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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
945 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  06:03:04  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From a logical viewpoint, it would be illogical that Abeir would not have Maztica in some form (and that also apply to the other exchanged lands, like Halruaa or Lantan). If we took 4e edition into account, Toril changed Laerakond (Returned Abeir), because of the nature of both worlds. And, you have to take into account that dragonborn and other 4e changes, for good or for ill, are still a part of Forgotten Realms in 5e.

I know, however, that some stuff in 4e has hated because of how it was implemented into the setting (heavy-handed instead of organically integrated), and I'm working my stuff with that point in mind.

However, if we want a logical approach, Abeir is harsh world (even gods fear to be there... is so hard, that a tyrant like Gilgeam was a good guy while on there). So, that is another stuff I've taken into account while working on my stuff.

So, beyond the novellete, you didn't worked any other idea of Maztica while on Abeir, right? That gives me a lot of freedom to not contradict your stuff.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 07 Dec 2017 06:05:24
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte

Germany
14 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  07:03:14  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Anyway, I've been slowly working out my ideas on this topic for a little over a year. I've made a map of my various tharchs and another map of Lopango/Katashaka at the below two links. The Lopango/Katashaka map is big, so you'll have to download and zoom in for the detail.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CYc8h_6sg8YVJTU1FxbVhSWmc

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j0PKC14gdwIsK6abqNXs-7JozIsTrFJC/view?usp=sharing



Personally, I disagree with the notion that the continent south of Maztica is Katashaka - the story on page 30 of the Grand History of the Realms states that the Tabaxi are traveling northward from Katashaka until they finally reached Chult. Thus, I am going to assume that Katashaka is that small island continent further to the east, and the South Continent is yet unnamed.

A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14901 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  09:43:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, if you look under the entry for the Chultans in Races of Faerûn, it specifically says they came form a "large island to the south". Katashaka is NOT an island - its a continent.

I've actually been looking-up NON-Maztican Aztec-like D&D sources the past few days, to fill-in my new version of Sammarach. Found a couple of old, interesting adventures (one where the Aztec-like people worship Tefnut, of all things), and also some stuff from the Mystara (Hollow World) setting I plan to pilfer. That way, my Chultan psuedo-Aztecs will have some differences from the Mazticans.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte

Germany
14 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  10:02:50  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But the Grant History of the Realms does state they came from Katashaka. Which is large enough to qualify as an "island continent".

A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting!
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6491 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  12:35:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



Hi, I've looked over your stuff and I've been trying to work around where you've gone because I really liked some of it. Since you can utilize portions of other folks work if you reference it, I was planning to reference your work. In particular, I liked what you did with Lopango (except for the sorcerer orcs... I kept them, but they were forced to stay away from my tharchs), and the southern coast of the Lopango has become a "tharch" in the "United Tharchs of Toril" that formed over in Abeir. I tried to specifically stay where your map didn't go. I then also expanded some "tharch" into Northern Katashaka.

Anyway, I've been slowly working out my ideas on this topic for a little over a year. I've made a map of my various tharchs and another map of Lopango/Katashaka at the below two links. The Lopango/Katashaka map is big, so you'll have to download and zoom in for the detail.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CYc8h_6sg8YVJTU1FxbVhSWmc

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j0PKC14gdwIsK6abqNXs-7JozIsTrFJC/view?usp=sharing

The one major thing I did differently was that I actually had many of the deities that disappeared actually show up in Abeir as basically avatars like those in the ToT (sharing a human's body), and eventually through faith energy they formed a "normal" avatar / manifestation. But, essentially, many of the gods were in Abeir in physical form and seen by the people.... including Ubtao/Qotal. There was no silent period in which the gods were unavailable. HOWEVER, priests had to sacrifice heavily to regain spells via the system in "Priestess: Ancient World Divine Class", which I also planned to reference (below for link).

http://www.dmsguild.com/product/192760/Priestess-Ancient-World-Divine-Class?term=priestess&test_epoch=0


My main focus at present has moved to the tharch of peleveran and finishing up the overview document of all the tharchs, but work and life get in the way. Still, I'm always interested in talking with folks for their ideas.




I'm very interested in your developments. Lopango might have been the most fun I have had in developing a project because of the relative lack of canon that I had to adhere to. Even as obscure as Maztica is, I had to find bits of lore hidden in over a dozen books - sometimes only a paragraph.

One of the projects is a (shameless ripoff ) Grand History that only applies to the True World. If you work your own material for Lopango that doesn't conflict with the already developed lore, I would love to include it in this book as I update it.

History of the True World



Yeah, I don't get into the deep history of the "Tharch of Lopango" other than having exiled red wizards travelling to there just prior to the Spellplague FROM the future "Tharch of Esh Alakar" and setting up a couple small villages/cities. Said "Tharch of Esh Alakar" was formed as a trade enclave by exiled red wizards from the future "Tharch of Balduran Bay" (prior to the spellplague, just a new trade enclave near Fort Flame).

Basically, my concept consists of Mulan red wizards forming up several tharchs throughout the world while on Abeir with the aid of other displaced people

displaced Chessentans and Untheric people from portions of transferred western Chessenta help form the Tharch of Peleveran.

displaced peoples of Samarach, Thindol, and Tashalar help fill Balduran Bay after the transfer via a portal from trade enclaves setup there. Balduran Bay also has a LOT of different goblinoid type races as slaves, as the red wizards were buying them up and shipping them over to this area to clear it (and using the dead ones to make undead ones).

Esh Alakar starts incorporating peoples from the Poscadar basin <Metahel in particular, Azuposi, Nahopaca, short ones, desert dwarves> while also having issues with others (and bringing in centaurs and gnolls). They basically capture esh alakar and then capture the surrounding land of the short ones and I think it was two villages of Azuposi just to the immediate south. Later they build a city in the desert that's dependent on magic for its water.

Lopango brings red wizards/Mulans, Metahel and Azuposi (and some other humanoids) south to discover the secrets of "the land of fire" and along the way picks up some Tezca worshipping people of Kolan and some sun worshipping Naticans. Eventually there's a falling out because some Mulans want to stay racially pure, and others are breeding with these other races. The ones who want to remain racially pure head south and found two more tharchs in Katashaka over time.

Its in Katashaka that like you I feel I have a pretty free hand to develop, and what I started writing up there was a culture that's all beast humanoids (catfolk, dogfolk, rodentfolk, birdfolk of various sorts, rhinofolk, yakmen, minotaurs, gnolls, frogfolk, batfolk, lizardfolk, apefolk, etc... in both tauric and two legged forms and different variations). There are no elves, dwarves, halflings, humans, goblinoids, etc... with the exception of some remnants of some orcs that were enslaved. The difference in the two tharchs of Esh Alakar is that one is essentially struggling to survive by becoming friendly with the natives and trading with them and turning to farming. The other is smaller, but they've conquered their territory and they live like lords.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6491 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  12:45:30  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jürgen Hubert

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Anyway, I've been slowly working out my ideas on this topic for a little over a year. I've made a map of my various tharchs and another map of Lopango/Katashaka at the below two links. The Lopango/Katashaka map is big, so you'll have to download and zoom in for the detail.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B8CYc8h_6sg8YVJTU1FxbVhSWmc

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1j0PKC14gdwIsK6abqNXs-7JozIsTrFJC/view?usp=sharing



Personally, I disagree with the notion that the continent south of Maztica is Katashaka - the story on page 30 of the Grand History of the Realms states that the Tabaxi are traveling northward from Katashaka until they finally reached Chult. Thus, I am going to assume that Katashaka is that small island continent further to the east, and the South Continent is yet unnamed.



And America was "the Indies". Either way, the big continent that most of us have called Katashaka may get named that by the people that go there, and the people there may call it an entire other name. However, its easy to have the southern thing still apply. Nothing says the Tabaxi came from the tippy top of that continent. Nor does anything say that their language had the concept of "continent" versus "large island". They may think every land surrounded by water is an island.... and they may think such because they've ventured into other planes where there is no water and nothing but land. Or they may have lived on what is considered a "large island" just off the coast of Katashaka's eastern side... which maybe isn't all that large in the grand scheme of things.

In the end, its what we make of it, and the one thing I've been trying to do is not interfere with other people's work and incorporate what I feel is the general consensus of where some want things to go (I fully admit I may be missing the mark for some though... the one thing I do that seems to be contentious is the idea that gods were on Abeir during the spellplague... but I'm picturing the gods having to act somewhat like primordials there... being there in real form. The other is that I want to include magic while there, but I think we've been slowly working that method out).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Dec 2017 12:48:58
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14901 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  19:21:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jürgen Hubert

But the Grant History of the Realms does state they came from Katashaka. Which is large enough to qualify as an "island continent".

Except that in Brian James' original version of the GHotR the maps SHOW Katashaka to be that continent, and since Brian named the place, and says thats katashaka, I'm inclned to think its... Katashaka.

On my own maps (which are less canonical than Brian's obviously), I have named that large island 'Tabaxiland', just because of the entry in RoF. I chalk the misinformation in the published GHotR as a 'scholarly error' by sages from Faerûn, who are certainly no experts on regions beyond the main continent (which also includes the Kara-Tur, Hordelands, Zakhara, and Malatra sub-settings). They may even consider the nearby islands as part of the 'Katashaka continent', in much the same way many of the island chains were once considered part of the Australian continent (which was confusing, which is why they renamed the continent several other names, none of which seems to have 'stuck' - Australinea is probably best, IMO). Thus, the 'great minds of the Realms' can be both correct, and incorrect, depending on how you look at things.

I personally prefer the Chultans be from Tabaxiland (the large island), or BETTER YET, from Chult itself (but that ship has sailed). I think 'Katashaka' should be left empty, for individual DMs to flesh-out with their own material. Attaching that stray bit of lore to the place may interfere with that (if, suppose, the DM wanted it to be a place without humans - some other race{s} may be the dominant sentient lifeform).

And truly ideally, we should steal Xendrik from Eberron, or just say 'the Spellplagued copied it' (we have precedents for that in D&D). Elminster's been there, so its really not much of a stretch (and that way, we could always say the online version of it was 'in two worlds'). In fact, having it be 'caught between worlds' might make for some good adventure-fodder.

As for Maztica itself (the subject of the thread), I've decided not to merge Returned Abeir with 2e Maztica. I actually decided that a LONG time ago - 'saving' something just to have it somewhere no-one will use it is an exercise in futility. Instead, I've spread Laerakond out along the Chultan arm, where it fits nicely, albeit snugly. Thus, Maztica is free to be developed any way DMs (and you guys) like, based upon the original version of it; not some hodgepodge I come up with.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I've actually been looking-up NON-Maztican Aztec-like D&D sources the past few days, to fill-in my new version of Sammarach. Found a couple of old, interesting adventures (one where the Aztec-like people worship Tefnut, of all things), and also some stuff from the Mystara (Hollow World) setting I plan to pilfer. That way, my Chultan psuedo-Aztecs will have some differences from the Mazticans.
The adventure I plan to place there is 2e's Swamplight. I haven't finished reading through it, and its a tad bit wonky (like Tefnut in an Aztec-like region), but the premise is solid. I AM considering changing the 'big bad' (from raksasha) to something else, but perhaps not. Its idiosyncrasies are part of its charm.

Here is the cover-art from that adventure - not too shabby for 2e, eh?

EDIT:
And going through the other source I am using - Sons of Azca, I find that one of the two immortals that saved their culture and preserved it (in 'another world') was Kalaktatla - sounds LOT like Katashaka, no? I wonder if that's just a coincidence.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Dec 2017 06:57:54
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2017 :  01:28:36  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Updated adventure - not terribly far from completion...

TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide

Newest Addition: TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

Also, please come join us on the Maztica Alive Yahoo Group:
Join Us
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2017 :  04:31:44  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finished the Sea Demon's Pearl and have been working on what will amount to a very short project that already has a solid base.

Going to try to work out something for the Maztican Ball Game that was described in the original Maztica Boxed Set.

I'll try to include a little history behind the game (will post this intro below), rules of the game (already worked out and playtested by HooverDam of the Piazza), make some sample teams, create some rewards (for possibly a big nationwide tournament in one of the regions), etc. Actually, if you have any thoughts on something else that could be added, I am all ears.

Here's the intro...

THE BALL GAME

The Maztican ball game has existed for hundreds, if not a thousand or more years in the True World. None know who actually invented the game but all are certain that its origin was in one of the city-states of Huacli. The game’s true name is Pokolpok, whose origin is actually from the dead language Téenek. Téenek was last spoken in its pure form over 1,000 years ago in Huacli, though words and phrases can still be found in the modern language.
The Nexalans were the first to popularize the game and they gave it the name Ollamaliztli which is the most commonly used name today, though in Payit, “tlachtli” has also maintained some popularity. In their ignorance and difficulty with the Nexalan inflection, the newcomers from Faerun called the game poke-a-tok, a derivative of the Téenek name, but those who use this name today are often ridiculed.

SIGNIFICANCE OF OLLAMALIZTLI
___________________________________________

The Maztican ball game has grown in popularity and changed its rules into many forms. It has held religious significance, and both its winners and losers have been the subjects of sacrifice to the gods in varying locations and times.
Plutoq is known to favor the game, and his more bloodthirsty priests tended to lead the ceremonies of sacrifice in the past. Typically, Plutoq’s priests only sacrificed the willing winners of major tournaments that often lasted many years in Huacli and the participants were considered honored and guaranteed a place by Plutoq’s side in the afterlife.
Plutoq is even rumored to have taken the form of a human in the past to observe or even participate in the game. Strangers are known to be treated like royalty in Otomi in particular if they demonstrate exceptional natural talent. After all, they could always be the mountain god in disguise.
Zaltec, not to be outdone, used the game in Nexal and Kultaka as an excuse to slaughter. In almost direct opposition to Plutoq’s tournaments, only the best players or teams avoided the ministrations of the obsidian blade.
Kiltzi and to a lesser extent Qotal look upon the game favorably as its outcomes have often been used to settle local disputes peacefully in the past.

All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide

Newest Addition: TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

Also, please come join us on the Maztica Alive Yahoo Group:
Join Us

Edited by - Seethyr on 13 Dec 2017 04:33:53
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 22 Dec 2017 :  02:15:34  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Finished. This one turned out to be a heck of a lot more fun to write than I expected. Playing the game was fun too with my test group. The fluff around the mechanics, I just hope you enjoy.

TWR2 The Maztican Ball Game

All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide

Newest Addition: TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

Also, please come join us on the Maztica Alive Yahoo Group:
Join Us
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14901 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  02:56:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So as I am futzing around with Maztica, I can't help but wondering - how could any of those Faerûnian enclaves survive when Maztica went to Abeir? Clearly, the natives have them out-numbered, and without any sort of back-up from Faerûn (like supplies and manpower), it would be only a matter of time before 'the natives get restless'.

Plus, there was no Helm for over a century. And not just because they went to Abeir - he was dead, as far as I know. So why would 'Helmsport' still be a thing? At the very least, I think they would have renamed it (if the settlement even survived). If the locals didn't kill them all, I would imagine the different groups all became one while Maztica was 'on holiday'. Maybe an Abeiran dragon tried to take the place over? And the humans (and other Humankin, including maybe even drow) would have had to work together to keep from getting taken over? Also, I think something interesting should have 'come back' with them. Not sure yet.... maybe that dragon?

Also, according to my calculations from a decade ago, only 'Maztica proper' needed to be swapped-out. The lands to north (Anchoromé?) and the lands to the south (Lopango) should have remained put. That means a lot of natives never went anywhere (the ones to the south especially - they never even interacted with the Faerûnians, as far as I know). And all the stuff from City of Gold maps should have remained, and probably at least Balduran, which was far to the north.

I'm just not seeing the newly-established settlements being able to keep their separate identity when Maztica went to Abeir. Especially when we consider the possibility that Hishna and Pluma magic may have not only worked in Abeir, they may have worked BETTER.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2017 07:36:34
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Zeromaru X
Senior Scribe

Colombia
945 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  05:27:00  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So as I am futzing around with Maztica, I can't help but wondering - how could any of those Faerûnian enclaves survive when Maztica went to Abeir? Clearly, the natives have them out-numbered, and without any sort of back-up from Faerûn (like supplies and manpower), it would be only a matter of time before 'the natives get restless'.


I dunno the approach Jurgen has about this. In Seethyr's Maztica alive project, however, most Faerunians were killed by religious extremist, and the few survivors got absorbed by miscegenation.


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Plus, there was no Helm for over a century. And not just because they went to Abeir - he was dead, as far as I know. So why would 'Helmsport' still be a thing? At the very least, I think they would have renamed it (if the settlement even survived).


I stole Jurgen's Ulatos-Dragonport idea. Basically, a dragon from Abeir took control of the place, and the populace rename it "Dragonport", because Helm was dead and was unpopular, so people decided to please the dragon. You can later kill the dragon, but the name stuck nonetheless.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

If the locals didn't kill the all, i would imagine the different groups all became one while Maztica was 'on holiday'. Maybe an Abeiran dragon tried to take the place over? And the humans (and other Humankin, including maybe even drow) would have had to work together to keep from getting taken over? Also, I think something interesting should have 'come back' with them. Not sure yet.... maybe that dragon?


I have an idea of a few Abeiran dragons trying to conquer Maztica, with armies of slaves and such, so dragonborn and genasi are thing in my version of Maztica. Jurgen has a similar idea, but in his all dragons are dead (or nearly all). In mine, a few dragons survived and are still there in current post-Sundering Maztica. Including the most powerful of all, that is an evil gold dragon.

That also means that a minority of dragonborn and abeiran genasi are now a permanent population of my version of Maztica.

I'm working of a timeline of events that happened in Maztica while on Abeir.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte

Germany
14 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  07:35:05  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So as I am futzing around with Maztica, I can't help but wondering - how could any of those Faerûnian enclaves survive when Maztica went to Abeir? Clearly, the natives have them out-numbered, and without any sort of back-up from Faerûn (like supplies and manpower), it would be only a matter of time before 'the natives get restless'.


The answer for my "Returned Maztica" project is: "They largely don't, but some of their influences still persist."

The Amnish families in Payit become one more noble lineage with a unique shared background, but they lost much of their influence. The colonies of New Waterdeep, Tythosford, and (eventually) Balduran get gradually taken over by Kultaka as part of their nascent empire. Since the Kultakans do value their expertise, this takeover is for the most part peaceful, and their descendants tend to dominate the powerful Craftsmen's Guilds that provide advanced technology for the Empire.

quote:
Plus, there was no Helm for over a century. And not just because they went to Abeir - he was dead, as far as I know. So why would 'Helmsport' still be a thing? At the very least, I think they would have renamed it (if the settlement even survived). If the locals didn't kill the all, i would imagine the different groups all became one while Maztica was 'on holiday'. Maybe an Abeiran dragon tried to take the place over? And the humans (and other Humankin, including maybe even drow) would have had to work together to keep from getting taken over? Also, I think something interesting should have 'come back' with them. Not sure yet.... maybe that dragon?


"Dragons took over" is precisely what happened in "Returned Maztica" - and they brought along clans of Dragonborn as administrator as well as genasi as slaves (using the old "divide and conquer" strategy of all successful empires - if the various ethnic groups spend most of their time resenting each other, they won't have as much energy left attempting to target the actual rulers).

However, shortly before the Sundering/Return of Maztica all but two of the dragon overlords were overthrown, and thus Maztica is now entering a "post-colonial" phase. And as anyone who has studied post-colonial period in our world knows, these are rarely peaceful - while the tyrants are gone, the tensions they created are still very much alive...

quote:
Also, according to my calculations from a decade ago, only 'Maztica proper' needed to be swapped-out. The lands to north (Anchoromë?) and the lands to the south (Lopango) should have stayed. That means a lot of natives never went anywhere (the ones to the south especially - they never even interacted with the Faerûnians, as far as I know). And all the stuff from City of Gold should have remained, and probably at least Balduran, which was far to the north.


Since Anchorome was never mentioned in any of the Laekarond/Returned Abeir material, I decided to have it accompany Maztica to Abeir - and the South Continent as well, for good measure.

quote:
I'm just not seeing the newly-established settlements being able to keep their separate identity when Maztica went to Abeir. Especially when we consider the possibility that Hishna and Pluma magic may have not only worked in Abeir, they may have worked BETTER.



In "Returned Maztica" I assumed that there was some healthy cross-fertilization with a colony of Lantanese exiles (after all, Lantan did accompany Maztica to Abeir). Both Hishnashapers and Plumaweavers should be considered specializations of the Artificer class (game mechanics are still pending).

A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
Doomed Slayers - my social analysis of adventurers. Also, a fantasy setting!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14901 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  07:56:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anchormé AND Katashaka going to Abeir? Thats a bit much. All we got was tiny little Laerakond. However, I can work that into some of what I am also doing with Katashaka (merging it with Xendrik... but not really. It's... complicated).

I guess we were thinking alike with the dragons moving in on Maztica in Abeir. I was only picturing one with any sort of major 'nations' to speak of, but I suppose if a second took over human settlements that could also work (my latest map has added a bit of terrain to the right 'leg' of Maztica - more room to play with, and easily explainable by all the world-shifting).

As I said, I'm just not seeing Balduran going anywhere, which would make it the only Faerûnian enclave left in the west. However, I also had an idea for Anchoromé = making it more like Ed's original, which was a mega-archipelago. Whereas the water-levels dropped in the Inner Sea, the water levels rose in the outer seas (blame Global warming... too many Minotaur kingdoms popping up all over the place).
So the sea levels rose, and Anchrome was mostly at sea level (except for a few mountains chains), so now it looks more like a 'shattered' continent instead of a 'solid' one. This gives us back the original vibe Ed was going for, and we still get to keep that continent (basically) that the FRIA added in. (and was later repeated in the 3e FRCS). Balduran should just be on one of the remaining large islands.

But that's How I would spin things. Everyone's going to have their own ideas for 'returned Maztica'.

Oh, and I had an idea for super-dragonborn also coming back with it. Basically, tiefling Dragonborn (except tieflings are a race now, so maybe cambions? Helltouched?) Anyhow, you get the idea - dragonborn/fiend hybrids. so flying, fire-breathing dragonborn (did Draconians breath fire? I hope I didn't just reinvent Draconians!) Maybe one of those dragons was of the fiendish variety (but knowing as little about Abbeir and 4e lore as i did, I don't know if fiends had all that much interaction with Abeir). A fiendish dragon-queen... I think I also reinvented Tiamat.

EDIT:
Ya know, spinning Maztica as some sort of meso-American version of Krynn/Ansalon might not be all that crazy an idea. We even already have local 'Knightly Orders' that can take the place of Dragonlance's. It would be like merging DL and Savage Worlds. Dragonspear - a new setting brought to you by the people who gave you Dragonlance. You know that iconic picture of the Dragonknights on the back of dragons for DL? We could have one with a Jaguar Knight riding a pterodactyl (or wyvern).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2017 08:08:26
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Jürgen Hubert
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Germany
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Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  11:30:14  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Anchormé AND Katashaka going to Abeir? Thats a bit much. All we got was tiny little Laerakond. However, I can work that into some of what I am also doing with Katashaka (merging it with Xendrik... but not really. It's... complicated).


I figured that the sojourn on Abeir was useful as an agent of change - which allowed me to transform Maztica, which was a thinly disguised pastiche of real world cultures into something more fantastic that stood on its own terms (without neglecting its Mesoamerican roots). The same is true for Anchorome (aka "not-Precolumbian North America") and the South Continent (which I do not identify as Katashaka, as discussed elsewhere).

quote:
I guess we were thinking alike with the dragons moving in on Maztica in Abeir. I was only picturing one with any sort of major 'nations' to speak of, but I suppose if a second took over human settlements that could also work (my latest map has added a bit of terrain to the right 'leg' of Maztica - more room to play with, and easily explainable by all the world-shifting).


Each of the pre-Spellplague nations of Maztica still exists in Returned Maztica, but each has gone through significant changes due to its colonialist and post-colonial experiences:

- Payit: The first nation to be liberated, it now has to figure out whether it wants to be a real "nation" in a more modern sense or remain independent city-states - while navigating the tensions between its Maztican, Dragonborn, and Genasi inhabitants.
- Far Payit: Still ruled by a dragon, who now is rather nervous about the stability of her position and now has to figure out new ways of ruling her realm.
- Pezelac: Has become the land of giant cattle herds as well as their herders, and faces challenges from frequent incursions from the Shadowfell and the Feywild.
- Nexal: Ruled by the "Spawn of the Viperhand", the half-human descendants of the original Viperhand cultists, they once more seek glory in battle and captives for the altars of Zaltec.
- Kultaka: This nation aggressively expanded north in order to meet its tribute obligations to their dragon overlord and made use of every innovation they came across in order to modernize their military (including absorbing the other Faerunian colonies in the region) and are now becoming an empire in their own right that itches for a rematch with Nexal.
- Huacli: Its dragon overlord was presumed dead in the final battle before the Return, but it turned out he was not quite dead enough. He now lairs in Mictlatepec and is busy turning the region into the local equivalent of Mordor.
- Kolan: This nation is currently suffering from insurrection and guerrilla warfare between those who want to overthrow all tyrants and free all slaves (led by the city of Tukan) and those who would like to maintain the old social order with themselves at the top.
- Lopango: After what are possibly the biggest silver deposits in the world were found deep in its mountains, their wealth was jointly extracted by Dragonborn clans paying tribute to all the dragon rulers of Maztica. The price was suffering and slavery on a scale unimaginable before or since. Now that the dragon overlords are gone, the wealth is there for the taking for those powerful and ruthless enough to do so.

quote:
EDIT:
Ya know, spinning Maztica as some sort of meso-American version of Krynn/Ansalon might not be all that crazy an idea. We even already have local 'Knightly Orders' that can take the place of Dragonlance's. It would be like merging DL and Savage Worlds. Dragonspear - a new setting brought to you by the people who gave you Dragonlance. You know that iconic picture of the Dragonknights on the back of dragons for DL? We could have one with a Jaguar Knight riding a pterodactyl (or wyvern).



Ultimately, I had a different design goal - in particular, I wanted to echo the social, political, economical, and biological changes the Americans went through after the Columbian Exchange opened, but using the sojourn on Abeir to give them an even more fantastical spin. My primary source of inspiration was the book "1493: Uncovering the New World Columbus Created" which I highly recommend reading - you know a book is awesome when it mentions things like: "There were Japanese samurai in 17th century Mexico guarding silver shipments!"

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  13:29:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So as I am futzing around with Maztica, I can't help but wondering - how could any of those Faerûnian enclaves survive when Maztica went to Abeir? Clearly, the natives have them out-numbered, and without any sort of back-up from Faerûn (like supplies and manpower), it would be only a matter of time before 'the natives get restless'.

Plus, there was no Helm for over a century. And not just because they went to Abeir - he was dead, as far as I know. So why would 'Helmsport' still be a thing? At the very least, I think they would have renamed it (if the settlement even survived). If the locals didn't kill them all, I would imagine the different groups all became one while Maztica was 'on holiday'. Maybe an Abeiran dragon tried to take the place over? And the humans (and other Humankin, including maybe even drow) would have had to work together to keep from getting taken over? Also, I think something interesting should have 'come back' with them. Not sure yet.... maybe that dragon?

Also, according to my calculations from a decade ago, only 'Maztica proper' needed to be swapped-out. The lands to north (Anchoromé?) and the lands to the south (Lopango) should have remained put. That means a lot of natives never went anywhere (the ones to the south especially - they never even interacted with the Faerûnians, as far as I know). And all the stuff from City of Gold maps should have remained, and probably at least Balduran, which was far to the north.

I'm just not seeing the newly-established settlements being able to keep their separate identity when Maztica went to Abeir. Especially when we consider the possibility that Hishna and Pluma magic may have not only worked in Abeir, they may have worked BETTER.



I agree that the lands held by the Amnians would be hard pressed to remain to be held. Read Seethyr's stuff for Maztica from DM's Guild. He does not assume that they thrived. Now, the Waterdhavians, since they were on an island, might be able to survive. However, it would be interesting if the Amnians had to retreat to the island with the Waterdhavians. Also, Helmsport might be able to survive. The Amnian plantations and their owners though, I see failing.

However, also in my homebrew, certains gods transfer/are reborn to Abeir. The Metahel of the "City of Gold" for instance, I created a pseudo norse pantheon. In it is Hemdahl, Guardian of the Rainbow Staircase, He of the All-Seeing Eye, Defender of the Metahel, who would basically take up the role of Helm for Faerunians. So, the people of Helmsport may not be without a god. In fact, it may be something where in the couple years prior to the spellplague, there may be some interaction with a priest of the metahel and the people of Helmsport/New Waterdeep/Trythosford. BTW, personally, I know of no lore specifying this, but I'd make Trythos the paladin that founded Trythosford a follower of Tyr, and have him convert to the Metahel god Anachtar, Keeper of Blood Oaths, Lord of Conflict Resolution, Chainer of the Spirit-Wolf who is an obvious variation of Tyr.

Note: I could also see all of these retreating north to Balduran Bay/Fort Flame. The area is sparsely populated as is. In my Homebrew, I already have 3 groups from the Chultan peninsula evacuating to there via portal.

The problem with the lands north and south not going away is that there would have been interaction with them and Laerakond (they were too close for them to NOT have such), and there was none. Now, the question becomes "how much" of the lands to the north and south transferred. This is partly why I'm only exploring the upper third of Katashaka (the other reason is I just have no time). So, if half of Katashaka stayed... that being the lower half... it would be believable. The same could be said of Anchorome, though I'm assuming there that its most if not the whole thing..... though it could be fun maybe to have the most northerly reaches changing now that I think on it. Maybe the lands that held the majority of the Poscadari elves stayed. Maybe the same with the lands that belonged to the insect men, and maybe those two groups were separated by a vast gulf of water while anchorome was gone.

As we've discussed in the past, I'm planning on doing the same with Osse (i.e. leaving it unclear just WHAT transferred and what didn't), and I'm selecting certain sections of Zakhara to transfer (the isle of Sahu and the ruined kingdoms of Nog and Kadar for instance might be fun to send to Abeir for a century).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Dec 2017 13:47:03
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Markustay
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Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  16:54:10  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As I said, it looks like everyone is on a different page as far as Maztica is concerned (but borrowing bits from each other, which is what this sort of site is all about). For me, I'd keep it primarily the same, but with a major power boost. Something along the lines that they had a trapped primordial too (maybe more than one), and it was imprisoned in such a way that nearly all of its power was also sealed-off... but just enough got through to empower Pluma and/or Hishna magic (if you use two primordials, you can say the two types of magic had different sources). That explains why it was so underpowered. Then the place goes to Abeir, the primordial is still trapped but its Weave-based 'seals' are disrupted, and Pluma & Hishna magic come into their own. Then it comes back to Toril, and the seals still aren't restored, so Maztican magic users can now hold their own against Faerûnians. Something along those lines.

Here is a very ugly (and old) mock-up of what I felt was what happened. hopefully that link works right - I don't use Photobucket anymore because now its just a bucket of s.... stuff.

Laerakond appearing on Toril.

*You're going to have to hit 'open image in new tab' to see the whole thing - PB just keeps getting worse and worse. I really need to go through all the pics I have hosted there and put them somewhere else. Ignore Xendrik - I'm always sticking that in there. With my other conversion I won't have to anymore. Just because we didn't hear about Returned Abeir interacting with other parts of the world doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I would definitely turn 'new & improved' Zaltec into Zehir, if for no other reason than to keep things consistent with 4e/5e. I'm not saying they were always the same - just saying Zehir is now posing as Zaltec (it needs to be tied to Faerûn and the 4e/5e changes if Maztica is ever going to have any traction again). I wish I had time to do my own version, but I'm busy elsewhere, and I feel the Hordlands and Kara-Tur calling to me again (and the Utter East... and Erlkazar...) {sigh}

quote:
Originally posted by Jürgen Hubert

Kolan: This nation is currently suffering from insurrection and guerrilla warfare between those who want to overthrow all tyrants and free all slaves (led by the city of Tukan) and those who would like to maintain the old social order with themselves at the top.
If some of those guerrillas were actual gorillas, that would be freakin' amazing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2017 17:48:36
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Jürgen Hubert
Acolyte

Germany
14 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  20:48:51  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

As I said, it looks like everyone is on a different page as far as Maztica is concerned (but borrowing bits from each other, which is what this sort of site is all about). For me, I'd keep it primarily the same, but with a major power boost. Something along the lines that they had a trapped primordial too (maybe more than one), and it was imprisoned in such a way that nearly all of its power was also sealed-off... but just enough got through to empower Pluma and/or Hishna magic (if you use two primordials, you can say the two types of magic had different sources). That explains why it was so underpowered. Then the place goes to Abeir, the primordial is still trapped but its Weave-based 'seals' are disrupted, and Pluma & Hishna magic come into their own. Then it comes back to Toril, and the seals still aren't restored, so Maztican magic users can now hold their own against Faerûnians. Something along those lines.


I get what you mean about a "power boost". I mean, for the Cordell storyline they had to implement some reason why the native Mazticans lost so badly against the Golden Legion, and I can understand why they didn't want to go for "plagues of apocalyptic proportions" that real world Mesoamerican cultures suffered from. But "native magic was weaker than the invaders' magic" still left a sour taste with me.

For Returned Maztica, this is no longer an issue because:

- Native cultures learned wizard magic from the invaders.
- Sorcerers likewise exist among the natives.
- Warlocks got a big boost in social standing during the "Godless Time" (the sojourn on Abeir) since they essentially functioned as priests for many clans, with Archfey patrons becoming the most popular.
- Furthermore, the element of surprise is just plain gone - if someone else attempted to repeat the feats of the Golden Legions, they'd met with natives much more jaded at their abilities. After all, they survived and even triumphed against dragonfire, so mere mortals with shiny armor aren't going to impress them.

quote:
I would definitely turn 'new & improved' Zaltec into Zehir, if for no other reason than to keep things consistent with 4e/5e. I'm not saying they were always the same - just saying Zehir is now posing as Zaltec (it needs to be tied to Faerûn and the 4e/5e changes if Maztica is ever going to have any traction again).{sigh}

I feel no need to conflate Zaltec with other entities - he remains the Maztican god of warfare, and is worshiped widely once more (though not everyone worships him with human sacrifice). And I feel the best way of giving Maztica some traction is by making it a fascinating and fantastic sub-setting of the Forgotten Realms again - as a place that is fun to visit yet still remains recognizable as Mesoamerican in style.

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Jürgen Hubert

Kolan: This nation is currently suffering from insurrection and guerrilla warfare between those who want to overthrow all tyrants and free all slaves (led by the city of Tukan) and those who would like to maintain the old social order with themselves at the top.
If some of those guerrillas were actual gorillas, that would be freakin' amazing.




Wrong continent. ;)

Kolan is basically my excuse for introducing all sorts of "post-colonial" stories of rebellions and civil war from Latin American history.

Oh, and if you are interested in my Returned Maztica ideas, [url=http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=18770&sid=49415cdc47db942b26e95736660f18eb]this[/url] would be a good place for getting an overview.

A German Geek - my gaming blog
Returned Maztica Discussion Thread - my interpretation of the True World
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  21:47:09  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really believe that Maztica was a phenomenal idea, done wonderfully by Douglas Niles, but with some fatal flaws. Since I started with Maztica Alive, I’ve tried to hold as close to the original concept as I could but also fix those flaws. Reading dozens of forums and posts on the subject the complaints have been remarkably consistent.

1. Too underpowered
2. Followed RW history too closely
3. Wasn’t supported enough

I’ve tried to fix the under powering by redoing the classes and bringing them up to 5e rules with lore based (though not groundshaking in scope) reasons behind the growth. I think the colonialism RW problem fixed itself considering there were no more immigrants from Faerun for 100 years. Naturally, that could allow the culture to readjust back to itself.

The third problem is what is most important to me though. I have tried not to go terribly crazy with additions. I haven’t added primordials and dragon lords and such because As much as that is awesome stuff - it just didn’t seem Aztec/Maztica to me. I think little additions are fantastic in small doses - like an enclave of Dragonborn trying to find their place in this strange land. The ideas here are legion though and I absolutely love reading this. It’s like a factory for new material.

It’s a whole darn continent. There’s literally room for everything. And i think the reintroduction of Chult and it’s Lost World feel has tangentially struck up a resurgence in interest in the place. That is really awesome.

All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide

Newest Addition: TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

Also, please come join us on the Maztica Alive Yahoo Group:
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  22:20:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*Meh* - its fantasy. You can always say that some semi-intelligent 'Gorilla people' existed in Abeir and they emigrated into Maztica while it was there. There are at least four races of intelligent apes I can think of off-hand that are native to Toril (well, maybe not 'native', but 'present' - two are native to Kara-Tur).

As I said above, I don't really have the time to delve into any 'new areas' ATM. My comments here are just some bare-bones ideas I have. I'd never use the place myself, because anything I want I can make available 'closer to home' (which I am doing with my very mild Sammarach conversion). Katashaka is even worse - we already have Chult (and a dozen other jungle-regions) connected directly to Faerûn. The Shaar is already our Savannah-region, so we really don't need an 'Africa' (which is why I am converting it over to Xendrik... which is a demiplane... sort of). And despite me doing maps of both Katashaka and Maztica ATM (and perhaps Anchoromé just to 'complete the set'), I would never use them myself.

In fact, right now I am running a post-apocalyptic mash-up in North America (Walking Dead meets Fallout meets Defiance meets Mad Max meets Half-Life meets Thundarr meets The Terminator, etc., etc.). Magic, aliens, dragons, Undead, 'Atompunk' tech, Lovecraftian (and other) Horrors - I even have the Hunger Games up in Canada. Also throw-in some X-Files and Fringe to boot - there is absolutely no Conspiracy Theory that didn't turn out to be true.

So, I'm not even on Toril. Theoretically, though, the characters can wind up on Toril. That portal in Yellowstone still exists.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2017 22:25:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  22:46:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know what I found really weird - they did a Living Jungle campaign with resources and everything (more than we ever got for Chult), and they stuck that in Malatra (southern K-T), where no-one would ever bother using it. All that juicy goodness should have been repurposed for Chult, or Maztica (or Hepmonaland in GH, etc.)

They also had Saurial, but called them 'Laecerials' This gave me the idea that the 'Saurial Homeworld' was really Abeir all along,and that before the worlds were split apart. Homebrew: The actual race of Sauroids (mentioned in old lore) was just that - the Saurials/Lacerials. The Lacerials were just a rare group that got 'left behind'., but there could have been others. The sarrukh were just one sub-type of Saurials, but one that became dominant over the others (they were a caste system), to the point where the rest of their fellow Sauroids were practically slaves. When Ao twinned the world, he chose to send the oppressed Saurials to Abeir, where it was hotter and better suited to them, without the sarrukh there to bother them. The sarrukh remained on Toril, and went though a 'little ice age', which was extremely detrimental to them - their civilization collapsed.

So you can borrow from the Malatra material or not (they have some very cool bald halflings - they looked/felt sort of 'Egyptian' to me), but either way you can still have saurials in maztica (or in the continents above and below maztica... whatever you want to call them).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2017 22:58:35
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6491 Posts

Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  22:48:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

I really believe that Maztica was a phenomenal idea, done wonderfully by Douglas Niles, but with some fatal flaws. Since I started with Maztica Alive, I’ve tried to hold as close to the original concept as I could but also fix those flaws. Reading dozens of forums and posts on the subject the complaints have been remarkably consistent.

1. Too underpowered
2. Followed RW history too closely
3. Wasn’t supported enough

I’ve tried to fix the under powering by redoing the classes and bringing them up to 5e rules with lore based (though not groundshaking in scope) reasons behind the growth. I think the colonialism RW problem fixed itself considering there were no more immigrants from Faerun for 100 years. Naturally, that could allow the culture to readjust back to itself.

The third problem is what is most important to me though. I have tried not to go terribly crazy with additions. I haven’t added primordials and dragon lords and such because As much as that is awesome stuff - it just didn’t seem Aztec/Maztica to me. I think little additions are fantastic in small doses - like an enclave of Dragonborn trying to find their place in this strange land. The ideas here are legion though and I absolutely love reading this. It’s like a factory for new material.

It’s a whole darn continent. There’s literally room for everything. And i think the reintroduction of Chult and it’s Lost World feel has tangentially struck up a resurgence in interest in the place. That is really awesome.



I agree. It has a good basis, and that's why I was trying to work AROUND your work. The one major issue I had with your stuff was the "gods went silent for a century" piece. Mainly because of exactly the same things you're hearing the other guys come up with.... "why didn't the dragon lords swoop in with their dragonborn servants and make the place like Abeir and enslave all the primitive humans".

This is where my concept of having the gods appearing in Abeir... but in physical form at least at first.... really comes to the fore. For instance, let's say some dragon lord comes to "take over" Helmsport. But, some human paladin of Helm willingly offers his body to serve as the "weakened avatar" of Hemdahl (who seems like Helm to him)... and by "weakened avatar" I'm talking an avatar on the power level of the avatars we saw during the ToT that NEEDED a corporeal host to let them share their body... This weakened avatar then "fights off the dragon lord" or perhaps even kills him. He then tells the people of Helmsport "I will protect you all, but you must sacrifice all of these dragonborn on the altar of Helm". So, the people start taking on the dragonborn and sacrificing them. Their zealotry "empowers" the deity to the point that he can maybe make an avatar that DOESN'T require a mortal host.... but if it "dies" he can "escape" if another mortal host let's him join them. If he dies in "weakened avatar" form he's dead. Eventually, with enough sacrificial offerings, maybe he can manifest multiple avatars... or a standard avatar and a few weakened avatars... or a standard avatar and a few "Chosen" servants... and maybe eventually he can become some "non-corporeal" godlike entity (but that wouldn't be until like the END of the hundred years).

It is through this idea that I see the "cultures" of these other places being able to survive while on Abeir. Ironically, this kind of puts many of these gods in roles that would appear like the "Dawn Titan"... and maybe the "Dawn Titans" eventually start slowly waking up again over that hundred year span. Oh, and one concept that I was also throwing out previously was that perhaps some of these dawn Titans were actually "asleep" so that through their "dreams" they could act as gods on Toril. So, Tezca, Zaltec, Azul, Eha, Plutoq, Nula, Watil may have always been a sleeping primordial on Abeir who was interacting with Toril as a "god" in order to get "faith energy". So, in this instance, these "deities" could simply wake up and be seen by their worshippers during the spellplague era because Ao's rules are in flux (after all primordials are active on Toril). Thus, some red dragon lord appears somewhere and Tezca appears and literally burns a red dragon with a fire so hot that it turns to ash....


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 29 Dec 2017 22:54:51
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

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Posted - 29 Dec 2017 :  23:04:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Gods in Abeir' sounds very wrong to me. That's like mixing oil and water.

But once I am done with the map(s), you can guys can go to town and do whatever you like. Its more than I'll ever do with the place.

I included a link to the Living Jungle Campaign guide in the above post, in case any of you want to mine it for ideas. Why they named the halflings living there 'Shu' when directly north of them you have the 'Shou' is beyond me. That was some pretty piss-poor decision making, IMO.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
6491 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  00:41:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

'Gods in Abeir' sounds very wrong to me. That's like mixing oil and water.

But once I am done with the map(s), you can guys can go to town and do whatever you like. Its more than I'll ever do with the place.

I included a link to the Living Jungle Campaign guide in the above post, in case any of you want to mine it for ideas. Why they named the halflings living there 'Shu' when directly north of them you have the 'Shou' is beyond me. That was some pretty piss-poor decision making, IMO.



But Primordials in Toril doesn't? They're in Toril during the spellplague.... also, bear in mind... I am talking gods that for most purposes are "like" primordials (initially they're forced to occupy a mortal body, then they can create an immortal body (avatar) once they get enough faith energy, then advancing further...). So, basically, maybe Ao's given these gods a chance to survive, IF they can survive and protect the mortals sent over to Abeir.

Hell, I actually hadn't thought through that... but maybe that's WHY those gods "went to Abeir".... maybe Ao didn't want to leave the mortals defenseless against the forces of the dragon lords and primordials.... maybe because he knew they'd be coming back. So, he essentially sends "ground troops" over to help protect them. Maybe Ao's control in Abeir isn't as "broad" as it is in Toril. One of the things that I've been saying over time is that Leira and Savras and Mask knew this was coming and were working together at the behest of Ao. Some here would say "why would Ao do that"... well, maybe it is to protect the mortals while they're on Abeir.

In fact, maybe he separated the two because it threatened his own power, and maybe if he can "insinuate" gods into the other world when the people go back (i.e. maybe say portions of Tymanther that goes back has followers of some deities.... and thus a fledgling aspect of a Torilian god can now transfer there) then he can try to work against the primordials which threaten Ao's ultimate power.

This would imply that Ao didn't "cause" the spellplague so much as know it was coming to some degree, and he simply is working to adapt to it. Meanwhile, if we accept the idea of sleeping primordials in abeir working through their dreams to ACT as gods on Toril, then perhaps this is their own subtle way of working against Ao. Maybe this is even why the gods of Maztica weren't cast down during the ToT.

BTW, this might imply that the primordials have a beef with Ao, but not necessarily the gods/estelar.... which is an idea to consider. Maybe even the gods don't know the truth of these things.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 30 Dec 2017 :  01:35:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, and regarding the piece about how Maztica, Anchorome and Katashaka moving over and all we got was Laerakond..... noting this from the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide

Halruaa. Once believed destroyed in the conflagration of the Spellplague, Halruaa has largely been restored to the insular, magic-mighty nation it once was. Because of the foresight of their divinations, Halruaan wizards were able to use the raging blue fire that followed Mystra's death to propel their nation safely into the realm of Toril's twin, Abeir (displacing part of that world into the Plane of Shadow).

So, thinking on that for a second, maybe that's WHY so little of Abeir came over to Toril... it got displaced to the plane of shadow. Also, nothing says that this displacement had to be "equal".... and in fact, maybe the work of the Halruaan wizards didn't JUST protect Halruaa. It may have extended to all lands moved. In fact, that statement could even place a "fledgling weave" in all moved lands, such that the practictioners sent to Abeir weren't lacking magic entirely. In fact, this "ripping" of a portion of the power of the weave could have been the reason why the magic on Toril went haywire for ten years. Zeromaru... I hope you're reading this... does this help us solve a lot of what we had been discussing.

Oh, and on the displaced piece of Abeir sent to Shadow.... maybe this was because they "pulled" the entirety of the shadow weave away from Shar during that flux moment when the Halruaans are "ripping" a portion of the weave (and thus... the place where the weave WASN'T <aka the shadow of the weave> was now in flux). Throwing that even further, if the weave suddenly WAS part of Abeir... then the places that it WASN'T in Abeir would technically suddenly become the "shadow of the weave" in Abeir. Maybe Mystra I knew that Mystra II would get killed (due to Savras) and she put things in motion to yank the shadow weave out of Shar's control. The idea that Leira and Mask might be involved with that would actually make sense if the shadow weave were sent to shadow and both of them have ties to shadow in some form (after all Mask in 2e had shadows as HIS portfolio).

Hmmm, and taking it even further... if somehow the act by the Halruaans was fueled by and ripped away the "shadow of the weave" on Toril, then perhaps the weave itself "seeped into" the places that the shadow of the weave had been previously. Essentially, seeding even MORE of the weave under Mystra's control in Toril, but spreading it so thin that it had to "ferment" or "grow until able to be harvested" kind of like a lawn that's been torn up by motorbikes has to have new grass slowly spread back in to fill the holes.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 30 Dec 2017 01:42:10
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