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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 07:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by hobbitfan
I don't envy WOTC their position. It's got to be tough figuring out how to fix the Realms for past fans without dis-enfranchising the 4E guys (new and converts).
I think what they'll likely do is try to be inclusive. Include the 4E Realms as history but change the present to resemble more the "feel" of grey box depiction.
The thing is this whole problem is of WOTC's own creation. They didn't have to do the 4E Realms the way they did. They have to deal with the mess they made.
How do they fix the Realms and bring the fractured fans back together? I guess we'll see...
I don't think it's that difficult at all, really. What they need to do is create and provide a huge, lore-filled snapshot of the current Realms with new NPCs, movers, shakers, places, ruins etc. Tie that in with a decent recent timeline, explain away some of the more egregious lore WTFs (Eric Boyd is your man here - he ties together published realmslore better than any game designer I know) and give the fans something that will take months rather than hours to digest in its entirety.
Back it up with at least 4 new products annually with web article support - a regular current clack progressing the timeline would be cool (but only at a smallish, local scale - no more blowing up Toril again and again and again)- and I think the fanbase would hurry back. Top it off with Realms-specific but easily unbolted game mechanics (the classic new spells, magic items, classes, etc.) for the non-FR diehards to cherry pick, I would say you've got a winner.
Of course all of that would take a lot of time, resources and commitment. I'm not actually sure that WotC has that capacity anymore. Using 3rd parties and freelancers is the solution here but that presents its own problems.
I guess we'll all wait and see what is served up.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 08:05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
For example, I hate that Wolverine in the movies has Bone Claws. Seriously? WTH is up with that?? Totally ruined continuity for me and the character.
Um... It's canon in the comics, too, that Wolverine was born with bone claws...
Sure, it's canon but that doesn't mean that it was the creator's original intent for him to have bone claws. In fact, originally the Weapon-X project included adamantium claws for self-defense. 30 years (real time) later it's "discovered" that he had bone claws in there all the time and that the adamantium had covered them up. I feel it's bad writing but others think it's fine *shrug*.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
No problem. The FRCG does a pretty crappy job of illustrating the point of uneasiness that the elves of Myth Drannor have. If people haven't read the novels, one can easily make the notion that the elves have fully rebuilt and civilized Cormanthor and Myth Drannor.
I wish the FRCG had been more clear on that. I've been complaining about Myth Drannor being tamed since the Last Mythal books came out.
No worries, I think the majority of people thought that as well. Considering that nothing substantial was written about it during 4E (was anything though?) I feel unless you read the Blades of the Moonsea then people didn't get the idea that the city was far from civilized. Sure, the wards kept the monsters in the undercity and probably outside the city walls AND the forest is somewhat guarded and patrolled but I got the feeling that things were pretty dangerous otherwise. |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 19:20:11
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I'm genuinely curious, Tanthalus; is this "perceived wisdom," or is it actually stated somewhere (or in various places)?
love,
THO
It hasn't been stated anywhere, it was just my personal interpretation of the direction that things seem to be heading in.
I'm glad to know that Myth Drannor isn't being abandoned again (I really hate the idea of the elf retreat which is why I loved seeing the reclamation). But given the events in The Herald it's hard to believe that the Shadovar will remain a credible threat and I think that the setting really needs one.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will very much disagree with you, Tanthalas. Despite taking a hell of a lot of fire for my own opinions of 4E, I've gone out of my way to try to make sure people could discuss it freely without being attacked by those with dissenting opinions. And we have had many, many pro-4E discussions here.
And disliking a particular change or set of changes is not at all the same with being resistant to change. Saying that is again dismissing the opinions of those you don't agree with.
You say this, but in this very thread you completely ignore how there are people that want the whole of 4e (and even 3e) be made non-canonical. That's not just dismissing the opinions of those that like 3e and 4e, it's a lot worse.
Yet you only take issue with people "dismissing" the opinions of people that pretty much act like they hate everything about 3e/4e.
I'll be honest here, ever since I've joined these forums I've always noticed a lot more hostility towards the 3e and especially the 4e crowd.
*edited out a line I had edited in*
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Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
Edited by - Tanthalas on 02 Jul 2014 19:29:03 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 19:27:38
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No, that's expressing a different opinion of the ideal way to move forward. That is not the same as dismissing an opinion out of hand.
And there has been plenty of hostility to go around; I myself have been repeatedly attacked and even called names for my dislike of the 4E Realms. If we're going to point fingers, let's point them at all responsible. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 19:35:37
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Sure, that you call that an opinion, but if someone defends that the best way to move forward is to stop trying to cater to people that have hated the setting since 3e or 4e came along, you label it as "dismissing an opinion".
In truth, the only difference between the two is that you agree with one of them which is why only one side of the argument is being labeled as disrespectful.
People called you names for your views, yeah, that's not something nice to read, but you having been the victim of this treatment does not somehow mean that you're treating each "side" fairly. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 19:50:44
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A little off topic to the goings on in this thread, but what's the deal with the Cult of the Dragon in post 4e anyway? The Zhents and Shade are washed up; outside of Drow who are mostly confined to the underdark, I wonder who will be the evil powers in 5e? Thay and drow? ugh. My least favorites.
Also I would love to see Thay back to it's pre-4e state. I really really hate the Undead Lich King concept that is totally overdone, especially at the expense of having a Mageocracy with Zulkirs from each of the schools of magic. That was so much better than just Szass Tam is undead.
Maybe the Cult of the Dragon can rise again to prominance as an enemy. I always enjoyed them, some very cool leaders in Naergoth Bladelord and Salvarad (who would be dead thanks to the stupid timejump from hell). |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 20:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
No, that's expressing a different opinion of the ideal way to move forward.
Looks to me like you just dismissed Tanthalas' opinion in its entirety.
The correct answer, by the way, is that both points of view are true.
When someone calls for 4E to be jettisoned (or 4E and 3E together), yes they're expressing an opinion. But they're also making a pretty extreme statement, if you happened to have liked 3E or 4E and had a good time playing D&D/reading the novels in those eras.
The reaction to that shouldn't be to assume the person making the statement is being a jerk. However, if the same person(s) make the same calls over and over and over, and go out of their way to denigrate the era(s) they don't like (by spouting off misinformed complaints that don't match the reality of the setting after seven+ years of development that both fleshed it out and further tied it to all that came before) and by announcing, yet again, that they refuse to engage with the 4E Realms and to remain uneducated about it, then yes, in this case they're being a jerk.
The fact is there are several diehards that refuse to accept 4E and want it gone. Whereas some 4E fans are bemoaning the changes coming in 5E, but they're not calling for a ban on 5E, they're not ripping the designers and they're not being disrespectful.
That's a key difference that I daresay a lot of people believe you don't see, Wooly.
I think it's absolutely fantastic that some diehards are doing something about how they feel, like dazzler, and I really appreciate that because that's the right way to channel frustration and (most importantly) to turn anger into a means of contributing to the community.
But others--admittedly a small number--aren't. Instead they're ripping the 4E Realms whenever the chance presents itself. I think that's inappropriate and and I think it should be discouraged, both by community members through peer pressure, and by the moderators. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 20:19:24
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Whats really annoying is that few of these evil organisations were ever united and so should not be presented as world spanning/threatening organisations.
Cult of the Dragon was individual cells with few connections that we don't understand (they had to get their copy of the book that allows them to create dracoliches from somewhere and I figure it is the sponsoring cell that creates the new branch but over time the links degrade as people die and they become independent). They have very little in the way of international structure, supply, communication etc to become a world threatening power.
The Red Wizards of Thay were full of cabals that were always working at odds to each other. What looked like a magocracy ruled by representatives of schools of magic was actually a series of secret societies and cabals that sponsored their members to various Zulkir positions to gain power for themselves. They would frequently sabotage the plans of their rivals and this infighting kept them from dominating the rest of the world (that and the Simbul). They did have the beginnings of an international infrastructure with the enclaves but even they should have been owned by the various factions and so always fighting each other.
The Zhentarim was probably the most international organisation but was divided into two halves (East and West, or Banite and Cyric), it would not be unheard of for these two halves to sabotage each others plans.
Even Shade should have been a fractious nation with the sons battling each other for power and position.
Unfortunately for some reason all the evil organisations appear over time to be moving towards united organisations that are able to operate all over the world (probably so they can be used for RSE's).
The Tyranny of Dragons would be less threatening if only a single Cult of the Dragon cell was involved.
I prefer having local organisations that have secret links/sponsors to the larger organisations (usually several of them) and so although it appears you are fighting the such-and-such thieves guild or assassins guild or slavers group or trading coster of Saerloon, it is really under Zhentarim orders or Red Wizard orders or Cult of the Dragon orders, or sometimes all three at the same time in conflict with each other. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 20:35:06
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Evil does appear popular theme these days, I have commented that before. In the old days "when I had to walk to school 10 miles each way, barefooted, though the snow uphill and glad to be able to go to school" it was more about Evil being defeated or at least slowed in their corrupt designs. *shrugs* I was not target audience and yes I do recall a different D&D, there certainly however were problems with every Edition. Duel Classing hardly made sense as to the rules, the first Edition training rules were problematical because of the cost of training. Each new Edition clearly looks at prior ones, concerns raised by them and do try to come up with something better.
Sometimes it appears to fail, though maybe it actually works (I have not seen profit and loss statements). There however also some that will consider the improvements as more like flaws or taking the wrong direction. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 20:38:25
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To the OP:
No, Wizbro is not committed to "fixing" the Realms. The Realms were not broken in the first place.
Wizbro has decided to kow-tow to an extremely small subset of fans who have not purchased anything from them in years, but this is primarily lip-service. It is my belief that the company was reeling from the effect this small group had via social media; sites like this one wherein "fans" were encouraged to denigrate the design team and the products.
Once the new setting comes out, Wizbro will see that there is literally nothing that will keep "fans", like those at Candlekeep, happy. In addition, Wizbro will see that middle-aged men stroking their keyboards are not their target audience. As a result, Wizbro will produce and sell products for the 12-21 year old audience; who like things that are "kewl".
(Like Spellscars, Shade-owy anti-heroes, Dragonmen and Realms-Shaking Events) |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 21:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
To the OP:
No, Wizbro is not committed to "fixing" the Realms. The Realms were not broken in the first place.
Wizbro has decided to kow-tow to an extremely small subset of fans who have not purchased anything from them in years, but this is primarily lip-service. It is my belief that the company was reeling from the effect this small group had via social media; sites like this one wherein "fans" were encouraged to denigrate the design team and the products.
Once the new setting comes out, Wizbro will see that there is literally nothing that will keep "fans", like those at Candlekeep, happy. In addition, Wizbro will see that middle-aged men stroking their keyboards are not their target audience. As a result, Wizbro will produce and sell products for the 12-21 year old audience; who like things that are "kewl".
(Like Spellscars, Shade-owy anti-heroes, Dragonmen and Realms-Shaking Events)
Actually, some of us have bought Realms products. I've got the Neverwinter Campaign Setting, Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms, and the Menzoberranzan Sourcebook sitting on my shelf right now. I didn't buy the FRCS for 4E because the content in it didn't provide anything useful to me that I couldn't already use from my currently owned Realms products. Same for the FR Player's Guide.
As much as I disliked some of the changes 4E made, I've come to accept them and move on. The issue I had was the books Wizards produced prior to the Sundering is that they added very little to my game lore-wise that I found useful to me. I bought the Menzo book because it supported all eras of play. I bought the Neverwinter Campaign Setting because it had a gorgeous map of the city, and El's Forgotten Realms was just gold regardless of era of play.
Getting someone to try something takes more than cool MMO's and web content. The best way of selling a product is word of mouth. And word of mouth works best if fans are enthusiastic about their world.
Enthusiasm can be both negative and positive. You can enthusiastically support a pre ToT Realms, but steal ideas from later sourcebooks. You can enthusiastically support the 4E mechanics and rules, but play in an older era of the Realms.
But regardless of your enthusiastic bent, it takes that passion to draw people.
I'm glad Wizards is making the shift, opening up their marketing focus to all eras of play, and I think it will draw more in to the Realms than some expect.
Among local people, I've talked to people who have never played in the Realms before, or have and it got stale for them. Hearing an old fan of the Realms like me speak optimistically and with enthusiasm has brought me more players, young and old, to try out Toril than it ever did during the prior era.
I worked at a hobby game store, and I still hang out there, and talking to people who are curious about the Realms, it helps a lot if I can be enthusiastic about a product. Since the Sundering, I have been. But for me, the Realms is alive again. It might be a shadow of what it was, but it's something I can look a teen in the eye when I'm advising them about a product purchase at my Friendly Local Game Store, and be honestly passionate about. I'm not sad inside, wanting to whisper to them, "look, just go find this old 2E book on Amazon, they don't publish anything good anymore," I can honestly tell them that El's Realms or the Sundering Novels are a great jumping in point, and if they want more, go to the PDF store, go to Amazon and get the old stuff, too.
Here at Candlekeep, I've found people here at the Keep are more than happy to answer questions, provide help, and answer lore questions for any era, you just have to be willing to accept their opinions with the facts, pretty much like you do with any topic, whether it's a hobby game or NASA's plans for a Mars mission.
If you choose to focus on the negative people out there, and let them rule your decisions to enjoy the Realms, you're going to spend more time angry and depressed than you are having fun.
Some here at the 'Keep are enthusiastic about the old Realms, and we still thirst for products that keep that spirit alive, products we can pull off the shelf and give to our kids and grandkids that still show the glory of the books we read in our youth and yet still introduce new, exciting facts that we ourselves haven't even discovered yet. Products like that are products you can sit down with your kid and just have fun with. They're products you can read together, and learn and have a good old time with.
That's what books like the Sundering novels, and El's Forgotten Realms have accomplished for some of us.
And we're happy about it. It's a good move on Wizard's part, even if it isn't satisfying everyone. But last I checked, satisfying everyone is an impossibility. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
Edited by - Delwa on 02 Jul 2014 21:18:48 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 21:20:47
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quote:
As a result, Wizbro will produce and sell products for the 12-21 year old audience; who like things that are "kewl".
(Like Spellscars, Shade-owy anti-heroes, Dragonmen and Realms-Shaking Events)
Don't forget Lich Kings. Sigh. I suspect you are right, sadly. *shakes cane* Kids today! Greybox -> Cloak and Dagger = best of the Realms. I'm sure I sound like my grandfather describing big band music or something. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 21:29:26
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I loved Elminster's Forgotten Realms, sooo much good stuff.
Cloak and Dagger is still the pinnacle though.
Very. I'll admit, I have a hard time picking up a sourcebook and reading the whole thing. I generally grab one, pick a topic to research, and then start delving through my library of Realms books (and using the handy-dandy Forgotten Realms Index to guide my snooping.)
El's Realms is a book I have gone through and read cover to cover. It was a good move on Wizard's part, and I hope they do more. Cloak and Dagger is good, I just haven't finished digesting every chapter and paragraph.  |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 23:37:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
quote:
As a result, Wizbro will produce and sell products for the 12-21 year old audience; who like things that are "kewl".
(Like Spellscars, Shade-owy anti-heroes, Dragonmen and Realms-Shaking Events)
Don't forget Lich Kings. Sigh. I suspect you are right, sadly. *shakes cane* Kids today! Greybox -> Cloak and Dagger = best of the Realms. I'm sure I sound like my grandfather describing big band music or something.
I think it's important for the new Campaign Guide to really flesh out the notable threats to peace and safety the Realms face now-a-days. There are LOTS of evil organizations that really haven't seen any lime-light over the years.
• The Zhentarim could pose a possible threat IF they're managed right. As I'm currently running the "Super Adventure" for v3.5 the Zhents were pretty evil and posed a considerable threat to the Dalesfolk. T
• The Warlock Knights of Vaasa need updating so we get an idea of what they've been doing over the last couple of years. To my understanding they only appeared as threats in a couple of novels (the prominent one that I can think of is the Blades of the Moonsea) and their entry from the FRCG. I'd like to see more and how they've influenced that part of Faerûn.
• The Eldreth Veluuthra also need to make a stronger appearance this time around. Nothing really is known what happened to their organization after 1374 DR. A lot has and can change for them, especially with the reclaiming (and *sigh* large destruction) of Myth Drannor.
• Shade Enclave / Shadovar haven't been wiped out. Sure they're scrounging to pick up the pieces "literally" but to think they're down and out would be folly. Hopefully their prominence as the main bad-guys is somewhat diminished but not overall gone.
• Thay / Szass Tam / Mageocracy is still a viable threat to those of the Unapproachable East. I'm sure Aglarond, Rasheman, Impiltur, etc. are fearful of the possible undead plague that can extend from Thay's shores. Now personally I enjoy this because I really love Undead/Zombie things and this fits well with my view of what Szass Tam wants. I never liked each "school" of magic vying for power and constantly fighting each other over stuff. Seemed to be extremely counter-productive. In 5E, perhaps some other schools of magic can make a bid to power and put Thay into some sort of balancing factor between the two extremes?
• Shadow Thieves of Amn haven't been mentioned nearly at all in 4E and only here and there with 3E. I'd love to see a prominent adventure heavily dealing with this group again.
• Night Masks, hopefully, haven't been all wiped out and some remain to control parts of Westgate.
• Something new but hopefully NOT something like the Abolethic Sovereignty. It's just too much Cthulhu / Lovecraftian for my likes. If they can tone it down, make it more insidious, or not so over the top like Mass Effect then I could be happy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 23:43:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
To the OP:
No, Wizbro is not committed to "fixing" the Realms. The Realms were not broken in the first place.
Wizbro has decided to kow-tow to an extremely small subset of fans who have not purchased anything from them in years, but this is primarily lip-service. It is my belief that the company was reeling from the effect this small group had via social media; sites like this one wherein "fans" were encouraged to denigrate the design team and the products.
Once the new setting comes out, Wizbro will see that there is literally nothing that will keep "fans", like those at Candlekeep, happy. In addition, Wizbro will see that middle-aged men stroking their keyboards are not their target audience. As a result, Wizbro will produce and sell products for the 12-21 year old audience; who like things that are "kewl".
(Like Spellscars, Shade-owy anti-heroes, Dragonmen and Realms-Shaking Events)
I'd like some references to back up any of this. Where have people been encouraged to denigrate the setting and the products? Where is your proof that people who don't like the 4E setting haven't purchased any of the material? Where is your proof that WotC is trying to cater to its detractors and that their impact was big enough to negatively affect sales to such an extent to make WotC think this was a viable option?
And lastly, if you think we are all negative and can't be made happy, then why are you here? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 23:57:19
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in the infamous words of Charlie Brown
Good Grief
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why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 00:12:51
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Candlekeep has been dedicated to "detraction" of the setting since the advent of 4e. A cursory review of the posts in the last seven years supports this.
Many 'Scribes' have indicated here that they, the Rupert included, would "vote with their money", and not support the setting.
There have been numerous reports from the current design team regarding catering to their detractors.
I occasionally post here to express my opinion, as I have with my post above. As you have stated, Rupert, you encourage statements of opinion in this forum.
So, you're welcome. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 00:25:38
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Saying you will vote with your money is not at all the same as encouraging people to bash the setting. I do support the setting -- I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I just didn't support the changes of 4E or their reasoning, so my gaming money went elsewhere.
A cursory review of the posts here will also show many, many pro-4E discussions.
And yes, I do encourage statements of opinion. Stating something demonstrably false like we encourage people to attack designers is not an opinion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 00:28:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
Making statements and giving them reprieve as an opinion is not helping much. One of the bigger things that I've stated for several years now is that there is a whole new slate of consumers that have come to learn of the Realms through things like organized play. They learned of the Realms, and then moved on to reading novels, etc... It is the highest form of arrogance to suggest that their enjoyment is invalidated at the behest of an era of the game they never knew of (and in many cases were not born yet).
Star Wars is always the best yard-stick of this. Look at what's happening with the news that the EU is not canon anymore. On a personal level, it's absolutely maddening that all the time I spent reading the EU novels and content is now invalidated. I will never get that time back.
Why is the same goal being suggested now with the Realms?
I don't think the time is invalidated anymore than if there were never anymore star wars movies to be made. The characters are still there, te stories were enjoyable, and it can easily be seen as an alternate universe. What really sucks is that there may not be room for FUTURE books by Troy Denning et al. Dark Horse was the heavy weight of the EU and with them gone I doubt we would have had the fantastic comics anyway.
For my part: Abeir is gone, it didn't belong in the realms and I just want the realms map and power players returned to normal. So far it seems the sundering is doing that. So far so good.
I think if people really like Abeir than there should be a separate campaign setting for it, that way everyone that liked it can still have it and I do not need to have it taking up page count from places that were part of the Forgotten Realms and not a new campaign setting placed there for the sake of 'new'or for 'equal fan footing.'
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 00:48:30
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http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18021
Opinions do not require justification... however, in this case, my opinion is demonstrably true.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Saying you will vote with your money is not at all the same as encouraging people to bash the setting. I do support the setting -- I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I just didn't support the changes of 4E or their reasoning, so my gaming money went elsewhere.
A cursory review of the posts here will also show many, many pro-4E discussions.
And yes, I do encourage statements of opinion. Stating something demonstrably false like we encourage people to attack designers is not an opinion.
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 01:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
A little off topic to the goings on in this thread, but what's the deal with the Cult of the Dragon in post 4e anyway?
The Cult of the Dragon in the upcoming Tyranny of dragon's adventures are now led by the priests of Tiamat. Kobold press http://www.koboldquarterly.com/ is doing Tyranny Tuesdays until release, so you can get some insights into the adventure. There is still a faction of the cult that you can encounter in the adventure that stick to the old ways of Sammaster's prophecies, but they are currently not the top dogs.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Zhents and Shade are washed up; outside of Drow who are mostly confined to the underdark, I wonder who will be the evil powers in 5e? Thay and drow? ugh. My least favorites.
The Zhentarim have been up and coming for awhile now and are likely to get more attention as they are one of the factions that PC can choose to join in org play. Also, Erin M. Evans features some interesting Zhentarim politics in her second brimstone angels book.
Also, I wouldn't count the Shades out. They clearly had survivors post the Herald. I think the big difference for the Shadovar is that they will no longer over shadow all of the other evil groups.
The Red wizards of Thay have been pretty active in official adventures lately. They have a role in Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle and Scourge of the Sword Coast. The Dead in Thay adventure features the red wizards. There are two major factions presented in the adventure: the Szass Tam faction and the Thayan rebels who are interested in ousting Tam.
As far as other evil groups that have been mentioned the Arcane Brotherhood are covered in the Legacy of the Crystal Shard adventure. The duergar are shown following Deep duerra in the Scourge of the Sword coast. Dead in Thay features several chosen of evil deities including Auril, Bhaal, Talona, Ghaunadaur and Ibrandul.
I would really encourage you to pick up a pdf of one of the new adventures and try it out. If you want to run a campaign in 5e without having the setting book, Murder in Baldur's Gate, Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle and Scourge of the Sword give you from Daggerford to Baldur's gate in enough detail to run a nice campaign. You mix pregenerated adventures with stuff of your own making and still have a fairly developed little corner of Faerun to pull from. Personally, I am hoping to find out what happened to the Twist Rune. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 03 Jul 2014 01:25:13 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 01:51:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
A little off topic to the goings on in this thread, but what's the deal with the Cult of the Dragon in post 4e anyway?
The Cult of the Dragon in the upcoming Tyranny of dragon's adventures are now led by the priests of Tiamat. Kobold press http://www.koboldquarterly.com/ is doing Tyranny Tuesdays until release, so you can get some insights into the adventure. There is still a faction of the cult that you can encounter in the adventure that stick to the old ways of Sammaster's prophecies, but they are currently not the top dogs.
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
The Zhents and Shade are washed up; outside of Drow who are mostly confined to the underdark, I wonder who will be the evil powers in 5e? Thay and drow? ugh. My least favorites.
The Zhentarim have been up and coming for awhile now and are likely to get more attention as they are one of the factions that PC can choose to join in org play. Also, Erin M. Evans features some interesting Zhentarim politics in her second brimstone angels book.
Also, I wouldn't count the Shades out. They clearly had survivors post the Herald. I think the big difference for the Shadovar is that they will no longer over shadow all of the other evil groups.
The Red wizards of Thay have been pretty active in official adventures lately. They have a role in Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle and Scourge of the Sword Coast. The Dead in Thay adventure features the red wizards. There are two major factions presented in the adventure: the Szass Tam faction and the Thayan rebels who are interested in ousting Tam.
As far as other evil groups that have been mentioned the Arcane Brotherhood are covered in the Legacy of the Crystal Shard adventure. The duergar are shown following Deep duerra in the Scourge of the Sword coast. Dead in Thay features several chosen of evil deities including Auril, Bhaal, Talona, Ghaunadaur and Ibrandul.
I would really encourage you to pick up a pdf of one of the new adventures and try it out. If you want to run a campaign in 5e without having the setting book, Murder in Baldur's Gate, Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle and Scourge of the Sword give you from Daggerford to Baldur's gate in enough detail to run a nice campaign. You mix pregenerated adventures with stuff of your own making and still have a fairly developed little corner of Faerun to pull from. Personally, I am hoping to find out what happened to the Twist Rune.
Pretty much this. The campaign guides that come with Murder in Baldur's Gate and the Icewind Dale adventures are well worth the investment.
I've been toying with separate factions for the CotD for awhile now, and this just gives me more toys to play with. The up-and coming Zhents is really tying nicely into my current campaign, and gives me a great reason to pull out my 2E copy of "Ruins of Zhentil Keep."
At present, my PC's are in Skullport, and should they survive, there is a certain Drow faction (in my world) that wants to gain control of the Ruins of Zhentil Keep, and my PC's might become a spoke in her wheel of plans.
Thay has a ton of potential right now, possibly going back to its roots.
The Cult of the Dragon information might become a antagonist or an ally, again, depending on my PC's decisions.
Shade is greatly diminished, yes, but still powerful. And some of the common folk may not have heard yet that they have lost power. So (again, this is my home campaign. Thankfully, my PC's don't visit here. ) right now, the various Shade groups that are still abroad are trying to establish an independent reputation and become self sufficient before people realize that they don't have daddy to run home to.
Anyway, sorry for rambling about my campaign, but I did that to demonstrate that the changes being made have a ton of potential to add flavor and plot twists to current games. It's going to be fun, at least for me.  |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 02:31:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
Candlekeep has been dedicated to "detraction" of the setting since the advent of 4e. A cursory review of the posts in the last seven years supports this.
Many 'Scribes' have indicated here that they, the Rupert included, would "vote with their money", and not support the setting.
There have been numerous reports from the current design team regarding catering to their detractors.
I occasionally post here to express my opinion, as I have with my post above. As you have stated, Rupert, you encourage statements of opinion in this forum.
So, you're welcome.
You see that is how capitalism works. I did not purchase anything beyond 4e core once I saw what occurred. Many like me voted with our wallets, and I am glad we did for we got a change from a game system I did not like, and a realms that was no longer recognizable. So it worked. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 04:09:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18021
Opinions do not require justification... however, in this case, my opinion is demonstrably true.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Saying you will vote with your money is not at all the same as encouraging people to bash the setting. I do support the setting -- I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I just didn't support the changes of 4E or their reasoning, so my gaming money went elsewhere.
A cursory review of the posts here will also show many, many pro-4E discussions.
And yes, I do encourage statements of opinion. Stating something demonstrably false like we encourage people to attack designers is not an opinion.
Nope, your opinion is not demonstrably true. People stated their own opinions. Nowhere in there does anyone encourage attacking designers or the setting. So your statement that we encourage that remains false. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 04:12:44
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| Oh sure totally... because human behavior is never influenced by the prevailing views of their in-group. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 05:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18021
Opinions do not require justification... however, in this case, my opinion is demonstrably true.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Saying you will vote with your money is not at all the same as encouraging people to bash the setting. I do support the setting -- I wouldn't be here if I didn't. I just didn't support the changes of 4E or their reasoning, so my gaming money went elsewhere.
A cursory review of the posts here will also show many, many pro-4E discussions.
And yes, I do encourage statements of opinion. Stating something demonstrably false like we encourage people to attack designers is not an opinion.
Nope, your opinion is not demonstrably true. People stated their own opinions. Nowhere in there does anyone encourage attacking designers or the setting. So your statement that we encourage that remains false.
I think Thorn's ire is about 6 years too late. In the early days of the "war" (June/July 08') the animosity for the design team of the Realms and D&D was pretty huge. The changes and their creators were called some pretty harsh things (no one remembers Rich Baker must be stopped or people "accidentally" referring 4th edition as $E?) that did nothing but create toxicity in the forums (here, WotCs, Paizo, ENworld, RPG.net, etc....).
But for a long while now the places have been getting better. The Mods here, IMO, do a decent job of keeping the place nice and free without angst against those who like 4E or possibly 5e. |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 06:05:20
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This thread has gotten a little uncomfortable.
I'm not really interested in edition-warring or bashing WOTC designers/authors. Nor am I interested in bashing other fans.
And I definately don't think disagreement over creative direction, etc. should become personal attacks on people.
My initial questions was about what we know about WOTC's plan for the Realms in 5E.
Can we please talk about that?
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 06:50:44
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For 5E it appears the core rulebooks books will be "cross pollinated" with numerous mentions of different campaign worlds, but for the Player's Handbook WotC appear to be using only Realms gods for the list of deities (if what I've read on ENWorld is correct).
I don't like seeing crossover like that. I've always preferred the Realms stay out of the core rulebooks and associated non-setting splatbooks.
But I can see the value in piquing the interest of new-to-D&D players, as well as giving them some familiar reference points when they get a hold of a 5E Realms book for the first time.
Curious what others think about this strategy, as it relates to the OP's question. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 03 Jul 2014 06:51:28 |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 06:52:21
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| What damage or mistakes made by the design team which culminated in the 4e Realms do you feel need repaired? |
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Topic |
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Has WOTC committed to fixing the Realms in 5E
