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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 11:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
If deities are allowed to drop over for a friendly chat, then this opens up a can of worms that cannot be closed. We end up in a situation where we ultimately ended up in the canon Realms, with deities killing each other, with mortals killing deities, and a whole lot of other shenanigans--not to mention all of the other problems. For example, let's say something bad is happening to Mystra's faithful and to the deity similar to what was happening with Lathander and his followers with the Risen Sun Heresy. We know Mystra has manifested in the flesh many times in the Realms, why would she not show up and say, 'Hey guys, that heresy is a bunch of bunk. Just ignore that. I don't have anything to do with it.' To avoid that situation you are left with a pretty weak solution, which is just to exclaim, 'The gods work in mysterious ways!' That really is not a satisfactory solution to the problem, and a deity being silent in such an instance would only lend support to the heresy.
In the end, is it really any different if someone falls asleep in a moonlit grove and has a dream vision of dancing with Eilistraee in the grove, or a group of her followers see moonlit shadows dancing alongside them in the figure of a large Drow woman--instead of Eilistraee appearing in the flesh to do the same thing? In the end, Eilistraee makes her presence known. The difference is that you cannot question the dream or the manifestation. If Eilistraee is standing right there before you, the temptation to ask her questions and for direct guidance is exceedingly high to the point of overwhelming.
I get your point, and I agree with that. I only prefer the deities to have a prominent human side, because what makes them interesting is not that they're random entities who give out spells to those with faith, but their history, personality, and bond with their followers, which are all tied to the concepts they--as divine beings--embody, but not entirely determined by those. In the Realms, even in the lore and sourcebooks (not just in novels) even going back to the 2e deities books, there are deities who are said to directly show up in certain situations, in a way or the other. The drow deities, especially mother and both children, tend to be closer to their followers, for example (and that makes sense, given their history and goals), so this is not something introduced by WotC.
Your model works, and while I do enjoy that some deities directly join their followers at times, I'd be fine with it too. However, many of the same problems remain, as they're just shifted. For example, regarding heresies, we know that deities have specific divine servants who can hardly be mistaken. So why not send them, multiple of them, to tell all their followers that X heresy is just nonsense?
quote:
None of the flavor gets lost, but the degree of separation protects the setting from exactly what ended up taking place. It's the middle road--the balance between the two extremes--that keeps the flavor intact without the inevitable consequences of having deities duking it out or becoming central characters in stories. Deities in the Realms should be viewed more like a spice--they are important for flavor but are awful when they become the primary ingredient.
Honestly, if WotC want an event to happen in the setting, or want to directly use deities (becaue it is "cool" or w/e), they'll have it regardless, as we've been shown multiple times by their ignoring or warping previous lore. In-world protection doesn't really work when they can just pretend that it doesn't exist. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jul 2017 11:42:07 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 11:29:37
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ive been saying it for a long time that deities should not be directly contactable.
Its written into the rules that even looking at an avatar is enough to send people mad, burn their eyes out their sockets, or disintegrate them utterly.
Meeting a god in person should kill the person and everyone genetically related to him. Directly contacting a god (via magic or telephone) would be like trying to speak to a multipartite being who occuoies 20 different places at once and has two hundred methods of communication (none of which you speak and all of which cause your head to explode). If you could get past that you still have to contend with the god focusing on about 50 different tasks at once so you would never get an answer that made any sense.
For all those reasons the gods should seek to distance themselves from their worshippers if only to protect them. The avatars are the ultimate vessel a mortal would meet and that is only on request in the direst of need and its not the true god, just a low powered automaton.
In Planescape lore, avatars don't kill people just with their presence. The more powerful gods can do that, if confronted directly, but their avatars are indeed their ways to interact with the physical world. Besides, it would make little sense for avatars of deities of goodness, love, life, etc... to kill or harm people with their own presence. It would also just be unfitting.
quote:
At least thats how i do it. And yes mystra has manifested multiple times but i have a theory that mystra the goddess and mystra the weave are different parts of the same being so elminster met mystra the weave also known as myrjala darkeyes who was a real human being that holds part of the weave (like the nether scrolls). She inspired the worship of mystra and is part of the goddess now but must also remain a physical being or else the weave goes nuts. Everytime myrjalas physical being is destroyed it reforms (like the nether scrolls) which is why mystra keeps coming back when she dies (although distant gods make that thankfully less likely).
What about other gods directly appearing (Mystra is not the only one)? |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 03 Jul 2017 11:42:16 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 17:39:57
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I agree with others about the balance, though striking a balance can be difficult (and there are different ideas of what that balance is). Deities have been in the Realms since the beginning. The first Realms novel, the Moonshae trilogy, involved deities (I realize FR is first and foremost a game setting, but the novel line has been around a long time, until recently). I think deities can become characters without them being main characters (like in Evermeet. Use the prologue).
If the deities become too distant, they might as well not be there, and that would ruin the Realms, for me, since it has been said time and again the deities are deeply involved with their followers, whether directly or indirectly. Removing them (or making them so distant they might as well be removed) would be as bad as using them as the ultimate plot device, like ToT. I'm fine with them communicating via dreams or manifestations. Keep the mystery, but with enough clarity that their followers know that, hey, our god is trying to tell us something, but it's up to us to figure out what that something is. I like the gods have personalities and goals. They can be "human" without "being human".
My biggest beef with 4e was the killing of so many of the deities (or the seeming killing). The time jump bothered me too, of course, but I was really upset about the deities. I'm glad they've returned, even if I'm not happy with the explanation (or lack thereof). |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 18:03:13
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I think it all depends on your own, personal feelings on the subject. I don't think ANY of the shark-jumping moments with the deities in any of the FR stories - be it novel or sourcbook - strays too far from how Ed pictured things.
And its probably one of the few things I would disagree with him on.
He has likened his setting to how things work in The Chronicles of Amber - those 'immortals' were very powerful, and had abilities normal humans didn't, but at the end of the day, those 'gods' (note the small letter 'g') were just like 'Supers' in comics. Superman is STIll 'a man', even if he is a crazy-powerful alien. In FR, any time I've seen stuff Ed wrote concerning 'the Gods', he wrote them as being very fallible, with all the quirks and other personality traits mortals have... just like how the gods are in Greek mythology, or Norse.
WE - most of us here - are looking at 'The Gods' through the filter of our own, modern perceptions, when that is WRONG. I for one should know this, because I made an extensive study of Greek (and other) mythology in my younger days, and even took several college courses pertaining to the subject (and even got to correct a professor once.. and he had to admit his error the next time I had that class... once he checked his sources). Ancient people DID look at their gods like super-powerful people, not as some unknowable, all-powerful 'force'. And even though I DO know this, and don't feel the portrayal of FR's gods fall outside of what Ed imagined (although, even he admitted the ToT was 'a bit much'), I still don't like it. I am a product of this world, and my own bigotry (preconceived notions) is coming into play. To me, personally it just feels wrong to be able to walk up to a god and interact with them.
On the upside, we don't have to adhere to 'canon' in or games - our gods can be any way we want them.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Jul 2017 18:04:27 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 18:17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think it all depends on your own, personal feelings on the subject. I don't think ANY of the shark-jumping moments with the deities in any of the FR stories - be it novel or sourcbook - strays too far from how Ed pictured things.
And its probably one of the few things I would disagree with him on.
He has likened his setting to how things work in The Chronicles of Amber - those 'immortals' were very powerful, and had abilities normal humans didn't, but at the end of the day, those 'gods' (note the small letter 'g') were just like 'Supers' in comics. Superman is STIll 'a man', even if he is a crazy-powerful alien. In FR, any time I've seen stuff Ed wrote concerning 'the Gods', he wrote them as being very fallible, with all the quirks and other personality traits mortals have... just like how the gods are in Greek mythology, or Norse.
WE - most of us here - are looking at 'The Gods' through the filter of our own, modern perceptions, when that is WRONG. I for one should know this, because I made an extensive study of Greek (and other) mythology in my younger days, and even took several college courses pertaining to the subject (and even got to correct a professor once.. and he had to admit his error the next time I had that class... once he checked his sources). Ancient people DID look at their gods like super-powerful people, not as some unknowable, all-powerful 'force'. And even though I DO know this, and don't feel the portrayal of FR's gods fall outside of what Ed imagined (although, even he admitted the ToT was 'a bit much'), I still don't like it. I am a product of this world, and my own bigotry (preconceived notions) is coming into play. To me, personally it just feels wrong to be able to walk up to a god and interact with them.
As a fan of world mythology, this is one of the reasons I like the gods in the Realms, and why they add flavor. Much like Greek and Norse myth (really most world mythology. Heck, even in the Bible, God interacted directly with mortals. He may not have appeared to them, but he spoke to them all the time), the FR gods are very much a part of the setting and the life of mortals, be in through direct or indirect action. And, like the Greek gods, they have personalities and desires (this is one of the reasons I like the idea of them being individual entities).
I don't think every major FR storyline needs to involve the gods to the point they *become* the storyline, but they are very much a present force in the Realms, whether they interact with their followers directly (appearing "in the flesh") or indirectly (dreams/visions, etc).
Even the Greek gods were mysterious to mortals, no matter how often they appeared. They weren't infallible, but they were still gods. I think the gods can be involved while still maintaining a sense of mystery. Portrayal plays a big role in that. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 20:15:58
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Yet even in Ed's realms, the gods were a part of the setting. They acted more indirectly, but they were still active. I remember watching an interview with him (I think it was at the beginning of 5e). Say Chauntea sends a signal to her followers in the form of a rose or some such. From a gaming standpoint, the players then have to figure out what it is Chauntea wants them to do. That doesn't mean however that the rose isn't from Chauntea, it just means she is communicating with her followers via more indirect means, rather than appearing "in the felsh".
You can still have fun and mystery with the gods in the setting. They don't have to be removed and distant for there to be intrigue. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 21:08:06
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That rose is exactly how I would keep godly interaction.
I wouldn't be surprised if none of his players knew the rose was from Chauntea, Ed probably never told them, instead he left it deliberately unknown (usually smiling).
The viewers can interpret it how they will and more importantly they can assume who sent it, but they can never know and therein lies the intrigue and the possibilities.
Was it a normal rose, was it a pixie or sprite playing a trick, was it a nearby mage, was it an evil god trying to waylay them, was it a god they favour trying to show his favour in return.
Those that are good at reading signs and discerning their meaning and origin become powerful members of the priesthood (or regarded as lunatics by those in charge who are not so favoured). The deific interventions are mysterious, often missed or misconstrued natural phenomena (like Troy with the birdsign interpreted as a god's favour).
No gods turn up and say "I want this to happen, do it immediately",
"oh and by the way all these people are heretics and secretly serve another god". Where's the fun in that.
Rather Lathander may manifest a rose in his largest temple and then make it wither and die to show that something bad is about to happen (infiltrators of Shar in the temple or a disease spreading in the countryside or demons or any other evils). Now the priests go mental and recall all their wandering priests to hold a great conclave and divine the meaning. The Sharrans call it a false omen from an evil god, designed to mislead us from the true path (while they infiltrate further and corrupt more novices). THe moderates advocate waiting to divine the truth. THe radicals call for a purge of evil and hire adventurers and organise paladin orders to raid pirate holds and orc dens etc.
Now we have adventure and possibilities and the unknown and multiple intrigues all from the appearance of a withering rose. THe alternative is much less interesting unless it appears in a novel with laser beams and super flying god legions battling each other in the skies of Faerun to save it from a planet eating god or some other nonsensical endpoint.
And there is a good justification as to why gods do not act directly. Any action a god takes will immediately be blocked by whoever opposes him (evil or not there is always someone who takes offence at any action). The god with the greater power wins and does what he wants but then the loser calls in his boss and so only he can act. This cycle continues adnauseum until all the gods end up in a massive battle royale, all because Lathander wanted to say hi to his favourite priest Jim.
So in order to prevent total destruction of all creation, none are allowed to act directly (and also because they are so powerful that seeing a god burns out your eyes, hearing him explodes your brain, and communicating with him makes you mad unless you are a super being yourself). |
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 03 Jul 2017 21:12:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 21:51:01
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And by the same token, some powerful mage could have made the rose(s) appear as well, or even a different god (although thats risky), just to subvert a deity's followers into doing something (or not doing something).
And this works, because for whatever reason, 'the gods' don't seem to really keep track of this type of stuff, or even care much (mostly). I suppose its supposed to come down to 'Faith', which is a very hard thing to roleplay (PC or NPC). A High Priest of temple should be able to see the rose and know instantly if its a 'true sign', or someone else mucking-about. Thats the only reasoning I can see as to why the gods even allow that sort of stuff to happen (gods, fiends, and even mortals, pretending to be a god, or impersonating one) - its a test, of sorts. If you are fooled by it, you weren't really 'worthy' to begin with.
Maybe |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 21:56:19
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Trying to interpret is part of the fun, yes, especially in game. I'll have to see if I can find that interview. I think it was a GenCon panel. It might take some time to find it. Recalling what I can from it, I agree that Ed wanted mystery when it came from the gods, but not so mysterious that they were this distant, removed force that might as well not be there. The gods are a part of the setting, and are part of the lives of Faerunians, whether they send a withering rose, or they appear for a moment to dance in the moonlight with their followers. Even if they weren't meant to be characters, having sourcebooks like Demihuman Deities, Faiths and Pantheons, and others, that tell about their dogma, their history, etc, are invaluable. It helps show they are a part of the setting, whether they interact directly or indirectly. Even if followers of Lathander have to figure out what on Toril he meant by that flower, it is still a flower from Lathander.
In novels, again, I think a balance can be struck. I actually liked having the gods as characters in the Avatar books, even if the ToT event itself was "a bit much". It was fun for me to see how the gods interacted with each other. I also enjoyed books like the Finder's Stone. Again, I think there's a balance. I loved the way Elaine showed the Seldarine and the banishment of Araunshnee in Evermeet. These instances makes the gods believable characters, while remaining gods. Take away all the mystery, then yes, that ruins the fun. To use the spice analogy from earlier, too much turns the food distasteful, but just enough can add, well, spice and zest
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jul 2017 22:23:12 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6351 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 22:21:08
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
When i get time i intend to break uo the monolithic churches into smaller churches that cooperate, compete, and conquer within their own religion and across others. Each having its own subtle differences in dogma and tenets (there are or were three churches of bane at least, and the cell based religions have hundreds of different cells). Only religions like tyr and helm should be single entities.
Why do you have "monolithic churches" in the first place, then? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 22:34:43
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59W4ElcxkA
Found it! It is a panel, I think from GenCon 2014, so they are discussing the Sundering and the six books the authors in the panel are writing. It's kind of long, but Ed starts talking about his original intent around 22:28, I believe. Watching/listening to it again, he did say that in his original Realms, it was true the gods were not meant to directly appear. They appeared in dreams/visions, or you went to a temple and prayed, and a sign from the god would appear, or a cryptic message would roll through your head. So yes, more mystery. However, that still makes the gods a powerful force in the Realms. Involved, and still very much a part of the Realms, but via more mysterious means. I would still argue that since gods have "established signs", if you will, you are going to know the rose is from Lathander. What you don't know is what he wants.
I don't mind indirect interactions. What I would mind is removing them to the point they might as well not be there, because even with the rose from Lathander, there isn't the question of Lathander's existence. I don't want the "well, maybe they exist, maybe they don't", to come into the Realms, because that takes away the spice entirely. Realmsians have long known the gods exist, whether they understand them or not. Yes, faith is part of it, but faith works differently in the Realms than it does in the RW. Their existence is fact. What they want you to do with the signals they send is up to the DM or the writer, if it's a novel. Ed's original intent, at least from my understanding of the panel, was to make them awe-inspiring and mysterious, but not removed and distant (albeit perhaps more distant than they have been, since they would be no longer be directly appearing). Just not so distant they don't do anything.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 04 Jul 2017 01:22:01 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 22:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Yet even in Ed's realms, the gods were a part of the setting. They acted more indirectly, but they were still active. I remember watching an interview with him (I think it was at the beginning of 5e). Say Chauntea sends a signal to her followers in the form of a rose or some such. From a gaming standpoint, the players then have to figure out what it is Chauntea wants them to do. That doesn't mean however that the rose isn't from Chauntea, it just means she is communicating with her followers via more indirect means, rather than appearing "in the felsh".
You can still have fun and mystery with the gods in the setting. They don't have to be removed and distant for there to be intrigue.
What you just described is exactly how Ed has consistently talked about how things work in the Realms.
However, I think there needs to be a divide between how the average commoner views these things and novel characters/players. When dealing with novel characters or players we tend to be dealing with much more high fantasy things. In the novels, simple manifestations like this were given up in favor of more overt means of communication. This has skewed the way players (and fans of the setting) view how the gods function in the Realms.
In a small farming village in Cormyr, as the fields are being prepared for their plowing and planting in the spring, a rosebush suddenly springs to life before a young farm girl, forms a bud, and blossoms. It is the first sign of renewal and rebirth of the land after the winter--the girl, witnessing this miracle, runs to tell the other villagers. They gather around the rose and remark upon its meaning. It is a clear sign and omen from the gods. It is a good sign. The people mostly believe it comes from Chauntea, and virtually everyone believes that it means good things are coming their way in terms of weather and harvests. Some people disagree, however, and believe the sign was sent by Lathander, declaring that there will be an early spring and a time of renewal and new beginnings for the village. The village elders decide to throw a festival to the gods and split the difference. They make sacrifices and offerings to both Lathander and Chauntea--to cover both of those bases. They also make sacrifices and offerings to Talos, in order to placate his jealous wrath--if Lathander and Chauntea are praised and he is not, he may intervene to punish them for neglecting to sing his praises as well. "We beseech Chauntea to make our fields blossom like the rose, for Lathander to bring forth the spring, and for Talos to stay his hand."
The young farm girl who witnessed the minor miracle becomes the focal point of attention for the festival. She is obviously blessed by the gods, having been privileged to witness such a miracle take place in person. She plays a key role in the religious ceremonies. Word spreads throughout the local region of the miracle, acolytes of Chauntea and Lathander arrive in the village to witness the results of the miracle for themselves and question the girl. The odds are good that she goes off with one of the acolytes to become an acolyte herself, and will in a few years time return to the village as an ordained member of one of those cults. When the acolytes arrive they will find offerings made all throughout the village, in particular, many lay around the rosebush. The offerings will not only be from the villagers but surrounding communities who heard of the miracle and sent their own offerings to the village--hoping some of the positive attention of the gods will also rub off on them.
If things turn out poorly, or not as good as expected, then the people will believe that they have done something to offend the deities. This means they will need to double or triple down. If things turn out as good or better than expected, then the people will believe that their actions paid off and the gods were pleased. This also means they need to double or triple down--or at least maintain the status quo--in order to maintain the favor of the deities.
All of this happened because a single rose bloomed in a way that was unmistakenly supernatural. Viewing the Realms as a whole stuff like this happens all the time. However, on the local level it is pretty rare--once every few generations type occurrence. The elder folk of the village would remember the last sign sent by the gods and will tell people what happened--whether things went well or poorly, and that will influence how people react to it. If there is an actual priest or religious figure nearby or within the village, they will interpret the omen through their own lens and will have a great deal of influence over how the people react to it--as well as what they think about it.
This is how 95% of all divine interactions with the mortal world play out. Dream visions, symbols, omens, signs--etc. What happens and takes place in novels or for player characters is the other 5% where the deities are much more overt and direct. The problem is that because that is the framework through which we are most often exposed to the Realms, we make the incorrect assumption that the 5% we see is the full and total picture of what it looks like throughout--and it is not.
Of course, there are also logical problems with that 5% portrayal as well. For example, if Chauntea can show up in person easily, why bother making the rose bloom in the first place? Why leave things up to fallible mortal interpretation? What happens if mortals interpret it wrong, should she show up to correct them, and if not why doesn't she do that? Simply waving our hands and exclaiming, "Divine mystery! It's magic! It's unknowable!" Is a poor explanation and is immersion breaking.
It makes better sense to cut the 5% which is inconsistent, and make the 95% into 100% so that the portrayal of the deities is always consistent--whether to powerful novel characters, player characters or to some random farm girl. This is the balance I am talking about--the space between how things are handled in Eberron and how they are handled in the Realms novels. The deities are very clearly real, they are intervening in direct ways with the mortal world, but they are not handing out lists of instructions to the faithful. Mortals need to interpret stuff and figure it out for themselves, and mortals of good will and honest intent (as well as those who have bad will and dishonest intent) can interpret things differently. This creates a degree of separation between the deities and their faithful, and it also keeps the focus where it belongs: on the mortals. This also avoids all of the pitfalls and problems that we have seen with how the deities have been handled in the setting, while not cutting them out or ignoring them and their influence. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 22:45:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
It makes better sense to cut the 5% which is inconsistent, and make the 95% into 100% so that the portrayal of the deities is always consistent--whether to powerful novel characters, player characters or to some random farm girl. This is the balance I am talking about--the space between how things are handled in Eberron and how they are handled in the Realms novels. The deities are very clearly real, they are intervening in direct ways with the mortal world, but they are not handing out lists of instructions to the faithful. Mortals need to interpret stuff and figure it out for themselves, and mortals of good will and honest intent (as well as those who have bad will and dishonest intent) can interpret things differently. This creates a degree of separation between the deities and their faithful, and it also keeps the focus where it belongs: on the mortals. This also avoids all of the pitfalls and problems that we have seen with how the deities have been handled in the setting, while not cutting them out or ignoring them and their influence.
I can see this. I think I posted my last post seconds before you did lol. I am probably one of the few who doesn't mind the gods as characters, but I am also content with indirect interaction (like roses). While I would personally go for a little more clarity (the knowledge of whether the rosebush belongs to Chauntea or Lathander), it makes sense that in a remote village, the villages would pay homage to both, and to Talos. This is a fairly common Faerunian practice, anyway, since it's a polytheistic society. They deities are real, and not kept so far away they just hang out and watch mortals do their thing, but they aren't sitting down and chatting with you, either. So long as the knowledge of their existence remains, I don't care if they act through visions or appear before someone.
I'm repeating myself. The gods are just an element of the Realms I feel very strongly about.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jul 2017 22:59:43 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 22:59:40
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Trying to interpret is part of the fun, yes, especially in game. I'll have to see if I can find that interview. I think it was a GenCon panel. It might take some time to find it. Recalling what I can from it, I agree that Ed wanted mystery when it came from the gods, but not so mysterious that they were this distant, removed force that might as well not be there. The gods are a part of the setting, and are part of the lives of Faerunians, whether they send a withering rose, or they appear for a moment to dance in the moonlight with their followers. Even if they weren't meant to be characters, having sourcebooks like Demihuman Deities, Faiths and Pantheons, and others, that tell about their dogma, their history, etc, are invaluable. It helps show they are a part of the setting, whether they interact directly or indirectly. Even if followers of Lathander have to figure out what on Toril he meant by that flower, it is still a flower from Lathander.
In novels, again, I think a balance can be struck. I actually liked having the gods as characters in the Avatar books, even if the ToT event itself was "a bit much". It was fun for me to see how the gods interacted with each other. I also enjoyed books like the Finder's Stone. Again, I think there's a balance. I loved the way Elaine showed the Seldarine and the banishment of Araunshnee in Evermeet. These instances makes the gods believable characters, while remaining gods. Take away all the mystery, then yes, that ruins the fun. To use the spice analogy from earlier, too much turns the food distasteful, but just enough can add, well, spice and zest
The thing is that most of that stuff--like the banishment of Araunshnee--can easily be seen as religious lore. The faithful can, and probably do, write about and talk about their deities as characters. I mean, think of it in terms of the Greeks and Romans. They clearly believed in the existence of their deities, but Zeus clearly was not strolling down the street. The people were looking for signs, symbols, and omens from the deities to figure out what they wanted, even if in their religious mythology Zeus was showing up all the time to have sex with (more accurately: rape) this person or other. The difference between the Greeks and how they viewed/treated their deities is that in the Realms the signs, symbols, omens, and dreams really are supernatural and real. They are also accompanied by supernatural manifestations. No one can really deny that supernatural and miraculous things take place, though they can disagree on the reasons why and what it means--even who caused it to happen.
So, we have a situation like with the banishment of Araunshnee, that is what the faithful of Corellon believe to be true. The faithful of Lolth might believe a different version of events. There might even be heretic and heterodox sects of both groups who have slight to extreme variances of the accepted religious lore/mythology. The people of all those sects believe that they have the truth, but the fact of the matter is that they could all be completely wrong. For all we know the faith of Lolth might have begun on an entirely different world, and Lolth is an interloper deity on Toril that infiltrated the cult of Araunshnee and took it over from within, sowing chaos as a result. The stories that developed out of that were just mortal interpretations of events.
One of the things that helps make the Realms interesting and great, is that a character (whether in a game or in a novel) could be exploring Illythari ruins and then find fragment and ancient writings that contradict the orthodox teachings of both the clergy of Lolth and Corellon. Is that finding the "real truth" or just some ancient propaganda? The answer is that there is no real way of knowing. The interesting thing in the setting is the fallout and consequences of the finding and the conflicts it causes--not its actual truthfulness, to which people on all sides can either agree with or dispute according to their own beliefs and agenda.
This has the effect of growing the setting and the lore, rather than contracting it by giving definitive answers. It also makes places like Candlekeep interesting, because it gives us something to discuss and debate. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 23:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Trying to interpret is part of the fun, yes, especially in game. I'll have to see if I can find that interview. I think it was a GenCon panel. It might take some time to find it. Recalling what I can from it, I agree that Ed wanted mystery when it came from the gods, but not so mysterious that they were this distant, removed force that might as well not be there. The gods are a part of the setting, and are part of the lives of Faerunians, whether they send a withering rose, or they appear for a moment to dance in the moonlight with their followers. Even if they weren't meant to be characters, having sourcebooks like Demihuman Deities, Faiths and Pantheons, and others, that tell about their dogma, their history, etc, are invaluable. It helps show they are a part of the setting, whether they interact directly or indirectly. Even if followers of Lathander have to figure out what on Toril he meant by that flower, it is still a flower from Lathander.
In novels, again, I think a balance can be struck. I actually liked having the gods as characters in the Avatar books, even if the ToT event itself was "a bit much". It was fun for me to see how the gods interacted with each other. I also enjoyed books like the Finder's Stone. Again, I think there's a balance. I loved the way Elaine showed the Seldarine and the banishment of Araunshnee in Evermeet. These instances makes the gods believable characters, while remaining gods. Take away all the mystery, then yes, that ruins the fun. To use the spice analogy from earlier, too much turns the food distasteful, but just enough can add, well, spice and zest
The thing is that most of that stuff--like the banishment of Araunshnee--can easily be seen as religious lore. The faithful can, and probably do, write about and talk about their deities as characters. I mean, think of it in terms of the Greeks and Romans. They clearly believed in the existence of their deities, but Zeus clearly was not strolling down the street. The people were looking for signs, symbols, and omens from the deities to figure out what they wanted, even if in their religious mythology Zeus was showing up all the time to have sex with (more accurately: rape) this person or other. The difference between the Greeks and how they viewed/treated their deities is that in the Realms the signs, symbols, omens, and dreams really are supernatural and real. They are also accompanied by supernatural manifestations. No one can really deny that supernatural and miraculous things take place, though they can disagree on the reasons why and what it means--even who caused it to happen.
So, we have a situation like with the banishment of Araunshnee, that is what the faithful of Corellon believe to be true. The faithful of Lolth might believe a different version of events. There might even be heretic and heterodox sects of both groups who have slight to extreme variances of the accepted religious lore/mythology. The people of all those sects believe that they have the truth, but the fact of the matter is that they could all be completely wrong. For all we know the faith of Lolth might have begun on an entirely different world, and Lolth is an interloper deity on Toril that infiltrated the cult of Araunshnee and took it over from within, sowing chaos as a result. The stories that developed out of that were just mortal interpretations of events.
One of the things that helps make the Realms interesting and great, is that a character (whether in a game or in a novel) could be exploring Illythari ruins and then find fragment and ancient writings that contradict the orthodox teachings of both the clergy of Lolth and Corellon. Is that finding the "real truth" or just some ancient propaganda? The answer is that there is no real way of knowing. The interesting thing in the setting is the fallout and consequences of the finding and the conflicts it causes--not its actual truthfulness, to which people on all sides can either agree with or dispute according to their own beliefs and agenda.
This has the effect of growing the setting and the lore, rather than contracting it by giving definitive answers. It also makes places like Candlekeep interesting, because it gives us something to discuss and debate.
Oh, the drow do contest it lol. They have a different idea of what happened. I used the banishment of Araunshnee as (what I thought) was a good usage of how the deities can be characters, at least as far as the novels go. The "godly events" are in the prologue/beginning of the book (I have seen this in novels outside the Realms, too), and the rest of the novel is about the mortal characters, with the deity interacting via more indirect ways (the rosebush). That way, you keep the balance.
The Greeks and the Romans believed in the gods, and as you said, looked for signs (and likely saw what they thought were signs). The difference of course being that in the Realms, the gods are very real. Again, it's about the balance. Too much mystery, and it would be harder to have these interesting discussions, because we would have no basis for any of it. Too little mystery, and it takes away the well, mystery. With at least some grounding, we can have interesting discussions like this one and the "cosmology theories" thread, among others. It allows us to gain a foothold to support our arguments, but still leaves room for the discussion and debate to happen.
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Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 03 Jul 2017 23:17:54 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2017 : 23:25:37
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59W4ElcxkA
Found it! It is a panel, I think from GenCon 2014, so they are discussing the Sundering and the six books the authors in the panel are writing. It's kind of long, but Ed starts talking about his original intent around 22:40, I believe. Watching/listening to it again, he did say that in his original Realms, it was true the gods were not meant to directly appear. They appeared in dreams/visions, or you went to a temple and prayed, and a sign from the god would appear, or a cryptic message would roll through your head. So yes, more mystery. However, that still makes the gods a powerful force in the Realms. Involved, and still very much a part of the Realms, but via more mysterious means. I would still argue that since gods have "established signs", if you will, you are going to know the rose is from Lathander. What you don't know is what he wants.
I don't mind indirect interactions. What I would mind is removing them to the point they might as well not be there, because even with the rose from Lathander, there isn't the question of Lathander's existence. I don't want the "well, maybe they exist, maybe they don't", to come into the Realms, because that takes away the spice entirely. Realmsians have long known the gods exist, whether they understand them or not. Yes, faith is part of it, but faith works differently in the Realms than it does in the RW. Their existence is fact. What they want you to do with the signals they send is up to the DM or the writer, if it's a novel. Ed's original intent, at least from my understanding of the panel, was to make them awe-inspiring and mysterious, but not removed and distant (albeit perhaps more distant than they have been, since they would be no longer be directly appearing). Just not so distant they don't do anything.
Thanks for finding that interview CorellonsDevout. I remember that panel. People should go listen to it. The part where Ed talks about the deities and his original intent start at 28:28--the question starts there and Ed discusses it for several minutes.
It pretty much goes to what I have been writing here in the thread. Ed has been very consistent over the years in what he has written here on Candlekeep, just like in that interview. Ed also in his response there, outlines exactly the problems that I laid out with having the deities make direct "in the flesh" appearances and the consequences of having done that in the canon. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:02:16
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| If someone can explain the Dawn Cataclysm to me, I will be most grateful. Because I never understand it. |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
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Originally posted by dazzlerdal
When i get time i intend to break uo the monolithic churches into smaller churches that cooperate, compete, and conquer within their own religion and across others. Each having its own subtle differences in dogma and tenets (there are or were three churches of bane at least, and the cell based religions have hundreds of different cells). Only religions like tyr and helm should be single entities.
Why do you have "monolithic churches" in the first place, then?
Simplicity. Stuff like what is in Faiths and Pantheons and Faiths and Avatars should be viewed as an overview of the cult and the widely held beliefs about the deity in question. It should not be read as what everyone believes universally, and indeed in many of the entries they talk about different sects and groups who do disagree with one another.
It would be better to cover what each individual cult believes, what geographical regions the cult is active in, and all sorts of stuff related to the beliefs and practices of that particular group of worshipers. The downside of that is that only a small handful of deities get any focus at all, while the others get neglected.
I also recommend reading the deity writeups in Elminster's Forgotten Realms. Not only does it expand on the deities dogmas by more clearly outlining their creeds, it also defines the secular aims of the various cults (and how some of them conflict). This is an underutilized resource. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:20:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If someone can explain the Dawn Cataclysm to me, I will be most grateful. Because I never understand it.
In short, the DC was Lathander's failed attempt to reconstruct the pantheon in his image. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 00:29:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If someone can explain the Dawn Cataclysm to me, I will be most grateful. Because I never understand it.
Talking about what the Dawn Cataclysm is difficult and complicated. It is not a single event in history, but rather something that took place over time. There is disagreement about when it began and when it ended. The most accepted view is that it was caused by Lathander, whose intent was likely to reshape the Faerunian pantheon. He probably wanted to get rid of the evil deities, and it is also believed that his plans were thwarted by Shar. The death of several deities such as Tyche and Murdane are placed at the feet of Lathander as a result.
One of the central problems is that it is unclear how much is mythology and how much is fact. There are no hard and fixed dates for a lot of these events, and most of them seem to have happened over time. Looking at things from a post-Time of Troubles perspective this is confusing, as people expect the deities to just show up and do stuff. Yet, that clearly did not happen here.
In the broader sense, the events took place after the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath. Prior to this point there were a number of different human pantheons in the Realms. The Netherese had their own pantheon of deities, the Jhaamdathan's had their own, the Calishites had theirs, etc. There were other human realms as well with their own deities such as the Talfric pantheon. After the fall of these empires, particularly that of Netheril, there started to be a lot of intermixing. Cults from one region started to appear in another, and this led to a lot of conflicts.
It is in this context that the Dawn Cataclysm happened. It was likely an attempt by the mortal worshipers of Lathander to create a strongly unified pantheon of deities, such as you might see among the Dwarves, Elves, or the Mulhorandi. It also would have been what people would have been most used too. That attempt failed, and the result is the loosely held together Farunian pantheon we are familiar with today. It is also likely unfair to lay the blame entirely at the feet of the faithful of Lathander, as it is likely that many other cults had similar ideas. Lathander just receives the bulk of the blame.
It probably didn't help that many of his faithful also believed in what they called "the Deliverance." Most of them likely believed that this was the Dawn Cataclysm 2.0, except this time Lathander would be successful. It is also likely one of the reasons so many followers of Lathander got sucked into the Risen Sun Heresy, believing that it was a sign from their deity that the Deliverance was upon them. |
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Zeromaru X
Great Reader
Colombia
2442 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 01:11:59
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So, its much like the Middle Dawn of TES? Interesting.
I guess this Deliverance is all of this stuff about Lathander being Amaunator, right? |
Instead of seeking change, you prefer a void, merciless abyss of a world... |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 01:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
So, its much like the Middle Dawn of TES? Interesting.
I guess this Deliverance is all of this stuff about Lathander being Amaunator, right?
Yes. There was a division in the Lathander church about the Deliverance. Some within the faith believed he was going to become Amaunataur, and others believed it heresy. They touch on it in the Twilight Wars.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 01:47:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Of course, there are also logical problems with that 5% portrayal as well. For example, if Chauntea can show up in person easily, why bother making the rose bloom in the first place? Why leave things up to fallible mortal interpretation? What happens if mortals interpret it wrong, should she show up to correct them, and if not why doesn't she do that? Simply waving our hands and exclaiming, "Divine mystery! It's magic! It's unknowable!" Is a poor explanation and is immersion breaking.
It makes better sense to cut the 5% which is inconsistent, and make the 95% into 100% so that the portrayal of the deities is always consistent--whether to powerful novel characters, player characters or to some random farm girl. This is the balance I am talking about--the space between how things are handled in Eberron and how they are handled in the Realms novels. The deities are very clearly real, they are intervening in direct ways with the mortal world, but they are not handing out lists of instructions to the faithful. Mortals need to interpret stuff and figure it out for themselves, and mortals of good will and honest intent (as well as those who have bad will and dishonest intent) can interpret things differently. This creates a degree of separation between the deities and their faithful, and it also keeps the focus where it belongs: on the mortals. This also avoids all of the pitfalls and problems that we have seen with how the deities have been handled in the setting, while not cutting them out or ignoring them and their influence.
The 5% can be explained in various ways. 1)deities do not always need to communicate overtly. It would only make sense for more direct messages or divine servitors to be sent in urgent situations, but the rest? It's ok to show something that symbolizes what the deity stands for 2)It requires power to manifest. If it's not needed why spend it? 3)Deities can only have up to a certain number of avatars, and they cannot be everywhere at the same time, in addition to dealing with affairs on the outer planes, rather than mortal affairs.
The focus will be on the mortals as well, mortals will interpret sings and stuff (except in urgent situations, which require clarity in-world. Mystery for its own sake just doesn't make sense, and even if deities couldn't manifest directly, sending servants to explain the situation should be the fist thing that they would do). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 04 Jul 2017 01:50:10 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 02:00:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59W4ElcxkA
Found it! It is a panel, I think from GenCon 2014, so they are discussing the Sundering and the six books the authors in the panel are writing. It's kind of long, but Ed starts talking about his original intent around 22:40, I believe. Watching/listening to it again, he did say that in his original Realms, it was true the gods were not meant to directly appear. They appeared in dreams/visions, or you went to a temple and prayed, and a sign from the god would appear, or a cryptic message would roll through your head. So yes, more mystery. However, that still makes the gods a powerful force in the Realms. Involved, and still very much a part of the Realms, but via more mysterious means. I would still argue that since gods have "established signs", if you will, you are going to know the rose is from Lathander. What you don't know is what he wants.
I don't mind indirect interactions. What I would mind is removing them to the point they might as well not be there, because even with the rose from Lathander, there isn't the question of Lathander's existence. I don't want the "well, maybe they exist, maybe they don't", to come into the Realms, because that takes away the spice entirely. Realmsians have long known the gods exist, whether they understand them or not. Yes, faith is part of it, but faith works differently in the Realms than it does in the RW. Their existence is fact. What they want you to do with the signals they send is up to the DM or the writer, if it's a novel. Ed's original intent, at least from my understanding of the panel, was to make them awe-inspiring and mysterious, but not removed and distant (albeit perhaps more distant than they have been, since they would be no longer be directly appearing). Just not so distant they don't do anything.
Thanks for finding that interview CorellonsDevout. I remember that panel. People should go listen to it. The part where Ed talks about the deities and his original intent start at 28:28--the question starts there and Ed discusses it for several minutes.
It pretty much goes to what I have been writing here in the thread. Ed has been very consistent over the years in what he has written here on Candlekeep, just like in that interview. Ed also in his response there, outlines exactly the problems that I laid out with having the deities make direct "in the flesh" appearances and the consequences of having done that in the canon.
Sure (sorry, meant to respond to this one earlier, but I got sidetracked). I thought it was around 22:40, but 22:28 would probably be more accurate. I edited the post to include the correct time.
I would still argue that certain things in regards to the lore of the gods could be facts, but others are left to interpretation (like the differing stories of the drow and the elves, or elves and orcs, even). Also, as I said, many of the gods have established signs that they send their followers, so the confusion about the rosebush may not be as likely to happen. Then again, in a remote village, perhaps such a thing is more likely. In either case, if they knew the rosebush was a sign from Chauntea, they would still have to figure out what she is trying to tell them (maybe the local cleric, or the girl, since she was "chosen" to see the sign) may also receive visions or dreams, or Chauntea speaking cryptically. This keeps the mystery while also keeping Chauntea involved with her followers.
The main reason I advocate for the "established signs" is that, since the gods are a large part of the Realms, however it is they interact with their followers, and their existence is fact, it would seem to me that they would make sure there are certain things their followers know (like what kind of signs they give when they are trying to tell their followers something). They may not be able to say directly what it is they want their followers to do, but they can at least get their attention. If Chauntea and Lathander used the same signs all the time, there would be much confusion, and that could lead to its own kind of chaos, which could be just as bad for the gods as it could the mortals, kind of like what Irennan just pointed out. Mystery for the sake of mystery isn't going to always be beneficial.
I like that there have been moments in history where, for better or worse, the gods have directly intervened (and I mean pre-ToT) One example is the Crown Wars, and I don't mean just the Descent. I mean the "stop this now, or you all get slapped" intervention, which led to the founding of the Elven Court. I think that adds to the flavor to Realms, as well, and it was "off screen", anyway, if that makes sense. Same with Dawn Cataclysm. We know it happened, even if we aren't sure when (I have been skimming through my copy of Grand History of the Realms lately), and I like seeing both the mortal and deific history. Adds that spice we've been talking about. ;) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 04 Jul 2017 02:03:45 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 04:32:31
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s59W4ElcxkA
Found it! It is a panel, I think from GenCon 2014, so they are discussing the Sundering and the six books the authors in the panel are writing. It's kind of long, but Ed starts talking about his original intent around 22:40, I believe. Watching/listening to it again, he did say that in his original Realms, it was true the gods were not meant to directly appear. They appeared in dreams/visions, or you went to a temple and prayed, and a sign from the god would appear, or a cryptic message would roll through your head. So yes, more mystery. However, that still makes the gods a powerful force in the Realms. Involved, and still very much a part of the Realms, but via more mysterious means. I would still argue that since gods have "established signs", if you will, you are going to know the rose is from Lathander. What you don't know is what he wants.
I don't mind indirect interactions. What I would mind is removing them to the point they might as well not be there, because even with the rose from Lathander, there isn't the question of Lathander's existence. I don't want the "well, maybe they exist, maybe they don't", to come into the Realms, because that takes away the spice entirely. Realmsians have long known the gods exist, whether they understand them or not. Yes, faith is part of it, but faith works differently in the Realms than it does in the RW. Their existence is fact. What they want you to do with the signals they send is up to the DM or the writer, if it's a novel. Ed's original intent, at least from my understanding of the panel, was to make them awe-inspiring and mysterious, but not removed and distant (albeit perhaps more distant than they have been, since they would be no longer be directly appearing). Just not so distant they don't do anything.
Thanks for finding that interview CorellonsDevout. I remember that panel. People should go listen to it. The part where Ed talks about the deities and his original intent start at 28:28--the question starts there and Ed discusses it for several minutes.
It pretty much goes to what I have been writing here in the thread. Ed has been very consistent over the years in what he has written here on Candlekeep, just like in that interview. Ed also in his response there, outlines exactly the problems that I laid out with having the deities make direct "in the flesh" appearances and the consequences of having done that in the canon.
Sure (sorry, meant to respond to this one earlier, but I got sidetracked). I thought it was around 22:40, but 22:28 would probably be more accurate. I edited the post to include the correct time.
I would still argue that certain things in regards to the lore of the gods could be facts, but others are left to interpretation (like the differing stories of the drow and the elves, or elves and orcs, even). Also, as I said, many of the gods have established signs that they send their followers, so the confusion about the rosebush may not be as likely to happen. Then again, in a remote village, perhaps such a thing is more likely. In either case, if they knew the rosebush was a sign from Chauntea, they would still have to figure out what she is trying to tell them (maybe the local cleric, or the girl, since she was "chosen" to see the sign) may also receive visions or dreams, or Chauntea speaking cryptically. This keeps the mystery while also keeping Chauntea involved with her followers.
The main reason I advocate for the "established signs" is that, since the gods are a large part of the Realms, however it is they interact with their followers, and their existence is fact, it would seem to me that they would make sure there are certain things their followers know (like what kind of signs they give when they are trying to tell their followers something). They may not be able to say directly what it is they want their followers to do, but they can at least get their attention. If Chauntea and Lathander used the same signs all the time, there would be much confusion, and that could lead to its own kind of chaos, which could be just as bad for the gods as it could the mortals, kind of like what Irennan just pointed out. Mystery for the sake of mystery isn't going to always be beneficial.
I like that there have been moments in history where, for better or worse, the gods have directly intervened (and I mean pre-ToT) One example is the Crown Wars, and I don't mean just the Descent. I mean the "stop this now, or you all get slapped" intervention, which led to the founding of the Elven Court. I think that adds to the flavor to Realms, as well, and it was "off screen", anyway, if that makes sense. Same with Dawn Cataclysm. We know it happened, even if we aren't sure when (I have been skimming through my copy of Grand History of the Realms lately), and I like seeing both the mortal and deific history. Adds that spice we've been talking about. ;)
The deities do usually have established methods of manifesting in the Realms--that's canon. It's been canon for a long time. It is just rarely used. 
I randomly selected a deity from Faiths and Avatars, which happened to be Deneir. According to F&A, Deneir prefers to manifest as a glowing nimbus of light around a book, and if a mortal opens the book the radiance will move around to indicate things. For example, the radiance might highlight certain key passages or pages--the deity is trying to draw the mortals attention to something specific in this case. Deneir can also manifest as a disembodied glowing hand, which can telekinetically move books or other objects around the room, gesture, and cast spells. Deneir rarely speaks when manifesting, and when appearing as the hand will write with silent letters of fire in midair or in a mortal's mind.
This second type of intervention--the glowing hand--is obviously super rare. This is when the deity is doing its best to commune with the mortal urgently. Obviously, even then there is some room for interpretation--Deneir is not going to write out a list of instructions or orders. Instead, it will be a single word or a short phrase.
F&A also, it should be noted, does exactly what I did in drawing a distinction between the novels and the setting. On page 20, under Running Powers in the Realms, the following is written:
"Many Realms novels have depicted the powers of the Realms as being involved in all sorts of intimate details of Realms life. These are the behaviors of characters in novels. They are supposed to be dramatic, bold, and bigger than life. Novels need to bring the reader in close to the inner workings of their characters’ minds so that readers can identify with the novels’ leading characters. They need to accomplish their storytelling task with a limited cast of characters to keep the experience of the story intimate and coherent for a reader. That does not mean that the powers of the Realms need to talk routinely to anyone face-to-face in a DM’s own campaign. Just because the novels about the Realms have often spotlighted the powers does not mean AD&D game campaign play has to.
The most important principle in having deities in a fantasy role-playing campaign is to use them judiciously and sparingly in one’s campaign play. It is certainly possible to run a high-level role-playing game in which deities commonly appear for the purpose of helping player characters. But such a campaign usually stops being fun for the characters very quickly. The AD&D game is designed for a more mortal level of play. The player characters are heroic not because of the tremendous powers they might or might not accumulate, but because of the terrible risks they take in the face of imminent death. To use a power to save characters from those risks time and time again is to sully the heart of the game.
This conflict between the way the novels have portrayed the Realms vs how things really were in the setting vs what Ed intended has been going on for a long time. However, it was really the Time of Troubles which opened the real can of worms which we have never been able to close. Ever since that point, the Realms has spiraled from one RSE catastrophe to another, ultimately leading us to the events of 4th Edition. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 04:49:33
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Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Of course, there are also logical problems with that 5% portrayal as well. For example, if Chauntea can show up in person easily, why bother making the rose bloom in the first place? Why leave things up to fallible mortal interpretation? What happens if mortals interpret it wrong, should she show up to correct them, and if not why doesn't she do that? Simply waving our hands and exclaiming, "Divine mystery! It's magic! It's unknowable!" Is a poor explanation and is immersion breaking.
It makes better sense to cut the 5% which is inconsistent, and make the 95% into 100% so that the portrayal of the deities is always consistent--whether to powerful novel characters, player characters or to some random farm girl. This is the balance I am talking about--the space between how things are handled in Eberron and how they are handled in the Realms novels. The deities are very clearly real, they are intervening in direct ways with the mortal world, but they are not handing out lists of instructions to the faithful. Mortals need to interpret stuff and figure it out for themselves, and mortals of good will and honest intent (as well as those who have bad will and dishonest intent) can interpret things differently. This creates a degree of separation between the deities and their faithful, and it also keeps the focus where it belongs: on the mortals. This also avoids all of the pitfalls and problems that we have seen with how the deities have been handled in the setting, while not cutting them out or ignoring them and their influence.
The 5% can be explained in various ways. 1)deities do not always need to communicate overtly. It would only make sense for more direct messages or divine servitors to be sent in urgent situations, but the rest? It's ok to show something that symbolizes what the deity stands for 2)It requires power to manifest. If it's not needed why spend it? 3)Deities can only have up to a certain number of avatars, and they cannot be everywhere at the same time, in addition to dealing with affairs on the outer planes, rather than mortal affairs.
The focus will be on the mortals as well, mortals will interpret sings and stuff (except in urgent situations, which require clarity in-world. Mystery for its own sake just doesn't make sense, and even if deities couldn't manifest directly, sending servants to explain the situation should be the fist thing that they would do).
I agree that mystery for the sake of mystery is silly. However, having a direct line to the thoughts of the deity is hugely problematic. Simply put, every heresy that has ever existed in the Realms could be cleared up easily. Deities that can directly communicate in unambiguous ways with mortal followers eliminate them. The only way to explain their existence is to exclaim, "The gods work in mysterious ways!" And of course, that is unsatisfactory if the deities central cult is being ripped apart by an internal civil war.
There should always be at least some uncertainty when it comes to the deities--even if the likelihood of being wrong is remote.
When it comes to divine servitors, they should not have any more direct connection to the deity than mortals. They are simply the embodiments of aspects of what the deity represents and exist to carry out the deities divine will as they interpret it to be and their essence/existence dictates. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2017 : 11:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
If someone can explain the Dawn Cataclysm to me, I will be most grateful. Because I never understand it.
I posted this in another thread a while back, it's my take:
Lathander is a lesser deity of Jhaamdath who gets a huge boost in faith when the post-fall-of-Netheril diaspora peoples turn to him as a symbol of hope and new beginnings. This boost is made especially easy by Netherese discarding Amaunator, a rival sun deity of the Netherese pantheon. Lathander gets so excited he decides to lead the gods of the varied pantheons to combine into the Faerunian pantheon, which he intends to lead and mould to his liking.
Faiths & Avatars contains the definitive version of the myth.
Around -339 DR: Netherese survivors come to Jhaamdath, and come to worship Lathander. Lathander starts to grow in power, as the peoples of the world begin to mingle more and more, he seeks to redesign the Realms in his own image. He encourages great change in the world, and he gives roses to the Chosen who will carry this out.
Around -300 DR: Tyche takes a flower that she believes to be Lathander's, knowing of his vision as the two were in love, and plants it in her hair (for more on this, see Dragon 388). However, the flower she takes is actually the disguised Moander, but he does not destroy her yet - he instead corrupts any Chosen she creates from that point. This is the beginning of the Dawn Cataclysm.
-276 DR: The great Jhaamdathi metamind Dharien, a Chosen of Lathander, seizes control of Jhaamdath and begins to build a great armada so that he can build an empire in Lathander's name.. This fuels conflict with the elves of Nikerymath (GHotR).
-255 DR: High Mages of Nikerymath unleash a tidal wave that destroys Jhaamdath. There is some speculation that this is related to the death of Murdane at Umberlee's hands, and combined with the fact that Helm blames Lathander for Murdane's death and Murdane's death is related to the Dawn Cataclysm (GHotR), it is possible that Lathander's actions (possibly by encouraging Dharien) led to this event.
-137 DR: First recorded paladins of Lathander (though they likely existed before this) coming out of the Vilhon Reach to strike down a vampire king of Westgate (and take over rulership of that city).
75 DR: Moander's presence on Toril is weakened when he is imprisoned in Tsornyl (GHotR). However, the damage to Tyche has already been done.
136 DR: Azuth is no longer Magister.
161 DR: Last Chosen of Tyche dies within the coils of Moander's avatar (GHotR).
171 DR: Moander sealed away in Yulash, and high magic is used to banish him from the Realms (GHotR).
~700 DR: The full extent of Moander's damage to Tyche is revealed to be incurable, and Selune strikes Tyche with divine light, splitting her into two. The event leads to the creation of Tymora and Beshaba, and a schism in Tyche's church (FRCS). As Lathander considers his actions with the destruction of his love, the Dawn Cataclysm comes to an end, immediately before the fall of Myth Drannor in 714 DR (thus heralding it).
Over this time there is much divine conflict and the spreading of peoples across Faerun, and it finally results in the formation of the Faerunian pantheon - although without Lathander as a leader.
This version of the Dawn Cataclysm lasts for 1,000 years as timed by how long it takes for Moander's actions to lead to Tyche's destruction. The bits about the Chosen and Lathander being definitely from Jhaamdath are my own, but the rest is canon IIRC except for the timing of Tyche picking the rose.
Edit: For more on the time period and the Dawn Cataclysm, check out Faiths and Avatars p44, and GHotR pages 25 & 64. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 04 Jul 2017 11:51:29 |
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New Theory on Dawn Cataclysm
