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 New Succubi/Incubi, neither Devils, nor Demons
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2014 :  08:25:40  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually see this happening in another 2 years.

5e is looking to be more lies and marketing spin. I'm sure Ed will do as awesome a job as is humanly possible but even if you dress up poop in all kinds of awesome, its still poop underneath (i'm talking about 5e here not Ed), and lets face it, who will pay good money for expensively dressed poop.

So they will have another go in 2-3 years time and that will also fail until finally they give us what we want - a return to 1371/2. Or they give up and let someone else have a go.

And the star wars franchise has just shown it can be done. They ignored 30 years of novels and started again from near scratch. A very brave move and one i hope is repeated in FR in some form (although only a removal of 10-15 years of novels would be necessary).

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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
243 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2014 :  11:30:27  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm curious as to why they feel the need to keep revamping these particular nastybads...

You make them demons and 4e fans will complain. Make them devils and everyone else complains. Make them fiends and everyone can interpret that as desired. I don't see any need for this to be detailed beyond "many succubi dwell in the abyss while a few serve other forces such as devils and evil gods of list."'This away an FR DM can say "succubus are demons" while another DM can say "succubus are devils" without being contradicted by adventures.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2014 :  12:03:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I'm curious as to why they feel the need to keep revamping these particular nastybads...

You make them demons and 4e fans will complain. Make them devils and everyone else complains. Make them fiends and everyone can interpret that as desired. I don't see any need for this to be detailed beyond "many succubi dwell in the abyss while a few serve other forces such as devils and evil gods of list."'This away an FR DM can say "succubus are demons" while another DM can say "succubus are devils" without being contradicted by adventures.



I don't think anyone would have complained about them not being changed at all.

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Gary Dallison
Great Reader

United Kingdom
6350 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2014 :  12:12:23  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, i certainly like them as they were.

You knew where you were with a succubus.

They were used by demons to tempt mortals into doing as the demons wished (summon more demons perhaps, commit murder and carnage on a huge scale, or maybe just pledge their soul to the demons).

Devils had other more cerebral ways of gathering souls that slowly corrupted mortals into performing ever greater evil acts for more and more power.

Now a succubus is what? Where do they come from, they had a whole origin from years of DnD past that worked seemlessly into the history of the Abyss. Now i havent a clue where they come from, will likely never be told anything satisfactory and if i followed 5e at all (which i wont) it would be just another monster i am hesitant to use because of the backlash i would suffer from the players who liked it how it was.

If you have a product like a mars bar for instance, you dont just turn it into a fruity chew bar and tell people that its not that different. People like the mars bar for a reason. Now you have no customers that used to like the mars bar and have to slowly gain new customers to at least try your fruity chew bar (which less face it isnt as good as other fruity chew bars).


Gimme back my mars bar.

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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2014 :  16:58:09  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

I sort of lose focus after 1372 DR or so ...

-- George Krashos



So do I :D

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

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dmgorgon
Acolyte

28 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2014 :  02:26:38  Show Profile Send dmgorgon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Erinyes is the Baatezu version of the Succubi.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2014 :  13:32:36  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really don't understand the opposition to this, unlike Bob retcon of Orcs and Goblins lacking free will, this change is consistant.

And read Erin Evan's books to understand what happened. I will say that Malchantet did in fact change sides to the Hells.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2014 :  13:34:47  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really don't understand the opposition to this, unlike Bob retcon of Orcs and Goblins lacking free will, this change is consistant.

And read Erin Evan's books to understand what happened. I will say that Malchantet did in fact change sides to the Hells.
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2014 :  04:27:29  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't particularly care for Bob's retcon on orcs and goblins either, but in that case an "evil" race was flushed out to the point that it made it morally ambiguous as to whether or not a party of PCs could rush into and kill a band of orcs/goblins without first divining their intentions...so I have until now stayed out of that that discussion...

In the case of the Succubus it was simply a switch in what sort of evil they are, so really a completely different "change"...so the question remains why did they need to make them Devils, especially since there already Erinyes...it is not like demons have never worked with devils, or vica versa...the problem is why was a change needed at all and why didn't they use the existing lore and simply flush it out...and if they wanted the Erinyes to function more like Succubus why not alter them and flush them out instead of changing an entire demonic race?
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1842 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2014 :  11:46:16  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
If you have a product like a mars bar for instance, you dont just turn it into a fruity chew bar and tell people that its not that different. People like the mars bar for a reason. Now you have no customers that used to like the mars bar and have to slowly gain new customers to at least try your fruity chew bar (which less face it isnt as good as other fruity chew bars).



I miss the old Mars bar myself.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2014 :  17:52:41  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Erinyes are not at all similar to succubus so there being succubus and erinyes on the same "side" makes sense.

Erinyes are vengeance spirits instead of seductive beings
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2014 :  18:06:29  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Erinyes are not at all similar to succubus so there being succubus and erinyes on the same "side" makes sense.

Erinyes are vengeance spirits instead of seductive beings. According to wikipedia they literally mean "the avengers".
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2014 :  23:16:14  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Never said they were they same or had the same role, but they have similarities and are often used as a comparison between the Infinite Abyss and the 9 Hells...but what I am asking is this:

So, does having a group of Erinyes "evolve" into a "new" race that is something akin to a Succubus makes less sense than an ENTIRE demonic race becoming devils?
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2014 :  01:57:12  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brachina were a group of Eryines that evolved into something more succubus like, abit more powerful. Brachina are called Pleasure Devils for those l
Who haven't heard of them. The big difference between Succubi and Brachina were alignment, wing type (a Brachina's wings are feathered), and power, a Brachina was more akin to a Lilitu in power level, but less animalistic. Also Brachina's had a dark angel connection, as did Eyrines in 3.x, which Succubi didn't have.

Eyrines in 3.x were already evovling into a more warrior archtype, although they didn't abbadon the seducer side and go full monsterious until 4e.

The 4e Eyrines are likely to say, but the Brachina might get merged or become a type of Succubus, I don't know.

Honestly the Brachina was my favourite seducer full blooded fiend (I liked Alu-Fiends as well).

Brachina and Eyrines were the only Devils who could have childern within thier own race, other none unique devils could only have devils with mortals.

Spoiler Alert


In one of Erin's books, some Eryrines get demoted and turned into Succubi, which means there is now in effect a connection between Eryines and Succubi, which means a connection between thier wider families as well, Brachina, Lilitu, and Incubi.

I'll be really be interested in what becomes of Succubi and thier extended family in 5e.



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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2014 :  02:52:43  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I asked Mike Mearls if Brachina and Lilitu would be Succubi, Devils, or Demons, and his reply was he wasn't sure, but he suspects that they will be on par with Archdevil and demon lords, but not tied to either hierarchy. This was on twitter.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2014 :  04:43:15  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

I asked Mike Mearls if Brachina and Lilitu would be Succubi, Devils, or Demons, and his reply was he wasn't sure, but he suspects that they will be on par with Archdevil and demon lords, but not tied to either hierarchy. This was on twitter.



If that's the case, it doesn't appear that they'll actually be going back to the Great Wheel, because that doesn't make any sense within that cosmology.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2014 :  04:50:37  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor
In one of Erin's books, some Eryrines get demoted and turned into Succubi, which means there is now in effect a connection between Eryines and Succubi, which means a connection between thier wider families as well, Brachina, Lilitu, and Incubi.



That only makes any sense however within the conceits of the 4e core cosmology definitions of those races, which are both a radical break from the background and lore of those races within the Great Wheel and within FR lore for 1e/2e/3e. The 4e novels had to use those 4e definitions, which makes for a difficult position moving forward.

Do you keep the 4e novel lore that badly conflicts with prior 1e/2e/3e canon? Or do you preserve continuity by retconning it (the 4e stuff)? Or do you move forward by going back to only talking about pre-4e names and concepts and while not openly retconning the 4e material that causes issues, just politely never mention it again? It's a difficult position to be certain.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2014 :  23:28:51  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And for those who were wondering about why were debating the changes to the Succubus...Shemmy sums it up rather nicely...while yes the Succubus is a minor race in the grand scheme of the Realms, it is a small peak at the design approach that WotC has used moving into 5e...
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2014 :  00:41:17  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its been explained how Succubi became devils, there is no need to retcon anything.
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe

Malaysia
552 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2014 :  04:22:01  Show Profile Send Xar Zarath a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I much preferred the succubus as she was, a demon. With a backstory that wove in Malcanthet, Xinivrae and Shami-Amourae, it made them as they were, petty, spiteful demon queens who wanted a piece of the Abyssal pie. And they could have kept all that, as demons in the Abyss with all the time in the planes to do what they want, with some off hand line saying that some of them are whispered to work for even darker masters, who would be destroyed if they were found out, they were already spies.WOTC could have said they were spies for some devils, liaisons for yugoloths and other more fearsome fiends, concubines and paramours of dangerous archfiends all across the Lower Planes, but no matter where they went, they were born of the Abyss.

Everything ends where it begins. Period.



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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2014 :  06:45:09  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
ksu_bond: I was only referring to the real world mythology, not how they evolved in D&D.
Neither has to necessarily be chaotic/lawful. That was the point I was trying to make. Tanar'ri/Baatezu were created by TSR and "succubus" and "erinyes" were applied to some creatures. These portrayals of these beings are not gospel truths and I don't see why they can't be changed.

It seems strange to be dogmatic and rigid about these labels


(I thought about this when I read one of Salvatore's novels I was given where a succubus was "orderly". I had not read 4e source books so I assumed they made it so they could be of any alignment...)
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2014 :  23:05:46  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its complicated. Succubi became devils, but the demonicon had incubus as demons, basically more predatory succubi who could turn into animals as well in 4e. So in that sense they were still both. I don't know if the Demonicon counts for the realms.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2014 :  00:26:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When you're hilt deep inside of one, and it only then reveals its true identity, do you really care if its a demon or a devil? Aren't you more worried about what kind of magic-resistant STD you just got from them?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Jergals Spare Scythe
Acolyte

USA
23 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2014 :  10:37:54  Show Profile Send Jergals Spare Scythe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

When you're hilt deep inside of one, and it only then reveals its true identity, do you really care if its a demon or a devil? Aren't you more worried about what kind of magic-resistant STD you just got from them?



Heh heh, maybe that's why Bigby devoted so much time to hand-themed spells. Manual-assistance spells aside, I think the difference between devil and demon is irrelevant to most people on Faerun, especially paladins.

That being said, Succubi are subtle demons, I can see them having side deals and unauthorized playgrounds.

"Seek to bring order to the chaos of life, for in death there is finality and a fixedness of state. Be ready for death for it is at hand and uncompromising."

Excerpt from Jergal's Dogma, Faiths and Pantheons, page 99
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2014 :  18:32:47  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It seems to me that devils gain power by promoting corruption of mortal souls - erinyes exploit certain weaknesses of the flesh, offering their comely temptations to satiate urgent lusts, requesting only "symbolic" surrender of their victim's soul (which will soon enough be ripped away from the victim's screaming flesh and taken to the Nine Hells). No doubt these sadistic creatures first revel in dominating and manipulating their willingly enslaved victims towards other worldly ends, for a time, before tiring of their weakly submissive trophies and seeking new souls to seduce towards the burning Hells.

While demonic succubi seem more driven by power (as measured in souls) as a means unto itself. They seek to gain more power and rise among their kind, or must tithe towards more powerful demons to whom they are themselves subjugated. Their drives are probably more opportunistic, impulsive, and spontaneous - as cruel, domineering, and sadistic as erinyes yet far less calculating and far more bestial. True, they are considerably more intelligent than most of the humans they generally prey upon, and they can likely draw from centuries of practical experience - but to them subtlety is a learned survival skill, seen as useful at times yet inferior to uncontestable application of force.

Both of these fiendish types represent dark aspects inherent to human nature.

Curiously, succubi can spawn female alu-fiends, half-human and half-demon, and - while typically as Chaotic Evil as their mothers - in extraordinarily rare circumstances (such as when sired and raised by an "uncorruptably" Lawful Good paladin), they might sometimes become merely Neutral in regards to alignment. Erinyes apparently do not produce any half-human half-fiend offspring, aside perhaps from random (and usually obvious) lesser cambions.

[/Ayrik]
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2014 :  23:30:35  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly I always felt that there should have been a celestial verison of the succubus, like an Apsara or Houri.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist

USA
11686 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2014 :  00:28:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Honestly I always felt that there should have been a celestial verison of the succubus, like an Apsara or Houri.



to what end? Get all the 16 year old horny boys to do good acts? Um, that's still being a whore for the wrong reasons..... i.e. they're not doing good things to be a good person... they're doing good things to receive sexual favors.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2014 :  03:48:16  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some deities are pragmatic.

And If one follows the Mythology of Apsara's and Houri (the first is Hindu, fhe Second Muslim), the Apsara seduces threats to the Gods, she acts a distraction, amoung other uses, and the Houri are the reward in the Muslim Heaven for those to fight the spiritual enemies of Allah (in some not all Muslim Traditions).

So in the FR the Apsara would not just seduce 16 year old boys, unless that served a greater purpose, she's seduce a Priest of Set or Shar and foul up thier evil plot.
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
7966 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2014 :  20:42:15  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It makes me wonder if deities like Sune and Sharess employ such agents to increase their (or their allys) divine stature over competing deities within the Faerunian pantheon?

Imagine a mighty battlepriest who fanatically serves Tempus, having his passions divinely redirected towards romantic feelings for an enemys daughter? Or a judge-priest of Tyr having his normal clarity of impartial justice clouded by lustful fixations upon a pretty accuser? Or a tyrannical Banelord softening his iron grip to win the affections of a lowly peasant girl?

I suppose such interference with the Faithful of other deities might escalate into a full-scale divine cold war, the sort of clandestine abuses of divinity normally attributed to scum like Shar and Cyric. Still ... Faerunian deities have been known to overstep their bounds before, and they manipulate the lives of their own Faithful with impunity, and they seem to be poorly policed (by Ao or by each other) ... I wouldnt be surprised to read FR stories involving planar (celestial or fiendish) agencies being deployed in all sorts of divine espionage, sabotage, assassination, terrorism, and destabilization. Let semi-mortal scapegoats do their dirty work in the enemy camp - succubi would fit in quite admirably.

[/Ayrik]
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1621 Posts

Posted - 02 Jun 2014 :  00:08:45  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In Sharess' case she could simply use the Minion of Sharess spell on her Alu-Fiends and Tieflings servants to turn them into fiendish looking Celestials seducers.

Actually casting it on her Doppelganger servants as well would work as well.
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