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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4207 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  20:22:05  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
See now I took the citation of Moander destroying the creator races as only a belief.

quote:
The followers of Moander believed that their god set foot here in order to bring the power of the Creator Races to an end


So I treated it as a myth and therefore only partially based on fact. Further to that I localised it to the Netheril Basin only (since I had no other evidence to support Moander being active outside of the basin before the time of Netheril). Basically I made Moander a by-product of the Sarrukh's attempt to kill the phaerimm which then hastens the end of the Sarrukh.


Of course that's just my take on it.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  20:38:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dunno, Moander seems not very serpentine. And pretty much everything made by Sarrukh seems to be at least a bit related to snakes. He seems more connected to Far Realm entities, specificaly Beholders. He/she/it seems to love transforming them into Death Tyrants, and Moanders Deepspawn, are somewhat Beholder-like, with some octopi-like traits. And I think that it was suggested that Moander was either created by the first war of Selune and Shar, or came into the Realms interested by it.
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
4207 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  21:09:07  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Moander being created is not really enough for a being like Moander to exist.

I pictured Moander rising from the rot and decay that the Sarrukh caused when they attempted to drown the phaerimm.

The Sarrukh being reptilian in nature appear to have liked dwelling in tropical jungle environments. The Anauroch/Netheril Basin was probably very forested and was definitely very fertile.

The Narrow Sea ran north to south bordering the Greypeaks and the Sarrukh used land shaping magic to alter the course of the sea and drown the phaerimm in the Underdark beneath.

Following that event the Narrow Sea ran east to west (or was it west to east I can never remember). Either way one can assume the event was quite sudden and the sea disappeared in a matter of moments otherwise it would never have succeeded in drowning the phaerimm.

So the forested land the sea now covers is submerged in water creating a massive rotting soup. The fish and life in the area that the Narrow Sea once occupied are left lying all over the land east of the Greypeaks. Couple that with the probably change in climate of the basin (large bodies of water can have quite a profound effect on winds which can alter the environment (I believe Africa is an example of areas scoured by wind into desert and then other areas adjacent to it are tropical rainforests because the moisture is trapped by mountains).

Netheril occupied the same area some 10s of millennia later and it was definitely not forested (and the northern areas were almost arctic tundra) so I pictured the vast forests dying and rotting and decaying.

From out of the new Narrow Sea crawls this oozing rotting monstrousity (land shaping magics merging with the rotting matter to create a kind of living spell primordial) kind of like that big nasty monster in the animated cartoon Ferngully.

He rampages across the basin and finishes off the Sarrukh and runs out of steam somewhere in the mountains known as Moander's Footsteps where he cocoons himself and lies undiscovered for ages until people from Netheril find him again.

Of course none of this makes him a god at this point, just an unstoppable juggernaut of rot and decay. The ascent to godhood I pinned during/after the fall of Netheril when the Netherese spread and took their beliefs with them. Thereby gaining enough worshippers to make Moander a god, and possibly because silly Tyche touched the rotting flower that was all that remained of the previous Moander and he consumed enough of her to become a god himself - although who knows really.

But again I picture Moander appearing (during the fall of Isstosseffifil), dying off when there is nothing left to rot (he runs out of food), forming some kind of cocoon where he can survive indefinitely, until someone stumbles across him and wakes him up (although he "evolves" constantly so his new form is different).


Anyway that's my take on it and I'm working on a Netheril rewrite for Issue 7 of my fan mag which includes this story.

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Seethyr
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USA
486 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  21:12:29  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know if I'm just a sucker for happy endings or what, but if Moander comes back and absorbs Finder or some such, I hope it has an effect on him that leads to a more neutral alignment or even good. This way, the whole Finder storyline doesn't become a waste of time and there is a lasting positive affect on the realms rather than just a colossal reset button.

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2989 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  21:16:23  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finder is included in the sample list of FR deities in the PHB. They are active in the current era (they can be chosen for PCs in the official organized play), so I highly doubt that the eventual Moander's return will happen at Finder's expense.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  23:36:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

the threat of his return than
Threat to whom? The the dozen other evil deities who'd groan at seeing the waiting line toward their next turn to try to destroy/conquer the world get even longer (while glaring even more at their colleagues who sold their turns to Shar in exchange for her desert during lunch at Cynosure.)?



Well, as Moander is credited with orchestrating the fall of the Creator Races, this may mean s/he is indirectly, or directly responcible for all connected with this Fall. Like Asgoroth's summoning, the second Primordial/God war, the split between Abeir and Toril, and all of the resulting carnage. Moander's methods of recruitment, controling and keeping his/it's/hers worshippers loyal was also horryfying. Guy/Gal was a pretty compentent villian, while active, and pretty disturbing when you read about him/her/it in detail. There was a reason why Moander was known as "The Great Dread God".



Hmmmm, in that respect, it seems like Moander COULD be responsible for a lot of "splits". By that, I mean that from Asgorath (Asgoroth) came Bahamut and Tiamat. We're also seeing Tymora and Beshaba.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2014 :  23:54:45  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like the idea that someone put forth that Moander in its current incarnation is a corrupted nature being. I'm picturing something like an Archfey that was infected by energy from the Far Realm. He very well could have been one of the original Yuir deities.... possibly even the mate of Relkath of the Infinite Branches. In fact, perhaps the Talontar Blightlords were actually seeking some "core" of Moander that resided near Dun-Tharos (whether to serve Talona, or whether unwittingly serving Moander can be spun different ways).

In fact, one of the things that Dazzlerdal and I had supposed last year when discussing the lands of the Unapproachable East was the idea that large portions of the population were decimated whenever night twists infested the area. This is of course entirely non-canon, but it would be a good way to have introduced Moander into the environment (i.e. corrupting plant beings).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  00:12:59  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The idea that Moander is a corrupted nature deity is a nifty one... But given his presence on at least one other world (the saurial homeworld), and the fact that the Realms has regular nature deities, I would assume that Moander's fall happened on some other world, and that he later found his way into the Realms.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  00:44:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, among my ideas for Moander's origin, and the Dark God/Tharizdun, I had an in-game/in-universe theory/story that he/she/it was a Far Realm Entity that ate/absorbed a Baernaloth and Archfey. The absorption of the Baernaloth, gave Moander his/her/it's fixation with corruption and disease, and combined with the nature aspect from the Archfey, resulted in his/her/it's connection with decay and entropy. Of this story was meant to be disputable and unsure even in-universe....

Edited by - Baltas on 17 Sep 2014 00:50:15
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  01:20:09  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Moander was part of the Netherese pantheon; Silvanus and Mielikki weren't. But it was already a god of corruption and rot, and Netherese rangers didn't venerate Moander, so if he was a corrupted nature power it must have happened before this.

Nothing saying Silvanus and/or Mielikki weren't present in Faerun during or prior to the time of Netheril, but according to the Netheril box they weren't part of that pantheon.

Not arguing against it... I kinda like the idea of Moander as a twisted nature power. Just wondering where and when it would have happened, and who the nature power might have been. Perhaps it was only a piece of that god which became Moander, and the original deity still exists in some form?

On the question of origin, I kinda like Moander being the result of Aryvandaaran high magic. Like maybe it was created/split/broken during the Dark Disaster in Miyeritar. And the Dark Disaster almost has to have something to do with Araumycos. Soooo maybe Moander and Araumycos were once once, and when they split Moander got the higher "brain" functions and became evil; Araumycos is what remains, and it has only the "base" mental functions... there's clearly some kind of mental function (it has nearly infinite psionic power points iirc) but there's no known means for a mortal to communicate effectively with it.

Dunno, maybe just a crazy thought.

Edit: the 75 DR entry in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, regarding the imprisonment of the "creeping evil" at Tsornyl, says "This weakened the Darkbringer#146;s presence in Toril" ...which implies that Moander was already a multisphere god at that point. He still could have originated in Faerun, but whether or not that was the intent for him... dunno.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 17 Sep 2014 01:35:04
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sleyvas
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USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  01:56:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The idea that Moander is a corrupted nature deity is a nifty one... But given his presence on at least one other world (the saurial homeworld), and the fact that the Realms has regular nature deities, I would assume that Moander's fall happened on some other world, and that he later found his way into the Realms.



I'd be okay with that too. He could have found his way into the "Spirit Realms" as we were calling the area of the Unapproachable East long ago. If he were responsible for changing a bunch of plant beings into night twists (i.e. corrupting their nature), it would fit well with the storyline we had developed. Chupoclops could have been feeding on the spirits of the fallen as we had theorized.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  02:00:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh

Moander was part of the Netherese pantheon; Silvanus and Mielikki weren't. But it was already a god of corruption and rot, and Netherese rangers didn't venerate Moander, so if he was a corrupted nature power it must have happened before this.

Nothing saying Silvanus and/or Mielikki weren't present in Faerun during or prior to the time of Netheril, but according to the Netheril box they weren't part of that pantheon.

Not arguing against it... I kinda like the idea of Moander as a twisted nature power. Just wondering where and when it would have happened, and who the nature power might have been. Perhaps it was only a piece of that god which became Moander, and the original deity still exists in some form?

On the question of origin, I kinda like Moander being the result of Aryvandaaran high magic. Like maybe it was created/split/broken during the Dark Disaster in Miyeritar. And the Dark Disaster almost has to have something to do with Araumycos. Soooo maybe Moander and Araumycos were once once, and when they split Moander got the higher "brain" functions and became evil; Araumycos is what remains, and it has only the "base" mental functions... there's clearly some kind of mental function (it has nearly infinite psionic power points iirc) but there's no known means for a mortal to communicate effectively with it.

Dunno, maybe just a crazy thought.

Edit: the 75 DR entry in Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves, regarding the imprisonment of the "creeping evil" at Tsornyl, says "This weakened the Darkbringer#146;s presence in Toril" ...which implies that Moander was already a multisphere god at that point. He still could have originated in Faerun, but whether or not that was the intent for him... dunno.



I'm liking the idea that Wooly put forth that maybe he originated in the world of the Saurials.... which possibly was Abeir (I know that one is kind of controversial, but personally, I don't have a problem with the Saurials being from Abeir)? As much as I like the idea of him being a corrupted archfey, having it be a Primordial nature being that was somehow corrupted by the far realm works just as well.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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see
Learned Scribe

191 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  03:22:53  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by see

As a god of rotting and decay, it would be perfectly natural for Moander to be locked in an eternal cycle of dying only to arise again from his own corpse.



Actually, it would be more natural for him to die and for something else to arise from his corpse -- under natural circumstances, dead things don't get back up and back in motion after a while.


What kind of entity would arise from the rot and decay of a divine corpse? Why, an entity of rot and decay, with divine power because it's arising from a divine source. And what would happen when that divine entity died? It would leave a divine corpse suffused with the energies of rot and decay. And what kind of entity would arise from the rot and decay of a divine corpse?

Which is to say, the corpse never gets back up and back in motion, but you still wind up with a chain of Moanders, each born feeding on the corpse of the previous Moander, each sharing the same essential nature while also being a new god.

And you could also potentially get a Moander from the corpse of any god, if the corpse were infected with the appropriate rot and decay. So even if the chain of Moanders were broken by the metaphysical equivalent of cremation of the divine corpse, any remaining "spores" of Moander would just have to find some other fallen god to infect and feed on . . .
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore

USA
1824 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  03:47:20  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by see

And you could also potentially get a Moander from the corpse of any god


This is useful for my earlier idea of his return in 5e being a quiet simultaneous infection of many worlds.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  04:15:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not as keen on the idea of a Far Realm connection, for Moander... Partially because he's too close to the natural world for the Far Realm, and partially because I think D&D had enough Cthulhu elements without the introduction of the Far Realm.

I'm also not keen on the idea of him springing up from a dead god, either. It comes across, to me, as him being either a variant undead or a cheap reincarnation.

I don't have the full spin yet, but I'm thinking of an origin similar to that of the Wyrm's fall, in Werewolf: The Apocalypse. For those unfamiliar with that RPG, part of the premise is that once upon a time, there were three equally balanced forces acting upon Gaia (Earth). There was the Wyld, which was pure, untamed nature. There was the Weaver, which was order. And then there was the Wyrm, which kept the two balanced. Then, one day, the Weaver looked out across everything that it had woven, and saw that there was no purpose to it. So the Weaver went crazy, and started weaving like mad, imposing order on everything. The Wyrm was trying frantically to keep the balance, but it was just too much for it... The Wyrm was weakened by all this, and got caught up in the Weaver's webs. This turned the Wyrm from balance to corruption and destruction; the Wyrm and its forces are the main baddies in the Werewolf RPG.

So, with that as inspiration...

Perhaps Moander was once like Chauntea. And then something happened, on the world of his origin.

Perhaps a great nature disaster occurred, like a huge meteor, causing a nuclear winter and destroying most of the natural life on his world. With heavy clouds shrouding the sun and stars, and a poisoned atmosphere, a once-verdant land was reduced to rot and ruin, and the few survivors had to embrace the molds and fungi that replaced their farms and forests. In time, the nature of their worship changed, and Moander changed along with it...

Or the same thing happened, but as a result of a titanic war. It could have been a magical version of a nuclear exchange, with pretty much similar end results. It could have been some sort of war between rival deities, too, like an all-out divine throwdown between Lathander and Shar, with the world being heavily damaged as either collateral damage or a diversionary tactic.

Or maybe even a Dying Earth scenario, where the world is so old and used up that little flourishes, other than the rot of years gone by...

It's certainly a biased opinion, but I like any of those ideas a lot more than a convenient, hand-waving Far Realm origin.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Sep 2014 04:32:39
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2014 :  07:32:09  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Very interesting comparison with the Wyrm Wooly! But in Werewolf: The Apocalypse, there is already a visible element of Lovecraft-like Misotheism, with the most powerful 'deities'(Triat and Gaia), beign either alien, cruell and/or to ruthless. Even Gaia, is pretty flawed, as her and Changing Breeds actions, like the culing, most probably caused humanity to turn away from nature in the first place, or at least had big part in it.

And Lovecraftian/Far Realm being can be, oddly enough, closely connected to nature, with the prime example being Shub-Niggurath.

[Edit]

Here's my (another) possiible origin for Moander, inspired mainly by Wooly, and his comparisons to Wyrm, but also a bit by dazzlerdal's and Ayrik's musings.

Moander was created originaly as a symbiotic being to Chauntea, with him/her handling the aspects of decay, and rebirth. He/She also cleared pollution and corruption that appeared on Toril, by demanifacturing it into components compatible with nature.
But when the struggle between Shar and Selune started, the destruction, as well as the actions of Shadevari polluted Toril horribly, both phisicaly and spiritualy. Moander desided to absorb all of the pollution into himself/herself, it's not known if s/he done to protect Chautea, or because Moander simply thought it as a ultimate extension of his/hers role and responcibilities. That action, warped him/her into the monstrous being of corruption we know. S/He latter was on Shar's side, but ultimately only cared for corrupting and decaying Toril's Crystal Sphere, and all other planes. If s/he does it as warped view of it's responsibilities, or if Moander just became force of pure evil, is also unknown.

Edited by - Baltas on 27 Sep 2014 14:53:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  15:57:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only thing I can say about any of this and 5e is 'additive design'. We have been missing that for far too long.

What 1e/2e did was make the lore hazy, which lead to much speculation... and also gave DMs much leeway in how to spin things in their own campaigns. Towards the end of 2e and all throughout 3e they went with a 'set in stone' approach to everything, which is why we wound up with (IMO) a large amount of fans 'disgruntled', because they felt the canon (read: novel-plots pushing the setting forward) was diverging too far from their home games.

Whats this got to do with Moander and other 'lost gods'? EVERYTHING. All we need to know is that their are some folks out there (in FR) that are still worshiping all these beings. PCs don't need to know 'the truth of things', because even in the RW we don't know the truth of such things (ie, proof of 'God'). They worship them, and some of them might even be getting spells from them... but that doesn't mean the thing answering their prayers is anything close to what they think they are praying to.

5e is about 'old school' gaming, and what that means is, Players DON'T know everything... as it should be.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2014 15:58:41
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  16:05:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know, Baltas just gave me another thought...

I've never liked the idea of the Lathander-Amaunator-Myrkul cycle... What if, instead of those three being one continuously changing deity, they were all, originally, separate?

Here's the idea: At one point, there was just Amaunator, and some earlier, now-forgotten nature deity, whom I will dub Moathan.

Now, we know what happened when Moander corrupted Tyche -- Selūne zapped her, and out popped Tymora and Beshaba.

What if this wasn't the first time one deity had split into two?

What if Moathan covered the entire cycle of life, from rebirth to decay and back? And then somehow Moathan got corrupted, and split into two aspects -- Lathander (rebirth) and Moander (decay)?

The young Lathander could have been absorbed by Amaunator, who at that time covered all of the solar aspects. Absorbing all of that "good" from Lathander was kind of overwhelming, causing the dusk aspect of Amaunator to be lost -- eventually getting picked up by Myrkul.

And Lathander wasn't fully subsumed, so sometimes he's the prominent one, and other times Amaunator is.

Hmm, now I've got two theories for Moander's creation that I really like!

Edit: Cast banish typo.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Sep 2014 17:25:33
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Delwa
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Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  17:02:37  Show Profile  Visit Delwa's Homepage Send Delwa a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, Baltas just gave me another thought...

I've never liked the idea of the Lathander-Amaunator-Myrkul cycle... What if, instead of those three being one continuously changing deity, they were all, originally, separate?

Here's the idea: At one point, there was just Amaunator, and some earlier, now-forgotten nature deity, whom I will dub Moathan.

Now, we know what happened when Moander corrupted Tyche -- Selūne zapped her, and out popped Tymora and Beshaba.

What if this wasn't the first time one deity had split into so?

What if Moathan covered the entire cycle of life, from rebirth to decay and back? And then somehow Moathan got corrupted, and split into two aspects -- Lathander (rebirth) and Moander (decay)?

The young Lathander could have been absorbed by Amaunator, who at that time covered all of the solar aspects. Absorbing all of that "good" from Lathander was kind of overwhelming, causing the dusk aspect of Amaunator to be lost -- eventually getting picked up by Myrkul.

And Lathander wasn't fully subsumed, so sometimes he's the prominent one, and other times Amaunator is.

Hmm, now I've got two theories for Moander's creation that I really like!


Now this idea I like. Combine that with the Great Cartographers' point about, "the PC's don't know everything," and I'll have my players swimming in alleged heresy for the rest of my life! If I leave ambiguous notes behind, they really will hate me!.

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sleyvas
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USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  17:54:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, Baltas just gave me another thought...

I've never liked the idea of the Lathander-Amaunator-Myrkul cycle... What if, instead of those three being one continuously changing deity, they were all, originally, separate?

Here's the idea: At one point, there was just Amaunator, and some earlier, now-forgotten nature deity, whom I will dub Moathan.

Now, we know what happened when Moander corrupted Tyche -- Selūne zapped her, and out popped Tymora and Beshaba.

What if this wasn't the first time one deity had split into two?

What if Moathan covered the entire cycle of life, from rebirth to decay and back? And then somehow Moathan got corrupted, and split into two aspects -- Lathander (rebirth) and Moander (decay)?

The young Lathander could have been absorbed by Amaunator, who at that time covered all of the solar aspects. Absorbing all of that "good" from Lathander was kind of overwhelming, causing the dusk aspect of Amaunator to be lost -- eventually getting picked up by Myrkul.

And Lathander wasn't fully subsumed, so sometimes he's the prominent one, and other times Amaunator is.

Hmm, now I've got two theories for Moander's creation that I really like!

Edit: Cast banish typo.



Hmmmm, could this somehow be tied into the death of the original sun by the Night Serpent? Would we want to? Just throwing it out as a possibility.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Sep 2014 :  04:55:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

You know, Baltas just gave me another thought...

I've never liked the idea of the Lathander-Amaunator-Myrkul cycle... What if, instead of those three being one continuously changing deity, they were all, originally, separate?

Here's the idea: At one point, there was just Amaunator, and some earlier, now-forgotten nature deity, whom I will dub Moathan.

Now, we know what happened when Moander corrupted Tyche -- Selūne zapped her, and out popped Tymora and Beshaba.

What if this wasn't the first time one deity had split into two?

What if Moathan covered the entire cycle of life, from rebirth to decay and back? And then somehow Moathan got corrupted, and split into two aspects -- Lathander (rebirth) and Moander (decay)?

The young Lathander could have been absorbed by Amaunator, who at that time covered all of the solar aspects. Absorbing all of that "good" from Lathander was kind of overwhelming, causing the dusk aspect of Amaunator to be lost -- eventually getting picked up by Myrkul.

And Lathander wasn't fully subsumed, so sometimes he's the prominent one, and other times Amaunator is.

Hmm, now I've got two theories for Moander's creation that I really like!

Edit: Cast banish typo.



Hmmmm, could this somehow be tied into the death of the original sun by the Night Serpent? Would we want to? Just throwing it out as a possibility.



I've heard of that one, but I'm not familiar enough with it to try to make the connection... But I think the idea stands well enough without tying it to the original sun; throwing that one in there could make it overly complicated.

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sfdragon
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2219 Posts

Posted - 29 Sep 2014 :  22:37:41  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Moander came from Darksun...... hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, the dragon kings did it.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Ayrik
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Canada
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Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  00:13:41  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Functioning under the (absolutely unofficial) assumption that Moander was once an unmalignant nature god sort and asking *when* his corruption occured doesnt seem meaningful to me.

There is an assumption in D&D lore that some Great Gu Ubergod created the cosmos and the world and (at least the first of) all the powers in his pantheon. And that they were initially all good and played nice and generally shared their candy and lived happily ever after until some terrible seed of dark nastiness sprouted in one, then others, from the forevermore divided once uniformly-Good pantheon.

Admittedly, D&D lore has thus far followed this formula. As did some versions of ancient mythology in our own world. Gutless, methinks. Strongly maligned deities (or characters of any sort) shouldnt mince words with meekness and a false veneer of pleasantries - they oughtta be bad from the moment of their inception, taking what they want at the cost of others with an arrogant mwoohaha without any pretense whatsoever. None of this Good-fallen-into-Evil trope, boring cliche which leads to the even more unimaginative Redemption cliche. Born Evil, Be Evil, Stay Evil, Die Evil - why not?

Moander could just as easily have been formed in a malformed way, perhaps a design flaw, perhaps just built wrong. He might have been an unpleasant force of nature right from the beginning, freshly made to start rotting.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Sep 2014 00:15:43
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31636 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2014 :  04:50:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

Functioning under the (absolutely unofficial) assumption that Moander was once an unmalignant nature god sort and asking *when* his corruption occured doesnt seem meaningful to me.

There is an assumption in D&D lore that some Great Gu Ubergod created the cosmos and the world and (at least the first of) all the powers in his pantheon. And that they were initially all good and played nice and generally shared their candy and lived happily ever after until some terrible seed of dark nastiness sprouted in one, then others, from the forevermore divided once uniformly-Good pantheon.

Admittedly, D&D lore has thus far followed this formula. As did some versions of ancient mythology in our own world. Gutless, methinks. Strongly maligned deities (or characters of any sort) shouldnt mince words with meekness and a false veneer of pleasantries - they oughtta be bad from the moment of their inception, taking what they want at the cost of others with an arrogant mwoohaha without any pretense whatsoever. None of this Good-fallen-into-Evil trope, boring cliche which leads to the even more unimaginative Redemption cliche. Born Evil, Be Evil, Stay Evil, Die Evil - why not?

Moander could just as easily have been formed in a malformed way, perhaps a design flaw, perhaps just built wrong. He might have been an unpleasant force of nature right from the beginning, freshly made to start rotting.



Oh, I've no problem with deities being evil from the get-go. Shar, Bhaal, Myrkul, Malar, Bane, that bunch -- yeah, I'm doubting any of them ever went thru a kittens and My Little Pony phase. And that's fine.

I don't think it as likely, though, that rot and decay would naturally spring up as portfolios among a pantheon. Rot and decay are, in a sense, dark sides of nature, and nature is generally presented as being neutral -- sometimes soft and/or beautiful, sometimes merciless and deadly.

On top of that, we already have, in Realmslore, an example of a deity being corrupted.

So for me, the fact that divine corruption has happened before and the fact that rot and decay are unlikely portfolios, these add up to some interesting possibilities.

Now, I will point out that this isn't like my Xvim/Bane theory -- there is really nothing supporting the idea that Moander was at one time neutral, and there is similarly nothing indicating he was part of another deity. I just found a couple of possibilities that I like better than what we have. In particular, I like the Moander/Lathander origin idea a lot better than the tripartite sun deity idea.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 02 Oct 2014 :  10:55:00  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, but I guess Wooly that you intended Moathan to be god of Life, Death and Rebirth, not connected to the sun?

Also, Shar seems to have been neutral originaly, only has become evil, after her fatal argument with Selune.
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