Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Animate Temporary Simulacrum
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  00:17:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was just thinking it would be useful to be able to animate a temporary simulacrum in certain circumstances (maybe it only lasts a minute per level). I'm thinking it resembles nothing more than a roughly humanoid shape made of snow, and cannot be used to make a simulacrum of anything but a humanoid. It would be useful as a means to make some quick minor tanks. However, if you had a bunch of wands or some such, it could be a quick way to make a group of "mages" who could aid you in an assault. I'm thinking the same level as the simulacrum spell, but lacking the illusion effect and not having the xp and cost expenditures. Have a somewhat long casting time (say a minute) to simulate the time to form the body from snow and insert some dna. All other effects being the same. Maybe have a limit on the number that you can have in effect at once (maybe max of 3?). Anyone see any major flaws?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  00:48:49  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wouldn't it be easier to haste and gain multiple attacks that way?

Me, if I was going to do a temporary simulacrum, I'd do it more like the PICA in the Safehold books -- the Personality-Intergrated Cybernetic Avatar is programmed to wipe its personality after three days, but during those three days, the person whose personality is downloaded into it can do all sorts of dangerous things, like base jumping or entering highly radioactive areas.

So if I was doing a temporary simulacrum, the caster would be in stasis while he was driving his physically identical simulacrum, and that simulacrum would simply dissolve after a few days or a week. It would be similar to a deity's avatar, except for the fact that it's a one-off and the original body isn't doing something unrelated.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Jul 2014 00:50:01
Go to Top of Page

Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  03:38:15  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In terms of actual costs to the caster, what'd you have in mind?

Seems like an easy way to blitkrieg a foe and win.

EDIT: were I a DM for whom a player brought me this spell idea for review and approval, I'd be inclined to say the spell must put some element of the caster's person on the line in exchange for the ability to call up a number of capable duplicates of the caster and without needing the standard compoments...hit points or con points or something that the caster loses temporarily while the spell functions, and permanently if any of the duplicates are destroyed before the spell expires/is dismissed.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 22 Jul 2014 04:30:32
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2014 :  07:43:05  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally I'd go with a 5th-level spell that requires 1d4hp to be sacrificed by the caster for each simulacra but I wouldn't make that loss permanent. Instead, the caster wouldn't be able to heal those points until after the simulacra were destroyed or the spell ends. Also, no more than 1 simulacra per 3 total levels but each is limited to 1/3 the caster's overall level (instead of half). Thus, a 9th-level wizard could have three 3rd-level simulacra but would lose 3d4hp that can't be healed until the simulacra have expired in some manner.

Assuming you top this out at 20th-level, that's 6 simulacra of 6th level with a temporary sacrifice of 6d6hp (nothing to sneeze at when you think how few hp wizards usually have). Personally, I'd allow higher than a 20th-level cap for the spell.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  00:44:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

Personally I'd go with a 5th-level spell that requires 1d4hp to be sacrificed by the caster for each simulacra but I wouldn't make that loss permanent. Instead, the caster wouldn't be able to heal those points until after the simulacra were destroyed or the spell ends. Also, no more than 1 simulacra per 3 total levels but each is limited to 1/3 the caster's overall level (instead of half). Thus, a 9th-level wizard could have three 3rd-level simulacra but would lose 3d4hp that can't be healed until the simulacra have expired in some manner.

Assuming you top this out at 20th-level, that's 6 simulacra of 6th level with a temporary sacrifice of 6d6hp (nothing to sneeze at when you think how few hp wizards usually have). Personally, I'd allow higher than a 20th-level cap for the spell.




Thank you arcanamach, these are good ideas. I was thinking about lowering the spell level and the corresponding percentage of level transferred (i.e. 1/3). I like the idea of the hp sacrificing. That being said, this leaves it mechanically open for a 7th lvl version that's say 1/2 lvl of the caster, but maybe only 1 sim per 6 caster levels. Thus, for comparison, at 20th lvl, you could have 3 10th lvls. Maybe the hp loss for the higher version is more. I definitely don't want actual xp or gold cost, as these are very temporary constructs and much weaker than something that they could summon as a for instance.

Oh, also, since they are such short term, it might be specified that they cannot memorize spells. This makes the spell more useful for copying casters that don't memorize their spells (sorcerors, warmages, etc...).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2014 :  00:47:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Wouldn't it be easier to haste and gain multiple attacks that way?

Me, if I was going to do a temporary simulacrum, I'd do it more like the PICA in the Safehold books -- the Personality-Intergrated Cybernetic Avatar is programmed to wipe its personality after three days, but during those three days, the person whose personality is downloaded into it can do all sorts of dangerous things, like base jumping or entering highly radioactive areas.

So if I was doing a temporary simulacrum, the caster would be in stasis while he was driving his physically identical simulacrum, and that simulacrum would simply dissolve after a few days or a week. It would be similar to a deity's avatar, except for the fact that it's a one-off and the original body isn't doing something unrelated.



This is more achievable via spells like the second edition one where you transfer your soul to a dead body (from complete book of necromancers, the spell was "corpse host").

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Great Reader

2377 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2020 :  08:29:53  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are spells that create temporary constructs, both autonomous (Iron Maiden - The Seven Sisters) and remote (Sand Form - Arabian Adventures).
So why not more, indeed.
It's just that autonomous action normally is done via summoning.

A related subject to ponder is: simulacrum's advantage is ability to pass for the original, and it lacks obvious traits that would limit this. But for different tasks, why not make constructs related to simulacrum, but based on variety of substances?
Even if it should be a paraelement, there are 3 other than Ice (snow): Smoke (inherent "wraithform", avoid damage and non-sealed barriers?), Magma (sluggish, but destructive), Ooze (perhaps somewhere between Ice and Smoke versions?) - the latter is something at least followers of Ghanadaur should have tried, and perhaps others could steal and improve.
If you consider its base substance "paraelement+element" (snow = Ice + Air), there are even more possibilities.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Go to Top of Page

TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore

USA
1289 Posts

Posted - 23 Jan 2020 :  15:46:33  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This sounds similar the 2e spell Mordenkainen's Faithful Phantom Defenders (Wizard's Spell Compendium Vol III, page 594). It is a 5th level spell that can summon 3 4HD warriors. There are other spells that deal with spell casters but typically any spells they cast come from the source mage's memorized spells. I remember there is one that creates a little copy of yourself that sits on your head (I just can't think of the name right now). This would also be good for something similar to the Horn of Valhalla. Perhaps, a pointy wizard's hat that you pull spell casting rabbits from.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."

My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 24 Jan 2020 :  10:00:00  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow, long time since I proposed this, but I still think its a good idea. When I did propose it 5e wasn't out yet, so I must have been thinking under 3.5 rulesets. Iron maiden is different because you're summoning a helmed horror. Its not a lesser "spellcaster" version of yourself. The want here wouldn't be to "fool" people into believing you are in two spots, as that steals the show from simulacrum. It would be to create a very versatile "servitor" version via magic. Maybe its so you can do two things at once from two physically disparate locations via magic. Maybe its so you can send something into an area with spells protecting itself that you cannot place on another being (without it being your familiar).

Actually, THAT brings up ideas though that perhaps a spell to create a "familiar link" with a construct. Might be overpowered though if someone chooses a very powerful construct. The idea that this "lesser" simulacrum might not get its own spell pool as well, but rather draw from the spellcaster's might be a good mechanic. That is a definite difference from simulacrum which would give them their own spell slots.

The 5e version of simulacrum has your complete spell allotment, not a lesser version. It only lasts 12 hours now, so you can't have multiple versions buried in hidden places all the time. It is debatable if it has your memorized spells, but if you were someone with known spells that wouldn't be a problem (and they could use your cantrips for as long as they are alive). Since it does say it doesn't regain your expended spell slots though. However, this spell is definitely a broken spell in 5e since they tried to make it "simpler" and lost a lot of the controlling language of earlier editions, as I can now cast this 7th level spell to get a copy of myself that has a spell slot that has 9th lvl, 8th lvl, 7th lvl, etc... spells. Then I can have IT cast a simulacrum of me using one of its 7th level spell slots. Then I could use the second simulacrum to create a third simulacrum, and then use the third to create a fourth. Then I could send the fourth one in to do my dirty business and waste tons of high level spell slots and die. Then have the third create a new "fourth" and repeat. Yeah, definitely broken in 5e by trying to make it simpler. Definitely a high level sorcerer's dream spell.

I may try to think of a way to make what I was originally thinking though. Something maybe cast as a 5th level spell, but the lesser created being can never get spell slots above say 4th level.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Great Reader

2377 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2020 :  20:23:38  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban

This sounds similar the 2e spell Mordenkainen's Faithful Phantom Defenders (Wizard's Spell Compendium Vol III, page 594). It is a 5th level spell that can summon 3 4HD warriors. There are other spells that deal with spell casters but typically any spells they cast come from the source mage's memorized spells.

That's one way to do things.
Even aside of the usual magical bicycle inventing, there are also specific countermeasures (especially for summoning), advantages/disadvantages and preferred/barred schools for specialists.
Mordenkainen's Faithful * - Conjuration/Summoning.
Iron Maiden (The Seven Sisters) - Evocation.

Of the "remote body" spells, likewise
Shadow Form (Complete Ninja) - Illusion/Phantasm, Shadow
Sand Form (Arabian Adventures) - Necromancy, El.:Sand.
Corpse Host (The Complete Book of Necromancers) - Necromancy.
quote:

I remember there is one that creates a little copy of yourself that sits on your head (I just can't think of the name right now).

Homunculus Shield - Level 8 (Evocation, Necromancy) spell from Tome of Magic.
It can only do limited (but fast and "hands free") protective spellcasting on request, from the caster's prepared spells.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000