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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 02:08:05
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I believe Aldrick's example, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is not to make characters "like" Drizzt on a surface level, but rather, develop adventurers native to a given region of the Realms, dealing with local problems and adventures...
Yes, exactly. I'm not talking about creating Drizzt clones.
It's the difference between having Chosen popping up everywhere and trying to save the world / kingdom / city from destruction, or having a story about Drizzt and his Companions.
Story Examples:
* The story develops around a core group of underground Harpers located in Westgate. Their stories involve political intrigue, backroom dealings, and the subtle shifts and balances of power along the Dragon Coast. They are good guys, who sometimes have to do bad and questionable things for what they regard to be the greater good.
* The story revolves around a former orc slave in Thay who earned a name as a gladiator, and freed himself by slaying his master and starting a minor slave revolt. He now finds himself a leader of a small band of loyal followers, who look to him for protection. Caught between his own selfish interests and his new found responsibilities, he must evade Thayan attempts at recapture and reprisal. This could lead him to flee deep into the heart of the Yuirwood, where he might uncover forgotten secrets of the ancient Elves who once lived there that could change his life forever.
* The story is centered around a gang of thugs, mercenaries, and ne'er-do-well's out of Mulmaster who are struggling to maintain their position of power in the city. Their leader, a former Zhent mercenary, encounters a mysterious benefactor that has the ability to change all their fortunes. Will they be able to deal with the consequences of their growing power, and perhaps, more importantly: are they prepared to pay the price?
Three basic stories.
The first is more centered around the Harpers of Westgate as a group, rather than a central character. Lots of political intrigue, mystery, and double dealing. The story is more about the dynamic of the group, and how they decide to handle the challenges that face them and the compromise and enemies they make in the process. One novel. If successful, follow up with more novels dealing with this group and new challenges facing them in the region. Over time use it as an opportunity to better develop and flesh out the Dragon Coast and it's many flavorful characters.
The second is more centered around a single character, an orc gladiatorial slave turned rebel leader. The story primarily revolves around the decisions he makes in relation to his fellow freed slaves, and his own selfish interests. The story reaches it's climax when he discovers something in the Yuirwood that changes his life forever, ultimately leaving the door open for more stories. One novel. If successful, follow up with more novels dealing with the fall out of what happened in the Yuirwood, and how that leads him to a larger life of adventure. He travels the Realms, making friends and enemies, and a name for himself.
The third is centered around the leader of a gang of thugs and mercenaries in Mulmaster. It's a dark fantasy story dealing with the harsh underworld of Mulmaster and the Moonsea. In the background are mysterious unknown forces influencing events, and an opportunity to turn the fortunes of the gang leader and his gang around. However, there is a price to be paid, and it's that price that sets the backdrop for the story and future events involving this character. One novel. If successful, follow up with more novels dealing with the consequences of what happened in the first, and follow the gang and it's leader as they attempt to rise to the top of the underworld or come crashing down. Over time use it as an opportunity to explore and flesh out the Moonsea, and in particular it's seedy underbelly.
All of these are good examples of stories that can be written in the Realms that don't break anything, but serve to add to the flavor and lore of the setting. I came up with each of them on the spot, in less than ten minutes. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 03:14:35
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I'd pay good coin to read any of those three Aldrick.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 04:26:40
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I'd pay good coin to read any of those three Aldrick.
-- George Krashos
Ditto that.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 04:33:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
All of these are good examples of stories that can be written in the Realms that don't break anything, but serve to add to the flavor and lore of the setting. I came up with each of them on the spot, in less than ten minutes.
Now all you have to do is develop them into full-length tales, get them published, and convince however many thousands of people to purchase them so that not only will they continue to support your work, but they come away wanting to purchase other Realms products too. I'm not saying you don't have good ideas, but let's not pretend that it's just that simple to run a successful publishing line, and The Powers That Be at WOTC are just too blind to see it. If that was the case, we would see a proliferation of successful fantasy RPG & novel lines beating the pants off of WOTC. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 06:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
Now all you have to do is develop them into full-length tales, get them published, and convince however many thousands of people to purchase them so that not only will they continue to support your work, but they come away wanting to purchase other Realms products too. I'm not saying you don't have good ideas, but let's not pretend that it's just that simple to run a successful publishing line, and The Powers That Be at WOTC are just too blind to see it. If that was the case, we would see a proliferation of successful fantasy RPG & novel lines beating the pants off of WOTC.
Actually, that's not what I was saying at all. You misunderstood my point, which KnightErrantJR clarified and that I was further elaborating on with examples.
That point is that the Realms is best suited to telling stories that are primarily character driven, focused on a small group of individuals in a localized area. These types of stories add to the lore of the Realms, and help further develop the setting. When we start to broaden beyond that scope, we start to get into RSE territory, and that is problematic because a RSE invalidates a chunk of previously established lore.
Just as one example, take the events that took place in Thay with it's civil war and the rise of Szass Tam to prominence. How much of the established lore on Thay was invalidated as a result of these events? Open up Dreams of the Red Wizards and the Unapproachable East. How much of that lore is relevant to Thay in it's present form? The answer to that is: not much. It's useful from a historical perspective, but the new Thay is radically different from the old Thay.
From a book reader perspective, this might not be that big of a deal. Especially if all someone is doing is reading the novels. However, if we're talking about actually playing a Campaign in the Realms and setting it in Thay... well...
Your ability to do that hinges on what you know about Thay and the Red Wizards. If you are trying to keep your home Realms close to canon, this is a big problem. So, basically you have two options. You either break from canon, or you tell a different story with your campaign.
Understand, I'm not saying that the stories are poorly written, that they are uninteresting, or anything like that. I'm saying that they are bad for the setting, because in order for the Realms to work everyone - authors, designers, readers, and gamers - have to be working from the same base understanding of the world. This is not possible when it keeps blowing up.
I was holding up Drizzt as an example, because it's perhaps the Realms most popular character, the books sell really well, and by and large Salvatore writes within those boundaries. People don't buy Drizzt novels because they expect massive shake ups in the Realms, they buy the novels for Drizzt. They want to read about him, his adventures, and his companions. They're invested in the character.
We need more successful characters and novels like that, rather than what we've seen pretty much post Time of Troubles. This was the point I was trying to make. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 14 Jul 2014 06:20:14 |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 07:42:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Your ability to do that hinges on what you know about Thay and the Red Wizards. If you are trying to keep your home Realms close to canon, this is a big problem. So, basically you have two options. You either break from canon, or you tell a different story with your campaign.
Understand, I'm not saying that the stories are poorly written, that they are uninteresting, or anything like that. I'm saying that they are bad for the setting, because in order for the Realms to work everyone - authors, designers, readers, and gamers - have to be working from the same base understanding of the world.
I think this logic is kind of contradictory; if having everyone on the same page is important (let alone even possible, given that the moment Ed turned the Realms over to TSR, it inevitably would depart from his home campaign, just as it would from the home campaigns of people buying the setting in stores) then wouldn't the best thing be for WoTC to stop making Forgotten Realms products altogether? That way no new canon would be established, and they wouldn't put people in the awkward position of having to change their campaigns to match up with that new canon.
To add to this, I must say I find the idea of a campaign that feels it has to adhere to canon incredibly boring. To me, TSR/WoTC/Hasbro are and always have been in the business of selling ideas. If I like those ideas, I will use them. If not, I will make up my own. That, to me, is the joy of RPGs. Your mileage may vary.
quote:
We need more successful characters and novels like that, rather than what we've seen pretty much post Time of Troubles. This was the point I was trying to make.
We do need more successful characters, of course, but the question is how do they become successful? It's harder now than it's ever been with so many different forms of entertainment vying for the audience's attention. There are so many great stories out there that have been published but never noticed. We even have talented authors who write for the Realms who aren't even getting their books published in print form. So you can write a great story, but how do you get people to notice it? RSEs (or their equivalents in other contexts) are one tool in the toolbox. It shouldn't be the only tool, and it shouldn't be overused or misused, but to throw away a tool that works is foolish. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 19:09:24
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I think there's a big difference between lore being invalidated and lore simply becoming outdated, which is what happens when a RSE comes along.
I personally believe that RSE's are needed once in a while to shake things up. Otherwise there's no way to make credible threats to the world since we know from the start that they're doomed to fail since the setting is immutable.
Do all stories need to be RSEs? Obviously not. In fact a lot of my favorite novels are far from being RSEs, but a setting without RSEs is a stagnant and dead setting.
I certainly don't believe that the Realms should forever be stuck to adhering to whatever sourcebook player a or player b prefers. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 00:26:34
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quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
I think this logic is kind of contradictory; if having everyone on the same page is important (let alone even possible, given that the moment Ed turned the Realms over to TSR, it inevitably would depart from his home campaign, just as it would from the home campaigns of people buying the setting in stores) then wouldn't the best thing be for WoTC to stop making Forgotten Realms products altogether? That way no new canon would be established, and they wouldn't put people in the awkward position of having to change their campaigns to match up with that new canon.
That is clearly not what I am suggesting. There is a difference between radically altering a country and telling character driven stories that help evolve the canon over time, mostly through adding more detail and complexity rather than invalidating most of what is already there. A RSE, by it's very nature, will radically invalidate existing canon. This, in turn, breaks the nature of a shared world because people no longer have a common baseline in which to tell stories.
In fact, if the Realms were to continue down the path in the same vain as the post-ToT Realms, then why even pretend to have a shared world at all? It would make more sense to handle the Realms similar to the way Eberron is handled in terms of its canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I personally believe that RSE's are needed once in a while to shake things up. Otherwise there's no way to make credible threats to the world since we know from the start that they're doomed to fail since the setting is immutable.
...a setting without RSEs is a stagnant and dead setting.
I certainly don't believe that the Realms should forever be stuck to adhering to whatever sourcebook player a or player b prefers.
The Realms is a shared world with evolving canon, everyone understands that. The issue is not over that canon evolves with time, but how it evolves through RSE-style events. The canon of the Realms DOES NOT have to evolve that way.
A Realms without RSE's does not make "a stagnant and dead setting" - it makes a strong baseline for everyone to tell stories in a shared world. The Realms does not need threats to the entire world. That's like saying real life is boring because our solar system isn't near a star that's about to go supernova, near a rogue black hole, or isn't faced with a ten mile long asteroid on a direct collision course with Earth. It's like saying because the United States or Canada haven't collapsed into failed states, that life there must be boring.
There are millions of stories that can be told that do not involve blowing things up. Those stories just happen to be more character driven than event driven, and more localized in nature.
Let's not pretend that WotC was somehow required to do these things to the setting in order to tell stories. They admitted that they deliberately and intentionally decided to tell those types of stories because it guaranteed that people would buy the books - it was a marketing strategy. Because there was a RSE, everyone felt that they needed to go and read the book to find out what happened. In retrospect, they've admitted that this was a bad idea, and that's the reason they were pledging that there would be no more RSE's after the Sundering. The entire purpose of the Sundering was an attempt to fix the setting.
In fact, 4th Edition was just a natural outgrowth of the RSE love-fest the Realms had... after all, if everyone is buying the products then people must like them, right? They decided to give the fan base more of what they wanted - a radically changing Realms with massive shake ups... and they jumped the shark. Now they're trying to fix it.
quote:
Originally posted by CylverSaber
To add to this, I must say I find the idea of a campaign that feels it has to adhere to canon incredibly boring. To me, TSR/WoTC/Hasbro are and always have been in the business of selling ideas. If I like those ideas, I will use them. If not, I will make up my own. That, to me, is the joy of RPGs. Your mileage may vary.
I used to stay as close to canon as I could. I spent the bulk of 3rd Edition complaining about the RSE's that were blowing everything up. When 4th edition happened, I decided to abandon any crazy notion that I had of ever trying to share a world with WotC. I made massive changes to my Realms to bring it more in line with my personal tastes, and the types of stories I wanted to tell.
Am I happy with what I've done? Yes. I don't foresee ever returning to the canon of the Realms. The downside is that I am no longer as loyal to the product line as I once was... I no longer really follow the canon, because I simply don't care.
My loyalty is to the setting as a whole. It's my hope to see it greatly surpass its former success, and that new players are drawn to the setting for all the reasons that it drew me in many years ago. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 01:19:37
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| There were several times in the 3rd edition era when I was choosing between a stand alone novel and the latest RSE, and I sadly almost always chose the latest RSE, not because I preferred them, but because I was worried I was going to miss something important. But the interesting distinction here is that had the RSE not been an option, I was still planning on buying a Forgotten Realms novel to read at that point. I can't say that this experience is true of everyone, but it was true for me. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 02:21:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
A Realms without RSE's does not make "a stagnant and dead setting" - it makes a strong baseline for everyone to tell stories in a shared world. The Realms does not need threats to the entire world. That's like saying real life is boring because our solar system isn't near a star that's about to go supernova, near a rogue black hole, or isn't faced with a ten mile long asteroid on a direct collision course with Earth. It's like saying because the United States or Canada haven't collapsed into failed states, that life there must be boring.
That's a pretty ridiculous comparison, more so when the political organization of the real world has in fact changed a lot in the last 100 years. Probably a lot more than the Realms have changed, RSE's and everything.
Making real life comparisons with a fictional setting is often times silly. There's a reason why people read fiction, one of those is that there's stuff that can only happen in fiction.
You completely ignore the argument that there would never be any credible threats to the Realms without RSE's happening. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 03:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
That's a pretty ridiculous comparison, more so when the political organization of the real world has in fact changed a lot in the last 100 years. Probably a lot more than the Realms have changed, RSE's and everything.
Making real life comparisons with a fictional setting is often times silly. There's a reason why people read fiction, one of those is that there's stuff that can only happen in fiction.
You completely ignore the argument that there would never be any credible threats to the Realms without RSE's happening.
Of course things are going to radically change over the course of 100 years. I'm not sure why you think I'm actually supporting the canon 4E time jump.
You said: "I personally believe that RSE's are needed once in a while to shake things up. Otherwise there's no way to make credible threats to the world..." you also said, "...a setting without RSEs is a stagnant and dead setting."
There was a reason that I used real life as a comparison. There are lots of interesting and exciting things happening in the real world that does not require massive instability, the collapse of the social order, a culture, or a nation. The same is true in the Realms.
There is no reason that the ENTIRE Realms has to be under threat. The setting does not become "stagnant and dead" because nations, cities, cultures, deities, and more are radically altered or wiped away.
I would even push back on the notion of "credible threats to the Realms" - there is actually never a serious creditable threat to the Realms, because we know how it's going to end. The heroes will ultimately win. Unfortunately, the Realms doesn't operate under the rules of George R.R. Martin's a Song of Fire and Ice. So the endings are quite predictable in these massive RSE's.
Did you actually believe for a single moment that Szass Tam was going to be successful with the Dread Rings? Of course not. He was going to fail, and it was just a matter of how the heroes did it and how much stuff was wrecked in the process.
So, what was REALLY accomplished by that story? Well, Thay was radically altered.
Or what about the stories involving the killing off of the Drow Pantheon. Did you actually read those believing that Lolth would somehow lose and Eilistraee would - what? Redeem all the Drow? Did you believe that? No, the best case scenario was how much of a victory could Eilistraee get before she got axed like all the others.
Or what about the death of Mystra? Did you actually believe that she was going to stay dead forever, and that WotC wasn't going to bring her back?
We can go on and on and on. When WotC does a RSE it isn't well thought out, and it has no real purpose behind it aside to push people into believing they have to buy the books to keep up with the changes to the setting. It's change for the sake of change itself. That's all it is... smoke and mirrors. Meanwhile, in the process, they wreck havoc on the shared setting. It's a shared setting because it's supposed to be a shared world between WotC, independent authors who tell stories in it, and the people who play who set their games in it.
When people don't have a shared base in which to tell a story, the entire premise of a shared setting falls apart. It then makes more sense to treat canon for the Realms like is done in Eberron, except perhaps for the novels which would maintain their own independent continuity. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 10:35:44
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I agree that some more character driven stories would be great, in recent years it has become obvious that is is a market for those types of stories. However that does not mean I don't want to see more RSEs. A RSE or two that is well done can add a lot of excitement and anticipation to the realms that a more localized , slower paced novel simply cannot.
I don't know about you but I want to read and play in a world that feels real to me and that means it has to change and evolve just like the real world. So I have no problem with the elves reclaiming Myth Drannor or Shade returning. Its better than reading about Elminister massacring yet another group of Zhentharim mages. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 20:51:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I believe Aldrick's example, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is not to make characters "like" Drizzt on a surface level, but rather, develop adventurers native to a given region of the Realms, dealing with local problems and adventures...
Yes, exactly. I'm not talking about creating Drizzt clones.
It's the difference between having Chosen popping up everywhere and trying to save the world / kingdom / city from destruction, or having a story about Drizzt and his Companions.
Story Examples:
* The story develops around a core group of underground Harpers located in Westgate. Their stories involve political intrigue, backroom dealings, and the subtle shifts and balances of power along the Dragon Coast. They are good guys, who sometimes have to do bad and questionable things for what they regard to be the greater good.
* The story revolves around a former orc slave in Thay who earned a name as a gladiator, and freed himself by slaying his master and starting a minor slave revolt. He now finds himself a leader of a small band of loyal followers, who look to him for protection. Caught between his own selfish interests and his new found responsibilities, he must evade Thayan attempts at recapture and reprisal. This could lead him to flee deep into the heart of the Yuirwood, where he might uncover forgotten secrets of the ancient Elves who once lived there that could change his life forever.
* The story is centered around a gang of thugs, mercenaries, and ne'er-do-well's out of Mulmaster who are struggling to maintain their position of power in the city. Their leader, a former Zhent mercenary, encounters a mysterious benefactor that has the ability to change all their fortunes. Will they be able to deal with the consequences of their growing power, and perhaps, more importantly: are they prepared to pay the price?
Three basic stories.
The first is more centered around the Harpers of Westgate as a group, rather than a central character. Lots of political intrigue, mystery, and double dealing. The story is more about the dynamic of the group, and how they decide to handle the challenges that face them and the compromise and enemies they make in the process. One novel. If successful, follow up with more novels dealing with this group and new challenges facing them in the region. Over time use it as an opportunity to better develop and flesh out the Dragon Coast and it's many flavorful characters.
The second is more centered around a single character, an orc gladiatorial slave turned rebel leader. The story primarily revolves around the decisions he makes in relation to his fellow freed slaves, and his own selfish interests. The story reaches it's climax when he discovers something in the Yuirwood that changes his life forever, ultimately leaving the door open for more stories. One novel. If successful, follow up with more novels dealing with the fall out of what happened in the Yuirwood, and how that leads him to a larger life of adventure. He travels the Realms, making friends and enemies, and a name for himself.
The third is centered around the leader of a gang of thugs and mercenaries in Mulmaster. It's a dark fantasy story dealing with the harsh underworld of Mulmaster and the Moonsea. In the background are mysterious unknown forces influencing events, and an opportunity to turn the fortunes of the gang leader and his gang around. However, there is a price to be paid, and it's that price that sets the backdrop for the story and future events involving this character. One novel. If successful, follow up with more novels dealing with the consequences of what happened in the first, and follow the gang and it's leader as they attempt to rise to the top of the underworld or come crashing down. Over time use it as an opportunity to explore and flesh out the Moonsea, and in particular it's seedy underbelly.
All of these are good examples of stories that can be written in the Realms that don't break anything, but serve to add to the flavor and lore of the setting. I came up with each of them on the spot, in less than ten minutes.
I read these Ideas and I think the VERY first thing that came to my mind was that "Wow, I wonder what Mulmaster is like?" And "cool, I'd like to see how Thay has been shaping up and to delver deeper into the Yuirwood." To my knowledge, these places aren't heavily discussed in novels apart from a series or two.
If we get novels about interesting places or places that don't receive a lot of detail and attention, they can be pretty darn interesting and fun. The problem is that they're less known and less likely to draw an gaze of someone who's maybe only mildly interested in the Realms, unlike using the buzzwords: Waterdeep, Neverwinter, or Baldur's Gate (all three having extensive presence outside of novels and campaign setting books). |
Edited by - Diffan on 15 Jul 2014 20:52:26 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 19:22:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
(...)
You know, with your examples you kind of conveniently ignore the parts where actual change happened to the Realms.
Sure, Szass Tam completely reshaping the setting to his own desires was something that was improbable to happen, but along the way big changes happened to Thay. If several people had their way, at the end of the story everything would have returned to normal.
So yeah, that event made Szass Tam a much more credible threat compared to if no change at all had happened.
And how about how Shade basically wiped out the Zhentarim and conquered Sembia? This certainly made them look a lot more threatening than what the Zhents usually managed to pull off.
And it doesn't just have to be evil stuff. How about the elves reclaiming Myth Drannor?
If the setting was set of stone and any change was forbidden we would know from the start that none of these things were possible. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 20:01:29
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I don't have any problem with change. I just think change should feel organic to the setting.
I'm not a fan of change for the sake of change.
Or of changes that aren't explained or that don't have their ramifications explored.
I'm hoping the RSE roller-coaster has stopped and we can concentrate on telling stories...
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Edited by - hobbitfan on 16 Jul 2014 20:10:55 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 22:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Like the Sythilisian Empire, and then the appearance of Oaxtupa. An organic change that didn't annihilate previous lore, in fact it built upon it.
Had it not been ignored we could have had a kingdom of Amn with a monster infested region on its doorstep. The Knights of the Shield would be well placed in both Amn and Tethyr.
Or the creation of the Moonstars, or the Harper Schism, or the Manshoon Wars, or the invasion of Unther, or the creation of the Silver Marches, or Halaster's Harvestide, etc, etc.
I don't think many people complained about those changes and I don't think they were novel based either.
quote:
Originally posted by hobbitfan
I don't have any problem with change. I just think change should feel organic to the setting.
I'm not a fan of change for the sake of change.
Or of changes that aren't explained or that don't have their ramifications explored.
I'm hoping the RSE roller-coaster has stopped and we can concentrate on telling stories...
Dazzlerdal and Hobbitfan get exactly what I am saying. It's not about stagnation, it's about natural and organic change to the setting. Not forced change for the sake of change. Not change that completely invalidates the old lore, but rather change that builds upon it making it richer and deeper.
And yes a thousand times to Hobbitfan's comment: "Or of changes that aren't explained or that don't have their ramifications explored."
A prime example of that was the planting of the Tree of Souls in Myth Drannor. This wasn't necessary to tell the story, but they decided to do it anyway. Well, planting that tree was supposed to have HUGE implications for the Elves. Literally, the Elves were supposed to begin migrating from Evermeet to the new Elven Homeland. Did that happen? No.
In fact, not only was the planting of the Tree a non-event, it has been nearly completely forgotten and overlooked. Even Ed forgot to include information about the Tree of Souls in the Herald, simply because it was such an insignificant event that it likely escaped his mind. Worse, it raises the question why didn't the Elves use the Tree of Souls when Myth Drannor was under siege?
The Tree of Souls was SUPPOSED to be one of the most powerful artifacts in the Realms, if not THE most powerful artifact in the Realms. ...and it was wasted, completely wasted.
Understand, this is one of the problems with the way RSE's were handled. Big things would happen and then get ignored, not be fully explored, or their ramifications not be allowed to play fully out because the ramifications wouldn't suit the pre-determined outcome that they want. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 23:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I don't think many people complained about those changes and I don't think they were novel based either.
RE: the Silver Marches, you'd be surprised at the number of people who posted some version of, "What?! They publish a new edition and all of a sudden there's a whole kingdom where there never was one before and there’s a mythal over Silverymoon?!?!?! ARGH! Nobody at WotC cares about the Realms! Nobody at WotC respects the lore! Who let this happen?! Where’s the Realmslore traffic cop!? Bring back Steven Schend NOW! Waaaaaaaaa…”
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 23:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
[Dazzlerdal and Hobbitfan get exactly what I am saying. It's not about stagnation, it's about natural and organic change to the setting. Not forced change for the sake of change. Not change that completely invalidates the old lore, but rather change that builds upon it making it richer and deeper.
A lot of people that bothered to post online felt that the changes from 2E to 3E completely invalidated old lore and amounted to change for the sake of change.
I’m not saying your point is invalid. On the contrary you make a good argument for how 5E ought to proceed.
I’m simply trying to point out that there were perspectives back then that were hostile to any change to the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Understand, this is one of the problems with the way RSE's were handled. Big things would happen and then get ignored, not be fully explored, or their ramifications not be allowed to play fully out because the ramifications wouldn't suit the pre-determined outcome that they want.
I don’t agree that ramifications weren’t explored because of pre-determined outcomes. I think you’re assuming too much.
However, I can sympathize with your general point. I’ve felt for a long time that the ToT should have had HUGE ramifications for the Realms, yet it was as if everything went back to normal. The things that did change didn’t seem enough, like they should have been the tip of a much larger spear.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
And yes a thousand times to Hobbitfan's comment: "Or of changes that aren't explained or that don't have their ramifications explored."
Quoting out of order here. Just want to point out that some changes shouldn’t be explored. They should be left alone so DMs can run with them. Likewise so fans can think about and talk about what the changes mean online. Tying up all loose ends is bad for the Realms, and that includes significant changes. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 00:26:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
And yes a thousand times to Hobbitfan's comment: "Or of changes that aren't explained or that don't have their ramifications explored."
Quoting out of order here. Just want to point out that some changes shouldn’t be explored. They should be left alone so DMs can run with them. Likewise so fans can think about and talk about what the changes mean online. Tying up all loose ends is bad for the Realms, and that includes significant changes.
I could be mistaken, but I don't think that's what Aldrick was referring to. I think, instead, he was referring to events that seemed like they should have a larger impact, but then ended abruptly and were not mentioned again. The Rage of Dragons, for example, was supposed to have affected a lot of dragons over a wide swathe of the Realms. But once the novel trilogy was done, there were no further references to draconic depredations during that time frame, or to changes wrought by dragon deaths (like new dragons moving into an area, previously cowed dragons becoming bolder when a more powerful wyrm was slain, or the effects on the locals when a recently-slain dragon's hoard was discovered). Those would be loose ends that DMs could happily explore, but these things were never referenced or even implied -- leaving the ramifications unexplored. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 01:52:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think, instead, he was referring to events that seemed like they should have a larger impact, but then ended abruptly and were not mentioned again. The Rage of Dragons, for example, was supposed to have affected a lot of dragons over a wide swathe of the Realms. But once the novel trilogy was done, there were no further references to draconic depredations during that time frame, or to changes wrought by dragon deaths (like new dragons moving into an area, previously cowed dragons becoming bolder when a more powerful wyrm was slain, or the effects on the locals when a recently-slain dragon's hoard was discovered). Those would be loose ends that DMs could happily explore, but these things were never referenced or even implied -- leaving the ramifications unexplored.
Well, that’s exactly what I was talking about when I wrote the phrase “loose ends”: anything related to the events in an RSE, whether directly or tangentially.
In terms of the general idea that Aldrick is trying to get across, I think he’s speaking to the idea of a different way for sourcebooks to be presented and written, where major events in the Realms, and fallout from same, are referenced in all subsequent books (where relevant) and all prior mentions of anything in the Realms having to do with that big event (in this case dragons) must be updated at some point to reflect the current state of things.
If this is what he’s saying, then I’m against it because it leads to just the sort of lore bloat that turns people off from the setting. It also pushes the idea onto DMs that they have to stay current on the novels and sourcebooks. This on top of taking away every hook a DM might come up with on his or her own (for example: DM wonders what happened to dragon X in the wake of the novel trilogy, then sets to work since he or she knows that dragon hasn’t been talked about).
I’m sympathetic, however, to the idea of sourcebooks not “forgetting” about an event, because it leaves people scratching their heads and wondering why a current sourcebook seems to pretend such and such event never happened (though of course sourcebooks written in parallel with or before the novel trilogy was penned should be excluded)
What I’m for is a middle ground: smaller events (no bigger than something like Cormyr’s war against Nalavarra) and a slower pace for the advancement of time, so DMs can feel grounded in the Realms, no matter where they set their campaigns, while also being able to ignore major events because those events are specific to parts of the Realms, not the entire continent.
I’m not sure that the after effects of the Rage of Dragons were completely ignored. Did every single sourcebook after that trilogy ignore the trilogy (besides Grand History)? Was in mentioned in the updates section of the 3.5 Player’s Guide to the Realms?
Note: I never read the trilogy so I’ve no basis against which to judge future sourcebooks. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 17 Jul 2014 02:01:12 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 01:53:35
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"Dazzlerdal and Hobbitfan get exactly what I am saying. It's not about stagnation, it's about natural and organic change to the setting. Not forced change for the sake of change. Not change that completely invalidates the old lore, but rather change that builds upon it making it richer and deeper."
This doesn't make sense. Can someone define "natural and organic change" in a completely fantasy world? In most cases, what's organic and natural progression is just progression that someone enjoys or doesn't have any problems with. When things happen that people don't like, it gets thrown into the "That's completely unbelievable! It's changed for no reason what so ever."
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 02:38:33
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How doesn't it make sense? A fantasy world doesn't mean without rhyme or reason. On the one hand you have events that build on trends introduced in existing lore, or reveal new aspects that are in sympathy with those trends and plausible in light of that lore, and develop according to the setting's own dynamics, such as the way power groups act and magic works. It feels like an unfolding. On the other hand you have events that transparently come out of nothing except what a certain designer thinks would be cool or exciting, develop according only to the needs of the plot, and disappear back into nothing, or into one particular change without attendant consequences.
There's a grey area, but often enough the difference has been as plain as day. To put it another way, compare the monthly clack in the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms with the RSE summaries in Player's Guide to Faerûn. They don't read like the same world. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 09:35:18
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Like the Sythilisian Empire, and then the appearance of Oaxtupa. An organic change that didn't annihilate previous lore, in fact it built upon it.
Had it not been ignored we could have had a kingdom of Amn with a monster infested region on its doorstep. The Knights of the Shield would be well placed in both Amn and Tethyr.
Or the creation of the Moonstars, or the Harper Schism, or the Manshoon Wars, or the invasion of Unther, or the creation of the Silver Marches, or Halaster's Harvestide, etc, etc.
I don't think many people complained about those changes and I don't think they were novel based either.
Those changes were good changes indeed. |
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http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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CylverSaber
Seeker
95 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 18:50:10
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| As is being illustrated here, the idea of which changes are "good" or "organic" varies wildly from person to person. What would be useful is to define guidelines for what makes a change "organic", and then examine individual changes to see if they meet those guidelines-- not to bring up individual changes and say "this one I like, this one I don't". |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 18:59:49
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| To me an organic change is a natural combination of previous events or even just an expansion of a single event into other regions or further along a timeline in the original region. This is as opposed to a brand new event, particularly when the previous felt like it was just gaining some traction. |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 19:18:44
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I'm sorry guys, I didn't realize I needed to define "organic" in terms of this discussion. By this I mean changes that flow from already estabished elements within the setting. Historical precident, for example, to demonstrate how nations might react to one another or character behavior as a predictor of what a NPC might do.
That's what I meant.
I did not use the term nor imply the use of the term organic change as a cover for my own personal like/dislike of a change.
Does the change seem to "flow" from earlier events, etc. or is it an arbitrary decision by a game designer? If the FR was real, could you see this happening or is it just happening becuase a writer wants it to?
For instance, I would argue that alot of the changes to races and cosmology in the 4E Realms didn't work becuase they were seemingly done just to get the 4E realms in line with the 4E rules.
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Edited by - hobbitfan on 17 Jul 2014 19:36:28 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 00:15:58
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There are two very different ways of looking at the Realms.
Some people look at the Realms and think, "Wouldn't it be cool if..." and then they start adding things to the Realms simply because they think it's interesting. It may or may not be tied to previously established lore. However, if it is then it is tied to the lore by a very thin thread. For example, someone might think it's cool to have Cormyr invaded and occupied by aberrant creatures that kill off the Royal Family and the rest of the Nobility and enslave the rest of the population. You could even justify something like this as potentially happening because of a group such as the Aboleth Sovereignty which is, as far as I know, still floating around out there somewhere.
Now, just because the idea might seem cool doesn't make it a good idea. In fact, going with this idea would be a horrible thing for the Realms, because it harms the setting by invalidating and trashing all the previously established lore for Cormyr. The setting is meant to be shared, and if you invalidate all the previous Cormyr lore then we don't have a shared base of fiction to work with and tell stories in the same world.
There is another way of looking at the Realms, thankfully. It involves looking at existing lore and building upon it, particularly in underdeveloped areas. It involves adding to the lore of the Realms, giving the setting more depth, more complexity, and more detail. This is the difference between complementing and building upon what is already there, and wiping it away to build something entirely new.
Most of the stories told in the Realms should be similar to those that I outlined previously. They are small scale stories that are character driven, and localized or regional in nature. They are non-RSE stories.
That doesn't mean there can't be major events, however. It just means that they should naturally arise from the already established lore, and should be handled differently than they were previously.
Let's use the example of the Thayan Civil War. Szass Tam making a power play was already built into the lore, and it was a natural and organic outgrowth of that lore to explore what would happen if he made the attempt.
Instead, what actually happened, was WotC had an end goal in mind for Thay. They wanted to change the way Thay looked, and so they seized upon a thin thread of justification and had plot elements imposed upon the country to get a pre-determined outcome. The change wasn't organic, it wasn't explored in any depth, it was change for the sake of change.
Here is how I would have preferred things to be handled:
First, no major event like starting a civil war should be started unless WotC is prepared to devote time and energy to telling that story. It should be a major plot focus for telling stories in the Realms. The reason is you don't want to start a major event and basically leave it hanging, only to have it solved in a quick blurb in the next edition. If you start something major, you have to follow all the way through to it's conclusion.
Second, no one author should have the power to start a major event and then write a resolution to that event. The event must be allowed to play out, and multiple people should contribute by telling stories using that event as a backdrop. So, one author - once they get the green light from WotC - gets the ball rolling with a major event. Then other authors are encouraged to write stories dealing with that event as well - further fleshing things out. Designers contribute by adding lore, and creating adventures. Gamers contribute by playing those adventures and reporting the outcomes to WotC, which then helps determine the canon set of events (similar to Living Forgotten Realms).
Third, we're looking at a number of years passing in real life - where the civil war effectively becomes the 'status quo' of Thay. Very good source material should have been released about Thay, which keeps people up-to-date with the canon timeline. Everyone is on the same page regarding the event and the things that are playing out.
At some logical point during the telling of the story, the event should be wrapped up based on the previously established lore. In other words, no one knows what is going to happen to Thay when the event starts. The consequences for Thay are based upon the stories and events that take place there.
Fourth, there is clean up effort (such as the releasing of a regional source book) detailing the new status quo of Thay post-Civil War. This way the canon is firmly established, and everyone is on the same page.
The future events in Thay would be built upon all of this previously established lore. All the changes are a natural out growth of that lore, and are carried to their logical conclusions.
What do I mean by "logical conclusions"? Well, take the planting of the Tree of Souls as an example. This was done as an afterthought to the main story. However, the implications based on the previously established lore were huge.
When the Tree of Souls was planted it officially ended the Elven Retreat. It is one of the most powerful artifacts in the Realms, if not THE most powerful artifact. One of the consequences of planting the Tree was supposed to be that the Elves were going to begin leaving Evermeet and returning to the Mainland. This is why the Tree acted as a two way portal.
Understand, this means that hundreds of thousands of Elves should have begun to pour into the Cormanthor Forest. Imagine what this would have done to the entire geopolitical landscape of the region. Sure, if it's just a few thousand Elves occupying some ruins and clearing out the dangerous stuff in the Forest things might work. However, suddenly, you're talking about an entire nation.
Not just a nation, but one that is larger and stronger than the surrounding human lands in both terms of numbers and military power. These Elves have no intention of integrating with humans as has happened in places like Silverymoon. No, they're interested in reclaiming their lands... some of which humans happen to sit upon.
Does anyone really think that there wouldn't be tension? That groups such as the Eldreth Veluuthra are going to sit back and not get involved?
Sure, the Dalelands Compact still exists, but by the start of 3rd Edition the lore was clear: The Compact was falling apart. It was barely being held together prior to that.
Imagine a situation where human bandits are attacking Elves who are traveling on the roads to join the growing Kingdom of Cormanthor. They are robbed, beaten, raped, murdered, some are kidnapped and sold into slavery or kept in servitude of the bandits. How are the Elves going to respond to this - how are the Elven people going to feel about humans as word spreads?
Don't you think the Eldreth Veluuthra would exploit that? Of course they would. The Elven citizens of Cormanthor would be angry, they would cry out for vengeance for those who have been harmed. The Eldreth Veluuthra would deliver it to them. Of course, along the way, they'd kill some innocent humans too.
Now imagine how the humans feel as word spreads that Elves from Cormanthor have captured, tortured, and murdered some humans from the Dales - including some children. The humans will cry out for blood and vengeance as well.
Imagine trying to soothe tensions here. You're the head of a town in the Dalelands. People are looking to you for leadership. You have this growing nation on your border that you're very worried about, and your citizens are upset with them because some of their people just tortured and butchered some of your people. If you call for peace and calm, people will see you as an Elven sympathizer. The Elves are not going to hand over another Elf to face human justice, and so at best you'll get promises that they'll face justice (at Elven hands) and likely paid some coin for reparations and damages. Can you really go back to your people with that? No, you can't.
Imagine being on the Elven side of things. You have people who were brutalized, raped, and murdered by humans. You have the Eldreth Veluuthra actively inflaming tensions, both inside Cormanthor and outside of it. The People may be divided on what to do, and even over the actions of the Eldreth Veluuthra. However, they are not divided over the fact that those humans are sitting on land that once belong to the Elves. You know that the forest you're hanging out in used to be bigger back in the old days, and it's not going to hold everyone who is coming over to the new homeland. And finally, you know that handing over Elves to face human justice would likely result in riots - the propagandists among the Eldreth Veluuthra would see to it.
Things only get worse when human vigilantes start taking vengeance on Elves.
So, you have a big freaking problem on both sides. You basically have the makings of a Realms version of the Israel and Palestinian crisis. You have people fighting over land, both of who believe the land belongs to them, and you have people who hate each other on both sides. Those who hate each other kill one another and innocents, which then inflames the moderates, which then drives the politics further into a downward spiral. The entire region becomes destabilized.
This is what I would say is the most logical conclusion of planting the Tree of Souls - if it were followed to it's logical conclusion. Instead, it was planted and entirely overlooked. It became such a minor event that Ed himself forgot to include it in the Herald, simply because - I mean - who really remembers that it was even planted at this point? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4427 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 00:39:11
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We'll use the Spellplague as an example:
What I feel happened was that when Mystra was murdered and the weave was destroyed, it brought Returned Abeir closer to Toril. I think of it as the weave also acting like a magnet that has its repelling side facing Abeir. Remove that and the two worlds collide. This pulling brought planes closer to the prime material plane such as the Feywild and the Shadowfell and how races like elves, due to being closer to the inherent magics of Faerie (spelling?) now gaining the ability to teleport or Shadar-Kai not havi.g to be in constant pain to remain outside the plane of Shadow.
These changes, while drastic, can still be considered natural and organic. |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 04:24:16
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Diffan: I think you might be thinking about "natural and organic" in a different way than muself and other sin this thread.
It sounds like you want this to mean: "Can I rationalize the changes in my own mind and come up with an in-universe explanation?"
The problem is the explanation you spell out is partially a ret-con nand based almost wholly upon information not true until 4E. Until 4E, there was no such thing as Abeir, the 2nd planet split off, etc. That's all a ret-con. The Weave was never holding the 2 planets seperate because previously there was no other planet.
Mystara has died twice before. Once when she changes from Mystryl to Mystra and then when Mystara I dies shortly before Mystra II-Midnight comes on the scene. In both these previous deaths although magical effects are very much affected..nothing in the multiverse outside Toril is affected by the goddesses death. If the 4E writers wanted Mystra's death to be the catalyst it was incumbent upon them to explain how this third death was different enough to have such widespread effects. They didn't.
It's worse because established lore actually makes this death and its after-effects make less sense.
The death of Mystra, the spell-plague and the merging of the worlds is merely a magic bullet the game designers used to explain away the changes they wanted to make. And that's all it was. Changes they wanted to make, either to fit things in-line with 4E or to address "perceived" problems with the setting.
The changes aren't presaged by anyhting in canon really, they don't build upon anything in canon and...well you've doubtless read all this before from other posters on here longer than me.
I'm glad the changes make sense to you.
You haven't proven they are in any way natural or organic. You just stated they were. That's not the same thing.
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Has WOTC committed to fixing the Realms in 5E
