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Silver Idea
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2014 :  22:11:53  Show Profile Send Silver Idea a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi, everyone! It feels so good to find a place full of Forgotten Realms fans! Nice to meet you all.:)

[spoilers for the Wyvern's Spur, I guess]

I remember reading ĎThe Wyvernís Spurí and rooting exclusively for Giogi and Olive, thinking Flattery must be finished off the sooner the better. I never expected that he had any serious reasons (apart from ďhe is a villainĒ) to behave the way he did. I detested him for beating up Cat and killing Jade (I liked Jade). So after reading ĎThe Song of the Saurialsí I felt quite ashamed for not even considering that he might have been innocent at some point of his existence.

I wonder if anyone felt the same way about him?

Cause now I think it is kind of unfair that Finder gets all the praise and becomes a god, while Flattery is just swept under the carpet with the ďThere was nothing to be done about himĒ label.

Rereading ĎThe Wyvernís Spurí this year I became so sympathetic that I wrote a story about what his first days of life might have been like. It is as canon as I could possibly make it (no original characters, and I studied the book carefully to make sure my ideas are firmly based on it). If anyone is interested, here is the link: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10603522/1/Flattery-Wyvernspur-A-Broken-Music-Box (I'd be really grateful if you were so kind as to point out any mistakes that slipped into my writing). Disclaimer: the story is a fanfiction work with no intention to make money, violate copyright, etc. It's written by a fan for fans with all due respect for the authors.

But basically, Iíd be happy to just hear that Iím not the only person in the world who thinks that Flattery is an interesting character.)

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  05:12:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Flattery had reason to dislike Finder. He didn't have reason to try to murder him, or to murder anyone else.

The fact that he was once innocent, or that he was wronged, does not excuse the actions he willfully chose to undertake afterwards.

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Silver Idea
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  07:42:06  Show Profile Send Silver Idea a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That is exactly what I find interesting about him. At first, I thought that he was Ďbuiltí this way (ĎcursedĒ, like Olive said) and couldnít have chosen to be something else. Now I see that it was his conscious decision. And a villain with a conscious decision to be one is not something we come across in many books (or maybe itís just my bad luck)).

I hope I didnít sound like I approve of his murdering sadistic behavior, it wasnít my intention. X))
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  07:56:04  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the Wyvernspurs in general are awesome, and I'd like to learn more about them.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1139 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  08:27:19  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm re-reading The Wyvern's Spur right now. And I would love to know more about what Flattery was up to for the 200 years or so that Finder was imprisoned. A fascinating story/character to be sure, he became an archmage higher level than Manshoon even. He was truly vile in the novel, well portrayed as despicable. God I love the writing of Grubb/Novak!
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
811 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  13:49:23  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The wyvern's spur was probably the funniest realms book I ever read. In a good way. Had great comic relief and overall a lot of LOL moments
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
33879 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  14:52:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

I think the Wyvernspurs in general are awesome, and I'd like to learn more about them.



I'd like that myself, particularly Cat and Giogi.

Actually, I'd like to see more of Alias's sisters in general. I've long found them fascinating, to the point of using one in one of my Lords of Waterdeep articles.

While we know that Alias and her sisters are human enough to have kids (because Cat and Giogi have kids), it's not outside the realm of possibility that their constructed nature gives them a long lifespan, or possibly even immortality -- especially since one would expect Finder to want that for his legacy. We know Flattery was around for a long time; it may or may not have been his spellcraft, but he basically didn't age for over 2 centuries. So it's possible that there is an Alias clone still hale and hearty in the 5E era.

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Silver Idea
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  16:39:00  Show Profile Send Silver Idea a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

The wyvern's spur was probably the funniest realms book I ever read. In a good way. Had great comic relief and overall a lot of LOL moments


So true! Giogi was hilarious, and somehow aunt Dorath always made me laugh too.))


Yeah, Iíd love to read about more of Aliasís copies!
Iím quite sure that both Alias and Flattery were created to be immortal (otherwise, whatís the point of creating them if their lifespan was similar to Finderís?) but Iím not sure about Aliasís copies. False created them to kill Moander, so it depends on Falseís judgement about how long it was supposed to take them to accomplish this task.
I havenít read The Masquarades or The Finderís Bane, maybe there is some hint on the subject there, I donít know.
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Silver Idea
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  16:43:15  Show Profile Send Silver Idea a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I'm re-reading The Wyvern's Spur right now. And I would love to know more about what Flattery was up to for the 200 years or so that Finder was imprisoned.



Learning to fence? LOL And building that fortress must have taken some time, even with his magic and zombie slaves.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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33879 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  21:00:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Idea

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

The wyvern's spur was probably the funniest realms book I ever read. In a good way. Had great comic relief and overall a lot of LOL moments


So true! Giogi was hilarious, and somehow aunt Dorath always made me laugh too.))


Yeah, Iíd love to read about more of Aliasís copies!
Iím quite sure that both Alias and Flattery were created to be immortal (otherwise, whatís the point of creating them if their lifespan was similar to Finderís?) but Iím not sure about Aliasís copies. False created them to kill Moander, so it depends on Falseís judgement about how long it was supposed to take them to accomplish this task.
I havenít read The Masquarades or The Finderís Bane, maybe there is some hint on the subject there, I donít know.




I think Phalse had a lot more in mind than just killing Moander... He did create 12 duplicates, after all, and none of them were the same.

We had: a Mulhorandi warrior, one from the far north, a Waterdhavian courtesan (the one I used), a Moonshae druid, one with eastern weapons and clad entirely in black (a ninja?), a cleric of Tymora (Zhara, perhaps?), Jade More (a thief), and Cat of Ordulin (a mage). Also mentioned, by Zhara, are a sage in Candlekeep, an eastern warrior (the possible ninja?) and a "lady of some power in Waterdeep" (the courtesan?).

That's a pretty wide range of classes, and a lot of bodies, for just one mission.

While I do think the immortality of the Alias clones is a reasonable assumption, there remains the fact that Alias and her sisters were a joint effort -- so immortality might not have been an objective for all of the creators.

There is also the fact that if immortality was that easy, then-mortal Finder could have bestowed it on himself and then he wouldn't have needed to leave a legacy.

It could also be interesting to learn if being born from a construct had any impact on Cat's children, or any of the other kids that may have been borne of Alias and her sisters.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Aug 2014 21:06:37
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1139 Posts

Posted - 09 Aug 2014 :  23:14:36  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The other thing is that Alias and her "sisters" were created at a grown age; they didn't have to grow up from babies so it would makes sense that they did not need to age. Cassana AND Finder were both vain and hated aging, while Moander and False would be immortal and probably want their creation to last as long as they do.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33879 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2014 :  04:30:40  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

The other thing is that Alias and her "sisters" were created at a grown age; they didn't have to grow up from babies so it would makes sense that they did not need to age. Cassana AND Finder were both vain and hated aging, while Moander and False would be immortal and probably want their creation to last as long as they do.



*shrugs* Like I say, I don't think it's implausible that they would be immortal, but I'm not going to assume they are without some solid evidence.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1139 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2014 :  08:40:20  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also Zrie Prakis was immortal as an undead lich! I guess we should examine Masquerade for any indication that Alias has aged from Azure Bonds.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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33879 Posts

Posted - 10 Aug 2014 :  14:55:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

Also Zrie Prakis was immortal as an undead lich! I guess we should examine Masquerade for any indication that Alias has aged from Azure Bonds.



I recall some references to her emotional maturity, but I can't say I recall any references to physical aging. Of course, if she was created as say a 20 year old, adding a few years on that is often an improvement.

The references to her emotional maturity were interesting, I thought. So many references to created personalities -- whether magically created or something like an AI -- ignore that aspect.

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Firestorm
Senior Scribe

Canada
811 Posts

Posted - 12 Aug 2014 :  01:28:07  Show Profile Send Firestorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Silver Idea

quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm

The wyvern's spur was probably the funniest realms book I ever read. In a good way. Had great comic relief and overall a lot of LOL moments


So true! Giogi was hilarious, and somehow aunt Dorath always made me laugh too.))


Yeah, Iíd love to read about more of Aliasís copies!
Iím quite sure that both Alias and Flattery were created to be immortal (otherwise, whatís the point of creating them if their lifespan was similar to Finderís?) but Iím not sure about Aliasís copies. False created them to kill Moander, so it depends on Falseís judgement about how long it was supposed to take them to accomplish this task.
I havenít read The Masquarades or The Finderís Bane, maybe there is some hint on the subject there, I donít know.




Everything about that book made me laugh.

When Olive falls for the old "Apple to Halter trick" when she was polymorphed into a donkey.

"How about a little treat," Giogi said, holding out a quarter of an apple.

At least that could be considered halfling food, Olive decided. She muzzled the fruit from the nobleman's hand. Giogi's other hand slid something up over her ears. The feeling of leather straps about her muzzle caused Olive's nose to twitch. Nine Hells, she thought. I fell for the apple and the halter trick.


Uncle Drone, who fluffed his pillow to lay down in the room nobody was supposed to be in, Cat waking up thinking he is trying to smother her, and him getting out of dodge. HAHAHAHAHA

"Uncle Drone, why did you try to smother Cat?" Giogi asked crossly.

"I didn't try to smother the girl. In the dark, I didn't know she was there. My night vision's not what it was, you know. I fluffed a pillow and dropped it in the bed; the next thing I know, I've got a hysterical woman shrieking in my ear."


Edited by - Firestorm on 12 Aug 2014 01:31:01
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Silver Idea
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2014 :  11:00:28  Show Profile Send Silver Idea a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Uncle Drone, who fluffed his pillow to lay down in the room nobody was supposed to be in, Cat waking up thinking he is trying to smother her, and him getting out of dodge. HAHAHAHAHA

"Uncle Drone, why did you try to smother Cat?" Giogi asked crossly.



Yeah, that's my favorite one too!:)))

Or, and Giogi's talking to the statue!! :) And the dialogue that followed, with Sudakar:

"I came out to bring you back inside, unless you're too busy rendering assistance to Azoun's granddad. Getting to be a habit with you, I hear."
"What?" Giogi asked, wondering if Sudacar meant that rumors abounded that he drank heavily and often collapsed beneath town monuments.
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Silver Idea
Acolyte

7 Posts

Posted - 02 Sep 2014 :  11:16:38  Show Profile Send Silver Idea a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, there was another thing I wanted to ask about Alias's copies.

They all had the magical signs on their arms, but what were the signs and why they were there at all? Alias's signs disappeared when she killed all her masters, and the rose which appeared on her arm later was "awarded by gods for her loyalty to the bard's songs" (or something like that, I don't remember the exact words said by Olive). Now with False killed, Alais's copies have no master and they don't sing Finder's songs. What signs are they supposed to have? And for that matter, do you think Flattery had some sort of marking on his arm as well?

I don't quite understand the nature of those signs, really.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 02 Sep 2014 :  11:31:31  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The tattoos were a control mechanism.

As I recall, they were replaced by a rose.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1139 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2014 :  03:59:02  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't think Flattery would have been marked, as the tattoos were created by Zrie, Cassana, Phalse, Moander, and the Fire Knives. Flattery only got a blank mark where his sigil would have been on Alias and Dragonbait.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 03 Sep 2014 :  05:25:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin

I don't think Flattery would have been marked, as the tattoos were created by Zrie, Cassana, Phalse, Moander, and the Fire Knives. Flattery only got a blank mark where his sigil would have been on Alias and Dragonbait.



Agreed. And the blank spot was a kind of mockery from the others.

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Ayrik
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Canada
7182 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  00:56:19  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
About Flatterys apparent longevity ...

Wasnt his essence (and destiny) somehow linked with Finder? We know that Finders aging was halted for centuries while he was imprisoned in some place proximate to the life-giving Positive Energy Plane - perhaps this benefit extended as far as Flattery?

And we dont really know a lot about these fellows before Finders incarceration. Except that Finder was possibly the finest bard in the Realms, with world-class abilities and an array of potent magics at his command. No doubt Flattery would be similarly well-endowed, a certain symmetry is required for him to serve as Finders nemesis, in which case he may have already taken measures to extend his lifespan.

[/Ayrik]
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2223 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  02:11:03  Show Profile Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always wanted someone to write up all the "sisters" they created. I think it could make an entire sourcebook similar to the Seven Sister's source book and would provide possible campaign ideas and, of course, a host of new powerful NPCs to play with.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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33879 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  04:16:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

I have always wanted someone to write up all the "sisters" they created. I think it could make an entire sourcebook similar to the Seven Sister's source book and would provide possible campaign ideas and, of course, a host of new powerful NPCs to play with.



Well, I listed the ones mentioned in the books... There was an unofficial template for them in the Realms Bestiary, Volumes 1 & 2 by Eric L. Boyd and Thomas M. Costa.

I ran with one of them when I was doing my Lords of Waterdeep project, but I didn't actually stat her up or anything -- I just described her and used her as an element of the backstory I was crafting.

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Seravin
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1139 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  18:28:05  Show Profile Send Seravin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

About Flatterys apparent longevity ...

Wasnt his essence (and destiny) somehow linked with Finder? We know that Finders aging was halted for centuries while he was imprisoned in some place proximate to the life-giving Positive Energy Plane - perhaps this benefit extended as far as Flattery?

And we dont really know a lot about these fellows before Finders incarceration. Except that Finder was possibly the finest bard in the Realms, with world-class abilities and an array of potent magics at his command. No doubt Flattery would be similarly well-endowed, a certain symmetry is required for him to serve as Finders nemesis, in which case he may have already taken measures to extend his lifespan.



Flattery was created to keep Finder's songs precisely preserved long after Finder died of old age or was killed. Presumably this wouldn't have worked well if Flattery died of old age himself, this plus that Flattery didn't appear as old as Finder several hundred years after his creation, leads me to assume that Flattery was created to be ageless/immortal unless killed (say, by slamming into the ground at a high velocity). Though of course he was an archmage/necromancer, so he could have made elixirs or some such magic to sustain his youth, too.

I want to believe Alias was the created the same way, because I want her alive in the late 1400s, but questions to Ed to clarify this have gone unanswered so far. I wonder if I try Jeff Grubb on his blog or FB page?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  19:15:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The thing that I keep coming back to is that if immortality could be bestowed on another, it should be possible to bestow it on yourself, as well. And if Finder could do that, he wouldn't have needed to have created Flattery.

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xaeyruudh
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USA
1852 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2014 :  20:09:37  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Making a construct immortal ("built to last" for a long time at least) is much easier than making yourself immortal. And didn't he take some measures to extend his own lifespan? As a bard of some considerable skill and knowledge, he would have known about most artifacts/techniques for achieving immortality. If there was a myth or a song or even a rumor about it, he would have heard it.

It's been a while since I've read the books, and I'm probably reading into it, but being immortal should not be enough for Finder. He wanted instruments (several of them) who would learn his music and play it exactly as he played it. He would have wanted them to play *for* him, so that he could separate himself from the tedium and dirt of dealing with people. Finder wanted to build music... learn all of what existed, distill it to its most perfect expressions, and then improve on those and create new expressions of his own... and send his students out to teach for him.

I don't think Finder wanted immortality as much as he wanted to embody and personify expression. Immortality was a necessity for achieving his goals, rather than being the goal. Arrogance and disdain and lack of empathy (also in their pure forms) were unintentional consequences.

Just my take on it, while digging through the cobwebs in my attic.
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