bit as worthy of getting banished as the drow, yet never have been).

He's completely impotent as a deity. We've seen Lolth, Gruumsh, and other evil deities raise up Chosen and relentlessly attack his children. We've seen human expansion push the elves out of their natural habitats. We've seen Myth Drannor under siege by Shar's minions. Corellon is either the least active Greater God in the Realms, or writers just choose to ignore him like they do Selune. He's never even shown lifting a finger to aid his daughter Eilistraee in her difficult uphill battle against Lolth.

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Yeah, that's my concern as well. He doesn't do anything ever. At the end of the LP he just appears and is all like ''Yay, free followers'' (assuming that Eilistraee's followers would actually follow him). He doesn't show any feeling towards his daughter or son, nothing. I feel that it is OOC for Corellon to do so (Ed's version of the events would justify his behaviour when he appears at the end of those novels, at least)

@combatmedic

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Maybe Correllon believes so strongly in free will that he refuses to intervene in mortal affairs except in certain very special cases?

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So does Eilistraee, and yet she is described as aiding her people in their everyday life (in her role of mother goddess), but doing so subtly, leaving them full freedom to choose their way.

Besides, the issue is that Corellon is portrayed as doing nothing to aid Eilistraee, not just her followers. But then this is kind in line with what it is said about the relationship between the Dark Maiden and the Seldarine (described as strained).

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Originally posted by Brylock

You mistake me it seems; I don't mean to imply all drow are BORN evil, because this would remove them of true free will and thus make them constructs at best, whom do not worship and thus don't generate that Faithjuice the deities love so much.
I mean to suggest drow are born with a strong biological tendency towards it because of changes Lolth made when they fell; they could have a higher rate of natural sociopathic behavior (which is most often a brain chemistry thing rather then a parenting one), or a deceased ability to process "pleasant" emotions with negative ones (such as hurting others) giving them more stimuli as individuals so they never really WANT to be "good".
Consider the orcs; they universally have anger problems, and everyone accepts that this is because orcish blood carries issues like increase temper problems and a huge adrenaline rush that comes from breaking stuff, meaning they're more likely to be violent rather then peaceful. There's people in real life that have issues with their adrenaline and testosterone levels that make them naturally more aggressive in real life.
I assume Lolth could've "altered" the dark elves in some way when they completely fell under her sway to ensure that it would be harder then ever for them to escape her, which also would nicely explain the biological changes they went through (they had browned skin previously and now it's truly black). Drow still HAVE free will of course, but I like to think in an ultimate act of pettiness and selfishness Lolth had them altered somehow to ensure that they were somewhat less likely to exercise free will in a way that displeases Lolth's twisted ideals.

It's sounds like something Lolth would actually DO and fits in with the drow changing when they finally went underground in addition to being somewhat more internally consistent then "magic underground radiation junk" or "a demon did it".

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Originally posted by Brylock


Of course he's useless. Good deities are ALWAYS useless in fantasy stuff.
If they ever actually DID anything there'd be no reason for heroes to go adventuring.
That's like asking "but why are their dragons in this fantasy setting"?
The answer is almost always something along the likes of "because dragons always show up in fantasy somehow, shut up".

Admittedly the whole "good gods do nothing" thing was less of a problem back BEFORE the gods started being ridiculously active on Faerun proper after the ToT thing, but that's more of an editorial decision then a rule of fantasy in general.

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Originally posted by Eltheron

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Originally posted by Brylock


Of course he's useless. Good deities are ALWAYS useless in fantasy stuff.
If they ever actually DID anything there'd be no reason for heroes to go adventuring.
That's like asking "but why are their dragons in this fantasy setting"?
The answer is almost always something along the likes of "because dragons always show up in fantasy somehow, shut up".

Admittedly the whole "good gods do nothing" thing was less of a problem back BEFORE the gods started being ridiculously active on Faerun proper after the ToT thing, but that's more of an editorial decision then a rule of fantasy in general.

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No offense meant here, but I think this entirely depends on your perspective and how you choose to use deities. Good deities are not inherently useless unless you choose to make them so distant that they might as well not be there. The same applies to good NPCs as well.

Good deities can provide inspiration, aid, portents, dreams, signs, even direct story motivation or prompting. They might intervene more directly with an obvious sign, speech, or even sending aid in the forms of magic, items, clues, or perhaps even a celestial helper or guide.

It entirely depends upon you, the DM, on how you choose to use them or not.

Same thing applies to good NPCs, allies, and the like. You can be overkill and have a good king or noble supply your PCs with gold, magic, items, information, or outright commands, or even combat support with retainers, squads, or armies to follow your orders.

At minimum, good deities are like good NPCs. But I'd argue they're actually more useful than good NPCs, because a good deity can supply (or deny) a PC with moral guidance, spells, or even more direct forms of divine assistance when things seem utterly hopeless.

It all depends on how you play. You may prefer totally uninvolved and distant deities but that's not the way everyone likes to play their game. It's not the game in this case, it's your personal choices on how you play the game.

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Originally posted by Brylock


I meant more in a narrative context, as opposed to a GMing context.
I try to have the deities themselves relatively uninvolved beyond the context of their cults, churches, or occasionally their Chosen.

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Originally posted by Eltheron

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Originally posted by Brylock


I meant more in a narrative context, as opposed to a GMing context.
I try to have the deities themselves relatively uninvolved beyond the context of their cults, churches, or occasionally their Chosen.

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Level of involvement by deities is both a narrative and GMing choice. They're linked.

If I'm reading you correctly, you prefer keeping deity (and perhaps NPC) involvement as background. That's certainly a valid choice. But it's also an entirely valid choice to have deity and NPC involvement as active, unfolding story elements.

My point here isn't to argue, it's just to underscore that deities and their involvement aren't limiting factors inherent to the setting or to D&D. Good deities aren't inherently useless. It's a choice we make, as GMs, for the unfolding narrative.

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Originally posted by LordofBones

I prefer to use Jim Butcher's handling of powerful entities. Greater deities, pantheon heads and the like don't interfere but instead 'nudge' or gently push the appropriate mortals towards their goals.

A drow ciy marches towards an elven outpost, just as a young paladin accidentally stumbles on the crypt of the ancient elven archmage sworn to guard the forest.

A champion of Torm rides to strike down the undead scourge in the Battle of Bones, while at that same time a necromancer randomly picks up a curious book that happens to detail how the undead host of Myrkul turned typical Tormite battle strategy against them.

The reavers of Garagos launch an assault on Sembia, but a young marshal is inspired after watching a stag outmaneuver a pack of wolves.

That kind of thing.

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Originally posted by Brylock


Indeed they are not, as they are fictional and this used however we want.
But from a fictional standpoint, if Lolth does everything and Corellon does nothing or Bhaal or Bane or whoever gets directly involved (I seem to recall n 3e the Chosen of Talona leading group of villains called the Blightlords to inflict the Great Dale with a horrid zombie virus thing and Silvanus not doing anything to aid what would be a significant loss of worshippers to him), I note that very frequently in Realms fiction (and fantasy fiction in general, such as Dragonlance) good deities do little to directly aid their worshippers while evil ones get hugely and blatantly directly involved.

I can't say WHY this happens but for whatever reason it seems to be the overwhelming majority in fantasy fiction....that or the somewhat newer "all the deities are jerks all along" thing that I see now and again.
Good deities in fantasy and the Realms aren't inherently anything except fictional it's true, but for whatever reason they often seem to be used in a much more passive context then evil deities.

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Originally posted by Eltheron

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Originally posted by Brylock


Indeed they are not, as they are fictional and this used however we want.
But from a fictional standpoint, if Lolth does everything and Corellon does nothing or Bhaal or Bane or whoever gets directly involved (I seem to recall n 3e the Chosen of Talona leading group of villains called the Blightlords to inflict the Great Dale with a horrid zombie virus thing and Silvanus not doing anything to aid what would be a significant loss of worshippers to him), I note that very frequently in Realms fiction (and fantasy fiction in general, such as Dragonlance) good deities do little to directly aid their worshippers while evil ones get hugely and blatantly directly involved.

I can't say WHY this happens but for whatever reason it seems to be the overwhelming majority in fantasy fiction....that or the somewhat newer "all the deities are jerks all along" thing that I see now and again.
Good deities in fantasy and the Realms aren't inherently anything except fictional it's true, but for whatever reason they often seem to be used in a much more passive context then evil deities.

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I absolutely agree with you about novels overusing gods, often overshadowing the mortal protagonists.

Realms fiction has always been (unfortunately) particularly bad at bringing in gods to act as direct protagonists. Personally, I really hate it when that happens. I loathed the Time of Troubles for the especially cheesy god activities, and in a lot of ways it's been a staple in Realms fiction ever since.

Mystra's probably been the biggest or most frequently guilty deity in that regard, which is why a lot of people wanted her dead (and why they killed her at the start of 4E). People asked for her back, but WotC tends to show us only extreme pendulum swings. Either she's in everybody's business and showing up for lunch and afternoon delight with Elminster, or she's dead. Selune running a bar as a wench and getting butt-pinches during 2E was drivel.

Lathander's, Helm's, Sune's, and Mielikki's involvement in the Sundering (all separate novels) was also pretty cringeworthy IMO.

People hated Eilistraee's portrayal near her end.

Honestly, I don't quite understand why so many novelists love making deities stupid, cheesy, or massively over-involved. We end up with more cheese than anything else in the overarching Realms metastory.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Ed mentioned something like that in a panel. He wanted the gods to be mysterious and awe-inspiring, but over time they turned "Greek-like" (though ironically Mystra is one of his main characters). Personally, I like when the gods are characters, but it should be done in moderation, otherwise they lose their mystery. I think it can be done. I don't want to see the gods become so distant they practically aren't there, but I also don't want to see them being "in your face". I think the gods help enrich the setting, but I think there is a balance. It makes sense that the gods are involved to a point.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Ed mentioned something like that in a panel. He wanted the gods to be mysterious and awe-inspiring, but over time they turned "Greek-like" (though ironically Mystra is one of his main characters). Personally, I like when the gods are characters, but it should be done in moderation, otherwise they lose their mystery. I think it can be done. I don't want to see the gods become so distant they practically aren't there, but I also don't want to see them being "in your face". I think the gods help enrich the setting, but I think there is a balance. It makes sense that the gods are involved to a point.

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From what he has recently said, Ed occasionaly uses gods, even directly in his game (he said that Elminster and the Seven Sisters have talked face to face to Eilistraee, for example). The key is occasionally, and done so that the appearance of the deity is memorable and needed, enriching the story.

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Originally posted by Brylock

I mean, the simplest explanation is that they aren't particularly good writers and that they try to do better but don't always succeed, obviously.
In any case, I've never paid overmuch attention to Realms fiction anyway, as it's always been one of the less interesting parts of Faerun I thought, not to mention extremely inconsistent with the backround in a general sense.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Having a god appear before a mortal and speaking with them about something serious (a mission, for example), or a priest receiving something from his/her deific patron, be it a vision, manifestion, or what have tou, can add excitement. Sometimes even having a deity pretend to be a mortal can work (if they are doing it for a very specific reason), but I will agree with earlier statements that having a deity appear in your kitchen and talking about the weather or flirting with you, or something mudnane can be cheesy. I like the gods to be involved, and I was actually intrigued by the scene in the Avatar series where they had that council meeting, and I also liked the game between Lolth and Eilistraee. I found that interesting. Having the gods involved makes them more real. But as others have said, it's about how they're presented. When gods are characters, they should still act as -gods-.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

I got the impression it was a bit of both, though I admit I don't know how that would work.

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