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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jun 2014 : 12:06:45
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I was very disappointed in how the ssrinshee was written in this novel. She is supposed to arguably be one of the mightiest wizard of the planet and a chosen of Mystra and the seldarine. Where was her high magic ? The spells of such might that they were only to be used in defense of a elven realm or elders life? She was suppose to be the elven version of the simbol! I saw nothing that elevated her above a hedge-wizard except the act of seizing the minds of two other chosen and mind riding elminster.alone she should've been able to face larloch on a even footing which even elminster couldn't do. I won't spoil the book,but from her first appearance to her last she was a terrible disappointment.i mean for crying out loud even severel summoned aid from arvandor during his crusade.a spell I know is represented as a HighMagic spell too!! Spells that grind away man-made materials and flesh but leave nature untouched except for revitalizing it. All I ask is Where was the might she was suppose to have after 5 thousand years of wielding ART even against dragons fiends and drow armies?
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I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 05:04:29
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| Did you miss the part where she pimp slapped Larloch out of Myth Drannor? If anything, she was overpowered. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 05:41:17
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One thing I didn't really understand in the story was this:
(spoilers, so highlight to read):
Why did the Shrinshee wait until the elves were on the verge of final defeat (with the great majority of Myth Drannor's defenders dead) before ripping into the mercenaries?
The elves had plenty of warning that an absolutely massive, unstoppable army was building up against them, so presumably they knew their chances of victory were slim at the very best; so if she'd really wanted to save Myth Drannor (not to mention the lives of thousands of its people), she should have attacked the mercenary army a lot earlier than she did...... |
Edited by - BenN on 23 Jun 2014 06:17:35 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 16:10:24
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Ah, that one I can answer. This comes straight from Ed, in response to very much the same question from me that you just posed:
The Srinshee, like Elminster, plays a "long game," looking ahead decades and centuries, and working towards events that far in the future (often by small, subtle manipulations that don't provoke the stiff resistance or violent reactions that open warfare or spell-duels or blowing up things do).
She was busy trying to short up Myth Drannor's mythal so that it could aid the outnumbered elven defenders in holding off the far more numerous besiegers, and at the same time protect the mythal against the attempts of individual shadovar agents to harness and/or twist it to their ends.
She knew how locally dangerous to the Weave (which is the means by which the shadovar enact their ends on others, and which holds aloft the flying city that is their home) any attempt to destroy or drain the mythal would be, and misread the ongoing "try to conquer or plunder, but not destroy" shadovar tactics (besieging Myth Drannor instead of just trying to destroy it) as meaning the shadovar wanted to gain control of the mythal, not destroy or drain it. In short, the shadovar were more foolish/crazy/obedient to Shar's desire to sew destruction more than to "win" than she thought they were.
When she realized what might be about to happen, she decided the best thing she could do for the elves was salvage as many defenders' lives as she could, by helping them in the fighting, so she reluctantly abandoned her Weave-work to turn to fighting. Just as Elminster reluctantly abandoned his Weave-work, to fight.
Think of working with the Weave as the ultimate exhilaration and at the same time relaxation and fulfillment that a certain sort of archmage can find. Like a musician "lost in the moment," enjoying the music as they play it.
Then think of the weariness of El and the Srinshee, who've both lived for a long, long, LONG time, of having to leave off doing that to go and fight . . . one more @#$%! time.
So that's what Ed had to say. This sort of answers jerrod, too. Most of the High Magic he was hoping to see either takes too long for the situation at hand, or is apt to do more harm than good with the Weave unstable and so much energy (the wards of Candlekeep) loose and "on the move." It would be like juggling explosives next to a raging forest fire, in a high wind . . .
One of the things I've noticed in the recent kvetching here at the Keep about THE HERALD is that many posters disagree with how various characters were portrayed, because it doesn't match their personal conception of those characters. (The "overpowered" comment posted in this thread is just one example of this; as someone who's read about the Srinshee from her first appearance and seen her in action in the Realms over the years with Ed as DM, I not only disagree, I personally think the poster can't have paid sufficient attention to all that's been written about the Srinshee, in the Grand History and the Cormanthor/Cormanthyr game lore, to say nothing of "Tears So White," to form that opinion.)
Holding one's own conception is not only inevitable, it's fair enough - - but almost every character in the book, except some of the Princes, were created by Ed and have been written about by him down the years, so I think HIS conception of them trumps others. And this culmination of the Sundering was a "big" event in many lives, that could well spur personal change or reveal it. Characters in the Realms like real people, change over time - - heck, that's one of the keys to good novel writing: character growth and change. Ed has written some lore about how Manshoon is changing that scribes should see eventually.
To paraphrase Ed, I hope this helps, by way of explanation...
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 23 Jun 2014 16:14:41 |
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Mothor
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2014 : 20:06:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ah, that one I can answer. This comes straight from Ed, in response to very much the same question from me that you just posed:
The Srinshee, like Elminster, plays a "long game," looking ahead decades and centuries, and working towards events that far in the future (often by small, subtle manipulations that don't provoke the stiff resistance or violent reactions that open warfare or spell-duels or blowing up things do).
She was busy trying to short up Myth Drannor's mythal so that it could aid the outnumbered elven defenders in holding off the far more numerous besiegers, and at the same time protect the mythal against the attempts of individual shadovar agents to harness and/or twist it to their ends.
She knew how locally dangerous to the Weave (which is the means by which the shadovar enact their ends on others, and which holds aloft the flying city that is their home) any attempt to destroy or drain the mythal would be, and misread the ongoing "try to conquer or plunder, but not destroy" shadovar tactics (besieging Myth Drannor instead of just trying to destroy it) as meaning the shadovar wanted to gain control of the mythal, not destroy or drain it. In short, the shadovar were more foolish/crazy/obedient to Shar's desire to sew destruction more than to "win" than she thought they were.
When she realized what might be about to happen, she decided the best thing she could do for the elves was salvage as many defenders' lives as she could, by helping them in the fighting, so she reluctantly abandoned her Weave-work to turn to fighting. Just as Elminster reluctantly abandoned his Weave-work, to fight.
Think of working with the Weave as the ultimate exhilaration and at the same time relaxation and fulfillment that a certain sort of archmage can find. Like a musician "lost in the moment," enjoying the music as they play it.
Then think of the weariness of El and the Srinshee, who've both lived for a long, long, LONG time, of having to leave off doing that to go and fight . . . one more @#$%! time.
So that's what Ed had to say. This sort of answers jerrod, too. Most of the High Magic he was hoping to see either takes too long for the situation at hand, or is apt to do more harm than good with the Weave unstable and so much energy (the wards of Candlekeep) loose and "on the move." It would be like juggling explosives next to a raging forest fire, in a high wind . . .
One of the things I've noticed in the recent kvetching here at the Keep about THE HERALD is that many posters disagree with how various characters were portrayed, because it doesn't match their personal conception of those characters. (The "overpowered" comment posted in this thread is just one example of this; as someone who's read about the Srinshee from her first appearance and seen her in action in the Realms over the years with Ed as DM, I not only disagree, I personally think the poster can't have paid sufficient attention to all that's been written about the Srinshee, in the Grand History and the Cormanthor/Cormanthyr game lore, to say nothing of "Tears So White," to form that opinion.)
Holding one's own conception is not only inevitable, it's fair enough - - but almost every character in the book, except some of the Princes, were created by Ed and have been written about by him down the years, so I think HIS conception of them trumps others. And this culmination of the Sundering was a "big" event in many lives, that could well spur personal change or reveal it. Characters in the Realms like real people, change over time - - heck, that's one of the keys to good novel writing: character growth and change. Ed has written some lore about how Manshoon is changing that scribes should see eventually.
To paraphrase Ed, I hope this helps, by way of explanation...
love to all,
THO
Hmmm, didn't Srinshee use some sort of sacrificial spell to give all of her power to Elminster? Maybe I read it wrong but after seeing how many posts are there regarding how hard she owned Larloch it left me a bit confused...
And speaking of which, IF Elminster got such a power boost from her does it mean that it is permanent or was it only to be used as a super spell to get rid of Larloch? I've got the feeling that she restored all for his former power and then some but I could have interpreted it wrong.
Personally I think it was a great way for her to exit the stage by having one last grand show and though it saddens me a bit to see such a major villain as Telamont die for good(though I think there was some chance of him returning as some of his deceased sons were hinted to) I guess it was for the best. |
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BenN
Senior Scribe
Japan
382 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2014 : 00:39:18
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THO, thanks very much for the explanation. Its great to hear from 'the horse's mouth' (not an insult, really!), and good to know that you had the same question for Ed as me!
I'm interested in reading about what happens next with Cormanthor, so I hope we learn more in forthcoming novels, and of course the 5e FRCG. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2014 : 20:46:20
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| So what happened to the Srinshee? I got the impression she died. Did she go to Arvandor? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 18:47:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mothor
[quote]Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ah, that one I can answer. This comes straight from Ed, in response to very much the same question from me that you just posed:
The Srinshee, like Elminster, plays a "long game," looking ahead decades and centuries, and working towards events that far in the future (often by small, subtle manipulations that don't provoke the stiff resistance or violent reactions that open warfare or spell-duels or blowing up things do).
She was busy trying to short up Myth Drannor's mythal so that it could aid the outnumbered elven defenders in holding off the far more numerous besiegers, and at the same time protect the mythal against the attempts of individual shadovar agents to harness and/or twist it to their ends.
She knew how locally dangerous to the Weave (which is the means by which the shadovar enact their ends on others, and which holds aloft the flying city that is their home) any attempt to destroy or drain the mythal would be, and misread the ongoing "try to conquer or plunder, but not destroy" shadovar tactics (besieging Myth Drannor instead of just trying to destroy it) as meaning the shadovar wanted to gain control of the mythal, not destroy or drain it. In short, the shadovar were more foolish/crazy/obedient to Shar's desire to sew destruction more than to "win" than she thought they were.
When she realized what might be about to happen, she decided the best thing she could do for the elves was salvage as many defenders' lives as she could, by helping them in the fighting, so she reluctantly abandoned her Weave-work to turn to fighting. Just as Elminster reluctantly abandoned his Weave-work, to fight.
Think of working with the Weave as the ultimate exhilaration and at the same time relaxation and fulfillment that a certain sort of archmage can find. Like a musician "lost in the moment," enjoying the music as they play it.
Then think of the weariness of El and the Srinshee, who've both lived for a long, long, LONG time, of having to leave off doing that to go and fight . . . one more @#$%! time.
So that's what Ed had to say. This sort of answers jerrod, too. Most of the High Magic he was hoping to see either takes too long for the situation at hand, or is apt to do more harm than good with the Weave unstable and so much energy (the wards of Candlekeep) loose and "on the move." It would be like juggling explosives next to a raging forest fire, in a high wind . . .
One of the things I've noticed in the recent kvetching here at the Keep about THE HERALD is that many posters disagree with how various characters were portrayed, because it doesn't match their personal conception of those characters. (The "overpowered" comment posted in this thread is just one example of this; as someone who's read about the Srinshee from her first appearance and seen her in action in the Realms over the years with Ed as DM, I not only disagree, I personally think the poster can't have paid sufficient attention to all that's been written about the Srinshee, in the Grand History and the Cormanthor/Cormanthyr game lore, to say nothing of "Tears So White," to form that opinion.)
Holding one's own conception is not only inevitable, it's fair enough - - but almost every character in the book, except some of the Princes, were created by Ed and have been written about by him down the years, so I think HIS conception of them trumps others. And this culmination of the Sundering was a "big" event in many lives, that could well spur personal change or reveal it. Characters in the Realms like real people, change over time - - heck, that's one of the keys to good novel writing: character growth and change. Ed has written some lore about how Manshoon is changing that scribes should see eventually.
To paraphrase Ed, I hope this helps, by way of explanation...
love to all,
THO
Just because Ed invented or has written about characters it doesn't mean he is always right. If the overwhelming opinion is that characters act differently to how they normally act or should behave then surely the only conclusion is that it's an error or misjudgement on the authors part?
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Edited by - Arcanus on 26 Jun 2014 18:52:49 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 19:19:13
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In some other world, perhaps.
But in this one, fictional creativity isn't a democracy. If you don't like what an author does in their stories, you're free to abandon reading them. You're not free to take control away from the author (copyright). Ed may have ceded control of the Realms to TSR, but he did so under conditions, and one of them is whatever he writes or says about any aspect or detail of the Realms is right. It's canon lore. If you don't like that, sorry, but that's the way it is.
I'm not saying Ed's judgment is always right. Yet I've not seen any "overwhelming opinion" that he was wrong about the characters portrayed in The Herald, either - just the posted opinions of some scribes, many of whom seem not to have read ALL the published writings about various of the characters. Our lovely Lady Hooded's point isn't that Ed is always right, it's that she doesn't agree, from her own extensive Realms reading, that the characters were portrayed wrongly.
You can personally pick and choose which authors or books you like the most and accept what's said in them over other authors or books, but you can't do that for other readers, just yourself. And any disagreement over character details and portrayals ignores the "unreliable narrator" concept enshrined in all published Realmslore from the outset.
So if several loud voices say the sky is black and the moon is green, we're supposed to agree with them because they claim without any substantiation to be in the majority, despite what we see with our own eyes about the sky and the moon?
Certainly doesn't seem to me like accepting that is "surely the only conclusion."
BB |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2014 : 20:26:22
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Canon doesn't apply in this case. I am a little tired of hearing ed this and ed that. Ed invented the realms yes. He sold it and ever since then he has only been a part of fleshing the world out. I can't deny that he is prolific in doing that but he will tell you himself that he is only a part (and has been for many years) of the realms of today.
4e was an example of how an entire world was badly written and was behaving not as it should. It was very unpopular and disliked by the majority, am I wrong in saying that?
I am only speaking for myself of course, my earlier post wasn't really directed at Ed, I was merely making a point in general.
In future try not to point out obvious facts about what I am free and what I am not free to do. I am already aware of those things.
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 17:38:00
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Yeah, the way in which Greenwood presents the characters in "The Herald" is staggeringly bad. One of the most cringe worthy examples goes like this.
El: "Alusrtiel and Laeral, what are you guys doing here in the basement of Candlekeep?"
2/7: "We are looking for secret books to destroy Candlekeep."
El: "Er... what?"
2/7: "Yeah, we think that Blackshaft wanted us to do that so an evil shadowy figure can't use the Weave-Force locked in the 'Keeps Wards to destroy the World, so we're destroying the 'Keep first"
El: "Sha-Hoodoo-Boom-Boom-Cacoon Spell!" (El enspells the girls)
2/7: "Spell of Drop a Ceiling on Elminster.... Haaaa!" (2/7 drops a ceiling on El)
(Elminster is teleported to safety by Larloch)
Larloch: "Hey bro, I'm trying to save the world. Wanna team-up?"
El: "Yeah bro, sounds good."
Larloch: "Cool. You channel the Weave-Force to me, then I'll put the Weave-Force back in the Weave... Promise."
Elminster (always playing the long game): "Cool, sounds good."
(El and Larloch teleport back to the 'Keep, El channels the Weave-Force to Larloch.)
Larloch: Fooled you, noob! I'm taking this Weave-Force and I'm going to be a Godd! W00t! (Teleports away.)
2/7: El, you just gave Larloch the Weave-force we have been trying to destroy by hiding in a basement for 100 years! Now he has half the Macguffin he needs to destroy the World.
El: Oops! Well, I'm stubborn and pulled a boner, sorry!
2/7: Classic Elminster!
El and 2/7: Ha ha ha lol lol ha! (Everyone laughs) |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 17:52:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
2/7: El, you just gave Larloch the Weave-force we have been trying to destroy by hiding in a basement for 100 years! Now he has half the Macguffin he needs to destroy the World.
So, Larloch's plan was to become a god and it involved blowing Toril (or large part of it) up, or risking doing so in the process?
He always struck me as very calculate with his mysterious goals and motivations ...
Also wasn't he in a sort of neutral relationship with followers of Mystra, deciding to not attack them because he only wanted to perfect his magic and be left alone, or something like that?
I'm curious why he decided to get involved like that at the end. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 27 Jun 2014 18:09:17 |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2014 : 18:24:16
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| Yep. Larloch's portal network thinggee was associated with the Weave anchor thingees so he could get the whole Weave-Force network mapped so he could take the Weave-Force of Candlekeep and Myth Drannor, which is supposedly a significant portion of Toril's total Weave-Force. The Weave-Force of either of these two sites was supposedly enough Weave-Force to annihilate Toril, according to Elminster. |
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Elsenrail
Seeker
Poland
72 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2014 : 21:10:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Canon doesn't apply in this case. I am a little tired of hearing ed this and ed that. Ed invented the realms yes. He sold it and ever since then he has only been a part of fleshing the world out. I can't deny that he is prolific in doing that but he will tell you himself that he is only a part (and has been for many years) of the realms of today.
I know there are many Ed's fans, but I back what is said above. Ceratinly, Ed is very imiaginative and I' glad he created the Realms, but they are not his anymore to o as he sees fit. I know it is fantasy, but please give us some realism. Unfortunately, writing novels is not something he does well. Just look at reviews on amazon. It tells enough. :(
I'm recently reading "The House of Serpents" and I love the trilogy. The story and characters are belevable. Ed's character are not. |
Edited by - Elsenrail on 28 Jun 2014 21:11:59 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 02:50:15
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House of Serpents was good  |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 12:35:03
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First - I've not yet read the herald, but will so no comments on its content. My response is for the sadly ignorant few who seem to think that their opinion of what the realms is and should be is more valid that the Realms' creator and primary driving force. As for the great "canon" debate - sorry to break it to you, but Ed's word is final here. Whine about his choices all you want but he wins by default.
And I'm sorry but "Writing novels is not something he does well" - come on are you serious? Ed's writing is the entire reason anyone here, be it old goats who've been reading it since the 80s or newcomers like yourself, is a fan of the Realms. He wrote it - its characters, its cities, its monsters, its gods, its food, its money, its magic. Others have helped in that effort and some even in very major ways, but if you don't like Ed's writing then you're in the wrong place I'd say. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 14:22:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
First - I've not yet read the herald, but will so no comments on its content. My response is for the sadly ignorant few who seem to think that their opinion of what the realms is and should be is more valid that the Realms' creator and primary driving force. As for the great "canon" debate - sorry to break it to you, but Ed's word is final here. Whine about his choices all you want but he wins by default.
And I'm sorry but "Writing novels is not something he does well" - come on are you serious? Ed's writing is the entire reason anyone here, be it old goats who've been reading it since the 80s or newcomers like yourself, is a fan of the Realms. He wrote it - its characters, its cities, its monsters, its gods, its food, its money, its magic. Others have helped in that effort and some even in very major ways, but if you don't like Ed's writing then you're in the wrong place I'd say.
The opinions expressed here, both pro and con, are equally valid. For myself Ed is very hit or miss with his writing. Some of his works I cherish, others I will never read again. Nobody is arguing that Ed isn't the most creative and lore maker of the realms, just that this particular book was disappointing to some of us.
Given your long history with Ed you are naturally protective towards him but I will remind you of some words he himself spoke-
I don't mind if people complain because it shows that they care. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 15:22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
And I'm sorry but "Writing novels is not something he does well" - come on are you serious? Ed's writing is the entire reason anyone here, be it old goats who've been reading it since the 80s or newcomers like yourself, is a fan of the Realms. He wrote it - its characters, its cities, its monsters, its gods, its food, its money, its magic. Others have helped in that effort and some even in very major ways, but if you don't like Ed's writing then you're in the wrong place I'd say.
I'm one of the folks that's been here for the long haul; I got my copy of the OGB shortly before the announcement that there was going to be a 2E FRCS boxed set.
Ed's novel-writing talent is subjective; it's based on personal opinion. Some people love his books. Me, of the books of his I've read, I've only really enjoyed a couple of them. His novels just don't work for me.
That said, I think he is absolutely peerless as a world-builder.
And that's the point I'm getting at: while we all are here because of what Ed has written, there is a hell of a difference between reading a sourcebook and reading a novel.
I'll happily peruse an Ed sourcebook any day of the week, and a lot of my fave Realms sourcebooks are ones that he has written. On the flipside, none of his novels list among my FR faves.
My main issue with his novels is the focus he gives to showing everything else that's happening. For me, it's just too much. Yes, I understand that at any given moment, there are cabals gathering and plots being executed, all over the setting.
What bothers me is when one person or group, in the span of hours or even minutes, happens upon five or six of these secret assignations. It gives the feeling that everyone in the Realms spends a large portion of their time plotting, and it also makes me feel like I've walked into the middle of a movie, and I'm trying to figure out what happened before I came in. I'd prefer to see far less of the "here a plot, there a plot, everywhere a plot!" thing going on in novels -- it works well in sourcebooks*, when each plot can be handled individually, but poorly in novels, where we get a barrage of out-of-context snippets.
If a character is running for their lives, and is bursting thru buildings and cellars and such in a city or castle, I'd expect to see more scenes of people just working or living, and less plotting. Seeing a single conspiracy is fine, but when someone goes from conspiracy to conspiracy, you have to wonder why all these people are meeting in one readily accessible spot and why they're not posting lookouts.
So not liking Ed's novels does not equate to disliking everything he has written.
*It mostly works well in sourcebooks, but there are exceptions. I didn't care for how the Neverwinter Campaign Setting had all these differing power groups, working at cross purposes, with each of them having infiltrated all the others, all in one relatively small corner of the world. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2014 : 22:07:13
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| For the record my opinion about the lady oluveira WAS based on reading ALL the books she has appeared In.ive been buying forgotten realms since the late 80s with my allowance and have continued to do so up until this moment. So I think I probably have SOME valid "understanding" of ED's characters. I love his source books,but his novels tend to be lacking in some areas.i feel that after pumping us up with how mighty the ssrinshee was..(the simbils equal said elminster) she should've been more helpful in war to her supposed homeland. After all the simbul made ground meat out of devil armies in Hell! Another thing I notice while spending nearly 30ysr collecting forgotten realms books (masked) is that ladies seem to get suicidal after dealing with elminster. Do I error in that observation as well?#128527; |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 03:15:23
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So you've read Cormanthyr, Fall of Myth Drannor, Elminster in Myth Drannor and Tears So White.
The first two are sourcebooks that give you her stats and the last two are written by Ed and actually give you the only real representation of the Srinshee's character. And yet Ed's portrayal of her in the Herald is 'wrong' ...
Like every fan and reader you are entitled to dislike someone else's creative work. Heck I dislike many aspects of the published Realms, but I've never confused my own thoughts and wants on a topic with value judgments that are ultimately totally and utterly subjective and personal. Ed's portrayal of the Srinshee didn't float your boat. We got it. Just how that translates to a statement that Ed in some way has made a mistake or not written up a character he created 'properly' utterly escapes me. In reality it is the highest form of no responsibility fan arrogance. Write anything you want up for the Realms and post it here. After I've dismantled it in my arrogance in about five minutes flat, you may then understand how posts like yours are anathema to a healthy FR community.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 03:31:45
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| Wow, this thread is getting heated. Let's calm down a bit here... |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 04:05:29
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
So you've read Cormanthyr, Fall of Myth Drannor, Elminster in Myth Drannor and Tears So White.
The first two are sourcebooks that give you her stats and the last two are written by Ed and actually give you the only real representation of the Srinshee's character. And yet Ed's portrayal of her in the Herald is 'wrong' ...
Like every fan and reader you are entitled to dislike someone else's creative work. Heck I dislike many aspects of the published Realms, but I've never confused my own thoughts and wants on a topic with value judgments that are ultimately totally and utterly subjective and personal. Ed's portrayal of the Srinshee didn't float your boat. We got it. Just how that translates to a statement that Ed in some way has made a mistake or not written up a character he created 'properly' utterly escapes me. In reality it is the highest form of no responsibility fan arrogance. Write anything you want up for the Realms and post it here. After I've dismantled it in my arrogance in about five minutes flat, you may then understand how posts like yours are anathema to a healthy FR community.
-- George Krashos
Its not arrogance to criticise a novel or the behaviour of a well known character. Nor is it a personal attack. Saying you write something and I will take it apart is a little obtuse. We don't write the novels, 'they' do. As such they are open to good and bad opinions about the stories that are published. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 04:52:48
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Absolutely correct Arcanus. So let's just stick to providing an opinion on and criticising the content rather than the author. Once we've got that one sorted, we can then proceed to make informed commentary on the creative endeavours of others. As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 09:43:29
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I for one am forced to wonder how long the Chosen who have been laid low during Mystra's latest absence will stay dead. The last little bit of the novel shows her restoring Vangy with ease. Its been done before with most of them in the course of a single story. Really the only powerful NPC that got laid low in the Herald i expect to stay that way is Telemont, since El stayed to make sure he was gone and Shar is not the kind to bring her failed servants back. Dove can be brought back with a simple raise dead spell - so that's a nothing for her to do. The others are a bit more stretched but i can see the Srinshee popping up from the shadows again some day, and even they Simbul - both of whom died in basically the same way. I also would vote for Sylune to be made whole... she's gotten entirely too insubstantial a ghost in the weave for my liking. other rumblings I've read hereabouts suggest the Dark Maiden is coming back so why not their shared chosen as well? Finally - and I know its a stretch - they should bring back Khelben, bringing us full circle to before 4th ever started :D
P.S. I don't imagine Larloch is totally destroyed either. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 15:36:28
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quote:
As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.
-- George Krashos
Oh I am with you on that George, I'm sure any story written in the realms would be much better than any effort that I could muster up. |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 16:08:19
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| Wow George K., you must have really liked "The Herald". |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 05:56:18
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| I wanted to scream when the witch-queen....#128546; |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 11:54:14
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Absolutely correct Arcanus. So let's just stick to providing an opinion on and criticising the content rather than the author. Once we've got that one sorted, we can then proceed to make informed commentary on the creative endeavours of others. As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.
-- George Krashos
Could not agree more Krash - as much as I always think my opinions are always the right ones, even I must admit that I am a terrible writer and on my best day could not produce anything approaching a well written novel. I'm guessing the same holds true for most people. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 00:40:41
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Ed's novels aren't the best in the world for me either. I like them well enough, but I don't LOVE them like I do some others. But that said, there are a couple of caveats.
1. Ed, like other Realms authors, has limited time to write a book. Unlike say, George R.R. Martin, they can't write five books over the course of 20+ years.
2. They also have limited space to write their stories. Again, unlike George R.R. Martin, Realms novels aren't written with a 900+ page count.
My point is, Ed is limited as to what and how much he can write for a novel...and that has to be taken into account. Now I will make this point in light of Wooley's initial comments. He (Ed) could spend less time and word count writing about multiple conspiracies and put more effort into the actual story the novel is about. But that's just my personal opinion. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 19:55:34
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Ed's novels are difficult for me. I actually really enjoy reading Crown of Fire and Elminster in Hell. I have been wanting to read the Elminster Making of a Mage series for a while, I've heard it is good too.
Elminster in hell is more like dozens of short stories as Elminster gives up his memories, but they are very fun to read. And the Simbul blasting things away is great too. And Halastar.
For me the best Realms author will always be Jeff Grubb (Azure Bonds and The Wyvenr's Spur are AMAZING); he combined Ed's lore building power with a sharp writing style. I think better than Bob or Elaine even at Realms writing, both of whom are also awesome.
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 07:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Absolutely correct Arcanus. So let's just stick to providing an opinion on and criticising the content rather than the author. Once we've got that one sorted, we can then proceed to make informed commentary on the creative endeavours of others. As an aside, and likely unsurprisingly, I struggle with opinions and commentary that contain the subtext "If I was doing/writing X, I would do it properly and it would be ever so much better because I really understand this topic/charcter that you've created, in fact, better than you do ...". Give me a break.
-- George Krashos
Could not agree more Krash - as much as I always think my opinions are always the right ones, even I must admit that I am a terrible writer and on my best day could not produce anything approaching a well written novel. I'm guessing the same holds true for most people.
I agree with both Mr. Krashos and The Masked Mage on this. |
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The herald and the the ssrinshee
