| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 00:32:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Galadhion
Being a huge Eilistraee fan, I welcome the idea that she's back in the Realms. I'd like to see E and V cooperating but with a very strained relationship. So many good stories could come out of that.
I'd love to see a story -even a short one- focusing on a cooperation between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
 |
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 21:10:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Galadhion
Being a huge Eilistraee fan, I welcome the idea that she's back in the Realms. I'd like to see E and V cooperating but with a very strained relationship. So many good stories could come out of that.
I think one of the easiest ways to bring them back would be creating a little bit of lore (perhaps a bit retroactive) that does exactly this.
We didn't exactly get to see the alleged fight between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and it was only assumed by mortals that she killed him and took his portfolios to become the masked lady.
It would be much more fun to have something along these lines: Eilistraee was aware of Mask's deception in becoming a sword-avatar that then influenced mortal Cyric (and continued for a while as deity Cyric).
So Eilistraee goes to Corellon with a plan: if she can convince Vhaeraun to join her against Lolth, the both of them will temporarily use their power to cleanse at least a portion of the drow of Malkizind's taint. Long ago, the epic elvish magic that transformed the dark elves into the drow also transformed dark elves who had accepted Malkizid's taint. Eilistraee saw that the time was right to cleanse and free that portion of the drow who really should have a better right to choose.
Corellon agrees, and Eilistraee goes to Vhaeraun. She explains that in order to do this cleansing, which will help any drow that rejects Lolth to serve one of them, or those affected by Malkizid's taint, they need to join forces. Vhaeraun -becomes- the mask, and Eilistraee wears it. She is strongly influenced now by Vhaeraun and his faithful, opening up her mind to things like equality and male energy. She has become, for a time, the Masked Lady.
When the time is right, a holy sacrfice is made (Qilue and the divine energy of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun pours out), and Malkizid's taint is cleansed. Eilistraee then uses one of her little known moon powers to "hide" both herself and Vhaeraun. Like the real moon in certain phases, Eilistraee "goes dark" and cannot be seen for a while. She becomes an avatar-item as well, which Corellon is seen wearing at the end of that novel. Both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have been eclipsed, not dead, and the Sundering allows them to gain back their strength.
Considering that Eilistraee is strongly linked to the moon, why can't she have moments of being eclipsed, or waxing and waning?
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 21:18:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Galadhion
Being a huge Eilistraee fan, I welcome the idea that she's back in the Realms. I'd like to see E and V cooperating but with a very strained relationship. So many good stories could come out of that.
I think one of the easiest ways to bring them back would be creating a little bit of lore (perhaps a bit retroactive) that does exactly this.
We didn't exactly get to see the alleged fight between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and it was only assumed by mortals that she killed him and took his portfolios to become the masked lady.
It would be much more fun to have something along these lines: Eilistraee was aware of Mask's deception in becoming a sword-avatar that then influenced mortal Cyric (and continued for a while as deity Cyric).
So Eilistraee goes to Corellon with a plan: if she can convince Vhaeraun to join her against Lolth, the both of them will temporarily use their power to cleanse at least a portion of the drow of Malkizind's taint. Long ago, the epic elvish magic that transformed the dark elves into the drow also transformed dark elves who had accepted Malkizid's taint. Eilistraee saw that the time was right to cleanse and free that portion of the drow who really should have a better right to choose.
Corellon agrees, and Eilistraee goes to Vhaeraun. She explains that in order to do this cleansing, which will help any drow that rejects Lolth to serve one of them, or those affected by Malkizid's taint, they need to join forces. Vhaeraun -becomes- the mask, and Eilistraee wears it. She is strongly influenced now by Vhaeraun and his faithful, opening up her mind to things like equality and male energy. She has become, for a time, the Masked Lady.
When the time is right, a holy sacrfice is made (Qilue and the divine energy of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun pours out), and Malkizid's taint is cleansed. Eilistraee then uses one of her little known moon powers to "hide" both herself and Vhaeraun. Like the real moon in certain phases, Eilistraee "goes dark" and cannot be seen for a while. She becomes an avatar-item as well, which Corellon is seen wearing at the end of that novel. Both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have been eclipsed, not dead, and the Sundering allows them to gain back their strength.
Considering that Eilistraee is strongly linked to the moon, why can't she have moments of being eclipsed, or waxing and waning?
This basically was what had been planned for the 4e Menzoberranzan supplement (except that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun became archfey, not an avatar-item). Sadly WotC decided to refuse it. It looks like they are happier with ''Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive, but either Ao did it or we don't know how it happened''.
I'd really like to see that material published, but at least they allowed the twins to be officially back now... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Apr 2015 21:19:26 |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 21:51:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
This basically was what had been planned for the 4e Menzoberranzan supplement (except that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun became archfey, not an avatar-item). Sadly WotC decided to refuse it. It looks like they are happier with ''Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive, but either Ao did it or we don't know how it happened''.
I'd really like to see that material published, but at least they allowed the twins to be officially back now...
It's similar in some ways, but I greatly dislike the "they became archfey" concept. I really do not want to see that published. If they had become archfey, they would've been reduced to being mortals for a while. This way, they're still god-avatars, just eclipsed or silent ones.
Divine Avatar-items has been a thing in the past, and this also fits with Corellon wearing that new item at the end of that novel.
Not everyone will like my solution either, but personally I think it's way better than becoming archfey. I mean, not only is it an issue of gods becoming mortal for a while, it also begs the question of what they were doing for those 100 years. Just hanging out in Corellon's court? Someone would've seen them.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 21:55:50
|
| They would have continued the fight against Lolth, being their ''servant'' would have been a player option. But then, as you said,it depends on personal preferences. Either way the core of the solution is a good answer to the problem (surely it is better than the ''Ao did it'' that we have got now, unless Ed has something up his sleeve that he has yet to reveal --he did suggest that details of their return would have been explained in the future--) |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 23 Apr 2015 21:58:53 |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 22:03:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They would have continued the fight against Lolth, being their ''servant'' would have been a player option. But then, as you said,it depends on personal preferences. Either way the core of the solution is a good answer to the problem
I just can't see a god becoming a non-god. An avatar-item, or a sleeping vestige, yes. But becoming mortal, even as archfey, they risk true death and the final end of any "long game" they're trying to play.
Part of the deal with Corellon was (from reading the novel ending) that he personally would take on a bigger role in supporting the cleansed dark/brown elves, so that part was already taken care of in advance.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 22:07:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They would have continued the fight against Lolth, being their ''servant'' would have been a player option. But then, as you said,it depends on personal preferences. Either way the core of the solution is a good answer to the problem
I just can't see a god becoming a non-god. An avatar-item, or a sleeping vestige, yes. But becoming mortal, even as archfey, they risk true death and the final end of any "long game" they're trying to play.
Part of the deal with Corellon was (from reading the novel ending) that he personally would take on a bigger role in supporting the cleansed dark/brown elves, so that part was already taken care of in advance.
Reducing their power to ''cleanse'' the elves wouldn't make much sense as well, since it is far from being Eilistraee's goal. Being Eilistraee and Vhaeraun's servant would have been a drow player option as well, also even the transformed drow would still keep to follow their gods and cause, probably, even with Corellon allowing them into Arvandor. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 22:13:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They would have continued the fight against Lolth, being their ''servant'' would have been a player option. But then, as you said,it depends on personal preferences. Either way the core of the solution is a good answer to the problem
I just can't see a god becoming a non-god. An avatar-item, or a sleeping vestige, yes. But becoming mortal, even as archfey, they risk true death and the final end of any "long game" they're trying to play.
Part of the deal with Corellon was (from reading the novel ending) that he personally would take on a bigger role in supporting the cleansed dark/brown elves, so that part was already taken care of in advance.
Reducing their power to ''cleanse'' the elves wouldn't make much sense as well, since it is far from being Eilistraee's goal. Being Eilistraee and Vhaeraun's servant would have been a drow player option as well, also even the transformed drow would still keep to follow their gods and cause, probably, even with Corellon allowing them into Arvandor.
They're gods, we don't know all of their goals. But very few gods want to become non-gods, or mortals.
If you dislike it and prefer the rejected idea of them as archfey, that's fine - I'm just explaining why I immensely dislike the "temporarily archfey" concept for the two gods.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2015 : 22:21:04
|
I see your point, and I like both your ideas and the archfey one. I don't like the ''we give up our power/whatever to cleanse the taint'' because it has very little to do with E&V's goal (which we know from previous lore and from what they are about, even if they are gods. Eilistraee even has ''establish the drow as rightful non-evil inahbitants of Faerun'' among hers, nothing about curse removals. Vhaeraun would hardly care. Besides, as I said in a post above, the drow themselves would have very little reason to want such a change, and why would the siblings force such a thing on them).
However that seems the only solution that makes sense -and that is not ''Ao did it''- to bring back both (for Eilistraee there's the possibility of survival even without it, though), and if we have to accept that, then I'd welcome your idea, but I'd prefer if they sacrificed power but stayed active somehow (also because they didn't know that Ao would have started this Sundering, so their becoming inactive until the restoration of their lost power would have been a significant risk, since it would have been equal to abandoning the drow for an unknown time -and I don't think that it is something that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun would do-). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Apr 2015 00:51:24 |
|
|
|
Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 00:36:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Galadhion
Being a huge Eilistraee fan, I welcome the idea that she's back in the Realms. I'd like to see E and V cooperating but with a very strained relationship. So many good stories could come out of that.
I think one of the easiest ways to bring them back would be creating a little bit of lore (perhaps a bit retroactive) that does exactly this.
We didn't exactly get to see the alleged fight between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, and it was only assumed by mortals that she killed him and took his portfolios to become the masked lady.
It would be much more fun to have something along these lines: Eilistraee was aware of Mask's deception in becoming a sword-avatar that then influenced mortal Cyric (and continued for a while as deity Cyric).
So Eilistraee goes to Corellon with a plan: if she can convince Vhaeraun to join her against Lolth, the both of them will temporarily use their power to cleanse at least a portion of the drow of Malkizind's taint. Long ago, the epic elvish magic that transformed the dark elves into the drow also transformed dark elves who had accepted Malkizid's taint. Eilistraee saw that the time was right to cleanse and free that portion of the drow who really should have a better right to choose.
Corellon agrees, and Eilistraee goes to Vhaeraun. She explains that in order to do this cleansing, which will help any drow that rejects Lolth to serve one of them, or those affected by Malkizid's taint, they need to join forces. Vhaeraun -becomes- the mask, and Eilistraee wears it. She is strongly influenced now by Vhaeraun and his faithful, opening up her mind to things like equality and male energy. She has become, for a time, the Masked Lady.
When the time is right, a holy sacrfice is made (Qilue and the divine energy of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun pours out), and Malkizid's taint is cleansed. Eilistraee then uses one of her little known moon powers to "hide" both herself and Vhaeraun. Like the real moon in certain phases, Eilistraee "goes dark" and cannot be seen for a while. She becomes an avatar-item as well, which Corellon is seen wearing at the end of that novel. Both Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have been eclipsed, not dead, and the Sundering allows them to gain back their strength.
Considering that Eilistraee is strongly linked to the moon, why can't she have moments of being eclipsed, or waxing and waning?
I like this Eltheron. Perhaps Sehanine was in on the plot as well.
|
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
|
|
|
|
Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 00:41:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
They would have continued the fight against Lolth, being their ''servant'' would have been a player option. But then, as you said,it depends on personal preferences. Either way the core of the solution is a good answer to the problem (surely it is better than the ''Ao did it'' that we have got now, unless Ed has something up his sleeve that he has yet to reveal --he did suggest that details of their return would have been explained in the future--)
Where were they during the whole Demonweave debacle? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
|
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 00:46:14
|
| If WotC had accepted the idea, perhaps they would have been featured. Anyway, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun -as archfey- wouldn't have been powerful enough to directly oppose a greater deity (and it would have been very foolish of them to try to do so in that state), and their main goal is freeing the drow from Lolth (i.e. making them understand and choose a different life, not directly fighting her). It is also possible that some of their few followers actually tried to do something about that, and that we simply didn't get to see it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Apr 2015 00:52:13 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 01:27:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by BenN
1) Now that E & V are back, but separate again, are their followers no longer cooperating? Perhaps they are competing again for those drow who come to the surface realms.
Why? They are drow... 
quote:
2) Based on what happened in the Lady Penitent series, all of Eiistraee's followers were transformed into the original dark elven form; what happens to new drow converts? Will they also be transformed?
3) Following on from 2) and more importantly, will new drow converts be redeemed of Wendonai's taint too, and their souls allowed into Arvandor?
Not again... aaagh, too late. 
The straightforward and obvious answer here would be: LP is nonsensical even on its own and is badly incompatible with the existing lore, thus an attempt to immediately derive anything from it and the rest of Realmslore at the same time usually spawns a plot hole.
Yet...
Take a look at that thread. Summary: even aside of breaking the lore, the only way to as much as pretend that events of LP make more sense than "SUDDENLY! Almost everyone start acting like drunk idiots!" is to constantly juggle agency between mortals, gods and the game board, claiming that whichever of those parts is doubted at the moment was but a puppet of another.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 05:58:16
|
I absolutely agree that the "cleansing" and the high magic ritual in LP is utterly confusing, even nonsensical the way it was originally interpreted. (And even I have been getting Malkizid confused with Wendonai, it's been a while. I've been saying Malkizid and it was Wendonai's taint, derp!).
The general idea was that the high magic ritual by Q'arlynd, dramatically enhanced by the sacrificed deity-energy of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, somehow redeemed the Miyeritari drow (because they were never tainted with Wendonai's blood) and also cleansed those Ilythiir drow (who were all tainted by Wendonai's blood) who took up Eilistraee's dance - and probably Vhaeraun's faithful Ilythiir as well. It did not cleanse the Ilythiir who remained faithful to Lolth.
Things get sticky because Drizzt did not revert into a brown elf. So there was at least one good drow who didn't make Eilistraee's cut. Why?
Originally, it was the Ilythiir who accepted Wendonai's blood taint. Over generations and generations, it's probably a certainty that the Ilythiir and Miyeritari drow interbred. Most of the Miyeritari had been wiped out during the wars, and both were victim to the high magic spell that drove the Ilythiir and remaining Miyeritari underground and to become inky-black. So it would be somewhat rare to have a pure Miyeritari drow.
Because Drizzt didn't become brown, people have assumed that he still has the blood taint.
For the sacrifice of Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to make much sense, I think it had to clear every single drow, good and evil, Lolth worshiper or not, of Wendonai's blood taint. Originally, the blood taint was limited to one clan of the Ilythiir. But after generations and generations, it "grew" as the population of drow grew and interbred. I think MOST drow were tainted with Wendonai's blood, and it was so pervasive that it had to be one of Eilistraee's goals to purge it entirely from all the drow.
So I think Drizzt and every other drow has been cleansed of Wendonai's dispersing blood taint. That's big, and it's the kind of thing gods think about over thousands of years.
But why didn't Drizzt transform back to a brown elf? Because he wasn't pure Miyeritari (extremely rare) and he wasn't personally a worshiper of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun. It may seem like Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's (temporary) sacrifice didn't do a whole lot because on the surface it only seemed to affect their own worshipers and the very few pure Miyeritari drow.
If it cleansed every single drow on the planet of Wendonai's taint, though, that's a pretty big something. It allows the drow (99% of whom were probably tainted) to make free-will choices without having any lingering demon influence possibly influencing their choices in worship or even their thoughts and actions on some level.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 10:38:54
|
If the ritual had purged Wendonai's taint from all drow, then yes it would have made some sense. The thing is that removing the taint is a secondary goal for Eilistraee*. The drow have free choice, and while the demon taint could somewhat influence them, we have been shown that it is Lolth's brainwashing them that has brought them into the current state. If Wendonai's taint suddenly disappeared from all drow, they surely wouldn't change their lifestyle, they would still need someone to make them *know* that an alternative exist, and help them make such choice. That's why IMO it wouldn't have made sense for Eilistraee to sacrifice/go into slumber and leave the drow alone with only Lolth for an unknown period of time (since she couldn't have known about the Sundering at the time) just for the taint -even if that had removed it from all the drow (and it would have been very out of character and nonsensical to do it just for her followers, they had already made their choice, they had already chosen to redeem themselves, they didn't -and don't- really need the ''taint'' removed. Partial redemption of the drow has nothing to do with Eilistraee). The drow needed (and need) her in another, more important way before that, and she knew/knows it.
That's why this matter wasn't the urgent one, because at the end of the day it wouldn't have led to redemption and because redemption is possible even without it, through choice. Besides, if it were that urgent, surely Eilistraee&Vhaeraun wouldn't have waited millennia to do something about it...
The transformation in brown elf, however, goes against what the Dark Dancer is, in many ways. I've already commented about that on this thread, so I'll just paste here what I said before.
quote:
This was one of the worst parts of that series IMO, as it diminished Eilistraee and what she stands for. Just look at any previous lore on her, the Dark Dancer and her followers have never fought to get some curse removed, the redemption and freedom that she wishes for the drow is in the CHOICE, not in changing skin color or in getting rid of some random magic.
Her drow have already made this choice (same for whoever will now choose to follow her), they are already redeemed because of that and because of their actions. The followers of the goddess don't want to be changed, neither Eilistraee has ever fought for that (to them, drow is what they are, they are born like it, why should they change their identity -- especially since it doesn't force them to choose evil or something like that--?), they strive so that their people can forge their place in the world, in harmony with all other races and accepted for what they are, creating a future of life together.
After millennia, ''drow'' is no longer a curse, but an identity, Eilistraee can't simply impose such a change on those who join her and she -valuing acceptance and freedom of expression so much- would never do that in first place.
Also surely Eilistraee's followers wouldn't want to give up their goddess, especially not for something that is not needed (the taint removal), or for something that at the end of the day is a luxury and likely not even wanted (the transformation). I don't think that Vhaerunites would care about those things either.
However, as I said, now that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are back, if we really want to have details on their return, then what you proposed seems to be one of the few possible explanations, and I -personally- would welcome it (the alternative is Eilistraee-Masked Lady's survival to Halisstra's attempt to kill her, because of reasons discussed before in this thread -while perhaps preserving Vhaeraun as well, out of compassion/sibling love/what you have-, which I would welcome as well. And ofc there's ''Ao did it'', but that kinda sucks as an explanation).
*(on a side note, IIRC the taint wasn't accepted, Lolth had Wendonai impregnate some matron mothers after the Descent, and the taint spread through interbreeding).
|
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Apr 2015 14:27:05 |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 15:41:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
If the ritual had purged Wendonai's taint from all drow, then yes it would have made some sense. The thing is that removing the taint is a secondary goal for Eilistraee*. The drow have free choice, and while the demon taint could somewhat influence them, we have been shown that it is Lolth's brainwashing them that has brought them into the current state. If Wendonai's taint suddenly disappeared from all drow, they surely wouldn't change their lifestyle, they would still need someone to make them *know* that an alternative exist, and help them make such choice. That's why IMO it wouldn't have made sense for Eilistraee to sacrifice/go into slumber and leave the drow alone with only Lolth for an unknown period of time (since she couldn't have known about the Sundering at the time) just for the taint -even if that had removed it from all the drow (and it would have been very out of character and nonsensical to do it just for her followers, they had already made their choice, they had already chosen to redeem themselves, they didn't -and don't- really need the ''taint'' removed. Partial redemption of the drow has nothing to do with Eilistraee). The drow needed (and need) her in another, more important way before that, and she knew/knows it.
That's why this matter wasn't the urgent one, because at the end of the day it wouldn't have led to redemption and because redemption is possible even without it, through choice. Besides, if it were that urgent, surely Eilistraee&Vhaeraun wouldn't have waited millennia to do something about it...
Eilistraee didn't leave them alone, though. She got Corellon to step up, got him to change his mind - which had been set against all drow for tens of thousands of years.
Looking at this from the mortal side of things is part of the problem, I think. The LP books look at it from the mortal side, and don't really get into Eilistraee's exact motivations. All we see is the reasoning and interpretations of her mortal worshipers.
Ultimately, we don't know why she and Vhaeraun considered it an urgent matter to cleanse the drow of the Wendonai blood taint. But I think if we ever want to come up with better reasoning from the gods-side of things, we have to look at what is important to them and not necessarily what's important to mortals.
Perhaps the blood taint didn't influence choice, perhaps it had nothing to do with redemption. Perhaps all of this had more to do with Corellon, and perhaps it had more to do with the souls of the drow. For tens of thousands of years, Corellon completely turned away from the drow. With the cleansing, Eilistraee got him to step back up.
One thing about elves is that they dislike impurity. They see half elves as unworthy to be part of royal lines. They even have strong beliefs about different tribes: gold elves are too arrogant (and even perhaps a step away from "true fey") such that they aren't fit to rule Evermeet despite being full elves. Race and subrace are a big deal to the elves. One of Lolth's primary ongoing tactics has been to corrupt elves (particularly drow) into impurity by breeding with demons and devils. What if this lack of purity is what was making the Seldarine and Corellon in particular turn completely away from the drow?
With that in mind, getting rid of a demonic blood taint that is bound to the souls of all drow somehow seems more important for Eilistraee, right? All of this may have had nothing to do with redemption or transforming the Miyeritari back into brown elves. Eilistraee could offer a few drow redemption, but if the entire rest of the Seldarine, including Corellon, wouldn't even consider redeeming a good drow because of the widespread demonic taint, it was necessary to remove it.
Mortals interpret things based on what they see and feel. The redemption was always there, offered by Eilistraee personally to her worshipers just for their worship. But she may have wanted much more than that - she may have wanted her father to stop seeing the race as unworthy because of their demonic taint.
The elves call themselves "the People" and there's a strong hint there that every other race (even the good ones) aren't people. Humans can be allies, but they're not -really- people. There's a sense that racial purity is important, and so interbreeding with demons and devils becomes not just corruption but racial anaethma. Lolth getting the Ilythiiri to mate with Wendonai and other demons was more vile than the mass murder during the Crown Wars - she's destroying their purity, the very essence of the elves.
What if dhaerrow (drow) doesn't just mean traitor, what if it means "race traitor"?
quote:
The transformation in brown elf, however, goes against what the Dark Dancer is, in many ways. I've already commented about that on this thread, so I'll just paste here what I said before.
The transformation may have never been an intended thing, but a side effect of the high magic curse finally unravelling.
quote:
Also surely Eilistraee's followers wouldn't want to give up their goddess, especially not for something that is not needed (the taint removal), or for something that at the end of the day is a luxury and likely not even wanted (the transformation). I don't think that Vhaerunites would care about those things either.
Again, we've only seen things from the mortal interpretation side. The removal of the blood taint may not have been necessary in terms of redeeming drow as far as Eilistraee was concerned, but it might have been essential for the Seldarine to start seeing the drow in a different light. (And consider, just for a second, how a mortal drow might see Corellon in that moment - for the first time in millennia, he's willing to look at all the drow himself and say, "you might be worthy of Arvandor" now that they've been cleansed. The mortal might mistakenly interpret this as "redemption" even though they had long ago been redeemed individually by Eilistraee).
As far as Vhaeraun, he wouldn't necessarily care about what the Seldarine think or do, BUT he might care a great deal about striking a major blow against Lolth and at the same time getting his sister to start thinking of male drow as equal to females.
When we think of the motivations of the gods, we have to think about things that involve more than just mortal, individual concerns like redemption (which was always there) or outward appearances (brown vs. inky black skin). We have to think about their ability to change other gods' beliefs and perceptions, even long-held racial or sexist philosophies (e.g. "all drow are corrupt and unworthy" by the Seldarine, or "females are superior" by even good goddesses like Eilistraee).
quote:
*(on a side note, IIRC the taint wasn't accepted, Lolth had Wendonai impregnate some matron mothers after the Descent, and the taint spread through interbreeding).
Seems to me that interbreeding with a demon is a form of "accepting" the blood taint. Wendonai was working on the Illithiir quite a long time before the Descent, so I'd doubt that the interbreeding only happened afterwards. I'm not sure if it changes much either way?
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 24 Apr 2015 17:52:20 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 19:09:22
|
But Eilistraee did leave the drow alone in that timeframe between her hiding and reappering -and I don't mean only her followers, but the rest-. In fact, Corellon didn't do anything that even remotely resembles what Eilistraee does for the drow, he didn't actively try to lead them to another life, he just kept being his distant self.
Personally I don't like the idea that Eilistraee tried to ''purify'' the drow so that they would have looked better in the eyes of the Seldarine. I have some problems with that.
1)Only her followers have been purified, and her followers were already free and had their afterlife secured, with Eilistraee. The rest of the drow (the vast majority) would still be in the same conditions. So we basically are back to the starting point. Does that mean that everytime Eilistraee manages to get some followers, she has to get rid of their taint, go into slumber for a very long time, leave Lolth free to spread her influence once again, just so that the Seldarine might like them?
2)Eilistraee wants acceptance and tolerance among all people, -to quote Demihuman Deities- she is ''forging her own path, one that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and freedom of expression of all that entails''. She wants the drow to be accepted for their choices and for who they are -even by the Seldarine-, not because some magic has been removed. This is what I mean when I say that this stuff diminishes her character and has little to do with her (and IMO the race change was quite too big to be a side effect). I get that she might want the Seldarine to cooperate (even if their relationship is described as ''strained''), but giving so much just for that (yes, an unknown -to her- time of absence, with Lolth free to spin her web on the drow, is a lot) would shift the focus of her battle to that ''taint'' and make Eilistraee look a bit too much like Jesus' trying to remove the original sin from humanity (except that she did that only with a narrow minority of the drow). I also think that for Eilistraee redeeming her people should come before getting her father to like them, so pausing for an indefinite time isn't something she would do IMO.
As I said, I like your solution, but any solution to this would only do so much, since the novels really missed the mark on what Eilistraee stands for.
quote:
Seems to me that interbreeding with a demon is a form of "accepting" the blood taint. Wendonai was working on the Illithiir quite a long time before the Descent, so I'd doubt that the interbreeding only happened afterwards. I'm not sure if it changes much either way?
The matrons, priests and so on (important people who could deal with outsiders) accepted the taint. I very much doubt that your random farmer (the majority of the drow) did, just like the vast majority of the people of Aryvandaar didn't accept Malkizid's and other outsiders' (which were working with their rulers/priests/mages and so on) ''taint''. By interbreeding I didn't mean with the demon, but with ''tainted'' people (i.e. the taint spreads like a genetic trait). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 Apr 2015 19:27:12 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2383 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 19:36:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Eilistraee didn't leave them alone, though. She got Corellon to step up, got him to change his mind - which had been set against all drow for tens of thousands of years.
Which is completely pointless.
quote:
One thing about elves is that they dislike impurity.
And this jackassery comes from mortal Elves, seeing how Sehanine adopted a fey'ri - well, quarter-fiend anyway.
And thus has little to do with the problems Eilistraee had to deal with.
quote:
They see half elves as unworthy to be part of royal lines. They even have strong beliefs about different tribes
[...]
What if dhaerrow (drow) doesn't just mean traitor, what if it means "race traitor"?
You're hitching the donkey before the cart.
The Elves are not Protestants.
Back then, they were lords of the world and no one else mattered, as simple as this. Once they kicked the dragons from the throne.
They began hiding behind the crowd and lose themselves in collective narcissism only after Crown Wars reduced them to weakened, bitter, scared and/or decadent relics, presumably to cope with this result.
At least, this fits well with the observed trends: the elves most prone to "Elf vs. Elf" conflicts are the ones who succeed in deluding themselves about their importance in the world, while those least blinded are most prone to look at all this nonsense, sigh and go live among the humans.
As to the rest...  I linked that thread to point at the arguments already typed, path already traversed, and gutter into which many threads already have sunk. Is it obviously a good idea to copy it all over here and derail yet another thread into the same loopy loops? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 21:20:35
|
Hey, like I said, I'm in full agreement that LP events were bizarre and utterly strange.
It's just an idea, people can take it or leave it. Doesn't much matter to me, because what I really think is that they should've just done a complete reboot to 1E. That's what I'm really waiting for before I lay out another dime.
In the meantime, this is what they've left us and it's occasionally interesting to try and make some kind of sense out of it.
At the end of the day, it's just a game.
|
"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2015 : 22:38:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Doesn't much matter to me, because what I really think is that they should've just done a complete reboot to 1E. That's what I'm really waiting for before I lay out another dime.
In the meantime, this is what they've left us and it's occasionally interesting to try and make some kind of sense out of it.
I have given up on the past metastory of the Realms, I would like a reboot too, but all I really care now is that what was lost along the edtions is restored and that they now focus on making an awesome setting.
I would be happy (and impressed) if Ed and the others managed to fix all this weirdness and ooc-ness of LP, but now that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive, I can live with all of that being simply swept under the rug and the focus shifting on what the two of them are doing in the present era. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Nai_Calus
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 12:52:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Eilistraee didn't leave them alone, though. She got Corellon to step up, got him to change his mind - which had been set against all drow for tens of thousands of years.
It's pretty well established that Corellon doesn't hate all drow everwhere actually.
We'll leave out drow being in Arvandor according to Planescape since while FR is part of that 2E metacontinuity it's not a FR source, but Demihuman Deities notes that Corellon has drow clergy.
If he's actually set against all drow everywhere period, that's the sort of thing that generally gets you a proper smiting, if not by the god themselves then by the rest of the clergy. Unless you can demonstrate to the other clergy that you have been accepted. Say, by casting clerical spells that are obviously derived from a certain elf god. (I've had such wonderful fun with drow Corellite clerics. Nobody expects to run into a drow guy running around the surface in broad daylight wearing shiny chainmail, a sky blue cloak, and a nice big holy symbol of a silver crescent moon hanging around his neck. Oh, your god hates me, sure, sorry honey, it's just you. But Corellon loves all of his children so I'm sure he'll forgive you for that assumption.)
For that matter, Queen Amlaruil, with her mystical link to the Seldarine, was implied in Evermeet to be queen of all elves, including drow.
Amlaruil also had an Eilistraeean visit Evermeet at one point. And Amlaruil isn't known for her open-mindedness, given her reactions to Arilyn, so it's unlikely that if Corellon and the entire Seldarine is utterly against drow that she wouldn't be aware of this and fully enforcing it, rather than meeting with drow in secret.
-----
As to the continuity issues and inexplicable plotlines and characterizations in Lady Penitent... Well, none of that appears before the trilogy, and none of it is mentioned again. The entire thing is a mess of poor characterizations of both gods and mortals, and makes absolutely no sense. It's best IMO to simply pretend none of that ever happened.
If one must, handwave the Wendonai mess as someone being wrong, and presume that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee were working together, given that Vhaeraun is noted in Demihuman Deities as being willing to consider working with the other drow powers against Lolth.
Corellon, of course, is only too willing to help his precious little snowflake, and maybe he feels remorse for badly handling Vhaeraun and hopes that some time with his sister and involved in plans will soften his son's stances a bit.
There's really no excuse for what happens with Selvetarm and it's one of the biggest wastes of potential period.
So the siblings work together, to attempt to strike a blow against their mother and give Corellon an excuse to get involved without running into divine politics of not 'properly' having an interest. So some drow are surface elves again, Lolth grumps but, hey, god of surface elves, deal w/it, he can actually start being involved now. He's not upset because he knows his kids aren't actually dead, and Lashrael and Felathael are either uninformed or spreading the made-up story to hide things at the end talking to Cavatina.
But really. V even trying to kill E, Cavatina failing forever at pretty much the entirety of her religion, a disgruntled former Vhaeraunite being the only person with sense in the entire trilogy, resurrections left and right despite it not even making sense to do it that much in the most gonzo of home campaigns with ludicrously wealthy PCs... The entire thing is bizarre and out of character and counter to the lore established beforehand. I mean, the books don't even get which half of the face the masks Vhaeraunites only rarely actually wear cover right. Upper half. The holy symbol is depicted that way. Vhaeraun is depicted that way. The one illustration of a Vhaeraunite priest wearing a mask running around, from Demihuman Deities, is wearing a mask that, yep, upper half. When a basic detail like THAT is wrong... *facepalm* Literally ANY checking of anything would have revealed that.
So TBH, the best way to deal with reconciling LP... Is not to.
If it has to exist, though, I maintain V never died. :P Paper mache for the corpse, as the author of my favorite FR fanfic once joked about here. :P
At any rate, I'm glad E and V are back. Moreso Vhaeraun. I'm fond of him and his issues.
I want Selvetarm back too. I think I'm the only one, however. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 13:07:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Nai_Calus
At any rate, I'm glad E and V are back. Moreso Vhaeraun. I'm fond of him and his issues.
I want Selvetarm back too. I think I'm the only one, however.
No, you are not the only one. I want Selvetarm back too, and my ideal situation is Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and his son (who decided to give the Spider ''Queen'' the middle finger) working together against Lolth (to an extent, but at least not being flat out enemies).
I agree on the events in LP not really making sense, especially within Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's character, and there are substantial chances for both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun to not have died at all. But both these facts seem to be a given now, and have been discussed in this and many other threads, especially as of recent. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 May 2015 13:10:01 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 13:43:53
|
Whether they retcon, explain, or entirely ignore the events in LP, at this point, I will just be happy to see V and E back.
To be fair, I thought LP was a good story in itself (at least until the end), and I was fond of several of the characters. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 15:44:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[I thought LP was a good story in itself (at least until the end), and I was fond of several of the characters.
++ Exactly my sentiments. |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 16:09:31
|
I think that I would have enjoyed the books too, if the characters were not Eilistraee, Vhaeraun & co (except the ending, that would have been bad even in a white room context, as it feels truly cheap IMHO). However, as things stand, those books could be the best novels ever written, they would still diminish great deities and the key events in the story still wouldn't respect their goals/personalities, at all.
However, that doesn't really matter anymore now that Eilistraee&Vhaeraun are back, as long as those inconsistencies don't get rubbed in our face (even if it would be awesome to see those wallbangers fixed and what happened to the twins after the ending explained -- i.e. did they actually work together? Did they survive as speculated...)
|
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 14 May 2015 16:11:31 |
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 17:25:57
|
| I never found Selvetarm very interesting. It always struck me as weird that Lolth ' s bodyguard was a deity. His followers weren't covered in any depth. I could see him becoming more interesting if he effectively became an evil version of helm. His priesthood just needs a little more definition. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 14 May 2015 17:27:40 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2015 : 22:53:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I think that I would have enjoyed the books too, if the characters were not Eilistraee, Vhaeraun & co (except the ending, that would have been bad even in a white room context, as it feels truly cheap IMHO). However, as things stand, those books could be the best novels ever written, they would still diminish great deities and the key events in the story still wouldn't respect their goals/personalities, at all.
However, that doesn't really matter anymore now that Eilistraee&Vhaeraun are back, as long as those inconsistencies don't get rubbed in our face (even if it would be awesome to see those wallbangers fixed and what happened to the twins after the ending explained -- i.e. did they actually work together? Did they survive as speculated...)
I actually liked that the gods were characters, even if the characterization was off |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2015 : 02:38:31
|
@CD
I meant other hypothetical gods, just not Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, because their characterization was off on very important points of their personalities/goals.
@Tarlyn
IMO Selvetarm has the potential to be an interesting character, because of his position in the Vhaeraun-Eilistraee-Lolth ''family'' and because of the angle of his possibly being torn between the demon and his original self, while trying to become independent of Lolth, which they could have explored (especially considering his original relation with Eilistraee). Instead the whole thing boiled down to ''he destroyes a demon, it taints him an he is now forever corrupted and Lolth's consort''. Such an event should change him, sure, but not like that.
Selvetarm getting rid of Lolth's influence and becoming more like a LE vigilante, proposing an alternative kind of drow society, could also be interesting. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 15 May 2015 02:40:40 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 18:52:58
|
| Updated the OP with new info from Ed. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2015 : 18:54:41
|
| I just saw that post from THO myself. Very interesting! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive in 5e FR
