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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  03:07:31  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
From how Mike Mearls describes Succubi/Incubi on his twitter account today, it makes Succubi/Incubi sound like very interesting fiendish mercanaries/prostitutes.

So you could find them in service to devils, ala 4e, you can find them in service to demon lords ala previous editions, you can find them in service to Dark Gods, which is awesome because unlike Good Gods which have Celestials of various races in there service, this gives Dark Gods a servant race to use when in need of Planar service.

Hypotethetically you could even have Succubi in service to powerful mortals, or even working for stranger masters, like Elementals, Rogue Good Deities like Sharess (Sharess already has Alu-Fiends so why not), Lovecraftian Elder Gods, Evil Primordial Spirits, ArchSuccubi/Incubi.

This gives Succubi/Incubi uses beyond simply seducers, they can be Heralds of a God, they can be spy masters and double agents in Planar Politics, high ranking members of secret societies, and so much more. And yes seducers.

I for one like the change and it fits the current lore, especially as envisioned by Erin M Evans. Too crafty and manipulative for the Abyss, too emotional and passionate for Hell's discipline.

Shemmy
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USA
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Posted - 21 May 2014 :  04:29:44  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage  Send Shemmy an AOL message  Send Shemmy an ICQ Message Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

From how Mike Mearls describes Succubi/Incubi on his twitter account today, it makes Succubi/Incubi sound like very interesting fiendish mercanaries/prostitutes.



Succubi/Incubi are demons.

If they aren't in 5e, it's an unfortunately poor move. They have an opportunity to fix lore that went off the rails in the past few years, but they also risk compounding the issue.

We'll see how it looks in print.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  05:18:39  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shemammy - Why do they have to be demons rather than devils? (or their own type of "fiend")
Devas can be lawful, chaotic, or neutral good - why not certain kinds of fiends? For example having their alignment be "any evil" (if 5th edition has alignments) It makes more sense to me to have chaotic and lawful succubi than have "Erinyes" be seductive (which does not fit their real world mythology)

However, this changes in particular sound like they dramtically change the nature of succubi to the point where they should just invent a new being. My preference is for mythological beings to stay true to the myth they are taken from (succubi being seducers...)

I don't know how to use twitter. Could you post the original text? Is this the original text?

Someone asked: Succubi - baatezu or tanar'ri?

"Neither! Free agents of fiends. They'll work for anyone, or you'll work for them."
"Can be totally free agents. Powerful succubi and inccubi are important, but shadowy players in planar politics"
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1614 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  07:18:38  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No I agree with Shemmy. They keep trying to reinvent the wheel and it keeps coming out a square. They could have just created a new fiendish race of mercenaries. Oh wait...they already did that...in the form of daemons (who were secretly pulling the strings). So, a new type of daemon to fill this role would have been just fine. Call them widgets and widgettes and play on...but no, we got a triangular wheel instead.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4116 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  08:39:24  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

WoTC shamed us all with 4e. Now that they are doing the exact same thing again we only have ourselves to blame if we fall for it.

I'm not falling for it and im steering well clear until i get my reset to 1371.

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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe

USA
422 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  16:08:01  Show Profile Send Kris the Grey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Succubi are demons because the represent the rawest form of one of the seven deadly sins - lust. They are tempters, and while this could make them devils, devils represent a very structured sort of evil. The lust expressed by Succubi is primitive, raw, and unbridled. Hence - demons. Let's do us all a favor and keep it that way!

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Mirtek
Senior Scribe

532 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  19:23:51  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

you can find them in service to Dark Gods, which is awesome because unlike Good Gods which have Celestials of various races in there service, this gives Dark Gods a servant race to use when in need of Planar service.
It doesn't give them a servant race anymore than them just hiring some demons or devils or 'loths
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Hypotethetically you could even have Succubi in service to powerful mortals, or even working for stranger masters, like Elementals, Rogue Good Deities like Sharess (Sharess already has Alu-Fiends so why not), Lovecraftian Elder Gods, Evil Primordial Spirits, ArchSuccubi/Incubi.
You mean exactly like you could when they were demons? And when they were devils? Wow!
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

This gives Succubi/Incubi uses beyond simply seducers, they can be Heralds of a God, they can be spy masters and double agents in Planar Politics, high ranking members of secret societies, and so much more.
Again, exactly like they could while being demons/devils.

Really, the only ones not hiring them while they were demons/devils were the respective opposite.

An evil deity, Elementals, Lovecraftian Elder Gods, Evil Primordial Spirits, etc. could hire a demon/devil succubi just as like as hiring a Glabrezu or a Cornugon or an Arcanaloth.

Edited by - Mirtek on 21 May 2014 20:40:30
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31515 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  21:12:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm curious as to why they feel the need to keep revamping these particular nastybads...

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  22:11:12  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some people, mostly fans of 4e, but not exclusively feel that Succubi as tempters make more sense as devils. Others feel that Succubi are about raw passion and animalistic lust and thierfor make more sense as demons.

They don't make sense as Yugoloths either, as I understand Yugoloths culture is puritanical, sex is frowned on,perhaps because sex is associated with the act of creation of new life, and is taboo in Yugoloth society.

So I agree with Mike, this is a fair compromise that allows Succubi to act as demons, devils, fallen angels, evil planar mercs, fiendish prostitutes and so on. I don't mean to suggest that seducer is the heart of the succubi, just that she can fill a more flexible role.

For an idea of how this will work, a good place to start is the succubus in Erin M Evans novels.

Spoiler alert.


She was once a demon, switch sides and became a devil, but could not completely repress the passions of demonhood, and finally decided to say bite me to hell, and ended up in the service of the Aboleths. She is the template that I think of when I picture the 5e succubus. Honestly my favourite full succubus in the realms.
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  22:35:42  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So demons can't be tempters? That's a new one...Succubi are demons...they are tempters and they do enjoy raw passion and animalistic lust. Simply put, they are manipulative creatures that use temptation, lust, passion, sexuality, etc. to get what they want. While I do like that they are expanding their roles within the greater multi-verse, it's nothing new...I've had Succubi heralds, spies, and information/secrets mongers for years...in particular is a "coven" of succubi who are in the service of Shar...
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2014 :  23:22:58  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage  Send Shemmy an AOL message  Send Shemmy an ICQ Message Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor


For an idea of how this will work, a good place to start is the succubus in Erin M Evans novels.

Spoiler alert.


She was once a demon, switch sides and became a devil, but could not completely repress the passions of demonhood, and finally decided to say bite me to hell, and ended up in the service of the Aboleths. She is the template that I think of when I picture the 5e succubus. Honestly my favourite full succubus in the realms.



You shouldn't use unique, corner cases as racial archetypes however. Doubly so when you have succubi as one of the classic, D&D demons with only a very short lived 4e tenure as anything different.

That particular succubus also isn't really a succubus anymore though. The process of shifting alignments like that -for beings that are the physical manifestations of an alignment- is a transfigurative event. A fallen celestial like Baalzebul or Zalatian XXIII is no longer a celestial, just as the rare risen fiend like Felthis ap Jerran is no longer a true fiend. Likewise a singular succubus that becomes a devil is no longer a demon, but a unique creature in her own right.

It'll be a shame if they don't go with the classic succubus/incubus in 5e.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  00:40:32  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a solution, add the demon keyword to succubi if you prefer them as demons, its not like they will be so different in abilities that you can make that minor shift.

And the succubus in question isn't a corner case, most Succubi switched over to the hells, although perhaps not all. So there is no reason to believe that her experience is unusual, except for the Aboleth thing.

I know it violates tradition, but it fits the current realms. It does present intrigue plot possiblities.

I know that some of you are disappointed, but I doubt they will change it at this time.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe

USA
492 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  00:54:05  Show Profile  Visit Shemmy's Homepage  Send Shemmy an AOL message  Send Shemmy an ICQ Message Send Shemmy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gyor

Here is a solution, add the demon keyword to succubi if you prefer them as demons, its not like they will be so different in abilities that you can make that minor shift.

And the succubus in question isn't a corner case, most Succubi switched over to the hells, although perhaps not all. So there is no reason to believe that her experience is unusual, except for the Aboleth thing.

I know it violates tradition, but it fits the current realms. It does present intrigue plot possiblities.

I know that some of you are disappointed, but I doubt they will change it at this time.



It's one of the reasons why -with slender exception- I've drifted away from the Realms to other settings: because of the planar lore from the 4e core setting -which was radically different from that of 1e/2e/3e D&D- being summarily forced onto FR without any apparent regard to prior continuity.

Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.

Edited by - Shemmy on 22 May 2014 00:57:24
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  01:11:29  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to agree with Shemmy, while I'll admit I didn't initially like many of the 4e changes to the Realms, many of them I've figured out how to incorporate them and smoothe out some of the rough edges so that they fit in with my idea of the Realms...essentially the biggest problems with the 4e Realms that I still have are the time jump and the complete disregard for previous FR lore by forcing the Realms to take on the "new" generic lore for the setting, such as the Succubus. Ironically, I've been able to come to appreciate those changes to the Realms that were made with little to no explanation, whereas the changes that were more flushed out I still find incongruent and less will to accept...
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  02:00:45  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Devil, demons and Daemons being separate kinds of beings is an invention of Dungeons and Dragons not an absolute truth that must be abided by. I am not aware of "Devil" meaning anything other than the nemesis of God in Judeo-Christian myth. "Succubus" is a real world myth and I don't see why there would be any absolute truths applied to them aside from the original folklore as source material. I've thought of these words as being mortal words for beings they do not understand (as opposed to tanar'ri, baatezu and yugoloth) I realize this name change was done for political reasons when there was opposition to fantasy games, but still.

If they do not change things or try to do something new then why would they release new products? We've already seen succubus as demons/tanar'ri. (I am not very familiar with 4e so I can't comment on that) They need new lore and new worlds in order to sell a new product. If they do not do something different there is no point in them releasing new products. We can all just use Planescape over and over...

5e D&D should be new not rehashing what has already existed prior to it. If they stuck to old mythos there would be no point in them creating a new edition of the game. If they just are released products that said the same things I have already seen, why would I buy it?
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ksu_bond
Learned Scribe

New Zealand
214 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  03:45:27  Show Profile Send ksu_bond a Private Message  Reply with Quote
New is fine...but in the case of the Succubus...so the "new" Succubus in 4e was the same old demon/tanar'ri but were changed to a baatezu/devil...new yes, but at the same time it was "new" for the sack of being "new...so now it appears that 5e's Succubus will be something that's not necessarily a demon/tanar'ri or a devil/baatezu so that it can become a mercenary of the planes, acting as a spy, sudductress, assassin, herald, etc. ... so while this is all new, why couldn't the original Succubus that has been around for years as a demon/tanar'ri had their story flushed out so that they are a mercenary of the planes, acting as a spy, sudductress, assassin, herald, etc? It's not like a chaotic being from the Abyss will really have any long lasting loyalties, so in 4e when they became "devils" why couldn't they have simply been "demons" whose loyalty had been bought...then in 5e after working for the "devils" they have had difficulty finding work with their fellow "demons" and are now acting as soldier's of fortune...with some serving the the Dark Powers of the Far Realms, others becoming the heralds and agents of Dark Gods...thus keeping the decades worth of lore intact, but adding further depth to a monstrous race and the opportunity to create new adventures/plot hooks/etc. from the political intrigues that would have been created by their shift in alliance during the 4e period...
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1614 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  06:36:10  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There is/was no need to 'change' things...especially when so much of it was arbitrary and incongruent with established lore. Note that introducing something new does not have to mean changing something well established for over 30 years. In this case, the fact that succubi were demons.

They can release new products by continuing to build upon existing lore. We know for a fact that Ed still has many 'secrets' in the Realms that were never revealed to us. Revealing such a secret here and there would constitute something 'new' (to us) and BUILD UPON existing lore rather than DESTROYING it.

The Realms was just fine the way it was in the 1e/2e/3e iterations of the game...and still would have been (in 4e) had they NOT CHANGED things so dramatically. Had they elected to ADD to the body of lore they wouldn't have lost so many customers.

And if they do it again with 5e then they can look forward to losing more. Having said all of that I think the 5e Realms will be fairly decent (though I still withhold judgment until its release).

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  08:21:14  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is this topic about the Forgotten Realms setting itself or changing one of the creatures in it? Succubus becoming something new is not related to the Forgotten Realms setting. I meant 5e rules and materials in general, not dramatically changing the Forgotten Realms setting.... you realize that Dungeons and Dragons exists outside of this setting, right?

Edited by - MrHedgehog on 22 May 2014 08:26:53
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

1310 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  13:01:05  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I somehow doubt that the Forgotten Realms will fall if Succubi aren't demons.

I am curious as to what happens to Lilitu and Brachina, which are basically more advanced verisons of Succubi now, the former demon, and the later devil abit previously connected to another race of sexy devils.

As for demons that sold thier service to hell, that's exactly what they did.

This idea of Succubi reminds me of what Pathfinder did with Kytons, which I love. Basically they combined the basic traditional Kyton, removed the devil part, added a mix of Cenobites from Hellraiser, the creepy self surgeon from the hell boy movie, a connection to the shadow plane, and then added diverisity to the race.

What you end up with is the coolest race of fiends in Pathfinder.

I hope they do something as cool with succubi, but still consistant with previous lore.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1614 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  13:09:08  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course I'm aware that DnD exists outside of this setting. Are you aware that this setting is now the flagship of DnD? Ergo, changing something in DnD now directly impacts the setting. The two are now one and the same.

Yes the topic is about the changing of the race. That doesn't mean the effect it has on the Realms is 'out of bounds' even if it weren't the flagship setting.

No the Realms won't fall because of a change to succubi...what I was trying to convey is that too many radical changes would cause it to falter...again. I'm pretty sure my last post was clear on that even if I didn't spell it out.

Cheers.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  13:19:35  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it a bit hyperbolic to get rage over the Succubus status. I hate what they did to the cosmology with 4e. I really hope they even get rid of the Forgotten Realms TREE cosmology and go back to the great wheel.

Succubus is an extraordinarily minor part of that. If they fix the cosmology I will take a Lawful Succubus every now and then.


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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4116 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  13:23:03  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah but it starts with turning an elf into an eladrin. No one seems to mind that idea too much and then bam, Anauroch grows plants, a hole opens in the Great Rift, the Sea of Fallen Stars dries up, Mystra dies (again), magic goes nuts, people get marked with blue stuff, Halruaa explodes, Waterdeep doesnt, Aboleth appear all over the place, Shades conquer Sembia, the Zhentarim all die, half the gods turn into fey or each other or both.

And it all started with the idea of turning an elf into an eladrin that no one minded too much about and could probably live with the change if they had to.

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Gyor
Master of Realmslore

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Posted - 22 May 2014 :  15:05:28  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm pretty sure all that started with Mystria's death, not the change to elves.
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
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Posted - 22 May 2014 :  15:05:57  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Ah but it starts with turning an elf into an eladrin. No one seems to mind that idea too much and then bam, Anauroch grows plants, a hole opens in the Great Rift, the Sea of Fallen Stars dries up, Mystra dies (again), magic goes nuts, people get marked with blue stuff, Halruaa explodes, Waterdeep doesnt, Aboleth appear all over the place, Shades conquer Sembia, the Zhentarim all die, half the gods turn into fey or each other or both.

And it all started with the idea of turning an elf into an eladrin that no one minded too much about and could probably live with the change if they had to.



Arguably changing elf to eladrin was a much bigger change. It like most changes for 4e was nonsensical.

The succubus be a well rounded fiend is not nearly a magnitude of change as elf to eladrin.

4e realms added nothing good to the realms, so I am hoping to see it all become a footnote. 4e Realms literally was 'change it for the sake of change' not for a good reason. I just don't think the succubus change is that big of a deal, and I do see a logical reason for it.

I cannot find a logical reason for the 4e realms changes or the cosmology changes.


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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1614 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  21:38:31  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll diddo what dazzler said. It all starts with one 'great' idea and then spirals from there. I see it happening again in about 10 years.

Anyway, Mournblade you're right that it is a minor change (and quite minor compared to changing a PC race into eladrin). My issue is that it flies in the face of decades, I mean DECADES sir, of established lore. I prefer changes to be organic...this doesn't seem organic to me. If they had a story where their mistress (Malcinthet?) was 'muscled out' of the Abyss somehow and millions of succubi went with her and 'changed' their MO (method of operations) then it would make more sense. They could even backtrack it a bit and say it happened a long time ago and the info is just being revealed to those 'in the know' (i.e. DMs, sages, and [now] player characters).

It's all about how they present it. As it seems to be presented now it looks like a 'hey we have this kewl idea and don't worry about the semantics fellow purchasers of our wares...'

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 22 May 2014 :  22:52:21  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I prefer the great wheel cosmology. The new cosmology seems poorly thought out or a massive simplification to appeal to a dumbed down audience. But I played the P lanescape computer game when I was in grade 7. I do not think it is too hard to understand. I am open to change if it is good.

I agree that I love Katrina in path finder. Also Rakshasa and aura. I found them fascinating. Hopefully wotc does something as interesting with succubi/Incubi, too. Maybe also erinyes (I hope they are kept as vengeful beings instead of lawful seduces which had nothing to do with the mythological source material) humanoid fiends (succubi, erinyes, corrupted devils, etc.) Being "any evil" fiends is an idea I like and would push for if I were designing it. (Hint to any game designers browsing thia forum....)

The arcanamoth I am sorry for the rude tone of my last post. I do not know why I was being so abrasive
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