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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30973 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  01:37:54  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You know what I found really weird - they did a Living Jungle campaign with resources and everything (more than we ever got for Chult), and they stuck that in Malatra (southern K-T), where no-one would ever bother using it. All that juicy goodness should have been repurposed for Chult, or Maztica (or Hepmonaland in GH, etc.)

They also had Saurial, but called them 'Laecerials' This gave me the idea that the 'Saurial Homeworld' was really Abeir all along,and that before the worlds were split apart. Homebrew: The actual race of Sauroids (mentioned in old lore) was just that - the Saurials/Lacerials. The Lacerials were just a rare group that got 'left behind'., but there could have been others. The sarrukh were just one sub-type of Saurials, but one that became dominant over the others (they were a caste system), to the point where the rest of their fellow Sauroids were practically slaves. When Ao twinned the world, he chose to send the oppressed Saurials to Abeir, where it was hotter and better suited to them, without the sarrukh there to bother them. The sarrukh remained on Toril, and went though a 'little ice age', which was extremely detrimental to them - their civilization collapsed.

So you can borrow from the Malatra material or not (they have some very cool bald halflings - they looked/felt sort of 'Egyptian' to me), but either way you can still have saurials in maztica (or in the continents above and below maztica... whatever you want to call them).



The saurials can't be from Abeir. They had gods in their homeworld.

I see no issue with connecting the saurials to the sarrukh, though. However, I'd spin it that the saurials were an experimental race (or group of races) created by the sarrukh, who were either cast off for not being what the sarrukh wanted, or who fled the sarrukh to what became known to them as their homeworld.

Maybe when Moander enslaved the saurials, he was bringing them back the same way they left.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30973 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  01:39:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, and regarding the piece about how Maztica, Anchorome and Katashaka moving over and all we got was Laerakond..... noting this from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide

Halruaa. Once believed destroyed in the conflagration of the Spellplague, Halruaa has largely been restored to the insular, magic-mighty nation it once was. Because of the foresight of their divinations, Halruaan wizards were able to use the raging blue fire that followed Mystra's death to propel their nation safely into the realm of Toril's twin, Abeir (displacing part of that world into the Plane of Shadow).

So, thinking on that for a second, maybe that's WHY so little of Abeir came over to Toril... it got displaced to the plane of shadow. Also, nothing says that this displacement had to be "equal".... and in fact, maybe the work of the Halruaan wizards didn't JUST protect Halruaa. It may have extended to all lands moved. In fact, that statement could even place a "fledgling weave" in all moved lands, such that the practictioners sent to Abeir weren't lacking magic entirely. In fact, this "ripping" of a portion of the power of the weave could have been the reason why the magic on Toril went haywire for ten years. Zeromaru... I hope you're reading this... does this help us solve a lot of what we had been discussing.

Oh, and on the displaced piece of Abeir sent to Shadow.... maybe this was because they "pulled" the entirety of the shadow weave away from Shar during that flux moment when the Halruaans are "ripping" a portion of the weave (and thus... the place where the weave WASN'T <aka the shadow of the weave> was now in flux). Throwing that even further, if the weave suddenly WAS part of Abeir... then the places that it WASN'T in Abeir would technically suddenly become the "shadow of the weave" in Abeir. Maybe Mystra I knew that Mystra II would get killed (due to Savras) and she put things in motion to yank the shadow weave out of Mystra's control. The idea that Leira and Mask might be involved with that would actually make sense if the shadow weave were sent to shadow and both of them have ties to shadow in some form (after all Mask in 2e had shadows as HIS portfolio).



Some interesting ideas, here.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15628 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  04:18:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The saurials can't be from Abeir. They had gods in their homeworld.

I see no issue with connecting the saurials to the sarrukh, though. However, I'd spin it that the saurials were an experimental race (or group of races) created by the sarrukh, who were either cast off for not being what the sarrukh wanted, or who fled the sarrukh to what became known to them as their homeworld.

Maybe when Moander enslaved the saurials, he was bringing them back the same way they left.

With the amount of lore that got completely 'over written' with 4e and then 5e, I'm not all that worried if my version of the Saurials doesn't sync-up to the old lore... lore that obviously applied to some other Forgotten Realms.

New continuity, new lore. And its not even hard - we could just say the saurials thought they had gods. They thought they were priests, when in reality they were a type of warlock and they made pacts with primordials. Easy-peasy. Plus, the existence of the lacerials invalidated the old lore anyway (which explicitly stated that there were no 'native' Saurials).

The problem with changing canon in every edition is that it means people learn to simply ignore it - its no better than someone's homebrew at this point (which is all it really is anyway - the whole thing is Ed's homebrew).

I also say the Shalarin are from Abeir, even though they stupidly stated the Shalarin were from a sea on the other side of Toril (a sea, BTW, that I've yet to find...) in the GHotR.

I've come to think of FR lore the same way I think of RW history - its someone's 'best guess', and it sadly remains 'factual' long after its been disproven. Besides, if they don't want to anchor the wretched 4e lore to older lore, someone has to do it. And with the DMsGuild now, we can basically change whatever we want. All it takes is one line like, "Sages used to believe that such-and-such was true, but new information has come to light and now we know blah-blah-blah is true". Thats it. Thats all it takes to overwrite what has gone before.

If geography, gods, and history do not remain a constant in a setting, then nothing else needs to be. I just don't see a point in worrying about it anymore.

As for Halruaa returning, thats why I put 'The Halruaan Republic' on my map, so folks know it IS something different than before (factions and what-not).


*Edit: And even if I said it doesn't matter, if you still want all the lore to work, all you have to do is use the same story I did (that the Sauroid race included the Sarrukh), and not all of them went to Abeir (which is obvious by the presence of the lacerials in Malatra). We could say some went to another world (maybe more than one other) - I've been stating that the first Sundering was more of a 'shattering' for some time now, and if the Sarrukh/Sauroids were on the pre-shattered First World, then like all the other creator races they got spread throughout the new multiverse that was born after the dawn war. Thus, the Saurials that Alias dealt with were from a different world, but their ancestors were all from the same, pre-Sundered world, a part of which is Abeir. They were just a 'lost tribe' or some-such. Heck, if you really want to have fun you can even say they developed Spelljamming at some point in the distant past, but have since lost that tech.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2017 04:19:34
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Jürgen Hubert
Seeker

Germany
29 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  05:24:23  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Katashaka is even worse - we already have Chult (and a dozen other jungle-regions) connected directly to Faerûn. The Shaar is already our Savannah-region, so we really don't need an 'Africa' (which is why I am converting it over to Xendrik... which is a demiplane... sort of).


I disagree - Africa has a lot more to offer than "savannah", especially once you get the (frequently kinda racist) pulp tropes and examine real world cultures.

This is another reason why I identify Katashaka as the big island continent to the east of the "South Continent" - this way, I can keep my version of Katashaka as the "Land of the Giant Monsters" (including, of course, the Tarrasque) but have its native people colonize the surrounding regions and build new civilizations there, including on the South Continent where you could get hybrid cultures mixed with the local equivalent of South Americans (and frankly, if you lived on an island-continent with giant monsters, wouldn't you want to get away from it as well?)

quote:
And despite me doing maps of both Katashaka and Maztica ATM (and perhaps Anchoromé just to 'complete the set'), I would never use them myself.


In my version of Anchorome, I have [url=http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18944]an underground civilization of Elan[/url] based on H.P. Lovecraft's K'n-yan. Which still fit into the vaguely "Native American" tropes of the setting while avoiding the "primitive people" stigma.

quote:

I agree. It has a good basis, and that's why I was trying to work AROUND your work. The one major issue I had with your stuff was the "gods went silent for a century" piece.



Incidentally, it's actually rather easy to work that into Maztican cosmology.

You see, the calendar of the Aztecs has 52 year cycles, and at the end of each cycle the world was presumed to be in great danger, where the gods might renege on their contract with humanity. Thus, the Aztecs had the "New Fire Ceremony" to "jumpstart" the world.

And the Maztican calendar is based directly on the Aztec one, including the 52 year cycle. And you know how long Maztica stayed on Abeir?

104 years = 52 x 2 years

So it would be entirely appropriate for native thought that the world was weakened during a critical time period and experienced a disaster like the Spellplague, and then be "set right" two cycles later (and this is precisely what I am going for with "Returned Maztica"). The only downside to this was that the previous cycle was supposed to start in the year of Cordell's arrival... but if "calendar reform" is a thing that happened in our world, I don't see why Mazticans shouldn't have one.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6910 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  16:14:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


<snip>
I also say the Shalarin are from Abeir, even though they stupidly stated the Shalarin were from a sea on the other side of Toril (a sea, BTW, that I've yet to find...) in the GHotR.
<snip>




On some things, we seem to be swimming in the same circles often. Regarding the Shalarin, if we say that the only reference to the Sea of Corynactis was in Maztican lore.... AND we say that Maztica has made the transfer back and forth from Abeir at least once in the past... then someone may have found a reference to a Sea of Corynactis that's on Abeir and crossed that with information obtained from Shalarin about where they came from. Then again, maybe the Sea of Corynactis WAS on Abeir, and sometime between 651 DR and 1371 DR, it crossed to Toril. We actually don't know how much shifting may have started with things prior to the spellplague, and beings who lived deep underwater may not have noticed the change in the sky.

What we know of the Shalarin is that Dagon created a "wildtide portal" that opened between the Sea of Fallen Stars and Sea of Corynactis on -1509 DR, -789 DR, -69 DR, 651 DR, and 1371 DR,
and that Dagon intended to essentially murder (some might say "sacrifice") the shalarin that came through during the first wildtide portal but was stopped by the aid of merfolk aiding shalarin. After the last opening, this portal stayed open (possibly because the Sea transferred to Toril between the 4th and 5th opening of the Wildtide portal?). We also know from Dragon 355 that Dagon called on "long forgotten eldritch magics that restricted the influence of the deities of the shalarin, who dwell in the Sea of Corynactis on the far side of Abeir-Toril, West of Maztica, to the confines of the shalarin homeland."

So, IF she "deities" of the shalarin were some kind of water primordials on Abeir, the special ritual that Dagon may have been doing was simply creating the portal and shipping them from Abeir to Toril. He may have been planning on sacrificing their souls on Toril as a means to solidifying a hold on Toril. Since they had no deity on Toril, they'd be open for the taking. Meanwhile, as Dagon grew stronger, the Shalarin "deities" grew weaker, such that those in the Sea of Corynactis had converted to the worship of Dagon between 651 DR and 1371 DR (and most of those who had not converted were shipped to the Sea of Fallen Stars in 1371 in the last wildtide portal). It may have been that between 651 DR and 1371 DR the Sea of Corynactis DID transfer from Abeir to Toril, and the final opening of the portal stayed open simply because the two endpoints were in the same world.

On this concept as well, I also come back to some theories of "dream magic" having something to do with how primordials (or other entities like maybe Obyriths, Far Realm entities, etc...) can work kind of "like" deities. The reason I mention it is that the Cult of Dagon in the Sea of Fallen Stars says this in Dragon 355.

For over twelve millennia, undersea kingdoms have risen and fallen in the depth of Seros, the aquatic lands beneath the Sea of Fallen Stars, largely unknown to the surface-dwelling inhabitans of the lands above. All the while, in the abyssal depths of the Trench of Lopok, the obyrith lords known as "Those Who Sleep Below" have slumbered, their nightmares infecting the dreams of those who swim in the Sea of Fallen Stars.

Eldest of Those Who Sleep Below is Dagon, Prince of Darkened Depths. For centuries the obyrith demon lord has plotted to obliterate an entire pantheon of aquatic gods on the far side of Abeir-Toril in hopes of acquiring their divine power.


Hmmm, and thinking on Dagon and possible "deities" that he may have killed/absorbed , I'm thinking the Anguillians (who are canon to the realms, as they were in Drizzt Do'Urden's guide to the Underdark) are another race that would fit as worshippers of his. (Just a note, Anguillians are mainly from the Sea of Blood stuff from second edition which states that the anguillian race, once, very long ago possessed advanced biotechnology making them undisputed masters of the sea). I mention them, because the story of the Anguillians is that they have a "Deep Mother" and a "Deep Father" (I'm hearing some kind of Primal Power) who commune with the "deity" of the Anguillians who sought to be "born" into flesh to better serve them. So, a ceremony of godly investiture was done on an egg, which created a newly hatched deity Anguilesis-in-flesh.... however, surface elves who wanted to create sea elves invaded the hatching place and used magic to turn the weak godling and the Deep Father which was holding it into a ... wait for it... inanimate mineral (godstone?)... which became known as the Stone Which Abides.... and then those surface elves collapsed the hatchery. Some of these Anguillians then supposedly went on to worship Sekolah and their bodies were shifted into sahuagin. It then goes on to say that later on another faction of these surface elves conducted experiments on unwilling sahuagin captives resulting in the Malenti.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6910 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  16:30:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, and regarding the piece about how Maztica, Anchorome and Katashaka moving over and all we got was Laerakond..... noting this from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide

Halruaa. Once believed destroyed in the conflagration of the Spellplague, Halruaa has largely been restored to the insular, magic-mighty nation it once was. Because of the foresight of their divinations, Halruaan wizards were able to use the raging blue fire that followed Mystra's death to propel their nation safely into the realm of Toril's twin, Abeir (displacing part of that world into the Plane of Shadow).

So, thinking on that for a second, maybe that's WHY so little of Abeir came over to Toril... it got displaced to the plane of shadow. Also, nothing says that this displacement had to be "equal".... and in fact, maybe the work of the Halruaan wizards didn't JUST protect Halruaa. It may have extended to all lands moved. In fact, that statement could even place a "fledgling weave" in all moved lands, such that the practictioners sent to Abeir weren't lacking magic entirely. In fact, this "ripping" of a portion of the power of the weave could have been the reason why the magic on Toril went haywire for ten years. Zeromaru... I hope you're reading this... does this help us solve a lot of what we had been discussing.

Oh, and on the displaced piece of Abeir sent to Shadow.... maybe this was because they "pulled" the entirety of the shadow weave away from Shar during that flux moment when the Halruaans are "ripping" a portion of the weave (and thus... the place where the weave WASN'T <aka the shadow of the weave> was now in flux). Throwing that even further, if the weave suddenly WAS part of Abeir... then the places that it WASN'T in Abeir would technically suddenly become the "shadow of the weave" in Abeir. Maybe Mystra I knew that Mystra II would get killed (due to Savras) and she put things in motion to yank the shadow weave out of Mystra's control. The idea that Leira and Mask might be involved with that would actually make sense if the shadow weave were sent to shadow and both of them have ties to shadow in some form (after all Mask in 2e had shadows as HIS portfolio).



Some interesting ideas, here.



Thank you.... I feel a seed here... my idea of the "lands of belief" that transfer to Abeir still having magic, and thus being able to defend themselves may bear some fruit. Maybe it was weaker. Maybe it took some adjustment. Maybe because the old empires wizards of Mulhorand/Unther were using "southern magic" arcane principles they even had a harder time of things.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Jürgen Hubert
Seeker

Germany
29 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  17:35:00  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Thank you.... I feel a seed here... my idea of the "lands of belief" that transfer to Abeir still having magic, and thus being able to defend themselves may bear some fruit.



For "Returned Maztica" I assumed that the druids of Maztica kept their power in Abeir, since (a) druids work differently than clerics anyway, and (b) the natives of the continent assumed that since Maztica was literally the land they lived on, and the land traveled with them, there was no reason why they should "lose contact" with her.

A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15628 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  17:41:06  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

On some things, we seem to be swimming in the same circles often. Regarding the Shalarin, if we say that the only reference to the Sea of Corynactis was in Maztican lore.... AND we say that Maztica has made the transfer back and forth from Abeir at least once in the past... then someone may have found a reference to a Sea of Corynactis that's on Abeir and crossed that with information obtained from Shalarin about where they came from. Then again, maybe the Sea of Corynactis WAS on Abeir, and sometime between 651 DR and 1371 DR, it crossed to Toril. We actually don't know how much shifting may have started with things prior to the spellplague, and beings who lived deep underwater may not have noticed the change in the sky.
My logic path:
The sea of Corynactis is on Abeir. Maztican legends speak of such a sea 'far to the west', but these legends also date back to the True World.

Kara-Turran Sailors have also reported visiting a sea by that name, 'to the east'. However, contact with that body of water and the strange people and creatures that live there was sporadic, at best. most sailors intentionally looking for it either never found it, or never returned (there is a region with HUGE sea gates - I discussed something along these lines in my one CKC article). Shou sailors being as good as they are at traversing not just a world's oceans by the 'Sea of Night' as well, they have quite a lot of experience of navigating back to their homeworld.

Faerûnian scholars have come across the name in a number of places, besides the ones from Maz and K-T (plenty of planes-hopping going on back in the days of 'ancient empires') and have just assumed it is some uncharted sea somewhere on Toril. By the same token, 'on the other side of the world' could be metaphorically speaking, since Abeir & Toril were once One World (this may have even been a simple translation issue from Netherese or Imaskari texts).

As for the Sarrukh, as I've said above, the most basic supposition of nearly all my theories is that there was just ONE WORLD - the First World, which was destroyed during the Dawn and Gods wars. That world had the Creator races on it, and branches of those five races wound-up just about everywhere in the multiverse.

Thus, if I/we say that the Sarrukh is just one sub-group in the 'Sauroid' creation race (and the original lore for the Creatori does call them that), then it all fits. The Saurials that came from some other world may not have come from Abeir, but there still could be other Saurials on Abeir... they could even be called something else entirely (and there could be other sub-groups of dino-people as well that we haven't seen before). In fact, connecting this to what I was just talking about above - what if the Shalarin are the fully-evolved form of some sort of Elasmosauros?

And while I am on the subject (and please forgive this side-turn we've taken in the thread), why couldn't Iakhovas have been on Abeir for most of that time? I mean, seriously, he's got 'primordial shark' written all over him, and he just suddenly appeared out of nowhere (on Toril) to wreak havoc. I picture Abeir being something of a more primitive (prehistoric) version of Toril, so it would make some sense if we said he was from there (and thats why he and Umberlee hadn't had 'relations' in so long - they were on the two separate worlds...daddy Ao is a bit of a curmudgeon and didn't like the idea of 'mixed marriages' LOL).

In fact, he may have even found one of those Huge 'sea-gates' I mentioned above. Plus, there could be lots more things like him over on Abeir - terrasque-levels critters that Ao wanted to keep safely away from 'the gods'.


*And one last thought just struck me - what if Ibrandul had found a way to Toril from Abeir centuries ago, through the Shadowdark? Then when the ToT happened, Ao didn't give him an avatar on Toril, he just 'sent him home' to Abeir? Shar steps in, snatches up his portfolios, and claims to have killed him, and her church spreads that story. Its pretty easy for us to say that Ao also put the 'primal Powers' on Abeir with the Primordials, since many of them sided with them in the war.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2017 20:54:00
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6910 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  20:46:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Again circling around on a lot of the same waters. I agree on the idea that the Sarrukh themselves may not be the "iconic" (maybe better word "original") Sauroid race. I much prefer the idea that Abeir isn't filled with nothing but dragonborn and genasi as a lot of people are presenting. Personally, I'd like there to be a plethora of Sauroid races there (and on Toril) long ago. However, they survived on Abeir and died off or moved on from here.

Similarly, I'd like the sea races of Abeir to be different. Thus, it would fit if Abeir has Shalarin, and fitting in this lore... what if Anguillians also are prominent in Abeir. Also, the tortles, crabmen, tako, blue-ring octopi, ixitxachitl, and other very "fishy" creatures be common over there in the sea. However, in return, perhaps sahuagin/merrow/lacedons/sea hags/sea elves/merfolk/koalinth and similar "kinda mammalian" or "origin in Toril canon" creatures be rare to non-existent on Abeir.

I'd also like there to be a number of amphibious looking creatures in Abeir... for instance, variations of fire newts, bullywugs, salamanders, etc... (for instance, what about a storm newt or mountain salamander people)

I'd also like there to be a LOT of very much elemental races there. So, I'm thinking races like we were talking about in another thread... the Maug are not human looking stone people. Also, some variations on some classic themes, such as a tauric race, but with a stone dinosaur like body and a reptilian skulled top half with a stone chest and horns like maybe a triceratops. Dracotaurs as well that are in the forgotten realms may have crossed over in an earlier shift and managed to survive, and maybe they're as common as centaurs and wemics are on Toril.

While I wouldn't be adverse to a bunch of "feathered" there, I'd prefer to shy away from that, and instead have things like pterafolk, gargoyles, wyverns, dragons, maybe winged dragonmen... maybe bainligor (bat folk).

I'd actually like Abeir to NOT have a bunch of humans, but we can't necessarily do it because Laerakond is filled with them. Dwarves are also noted as fairly common in Laerakond. Orcs also apparently exist there. Fey are notedly absent though. But that could just be that one small section of the world, and the rest of the world could be these other races. I'd also like to see Abeir steer away from other mammalian humanoids (cat folk, dog folk, rodent folk, "herd" folk (minotaurs, yak men, goat men, etc..), etc..).

Why do I specify all this? Because when the spellplague happened, this was probably one of the largest transferrals to happen between the two worlds (and I make assumptions here that small transferrals have happened over time, say every few thousand years.... for instance, I wouldn't be surprised if Malatra had been in Abeir). One of the things I'm personally doing is moving a bunch of populations from Toril all around (for instance, my assumptions that the big 3 Chultan peninsula countries of Tashalar, Thindol, Samarach evacuate.... and recently I'm thinking if half of Var transferred... maybe the few who survived evacuated....) and some of those areas can come BACK filled with imports from Abeir. But, I'd like it to NOT be dragonlords with dragonborn servants. But, let's say Thindol comes back filled with bloodthirsty saurials (intelligent velociraptor folk, some dracotaurs, and pterafolk) .... and they think snake tastes great.... and the Tashalar is filled with somewhat peaceful saurials... Or Var comes back filled with a race to give challenge to the beasts of the beastlands and a threat to Durpar/Estagund/Ulgarth (maybe even a group of full fledged Sarrukh with servants, and they decide to help the Sarrukh of Okoth.... and they're also fully willing to mine plangent crystal and do weird grafts with it on their minion races).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  21:08:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If we imagine Abeir to be a world along the lines I do - that its a fairly unpleasant place, and they're are natural 'boundaries' that keep folks separated (like my {stolen} idea for an impassable 'hot belt' around the equator), then we can have our cake and eat it too. Since Abeir appears to be far more 'unnatural' (just something Ao slapped together 'on the fly'), it doesn't have to follow the normal rules of geography and cultures. We can have our continent of dinosaurs (I keep picturing dinotopia for the Sauroid race), and also have an continent of even more primitive creatures - spinelss things like Octopoids, etc. And then a continent of 'missing links' - like feathered reptiles, etc. Maybe the saurials came from there, because they had feathered dragons (and so does Maztica... another reason I think both Maztica and the Saurials originated from Abeir). The whole place could be a weird world of 'pocket environments' with creatures from different epochs (and this goes back to my theory about Overpowers having 'side worlds'{self storage}). In fact, this goes even further back to my theory that FR has two timelines - one before the Elves muddled with the sundering (and change everything from what it wa ssuposed to be), and the one we have now. Thus, all those things that were said to have been 'simply erased from time' as if they never existed? Ao shunted as much as he could over to Abeir - Abeir becomes the 'world that might have been' (a world without pesky elves destroying everything in sight).

Thats probably why he hung a sign on the planer portal - "No fiends, No elder Evils, & NO ELVES!" (as I pointed out above, Ao is a bit of an old-school racist/bigot LOL)

Orcs, on the other hand, are cute & cuddly. Anyone who hates elves has got to be a 'good guy', right?


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2017 21:09:53
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  00:39:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WIP of New Maztica map

FAR from finished. I haven't labeled anything yet. In fact, not sure if people want me to do that, or even place those settlements. Everything is as it was in 2e, but I have modified the coastline on the right 'leg' somewhat (because this was originally from another project), and also the 'cut' up the middle goes deeper. It just gives us more room, is all. Also, the scale might be a little off - I just took it directly from the FRIA maps, but I didn't double-check it like I usually do (I will, but I was in a rush to post something).

I need to add cliffs, and all those watch towers in the north as well. Like i said, its just a WIP.

Cheers

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Seethyr
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  02:09:31  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

WIP of New Maztica map

FAR from finished. I haven't labeled anything yet. In fact, not sure if people want me to do that, or even place those settlements. Everything is as it was in 2e, but I have modified the coastline on the right 'leg' somewhat (because this was originally from another project), and also the 'cut' up the middle goes deeper. It just gives us more room, is all. Also, the scale might be a little off - I just took it directly from the FRIA maps, but I didn't double-check it like I usually do (I will, but I was in a rush to post something).

I need to add cliffs, and all those watch towers in the north as well. Like i said, its just a WIP.

Cheers



Even as a WIP, this is awesome MT! One of the changes that I noticed and that you mentioned to me earlier is the size of Far Payit. I think it’s a huge improvement. A lot goes on there and has in the novels. It always felt a little too crowded beforehand. Lore wise it’s an easy explanation too. Whether it picked up some area in Abeir or it was faulty mapmaking from inexperienced Faerunians that didn’t quite get it right in the past...

I’m looking forward to what you do with it in the future - but I’ll certainly be using it as is for my own campaign.

All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  03:09:38  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

WIP of New Maztica map

FAR from finished. I haven't labeled anything yet. In fact, not sure if people want me to do that, or even place those settlements. Everything is as it was in 2e, but I have modified the coastline on the right 'leg' somewhat (because this was originally from another project), and also the 'cut' up the middle goes deeper. It just gives us more room, is all. Also, the scale might be a little off - I just took it directly from the FRIA maps, but I didn't double-check it like I usually do (I will, but I was in a rush to post something).

I need to add cliffs, and all those watch towers in the north as well. Like i said, its just a WIP.

Cheers



Hey, Markustay, where your map ends is where my map roughly begins for Lopango and Katashaka (and my Lopango is mostly based on Seethyr's Lopango except I added the southern coast). Without adding all the settlements (i.e. just showing rough jungle, mountains, hills, coastline, etc..) how hard would it be to add the below picture into that. I ask, because I'd really like to have a picture showing my 5 tharchs (Balduran Bay, Esh Alakar, Lopango, Western Pridelands, and New Eltabbar) on one map showing Anchorome, Maztica, and Katashaka. Oh, and if you did do that... of course, would you allow me to use it (and I don't ask that lightly) on DM's Guild. In fact, if you did make that... might I recommend you put said map up for sale on DM's guild for people to use with products. I know I'd pay you for its use.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BaBOJG1juoejA88H5PBZ9UJqSMDylTOT/view?usp=sharing

Oh, and btw, as I've said before, I'm putting something basically saying my maps are not perfect and are "the imperfect work of multiple cartographers trying to map the changes as a result of the sundering".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Jan 2018 03:40:01
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sleyvas
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  03:31:43  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
BTW, Seethyr, relooking at that map brings out a question I've been wanting to ask you for about a year, but I never saw you around. In your Maztica campaign guide, you put your copy of the map, and it shows more of Lopango. As you can see from the above, I really worked the edges of what you didn't show (although I did put a city named Zanzilaha at the end of the river running through the Lopango... but it was too perfect spot to pass up), but I had noted that you put some city called Barth down on the tip of Lopango. I had no plans for Barth, but I was curious if you did. I didn't see anything about it in the product.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  03:50:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
and what the hell... here's the two maps I was making for what I was doing up in the City of Gold area (Esh Alakar) and the FortFlame/Balduran Bay areas. The main change I made to Esh Alakar is that the red wizards in this area spent the last century working glass to learn the secret of glassteel (and they're still not great at it). However, a lot of the cast off glass was used to "line" the bottom of what the red wizards have turned into a reservoir and they use weather magic to keep it filled. They call this the great glass lake and newer generations of Azuposi, Nahopaca, and Metahel have come to the "City on the Great Glass Lake" to learn valuable skills and crafts. Fort Flame on the other hand never had hardly anything to fill it out as to terrain, so I just made stuff up.


Balduran Bay
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ROPwAjXYva965IBRercxqIDNWal-bXKD/view?usp=sharing

Esh Alakar
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xXW69Wkz34QpGWZjmXrtUOjYk9NtYuiJ/view?usp=sharing

P.S. if you can't tell, the Esh Alakar was my first map where I was learning. Part of me wants to redo it, but the other part says "no time, this works". Esh Alakar is also my smallest tharch, since they only control Esh Alakar, two Azuposi villages near Esh Alakar, the Halfling lands, and the City on the Great Glass Lake (which was in a desert that no one wanted, but was a great source of sand).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 03 Jan 2018 04:00:27
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  04:52:53  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, you can use this map for whatever you want. Just credit me in anything you publish. There will be a better version soon. I really want to do maps that can become the 'DMs Guild standard', so that stuff from one person doesn't conflict with others (in other words, no matter who's product it is, the maps should all work cohesively together).

I also have a Katashaka map that starts where this one ends - I blended all the Xendrik locales into it (so Xendrik becomes a 'jungle demi-plane', or rather, the locales IN Xendrik are part of some other transitive plane, like a jungle variant of the Feywild... heck... it could even BE the Feywild). This, just like places in the Feywild and Shadowfell that can 'appear on any world at any given time', so do the Xendrik locales (in my homebrewed version). It actually makes some sense, in regards to Eberron canon - X'endrik is in constant 'geographic flux'. A place that took you two weeks to reach the last time might only take 1/2 a day this time... or might not even be there.

I also added something... else... by adjusting part of the coast. It was an excellent fit, both environment-wise, and lore-wise. I'm going with an official 'any similarities between my version of Katashaka and some other setting is purely coincidental'.
So long as I don't include specific locales, I should be okay. That map is not yet fit for consumption.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2018 04:55:05
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sleyvas
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  13:24:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yes, you can use this map for whatever you want. Just credit me in anything you publish. There will be a better version soon. I really want to do maps that can become the 'DMs Guild standard', so that stuff from one person doesn't conflict with others (in other words, no matter who's product it is, the maps should all work cohesively together).

I also have a Katashaka map that starts where this one ends - I blended all the Xendrik locales into it (so Xendrik becomes a 'jungle demi-plane', or rather, the locales IN Xendrik are part of some other transitive plane, like a jungle variant of the Feywild... heck... it could even BE the Feywild). This, just like places in the Feywild and Shadowfell that can 'appear on any world at any given time', so do the Xendrik locales (in my homebrewed version). It actually makes some sense, in regards to Eberron canon - X'endrik is in constant 'geographic flux'. A place that took you two weeks to reach the last time might only take 1/2 a day this time... or might not even be there.

I also added something... else... by adjusting part of the coast. It was an excellent fit, both environment-wise, and lore-wise. I'm going with an official 'any similarities between my version of Katashaka and some other setting is purely coincidental'.
So long as I don't include specific locales, I should be okay. That map is not yet fit for consumption.



Any chance we could get you to leave off the Katashaka piece then if you're developing your own and add the Lopango without all my settlement stuff (it roughly stays true to what Seethyr drew up, though I won't claim our rivers or coastline exactly match... plus it roughly matches to the "Scholar's View of Toril" map from 3e). It would mostly be jungle with some mountain ranges at the bottom. I have no idea.

BTW, if you haven't looked at his Maztica stuff yet, do so, its free and pretty good. That's where I'm looking at his map from.

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/171534/TWC1-The-Maztica-Campaign-Guide?filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0_0_0

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 03 Jan 2018 :  20:43:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Once again, I did this map by request. I have very little interest in Maztica. If I ever run FR again (and I just don't see that at the moment - if my current post-Apocalypse campaign ends I'll probably move to steampunk... normal fantasy bores me now), I would simply use Sammarach and add the flavors I want.

However, I'll take a look at the Katashaka map I was working on a few weeks ago and see if I can get it finished eneough to post a WIP. It doesn't look all that different than canon Katashaka (and since canon Katashaka has almost zero internal details, only the coastal outline actually becomes any sort of problem). The maps are sized to fit on 8½ x 11 page. They are what they are. resizing anything after the fact makes them look like crap, so I won't do that.

However, I think it only shows the lowest part of Lopango, so I am still missing the whole middle section there. I'll go check now.

EDIT: just had a look, and its sized completely different (different scales), but it does show MUCH more than I remembered. It was never meant to show the level of detail the Maztica map does.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jan 2018 20:46:04
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  00:15:26  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Seethyr - do you have a version of your map with better resolution? I can barely read that map.

Nevermind - Found one.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 00:25:01
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Seethyr
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  00:20:30  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

@Seethyr - do you have a version of your map with better resolution? I can barely read that map.



Yeah, that was one of the biggest complaints I’ve gotten about the campaign guide in general. I’m going to rummage around and see if I can find my source. I’ll PM you ASAP.

EDIT: Found it - DZA allowed me to use it way back in 2013 or so (from the Paizo boards). Here it is on his DA page.

https://mrharbuck.deviantart.com/art/Maztica-Nimbral-and-Chult-344554089

All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide

Newest Addition: TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

Also, please come join us on the Maztica Alive Yahoo Group:
Join Us

Edited by - Seethyr on 04 Jan 2018 00:24:45
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  00:26:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL - As I was editing my above post, you posted a response.

Trying to adapt my Katashaka map to show southern Maztica (Lopango).

EDIT:
Just reread Brian James' old Age of Sail CKC9 article, and I am now really wanting to add-in Ed's Eskember lore. I was thinking about just adding them into my own 'Punjabbi islands' (from the same issue of CKC), which I've since renamed 'punjaffi' (still not great, but I wanted to keep it close to my original) - I figure the Zakharans named them that, since I have it where they are active in those waters (I had adapted a bunch of lore from 3e's Nyambe for Katashaka, and my article and maps reflect that).

Except thats the wrong spot for them. Although the name "Anchoromé" has been repurposed by both Brian and I for the chain of islands running along the north of the map (that eventually lead into the Northmen islands west of Icewind Dale), the lore from Ed's Anchoromé should be applied much further south, and even further south than he had intended (because Maztica never existed in his Realms), but not so far south as to put them off the coast of Katashaka, so now I am thinking they really should be west of Maztica and south of Evermeet, right around where the Compass rose is on that map I just linked above (so right in the middle there between Lantan and The Green Sisters in Maztica).

Which makes the Maztica lore a little strange, but oh well. The way I have my own material (outlined in my CKC article on The Sea Gates), it works out fine with that, and since Maztica was discovered well over a century ago at this point, we can fudge the heck out of stuff. Maybe Ed's Anchoromé has really been in Abeir all along, and it came (back?) over with Larakond (it would have been just off the east coast), and unlike the rest of returned Abeir, it stayed behind. That works for me.

I am trying to have something showable by tonight, but the more I label and put in, the more I want to get done. This is why I never finish anything. {sigh}

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 04:19:13
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Seethyr
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  02:09:04  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I am trying to have something showable by tonight, but the more I label and put in, the more I want to get done. This is why I never finish anything. {sigh}



Really, really looking forward to it, but take your time. This is awesome, and I know one spot for certain that it's going to go...

On a completely unrelated note, I've also been working on a number of products. Both are majorly WIPs - they are in their earliest stages, but you might be able to use a monster or two from the first book. I'll include a little description of each.

TWC7 True World Bestiary III - Monsters I-Z

This is the third monster book for Maztica. As of now there are about half of the monsters statted and written up, but nowhere near completed. Still waiting on an artist to work out the visuals though I have my cover. Ignore the ToC for now, it's very broken.

TWR3 The Door of Stars

I'm very excited about this adventure even though I really only have a background done. This will be set in Huacli by the city-state of Otomi and will update the Mictlanec and Mictlaneca adventure from the original Maztica Boxed Set, it will include lore from Mechica in Dragon Magazine #70, allow for future crossovers with other settings that have a "Mesoamerican feel", and continue the True World Ressurection storyline. I'm in love with the cover art.



All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide

Newest Addition: TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

Also, please come join us on the Maztica Alive Yahoo Group:
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  04:30:48  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Doesn't look like tonight - when I pasted-in my Maztica map, I hadn't realized that the Katashaka map was using the canon Maztica coastal outline, so it didn't match-up. I now have to redraw those coasts on the Katashaka map to sync the two up (I can't just paste over things, because of the layers involved - fortunately I had already switched to a unified color palette before either of these were started).

Once I (eventually) add the Eskember stuff in, the entirety of the Trackless Sea becomes one ginormous pirate region (which is just fine in a world dedicated to adventure). In fact, its really not all that different than how our RW was between 1500's-1800's. Most folks don't realize the brand new U.S. navy had chased the real pirates all the way from our coasts to Africa, hence the line in the Marine hymn: "From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli". From the northern pirates of Luskan and the Northmen, to the Nelanther, across to the Eskember islands, down to my Punjaffi Islands, and on over to the new piece of coast I added into Katashaka (which is a heavy pirate area), on back east through that huge chain of islands extended westward from Zakhara, ending in the Corsair Islands.

You've heard of the 'Devil's Triangle'? Well, we've got the Marauder's Hexagon.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 04:44:21
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sleyvas
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  14:02:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Doesn't look like tonight - when I pasted-in my Maztica map, I hadn't realized that the Katashaka map was using the canon Maztica coastal outline, so it didn't match-up. I now have to redraw those coasts on the Katashaka map to sync the two up (I can't just paste over things, because of the layers involved - fortunately I had already switched to a unified color palette before either of these were started).

Once I (eventually) add the Eskember stuff in, the entirety of the Trackless Sea becomes one ginormous pirate region (which is just fine in a world dedicated to adventure). In fact, its really not all that different than how our RW was between 1500's-1800's. Most folks don't realize the brand new U.S. navy had chased the real pirates all the way from our coasts to Africa, hence the line in the Marine hymn: "From the Halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli". From the northern pirates of Luskan and the Northmen, to the Nelanther, across to the Eskember islands, down to my Punjaffi Islands, and on over to the new piece of coast I added into Katashaka (which is a heavy pirate area), on back east through that huge chain of islands extended westward from Zakhara, ending in the Corsair Islands.

You've heard of the 'Devil's Triangle'? Well, we've got the Marauder's Hexagon.



Except when pirates disappear in there, half the time its because sahuagin ate them. Piracy on the high seas of Toril may just be a dangerous thing.

Kind of an aside to that particular thing.... off of the Fort Flame/Balduran Bay area was believed to be a sahuagin community. With the red wizards and magic to make people able to breathe water, I've actually thought it might make a tradition of actually hunting sahuagin, and bringing back the bodies of sahuagin and sharks to eat. Grilled sahuagin is a delicacy for the rich, and those poor fishermen who kill a sahuagin may just "act rich" by eating some sahuagin for themselves.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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Posted - 04 Jan 2018 :  17:23:55  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Red Wizard Water-breathing magic, you say?

I'm surprised you haven't created an underwater Tharch.

But I am aware of a huge Sahuagin presence in the region - I mention them in my one CKC article (CKC9 - "The Sea Gates"). They have a very powerful kingdom in the Lopango Sea (that body of water between Maztica and Katashaka). I also included an ancient, still-operating Batrachi Gate there (in fact, ALL the gates in my article were of Batrachi origins, although some have been modified over the years), so that kingdom is probably existing in a sunken Batrachi city. When the Merman of the Trackless sea want to interact with their 'cousins' - the Ningyo - over in the Eastern Ocean, they ask seafarers to ride on their ships through the region, because they can't make it through by swimming - the kingdom is at least as powerful as Kurrimal/Aleaxtis over in the Alaber sea, and probably more-so.

There is also a growing population of weresharks along the Katashakan coast.

The Beiy'Maar - from my same CKC article - originated in the eastern ocean, but they've been spreading out into the Western Ocean and Trackless Sea. The Zakharans were at first concerned they'd be looking to settle in that massive island chain to their west (The Fara'sahad Islands), but the Beiy'Maar are content to stay on their ships (they are 'sea folk' - they do not have gills, but they do have webbed fingers and toes, and can 'hold their breath' for at least one hour at a time, as well as survive depths greater than humans can normally tolerate). They also have overly large, elf-like eyes, and pointy ears that have a swept-back, bat-wing like shape to them (in which they wear lots of jewelry). Rumor has it their settlements are actually vast floating platforms, but since they are so mobile and secretive, no non-Beiy'Maar has ever been to one. They had started to become an uncommon, but not unknown, site in Waterdeep, and as of the 'modern era' (post-Sundering), they visit ports all up and down the Sword Coast and along the Great Sea in the Shining South. If I further develop my Carribean-like island region, they will be one of the more interesting groups I do (they are very active in that area - they are naturally drawn to islands, because of their own dual nature). They've become very good friends with the folk of the Mokaloni (mahk-A-loni), with whom they feel a strange kinship (formerly the Wakaloni islands in my article and on my maps).

Modified Art of how I picture a female Stormcaller (Priestess).

And let us not forget the The sharktopus!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jan 2018 18:08:14
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