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Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe

USA
268 Posts

Posted - 18 Feb 2004 :  01:31:05  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I've been doing research for my Damara campaign, and noticed something unusual. In both the FR Atlas (printed version) and the FR Trailmap, there is a ruin in the middle of Narfell called Mintas Rhelgor. It is conspicuously missing from the map in FR9 The Bloodstone Lands.

I am assuming that this is a ruin of the former Narfell empire, but I was wondering if anyone has any lore about the place. Is it a city, a dungeon, a fortress, a taco stand?

Along similar lines, does anyone know what the capital of the former Narfell empire was?

"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
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The Sage
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Posted - 18 Feb 2004 :  13:46:03  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what I can remember, Mintas Rhelgor was a Nar fortress. I've never read anything more about it, which would suggest that very little has actually been detailed regarding the place. Even the 3e Unapproachable East tome contained little.

Bildoobaris was the 'unofficial' capital of Narfell.

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Brother Ezra
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Posted - 18 Feb 2004 :  19:28:31  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I thought Bildoobaris was really nothing more than a spot where the modern-day Nars have their trade fair each year. Was Bildoobaris in existence during the Imperial Nar years?

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The Sage
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Posted - 19 Feb 2004 :  09:38:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is, hence the term 'unofficial'...

For the Nars at least, Bildoobaris serves it's function as 'capital' just fine. According to the Unapproachable East tome, the 'city' of Bildoobaris has existed in some way, shape, or form for a very long time, so yes, I would say that it existed in some way during Imperial Nar years.

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Brother Ezra
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Posted - 19 Feb 2004 :  15:58:12  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. That would imply that the Nars had some nomadic elements in their society even during the days of the empire.

A thought and a question occur to me now: The original founders of Narfell were uncivilized nomadic folk recruited by Mulhorand and Unther to fight against the orcs during the Orcgate War. After the war, this group returned to their homeland with ideas about civilization and empires after witnessing the marvels of Mulhorand. The Nar empire grew from this. Is it possible that a subset of their culture rejected the "civilizing" influence of the returning veterans, and continued in their nomadic ways, part of the empire and yet seperate? Their descendants would be the modern-day Nars. All trace of the "civilized" Nars would have been wiped out during the final battle with Raumathar.

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The Sage
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Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  13:06:29  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's certainly possible, especially considering the links you've just mentioned.

Although, I've never read anything that either supports or contracts what you are saying, it definitely adds an extra element of historical fact to a portion of the Realms sorely lacking a sourcebook of it's own...

But then, I do fine it a little difficult to believe that two near disparate cultures could exist side-by-side with relatively little incident...Maybe we should expand upon this so more...?

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Brother Ezra
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Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  20:09:28  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, let's take it one step at a time. We know from the Horde boxed set that nomadic tribes in modern day Narfell, Ashanath and Rashemen were recruited by Mulhorand to fight against the orcs during the Orcgate War. These tribesmen later returned to their homelands with ideas they had from seeing Mulhorandi civilization.

The veterans return home and describe the power and might of the Mulhorandi empire, and eventually convince a large percentage of the tribes to make a permanent settlement and give agriculture a shot. Although the growing season is short in Narfell, and the soil not so hot for most crops, they do find a happy medium with certain hearty grains and livestock.

The most important thing they would have brought back with them was the power of summoning magic...

Just out of curiousity, Sage, what part of Oz are you in? I lived in Sydney for about 3 months in 2000.

"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  20:24:50  Show Profile  Visit Shadowlord's Homepage  Send Shadowlord an AOL message Send Shadowlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I could answer that for you. Sage once told me he lives in a costal town called Perth (spelling, Sage?). Its close to Sidney, I believe.

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Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  04:47:29  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perth, eh? That's clear on the other coast of Australia, IIRC. Didn't get to visit there, sad to say.

"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
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The Sage
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Australia
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Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  05:14:36  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brother Ezra

Well, let's take it one step at a time. We know from the Horde boxed set that nomadic tribes in modern day Narfell, Ashanath and Rashemen were recruited by Mulhorand to fight against the orcs during the Orcgate War. These tribesmen later returned to their homelands with ideas they had from seeing Mulhorandi civilization.

The veterans return home and describe the power and might of the Mulhorandi empire, and eventually convince a large percentage of the tribes to make a permanent settlement and give agriculture a shot. Although the growing season is short in Narfell, and the soil not so hot for most crops, they do find a happy medium with certain hearty grains and livestock.

The most important thing they would have brought back with them was the power of summoning magic...

Just out of curiousity, Sage, what part of Oz are you in? I lived in Sydney for about 3 months in 2000.

Hmm...it's definitely worth some consideration. Although, I don't think the necessity for the power of summoning magic would have been too great too quickly. Remember, these are people who have had to recreate their society to fit the environmental standards now prevailent in the area they choose to settle in. The study of magic is difficult enough, even given what they may have picked up before they returned.

The practice of summoning magic should be considered almost impossible to master by these tribespeople, especially at this early stage in their development as a society.

Before I continue any further, I want to do a little more research...I'll be back sometime today...

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The Sage
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Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  05:18:11  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brother Ezra said -
quote:
Just out of curiousity, Sage, what part of Oz are you in? I lived in Sydney for about 3 months in 2000.
I live in the 'city' of Perth, on the south-western coast of Australia. Although, I've also lived in a number of other cities across the country (Sydney for example) for a few months each year thanks to my job, and to a lesser extent, my studies.

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Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  16:32:43  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You're right. The magic they would have brought back after the wars would have been the type that would have allowed them to re-organize their society from nomadic to agrarian in the most useful way. Maybe enchantment or divination would have been their first dalliances?

I would think that even before the war, the tribesmen would have had some knowledge of magic at it's most basic level, maybe totemistic or some form of blood magic maybe?

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The Sage
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Posted - 22 Feb 2004 :  12:16:16  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would assume that divination magics would probably by the safest guess, at least at this early stage in the tribes development. Real-life tribal societies have demonstrated time and again the positive value the tribes place on knowledge that comes from tribal shamans and their 'abilities' to foresee future events, or uncover hidden knowledge.

The Nars view on magic would hardly be that different...

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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

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Posted - 23 Feb 2004 :  01:13:17  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And after that, the next school would be Necromancy. You can hardly forget the way powerful shamans are supposed to be able to curse you at the drop of a totem stick.

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Brother Ezra
Learned Scribe

USA
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Posted - 23 Feb 2004 :  05:49:21  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, so how do we get these nomadic diviner/necromancer acolytes to become imperialistic, urban demonologists of the first order in a few hundred years?

I think Bookwyrm may be on to something. Their shamans did probably dabble in some form of necromantic magic, although on a very primitive level. How far of a leap would you say it would be from necromancy to conjuration/summoning? If they can make that leap, conjurers need solitude and undisturbed locations for the more intricate summonings, particularly if a pentagram or magic circle would be needed to contain the summoned. Perhaps this may have contributed to the Nars creating permanent settlements?

"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
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The Sage
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Posted - 24 Feb 2004 :  02:57:35  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Not much of a leap, at least in terms of what one of these Shamans does with his necromantic abilities. Animating undead with negative energy is in part similar to conjuration/summoning, although there are areas where the schools differ.

There are also some necromantic spells which are almost divination by virtue of the knowledge they impart to the caster...so a jump toward necromancy is a definite possibility.

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Brother Ezra
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Posted - 06 May 2004 :  21:42:43  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After having a few months to develop my thoughts about this place, I've decided to make it the former capital of the Narfell Empire. Mintas Rhelgor was a twin city, consisting of the City of Mintas on the south shore of the Thanflow River, and the city of Rhelgor on the north. The two cities remained seperate entities until DR -902, when the first bridge spanning the river was constructed, joining the two cities into a single metropolis.

The city was originally ruled by a group of Netherese arcanists who wished to establish their own realm. The Netherese soon came under the sway of native demonological practices, and soon excelled at the art of demonic summoning. The wizards grew corrupted over years of exposure to infernal influences, and soon the wizards turned on one another, killing each other off until only one remained. The sole survivor declared himself Emperor of Narfell in DR -820, and named Mintas Rhelgor as the capital of the new Empire.

The city became the single largest center for demon worship ever witnessed on the surface of the Realms, with veneration of the demon prince Orcus being the largest cult. By -500, the followers of the goat-headed god had eliminated all other demonic cults and Mintas Rhelgor became the Unholy City of Orcus.

Among the many huge, gothic structures in the city, the Fane of Thanatos was the most imposing. The nave of the temple contained a profane relic known as the Ciborium Orcanum. This huge burnished bronze receptacle measured a full fifty feet in diameter, and was rumored to hold the blood of each sacrifice made to the demon lord. From the sacrificial blood profaned by the unholy power of the Ciborium rose undead creatures of a type no longer seen in the Realms. Other notable structures in the city included the Imperial Palace and the adjacent Tribunal, both of which were situated on the southern shore of the river, at the point where it emerges from Lake Thanmere. During particularly bloody summoning rituals, legends hold that the entire lake was transformed into blood, resulting in the lake's obscure legendary name, the Sanguine Tarn.

The city finally met its doom in DR -251, when Orcus himself freed a horde of summoned demons in retalliation for the banishment of one of his chief lieutenants. The horde decimated the city in a single night of slaughter, terror and depravity that stained the very soil with its evil. The Empire of Narfell removed its capital to a city in present-day Thesk until the destruction of Narfell and Raumathar in DR -150, the Year of Recompense.

Today, the ruins sit undisturbed. The Nar tribesman of the area shun the place sensing its evil stain. King Feldrin III of Damara sponsored an expedition led by by the Tormite paladin Vanguardier Pallando Greymantle in DR 1313, but none returned alive from that journey, and no official forays have been sent since. Whether any trace of the demon lord's influence or power remain in the ruins is pure conjecture.


"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
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George Krashos
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Posted - 07 May 2004 :  11:28:27  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Whilst I like what you've done here, it doesn't quite tally with the information on Narfell in Races of Faerun (Humans - Damaran). Perhaps you could try and weave the your two visions together ...?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Brother Ezra
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Posted - 07 May 2004 :  14:26:34  Show Profile  Visit Brother Ezra's Homepage  Send Brother Ezra a Yahoo! Message Send Brother Ezra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Whilst I like what you've done here, it doesn't quite tally with the information on Narfell in Races of Faerun (Humans - Damaran). Perhaps you could try and weave the your two visions together ...?

-- George Krashos



Thanks for the feedback George. I don't own the Races of Faerun book. In general, I've avoided 3rd edition FR products because they tend to focus too much on game mechanics and not enough on background and flavor. The last thing I need in my gaming collection is another book full of prestige classes I'll never use. Do you recommend the Races of Faerun tome? Is there enough "fluff" to justify a purchase if the buyer isn't fond of "crunch"?

Meanwhile, can you let me know what elements are in conflict with canon?

"Suffering is the touchstone of all spiritual growth."
-St. Sollars the Twice-Martyred

Edited by - Brother Ezra on 07 May 2004 21:23:51
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 07 May 2004 :  22:39:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brother Ezra

quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Whilst I like what you've done here, it doesn't quite tally with the information on Narfell in Races of Faerun (Humans - Damaran). Perhaps you could try and weave the your two visions together ...?

-- George Krashos



Thanks for the feedback George. I don't own the Races of Faerun book. In general, I've avoided 3rd edition FR products because they tend to focus too much on game mechanics and not enough on background and flavor. The last thing I need in my gaming collection is another book full of prestige classes I'll never use. Do you recommend the Races of Faerun tome? Is there enough "fluff" to justify a purchase if the buyer isn't fond of "crunch"?

Meanwhile, can you let me know what elements are in conflict with canon?



I am fond of the fluff, and I think that Races of Faerūn is a great supplement. It really fleshes out the different PC races (even humans) in a way no other product has done. I even got an idea for an NPC from a single line in the description of the water genasi!

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The Sage
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Posted - 08 May 2004 :  03:17:18  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to agree with the Hamster. Races of Faerun is an impressive supplement and a worthy addition to any FR devotee's library. There's a fair degree of fluff on the individual races, and it nicely compliments the balanced and even amount of crunch.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 29 Sep 2018 :  21:15:37  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Learned Scribe Ezra,

I've done some poking around on this matter as well, as I have seen this before, but knew nothing of Mintas Rhelgor. There still appears to be a rather significant lack of information on Narfell. Does anyone know of anything else that might have made it's way into a Polyhedron, or other source?

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Brother Ezra

I've been doing research for my Damara campaign, and noticed something unusual. In both the FR Atlas (printed version) and the FR Trailmap, there is a ruin in the middle of Narfell called Mintas Rhelgor. It is conspicuously missing from the map in FR9 The Bloodstone Lands.

I am assuming that this is a ruin of the former Narfell empire, but I was wondering if anyone has any lore about the place. Is it a city, a dungeon, a fortress, a taco stand?

Along similar lines, does anyone know what the capital of the former Narfell empire was?


Robert McDonell
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cpthero2
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Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  19:53:06  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good afternoon all,

Just bumping this to see if anyone had any definitive source on this to examine?

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1956 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  21:26:15  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On Nars and Narfell, and other than "basic" setting books? The Bloodstone Lands and Spellbound, probably.
On that neighbourhood, there was also Impiltur - The Forgotten Kingdom by George Krashos in Dragon.
FRindex catches most sources.

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cpthero2
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Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  01:20:36  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Beholder,

Wow, I had no idea about that FRIndex. Thank you much good sir!

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

On Nars and Narfell, and other than "basic" setting books? The Bloodstone Lands and Spellbound, probably.
On that neighbourhood, there was also Impiltur - The Forgotten Kingdom by George Krashos in Dragon.
FRindex catches most sources.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

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Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  11:53:28  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I put a lot of content about Narfell in Powers & Pantheons (see the Flaming Brazier) and Champions of Ruin.

FR4 - The Magister (and preceding Dragon articles) had some key Realmslore on Ndulu.

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