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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7132 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2018 :  14:32:44  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

So what should go into race/subrace article.

I looked over Races of Faerun but there is a lot in there that is more specific to nations than a subrace of people.

For example a list of gods for a subrace does not seem appropriate because gods are regional and a subrace can be split across multiple regions. Names do not seem appropriate either because that is again regional. Language is not appropriate because it can be regional (for instance Unther and Mulhorand are Mulan but have two different but related languages.

So I've got history, I've got the outlook (Mulan agree with slavery and following law and order). What else is there that needs including?



If you're specifying some article on race/subrace, one of the biggest things I can see are identifying features of said race. For instance, in no uncertain terms, what are their general skin, eye, and hair colors. For instance, I've heard people use terms like swarthy, dusky, etc... which are ambiguous. Terms like "lightly tanned" or "heavily tanned" or "dark brown to black skinned" or "extremely pale skinned", etc... tends to be non-ambiguous.

Other things might be tracking the movements of said race over time. For instance, did they arrive "from across the sea, and modern scholars assume they came from as far away as Anchorome or even farther, though some scholars wonder if they didn't actually arrive from Abeir or even another world".... or did they "arrive suddenly via a gate believed to be down in the modern day country of X". Naming any major countries in the past that the race was prominent in that perhaps doesn't exist any longer. In doing this, I'd recommend several maps like those shown in the Horde box showing the state of where races were during certain points in time.

Along these lines, we have the races from Races of Faerun, but also consider the fact that we had Laerakond arrive, and it had new human subraces arrive as well. Were there any migrations as a result (however, since I know 4e doesn't exist to you, I don't see you pursuing this path).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 22 Mar 2018 14:37:54
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2018 :  15:51:22  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ahh yes, physical features makes sense.

Oh and I had an epiphany about the first humans recently. They originated near the okoth and borderkingdoms region and spread to with the sarrukh migration (who enslaved them).

So the turami and talfir and possibly chultans or a surface on the chultans peninsula and are all related to the origin species and evolved in isolation into separate subraces.

It explains why waelan is related to a language on an island in the sea of fallen stars (they both remained in isolation on islands as pureish examples of their related language while everywhere else the turami and talfir language mixed with their neighbours).

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  14:23:58  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had thought about human orgins on Toril for long time. Look at description of Janni as I belive they are the precursor of humans before they settled in Material Plane. It also explain how they evolved differently in each part of Toril and how they got there.
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  20:14:06  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What's the source for this jann origin, it sounds interesting.

Humans are native to toril, or so we think, but not all humans ethnicities are native to toril. In fact most human ethnicities seem to be from elsewhere.

The turami and talfir are likely the two native ethnicities and I think tashalan are the third. All descended from the same now vanished human ethnicity which existed along the South eastern shores of the lake of steam. It was enslaved by the sarrukh early on and spread with the sarrukh when they dispersed to found their empires.

The jann origin seems more likely for a single non native ethnicity and the calishite seem the most likely candidate in faerun.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  21:00:01  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair, I myself thought Talfir could be possibly related to Chondathans, or rather Jhaamadathans, if on the basis the eyes of Silvanus you are talking about were fairly in the centre centre of the Jhaamdathan Empire, and close to which Jhaamdathan's "started out".

Eldath is implied to be strongly be originally from the Talfiric pantheon, ie having an ancient place of worship, and posibly dwelling once on the Moonshade Isles, an ancient Talfiric bastion, as detailed in Dragon #376:
quote:
Myrloch: Oft featured in song, Myrloch is large
freshwater lake; its 800 square miles are deep, cold,
and clear. Centuries past illuskan settlers built
defensible, man-made islands on the loch, called
crannógs. Accessible by coracle, these small islands
served as shrines to the lake spirit Eldath. A handful
of crannóg remain today, preserved by nereids in
service to Sarifal.


Along with other details, like her relationship with Tempus (a confirmed Talfiric deity).

Yet Eldath name, contains the "dath" present also in Jhaamdath and Chondath.

Although I think Eldath was originally a fey deity, seing how she was conneted first closelly by Ed to Nymphs (worshipped by them, and though by Nymphs to be the source of some of their powers), in her first description, and to Nereids by Brain R. James.

It's also possible though the Turami could also be one or more of the tribes that founded Jhaamdath, mixied with other tribes to give rise to the Jhaamdathans (and eventually, Chondathans). With Eldath being an ancient Turami-Talfir power...if one that was originally an Archfey or Primal Spirit.

(Especially that seeing before the Time of Troubles, from what I know Eldath resided in the Materia Plane, it's possible she fully transitioned into a deity only after the Time of Troubles...)

The split between the Talfir and Turami (as well as Tashalans) would have to occur in pretty ancient times, as Talfir are described as fair skinned, of light eye colors and dark haired allready in quite ancient times (ie the Crown Wars).

It's more probable the Turami-Talfir that developed into the Talfir got lighter skinned, rather than vice-versa, as it's a more common process in nature among humans. Although that's a reall world detail


Edited by - Baltas on 23 Mar 2018 21:02:46
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  21:45:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well even if I pursued a deity centric model of religion I would consider what goes people worship now to be a poor indicator of events 30000 years ago (They die fairly regularly and are replaced by aliases of other gods far too often).
A religion centric model is even less reliable as churches are prone to change radically with events like was, revolution, migration.


I'm using language and migration as justification of origin. It's by no means e0000 years reliable but it's more reliable than religion. We know sarrukh took human slaves. Turami and talfir are old and are geographically near sarrukh lost empires.
Talfir fled to moonshaes from the heartlands and have a language association to a tiny isolated island in the vision reach. Turami have a stronghold in the vision although they now speak chondathan.

I don't believe turami turned into talfir or talfir into turami. More that 30000 years ago one people were separated by sarrukh enslavement and migration and that these now isolated groups evolved into turami, talfir, and tashalan over a period of 30000 years.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  22:12:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I didn't claim you meant Talfir came from Turami, or vice-verse, just that the separation had to occur in very ancient times, which why I described the original population as "Turami-Talfir", compare to the terms Indo-Iranians, or Indo-Europeans etc.

And I just think Eldath, might be just a Turami-Talfir deity, seeing her asociation with arguable cultural enclaves of both populations (ie the Moonshade Isles for Talfir (retained a Talfitic language), and the Eyes of Silvanus). With possibly Turami introducing Eldath to the Jhaamdath pantheon.

Again, I also suggested Eldath is quite probable a Fey Deity (probably being originally an Archfey or Primal Spirit), so it's possible both populations got the worship of Eldath from local Fey or Elves...
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 23 Mar 2018 :  22:24:21  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since the birth of the faerunian pantheon I don't think we can claim anything for certain about the religions and their origins. Migrants to the moonshaes from tether likely encountered the talfir living there and gave common names to the talfir spirits. Thus whatever the talfir called eldath before was lost as more and more adopted the illuskan language and Whelan became a language preserved only by their druids who use the illuskan name so younger generations will understand them.

But that is probably just my way of interpreting religion as I don't use deity centric models (where the deity is in control).

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Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  14:23:08  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

What's the source for this jann origin, it sounds interesting.

Humans are native to toril, or so we think, but not all humans ethnicities are native to toril. In fact most human ethnicities seem to be from elsewhere.

The turami and talfir are likely the two native ethnicities and I think tashalan are the third. All descended from the same now vanished human ethnicity which existed along the South eastern shores of the lake of steam. It was enslaved by the sarrukh early on and spread with the sarrukh when they dispersed to found their empires.

The jann origin seems more likely for a single non native ethnicity and the calishite seem the most likely candidate in faerun.



It came from my head :-) I do not like the evolution-like take with crossing from Earth so I have focused on Toril. As all other races humans were created by higher beings to populate Toril. In this case Janni were among the eldest as they came from Inner planes as messangers and servants of other elemental entities that carved and shaped Toril at those ancient times. For this reason they were special amongst other elementals as they lacked affinity to specific element so they can work with and for all others regardless of their hatered (water x fire, air x earth, positive x negative). Later on with their task on Toril done most of the elemental lords returned to Planes or slumbered in their domain and Janni were left to their devices. Some returned to Planes with their masters but most make Toril their home and they became native. As they lost some of their powers and without their masters for the first time most of them wandered this new land without aim and slowly learned about their new needs like hunger, sleep and procreation and thus living in tribal societies. They were crafty and found ways to use tools and magic to their advantage and also found their unique ability to absorb foreign elements into their being and thus thrive in almost any place on Toril (creating proto-ethincs and various crosbreeds). At this time other mighty races came to Toril (Sarrukh, Batrachi) and ensalved those humans they found to forge their new empires.
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  18:09:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, I thought you had tied a janni creation myth and twisted it into a human origin story.

I personally am happy for all the races to have evolved independently at different times in the different crystal spheres.
It's a bit like hitchikers guide to the galaxy but with a universe. The universe was created and it had a plan and that plan involved humans and dragons and dwarves and elves and orcs and all manner of other creatures as it worked towards it's final goal.
Then something infected the universe and it fractured into two smaller multiverses that were similar and tried to recreate the original plan in it's own way so humans and dragons and dwarves and elves evolved all over again in both multiverses.
Unfortunately they got infected and fractured again and again and again. Who knows how many times it has happened.

Each crystal sphere tries to recreate the original plan in their own way. Sometimes they are missing a few races (no copy is perfect), sometimes similar events happen or don't (no descent of dark elves in krynn).
So toril evolved humans but humans from other crystal spheres (each sphere is it's own copy of the universe) have also migrated to toril. Dwarves and elves migrated before they had a chance to evolve.
The plan doesn't care if a race evolved naturally or from a magical accident or is created by breeding or magical experimentation or that races migrate from elsewhere, as long as they are present.

That's how I deal with the hodgepodge of identical races being on lots of other planets with their own creation myths and with similar catastrophes be falling similar races on separate worlds (drow).

Turami and talfir are natives, almost all other human ethnicities are not

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  18:56:01  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Well, I didn't claim you meant Talfir came from Turami, or vice-verse, just that the separation had to occur in very ancient times, which why I described the original population as "Turami-Talfir", compare to the terms Indo-Iranians, or Indo-Europeans etc.

And I just think Eldath, might be just a Turami-Talfir deity, seeing her asociation with arguable cultural enclaves of both populations (ie the Moonshade Isles for Talfir (retained a Talfitic language), and the Eyes of Silvanus). With possibly Turami introducing Eldath to the Jhaamdath pantheon.

Again, I also suggested Eldath is quite probable a Fey Deity (probably being originally an Archfey or Primal Spirit), so it's possible both populations got the worship of Eldath from local Fey or Elves...
In my own 'racial migrations' theories I have it where the Talfir are a western offshoot on an even earlier group - the Cortae - which began in the middle Taan region. This group would have been driven-out and split by other migrating groups (like the Gur and proto-Tuigan), with some migrating west and becoming the Illu-Cortae (and very much like Celts), and then there was an eastern group - the Issa-Cortae (and that group is canon in K-T).

From the Illu-Cortae the Talfir sprang (along with a more southern branch that would eventually evolve into the Tethens). The Talfir were still mostly barbarians (Angardt), with one particular sub-group eventually becoming 'settled' (this group became part of Thaeravel, and later Ebenfar). Since I no longer think the Illuskans are related to this group at all, I will probably change the name when I get back to it. Screw it, I'll just change it right now - they were the Talfa-Cortae. The Illuskans are descended from immigrants from across the northern Trackless Sea, and thus, not even native Faerûnians.

The Turami were the original ethnic group for all of southern Faerûn - EVERYTHING below the Sea of Fallen Stars, from the Sword coast all the way to the the borders of old Imaskar were their 'stomping ground'. As various groups migrated into their territories, they were mostly pushed both south and west, until most of the surviving ethnic stock being located in the Chultan arm (The Tashalan Peoples). Further west these peoples would have wound-up mixing with the invasive Tabaxi (so that the folk of Sammarach are probably 50/50). To the north, one particular group were 'cut-off' from their southern brethren and were pushed in what is today Turmish, and they seem to have remained fairly 'racially pristine'.

In the Shaar, the Turami have mixed with many different bloodlines, including Imaskari, Mulan, Illuskan & Rus, even maybe even Netherese (which is a Gur derivative), and probably some unknowns - small groups kidnapped by the Imaskari from multiple worlds. Thus, today's 'Sharrans' are really a mixed bag of other ethnicities (although there may have been an original Sharran people along the southern coast, they were mostly folded into the Turami over time). Up until a few centuries ago, you may have been able to find fairly 'pure' ancient Sharran bloodlines within Dambrath, but that is no longer the case. I may blend this with the Durpari people at some point - not sure. I had the Durpari as an offshoot of Zakharan, but I no longer think thats optimal (they seem more Vedic). Thus, the Durpari may be a blend of ancient Sharran and Mar (the Vedic peoples who migrated out of Malatra into the Utter East).

LOL - our Indians became Indians!
Or is it the Indians (Mar/Vedic) fused with the Indians (Sharrans/Native Americans) and created new Indians? (the Durpari) That's an odd blend of cultures that had ZERO to do with each other RW. I like it FOR that reason - it isn't like anything else I've heard of.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2018 18:49:00
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  19:22:20  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well if you look at where the talfir are first mentioned (ebenfar) it's located right next to the border of isstosseffifil and given that land turned from jungle to barren wasteland overnight it is possible the talfir occupied isstosseffifil with the sarrukh and fled when the empire died (to the heartlands).

The sarrukh migration route is that they began in okoth and moved to the lake of steam before splitting and one group settling merrshaulk while the other settled isstosseffifil. If they had human slaves they would have taken them with them. Thus talfir, turami, and tashalan are evolved from the same racial stock (which has now vanished).
I know that doesn't marry up with your stuff but it's an easy way to explain Whelan being related to a language in the vilhon reach on a tiny island.

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sleyvas
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USA
7132 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  19:57:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With the whole golden skinned thing, for the Mar people, I just can't help but wonder if their name isn't a corruption of sorts of Aasimar.... or even some OTHER term similar to aasimar to indicate a type of people mating with outer planar entities. Maybe this started in Langdarma, where they lived amongst devas, drank from blessed waterways, etc.... However some left, and in interacting with the regular world, perhaps they became corrupt (and possibly jaded/hardened more than usual because they weren't allowed to return to "Paradise"). The Mar act nothing like someone from a celestial bloodline.... but maybe that's because the whole "blood of the heavens" has been bred out of them. But, I really like the idea of the god-kings taking a third group and heading down to Zakhara after the Imaskari conflict, and. In fact, it could be something where for centuries Mulan slaves escaped Imaskar and headed south to find Langdarma where they were protected if they accepted peace. At the same time, maybe some of these escaped slaves ended up worshipping dark powers and bred with them because they couldn't get accepted or find Langdarma. I know Ysdar is some kind of devil known there, and according to faces of deception they were capturing beautiful slaves to sell in the outer planes.

Of course, I say all that, and I would also be perfectly acceptable for them to just be golden skinned because they're tanned.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  20:29:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Well if you look at where the talfir are first mentioned (ebenfar) it's located right next to the border of isstosseffifil and given that land turned from jungle to barren wasteland overnight it is possible the talfir occupied isstosseffifil with the sarrukh and fled when the empire died (to the heartlands).

The sarrukh migration route is that they began in okoth and moved to the lake of steam before splitting and one group settling merrshaulk while the other settled isstosseffifil. If they had human slaves they would have taken them with them. Thus talfir, turami, and tashalan are evolved from the same racial stock (which has now vanished).
I know that doesn't marry up with your stuff but it's an easy way to explain Whelan being related to a language in the vilhon reach on a tiny island.
Except we are then completely ignoring the elven Empires that were EVERYWHERE between the fall of the Sarrukh and the rise of humanity.

Ebenfar's capital is in the High Moor - right in the middle of what would have been Miyeritar. Those other 'snakey' dudes (I have to look up the name*) were present there (and I believe still are), but not the Sarrukh. The Yuan-ti have a large presence in the Serpent Hills right next door, though.


*Ophidians

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2018 22:46:50
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  21:38:10  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't see that it contradicts anything.

I believe the quote about elves finding humans beneath the boughs of the forest was referencing keltormir at the time but even so it makes sense for the humans to have spread once the sarrukh perished.
So the question is why aren't the talfir humans dominant everywhere, because something killed them off.
The crown wars likely annihilated much human populations. I don't see the vyshaan being very human friendly and the illythiiri made it all the way to keltormir and they used human slaves in their armies (illehhune is the descendants of human slaves from the illythiiri of house hhune).
So the talfir spread from anauroch into the western heartlands over 10000 years, hiding in the forests from the giants and dragons that would arrive. It's a harsh world back then and they were primitive so they never reached great numbers, plus talfir are quite passive and docile compared to non native humans. Then the elves slaughter each other and humans and burn the forests.
Then other non native humans arrive and they out compete the talfir and or mingle with them leaving only one group of relative lifeblood talfir near the serpent hills I think.

As for the yuanti, they were made by the sarrukh of merrshaulk (using humans as breeding stock) and they travelled to a sarrukh ruin through portals to establish najara I think (it's a long time since I read that) so the original ruins of Ankara were sarrukh anyway.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Mar 2018 :  23:17:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There were a bunch of humans that were part of the Dragon Empires as well - they were in that anthology, Realms of the Elves, IIRC. That came post-Sarrukh but pre-Elf, and I would hazard to guess the Talfir may have gotten their 'leg up' on other humans magically during that time period. Humans weren't known to use magic before then, so one of my assumptions is that that is an Elven Bloodline trait, that has become so diluted over 25K years that the trait can be found in most humans today. The dragons may have been 'breeding' for it.

I just went looking for the story, to jog my memory - most humans were practically 'cavemen' at that time (-25,000 DR), but the ones that were part of the Dragon Empires seemed to be just as 'advanced' and magically capable as the Elves (and the story even states that the elves are surprised by this - they had considered the humans little more than animals up to that point). So I think it may be a very ancient 'fey heritage' thing that's just gotten so watered down now nearly anyone can do a little magic. Except for dwarves, because they have that 'Breed True' thing going on (see other thread). Well, no longer 'except for dwarves' because of the Thunder Blessing.

I think back then all magic was sorcery-based - it was something 'pulled from within', and not a matter of study and memorization. I think 'Wizardly' magic came to us through the Nether Scrolls, and that 'style' slowly replaced the more ancient 'High magic' of the Fey. So definitely a bloodline thing, through the elves, and because of that 'mixing' the dragons insisted upon (Dragons themselves practice Sorcery - scant few can do Wizardry, because of the components involved).

Then, millennia later, the Talfir have those bloodlines (still evident in the Incipient Clans from Secrets of the Magister - note those are all from the same region - the old 'Talfir Lands'). Its more of a 'natural talent' kind of thing. Then, in my theories about Thaeravel being mostly Talfir people is correct, we can see how that would be annoying to the Netherese to the north, since they had to put so much more effort into learning their magic.

I think a similar thing happened to the Imaskari, BTW. I think that a small portion of the Cortae remained within the Taan Lands, protected by local Elven tribes (fey), who then mixed with them, creating the 'Spirit Folk' that were the whole basis for the Guge lore in The Horde boxed set (note that the Imaskari burial grounds - Zanda Tholing - were within the boundaries of Guge, before it fell). Spirit Folk ruled over Guge (canon) and spirit folk are half-fey (also canon), and fey and elves are the same thing now, THUS, spirit folk are just an ancient bloodline type of half-elf. If the Imaskari themselves did not have some fey blood (and everything points to them having some), then they must have assigned some sort of special significance to persons who did (considering that they buried their KINGS in Guge... which was ruled by Spirit folk). In other words, Spirit Folk in Imaskar may have comprised some sort of 'Holy Caste' - like a hereditary priesthood (and since the Imaskari were obviously NOT big on religion, it stands to reason their culture would have needed some sort of substitute, in regards to things that normally fall under the purview of religion, like burials).

But I digress...

The idea is that some humans mixed with some Fey/Elves, a LONG time ago, and now we have these bloodlines, some stronger than others. I would assume the Talfir are one such, and it runs very strong in them (which unfortunately also makes it easy for them to become corrupted as well, by fiends and beings like Shar).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Mar 2018 23:19:34
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Baltas
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  02:29:22  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
- dazzlerdal

I can understand not deity centric models for origins of ethinicities, but I think there is evidence Eldath would be a Turami-Talfir deity - I mean, there is evidence of her cult of the Moonshae Isles, that wasn't overtaken by the worship of the Earthmother.

Returning to Eyes of Silvanus, Eldath seems paticulary protective over Ilighon, as detailed in "The Vilhon Reach":

quote:
Eldath's Ring
Eldath, Goddess of the Singing Waters, serves as the
protector of Ilighôn, shielding it from direct naval attack.
In addition, the faith-magic zone extends two
miles from the ring on all sides.


Also, with Talfir being present in Anauroch, I think the Angardt (and possibly Rengarth) and Thaeravel like Markustay mentioned, could be at least partially Talfiric in origin.

It's also notable that the pantheon of the Rengarth (who became Goliaths), and by extension, probably Angardt, who split from them due their disposition towards Arcane magic (influenced de to micxing with Talfiric peoples?), as detailed in the "Goliaths of Faerun by de Bie and Costa" thread by Erik Scott de Bie and Tom Costa (Which was at least partially canonized by Brian R. James and Matt James "Monument of the Ancients" in Dungeon #170):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10647

quote:

History: Deep in what is now the Plain of Standing Stones in Anauroch, there is a mountain range that was known as the Columns of the Sky during the Golden Age of the Netherese. These were some of the tallest mountain peaks of Netheril, stretching thousands of feet into the sky and creating a landmark that could be seen for hundreds of miles in every direction. To the Rengarth barbarians of that age, the slender peaks were the sacred home of the gods. From these peaks, the gods looked out upon their people, and the Rengarth punished those they found near the peaks, especially if they were found with animal skins or gems taken from “the hearts of their gods.”

In the days of Netheril’s fall, the climate became increasingly harsh and brought the Rengarth great suffering. Entire clans died along with the land itself. Gone were the days where their gods watched over them and shaped the world to their image. (In actuality, the wicked magic of the phaerimm was draining the land of life, turning it rapidly into a desert). Men young and old cursed the unforgiving heights of the sacred mountains, calling upon the gods to show themselves—to salvage the world they had abandoned. The Rengarth began to die out as the old religion crumbled, but a new sect of druids believed the gods and—more importantly—the land was testing them, seeing if their spirits would break with increasing chill and decreasing game. These new Rengarth iconoclasts wished to climb the sacred mountains and throw down the old superstitions of the past, and for this purpose they trained and trained to perfect themselves physically for the arduous task of scaling what was to them the sacred and most powerful peaks in the world.

Over many generations, an intrepid band of superior physical specimens emerged who could challenge the Columns of the Sky. The druids of the tribe told them to scour the peaks and remove every last belief or doubt about the gods and their mountains. This they set out to do, climbing peak after peak and struggling with mighty creatures who were not gods but flesh and blood, tooth and wing. Finally, they came to the last and greatest peak, and when they had scaled it they found what not even the wisest of them had expected—a sight which struck them dumb and thoughtless with awe.

What they saw is a matter of speculation and myth. Some claim they encountered all the gods assembled in one place, locked in a trance that must have lasted centuries. Some claim it was a ram-headed god named Kavaki and his allies, reshaping the world in their own image. Some say they found no gods but only the power of gods, which reshaped their bodies and their world entire. What is known for certain is that they had grown taller and stronger, their flesh become as stone and infused with gems that gleamed with divine power. They had become the first goliaths.


quote:
Religion: Kavaki is an aspect of Lathander that focuses on the youth, vitality, self-perfection, and above all athletics portions of the Morninglord’s portfolio, and whose clerics favor the Protection and Strength domains. The other gods of the goliaths were Lathander’s allies at the time of the Dawn Cataclysm, but have since changed. Kuliak the Dead Goddess was originally an aspect of Eldath (who would not supply Lathander and his allies with fresh water as they prepared for battle on principle), but has since been supplanted by first Jergal (who was nothing more than an interloper obeying the edicts of Myrkul) and now Kelemvor (who has taken a true interest in the goliaths and seeks to redeem Kuliak’s faith, especially among goliath exiles who favor the Fate and Travel domains). Manethek the Wise Hunter is an aspect of Gwaeron Windstrom (sent by Mielikki to assist Lathander and whose clerics favor the Animal and Knowledge domains). Naki-Uthal, the Brave Climber is an aspect of Shaundakul (whose clergy favor the Air and Travel domains), who was a close ally of the Morninglord prior to the Dawn Cataclysm, but was shown an image of Lathander’s folly by Selune and rejected the failed plans that led to the demise of most of his faithful in Myth Drannor. Theleya the Fertile One is an aspect of Chauntea (whose clergy favor the Plant and Renewal domains). Finally, Vanua the Harbringer of Woe was a masculine aspect of Tyche whose name was seized by Talos when she fell—his clergy favor the Destruction and Fire domains. Goliath exiles often refer to these deities by their “human names,” so as not to confuse the listener, but Gol-kaa holds to the traditional names.


It's notable Eldath is again also present in the Goliath/Rengarth pantheon, which seems somewhat separate from the Netherese pantheon (ie the presence of Lathander with no of Amaunator, although Lathander's solar aspects are lessened here, as well as Eldath being there percieved as at least somewhat goddess of death and dead instead of Jergal - who was explicedly stated to take over Kuliak's alias and role very late, when he allready was Myrkul's subordinate. While it's possible Eldath subsumed and/or absorbed Kuliak, the lore implies Kuliak was originally Eldath...)

-sleyvas

It's possible, seeing the language of Mar people, is "Devic", compare to Devas (both the Aasimon, and 4E version). Although aside from the possiblity you gavem it's also possible that the Celestial bloodline of the Mar people, is just so diluted, it's only affects them in very small ways, ie their golden skin.

- Markustay

Dunno if Durpar, and Durpari are just the equivalent of Indian people - they have traits of various Near Eastern cultures.

Most notably, Durpari have many, MANY odd Sumerian/Mesopotamian elements - for example, when Desert of Desolation was moved to the Realms, the Durpari specifically monotheistically worshipped Anu. Of the Mesopotamian pantheon. This quickly evolved/was retconned into the concept of Adama.

Adama though, curiously, also comes from a Sumerian word - meaning either the soil/earth (compare to Akkadian Adamatu - "Dark Red Soil"), Adama can also mean/describe the first group of humans, created by Enki.

(And yes, the name Adam, and the biblical character of the same, as well in part his story, ultimately derive from that...)

Although "Adamma", was a name of Canaanite goddess of Earth, whose name was also identified as another of Cybele's names in Phrygian insription.

Satama, the man who founded the Adama religion, is also seemingly named after the title Satam/Satmmu (SA.TAM), meaning "Official" (of the Temple).

Another connection is the alias of Gond among Durpari - Zionil, resembling in structure names of Sumerian deities, particulary Enlil.

The Grand History of the Realms states Imaskar was a civilisation founded by Durpari, and curiously, the Durpari warlord whose actions kickstarted largelly the start of Imaskar, Nemrut, is named after the Biblical figure of Nimrod - a spelling of his name essentially - who was a king in Mespotomania, of disputed historical identity.

To be fair, some think Sumerians might have originated from India, or north of India, before moving to Mesopotamia - this is notable in the name of Mount Meru, the holy cosmic mountain in Hindiusm, also known as Mount Sumeru in Sankrit, which was stated lie north of India, possibly in Tibet (were some also think Sumerians might had been, at least for some time).

[EDIT]

And to add about the Rengarth gods - while one could argue the Rengarth accepted new gods wit their transormation into the Goliaths, the implication is that Kavaki's/Lathander's pantheon, was their pantheon before the transformation, as further implied in the bit in "Monument of the Ancients" that canonized it:

quote:
Excerpt from Heart of the Mountain,
a controversial work on the origins
of goliaths in the Realms.
Like all goliath tribes, the Akoro trace
their ancestry back to the Golden Age of
Netheril. To the Rengarth barbarians of that age, the sacred
mountain range known as the Columns of the Sky were
home to gods. As the fortunes of the Rengarth declined with
the increasing desertification of their lands, the Rengarth
began to doubt their gods.
Demanding answers, a select group was chosen to enter
the sacred mountains and seek the domain of the gods.
Climbing peak after peak, the seekers tackled unforgiving
elements and ferocious beasts with equal skill and
determination. Finally, when they had scaled the last and
greatest peak, they beheld a sight which struck them dumb
and thoughtless with awe.
What they saw is a matter of speculation and myth,
but what is certain is that the seekers had grown taller and
stronger, their flesh hard as stone, their spirits infused with
primal power.



[EDIT2]

What I meant with the different deities of the Rangarth, compred to Netherese, is that it could be Talfiric influence, either due to contact, or partial descent. Although there are alternate explanations for, but I thought it is woth menntioning, especially seeing the presence of both Lathander, and Amaunator in more, or less the same area...

The Ancient Netheril map, also places "Angardt Ancestral lands" quite close to were the Talfiric people dwelled, even very close to River Chiontar, being in the same place as the "Battle of the Bones"is today, as Markustay noted in another thread.

Edited by - Baltas on 25 Mar 2018 05:13:58
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  09:10:03  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When it comes to the deities the realms has become a desert of creativity. Everyone wants to hear about the gods so much that whenever there is a people worshipping a sub God then it automatically become lathander or amaunator, same for eldath and whatever the he'll he is God of.

I'm pretty sure the rengarth are ulou and I'm making them different in that they worship their ancestors, not gods, in fact they think gods are magic and therefore bad. But the low netherese are a mix of rengarth, talfir, and netherese and they have the gods of the netherese and the misinterpretation of talfir gods (who worship different aspects of nature but not as gods just as nature).


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Baltas
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  11:38:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think I must heartily disagree with you here dazzlerdal.

As I sugested before, the Rengarth Gods were possibly subsumed by the known now "Faerunian Pantheon" gods, I just noted I think the text implies they were them, or at least some of them. Or that some gods, originated among the "Rengarth pantheon".

I also don't Eldath is overused - in fact, she is one of underused deities, to the point she was completelly absent from 4E, aside from one mention in Dragon magazine's Sarifal article.

In general, many of the more casual fans, I think find Eldath as "boring", due to her position as a goddess of peace, as did aparently Hasbro/WOTC executives.

Shaundakul wasn't mentioned at all during the 4E era, and is in general not that often mentioned.

And in the reall world, there are gods present all over the world. JI mean, just take the proto-Indo-European Dyeus Pater
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyeus

Who is worshipped in his forms, in numerous pantheons, as the Greek/Hellenic Zeus; Dis Pater and Jupiter (Jovis Pater); the Norse/Germanic Tyr/Ziu/Tiwaz; the Baltic Dievas etc.

Another very similar example, is possibly the the Sumerian Anu (his name also read and written as just Dingir - Sumerian for "God", aside from An(u) - Sumerian for Sky), Turkic and Mongolian Tengri, and Chinese Tian (Shang Di?) (all being both the personification Sky, and cosmic Sky Gods,and sharing the name with the same root):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dingir
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tian

(Also connected to the possible presence of Sumerians in Central Asia before recorded history I mentioned before.The Altaic Tengri, even shares the dual meaning of Anu/Dingir, meaning possibly both Sky and God, and being used as both the name of the supreme god, as well the generic name of a god)

The article, also adds an interesting implications when combined with the information on the Chessan interpretaton of Lathander that he possibly wasn't originally a "sun god", and snatched that portfolio from Amuanator, and was more a god of virility, vitality and athletics. As again, in Chessenta, Lathander was at least till very recently (before the Spellplague), worshipped in that form. From "Old Empires":
quote:
Lathander
Morning Lord, God of Youth, Vitality,
Self-perfection, Athletics
Status: NG, Greater Power, Elysium
Symbol: A wooden disk of rosy pink
hue, or a statue of two wrestlers
Lathander is worshiped in Chessenta,
though not as the commander of creativity
(that sphere belongs to Melith) but
as the perfect athlete.
Sacrifices to Lathander begin all athletic
competitions, and athletes pray to
him to ensure that they perform at
their best. Lathander is portrayed in
statuary as a runner or a wrestler, competing
sometimes
comes to test great athletes; he
never loses, but if his opponent demonstrates
great ability, he grants a boon.
Lathander's priesthood is small, but
many pray at his shrines.


This quite overlaps with the Rengarth interpretation of Lathander as Kavaki, possibly sugesting he originated in the Rengarth pantheon as Kavaki, or that Lathander's cult penetrayed into the Chessentan and Rangarth pantheon early on (hence the "archaic" forms of Lathander present there), possibly from the Talfir pantheon. Again, are suggested to have contact with Talfir, as there IS a Chessan (specifically Akalaic) language Talfir used - Telfir, as stated in Tom Costa's "Speaking in Tongues" article from the Dragon Magazine.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Telfir

(Tom Costa confirmed Telfir, is a language spoken by the Talfiric peoples).

This is something Tom Costa might have intended, seeing he wrote both (in part) the Candlekeep article on Goliaths, and of curse the "Speaking in Tongues" article.

(In turn, Eldath could also come into the Rengarth pantheon from the Talfiric pantheon, and Shaundakul from the Illuskans, as he is connected to the primal Illuskan beliefs, at least of the Rus tribe of them. Both could also be incorporrated throught contact alone).

This also neatly fits with your Turami-Talfir-Tashalan theory - especially that the Tashalan language (Akûrian) is also described as a member of the Akalaic languages.

Those may be just "misclassications" due to the Turami language influencig heavily the Chessan, or at least the Akalaic languages subgroup of them, creating the ilusion Tashalan and Talfir/Telfir, are part of the Akalaic subgroup of the Chessan languages.

And about Rengarth rejecting not worshipping gods, but ancestors, due to fear/dislike of magic - it's an interesting concept, but a pretty a high/advanced concept, something I think would have to develope latter. And by the same logic, the Rengarth could cease all worship, and even reverce of souls - worship in D&D connected to magic in some capacity, as are even arguably souls and afterlife.

(It also contradicts the several descriptions of Rengarth worshipping gods, and also creates a paradox, with the fact an ancestor that would be worshipped enought, would become a god, if rather a Demi-Power, or Near-Power...This could be also caused by several ancesor-cults beig conflated, the combined cult giving rise to a Power...)

With Talfir, I get you mean the Low Netherese missinterpreted Talfiric worship of forces of nature, as deities, and while an interesting concept, it's a bit at odds with canon.

One could go with it, justifying how the Talfir converted into worship of the Earthmother fairly easily, her being similar to what the Talfir worshipped before (Primal Spirits and Archfey - personifications of the forces of Nature), with Eldath being worshipped among Talfir, making then even more sense (as she is sttongly implied to have been originally a Primal Spirits or Archfey), although it becomes a bit complicated with Tempus, but "conflict" can be seen as a force of nature...

Lathander can be also considered a personification/representation of vitality and virility, as well possibly physical strenght, if one subsribes to the possibility I gave Lathander wasn't originally a sun god...

Edited by - Baltas on 25 Mar 2018 13:17:07
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  13:56:04  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well those articles are dated around -357 Dr which allows at least 3000 years for them to have acquired new religions from their netherese neighbours. I prefer topaint the people and their religions as dynamic rather than static.
Rengarth worshipped ancestor spirits like almost all the other barbarian ulou people's. Over time they acquired some deific worship from netheril, and when the akoro became goliath who knows what happened to their traditions (they may have abandoned them completely with their new outlook on life).

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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  19:28:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, I am getting lost here - what the hell do the Rengarth have to do with Goliaths?! (and MAN, do I HATE those freakin' things!!!)

Also, I think if we are going to stick Eldath really far back in the FR timeline and assign her to the Turami (or proto-Turami), then someone like maybe Osun (or Oshun) from Nigerian mythology might work for us there (as a template, of sorts).

Also, one thing I forgot to address in my above racial breakdown - the theoretical 'Cortae' peoples would be a stoneage group, and very much like the RW 'Clovis People'. Some of their traditions would have evolved into druidism in the west - normal ('good') druidism among the Tethens, and perhaps something a little darker ('bending nature to your will') among the Talfir.

So perhaps it would be more accurate to say the split-off of Tethens were more like Celts (which makes sense in regards to the Moonshaes), but the Talfir became something more... fantastical (no RW equivalent). Actually, the closest thing I can come to in imagining my version of the Talfir ('shadowy', but with good intentions) would be the Kali cults, although that is FAR from an accurate correlation (Kali was an 'Earthmother' goddess as well, but she was also associated with destruction, through Shiva).
________________________________________________________________________________________________

And I am all for numerous, 'local gods' all over the place. I have no problem with that.

But in the end, they're all just aspects of a handful of archtypes.

And I like that aspect of Lathander - Kavaki. I hadn't been aware of it. Now I am seeing Lathander as an aspect of Kord (GH), or rather, they are both aspects of the same archtype. FR mythos mirrors RW Greek and Roman mythology in that they have an older, 'more stern' sun god, and then a younger, more vital sun god, who is about renewal (and this also relates to Apollo worship being folded into Christianity via Jesus - 'The Sun/The Son'). And in FR, we have draconic myths about there having been 'two suns' - an older one that was destroyed (dethroned?), and a newer (younger?) one that took its place.


How do the Bedine feel about magic? I just had a stray thought - since Mystra was an outgrowth of that conflict (the one that created the second sun), one can almost think of Mystra as a 'sister' to Lathander in that light (pun intended). And Mystra has 'Silver Fire', as opposed to the 'Golden fire' of the Sun. Could the Bedine actually be thinking of Mystra when they talk about A'tar? That they've somehow gotten the two deities (Aumanator) conflated?

Unfortunately, that means there would be something I have to do to that I have somehow managed to avoid up until now in my Overcosmology musings: Combining deities within the same RW pantheon. Artemis and Hecate would have to become aspects of one goddess. Maybe... then again, I think of Hecate as the Greek Selûne, so maybe I would only have to combine Hecate with Leto, which is less obtrusive (and incidentally, the Titan {Empyreal} Leto is the daughter of Coeus and Phoebe, who are related to the sun & Moon... so it all comes full-circle). Since Hecate's parentage is unknown, and she is considered 'cthonic' (primal), pushing her all the way back to the Time before Time seems appropriate. (Oh crap, I just found that in one set of works she has the SAME parents as Leto! Thus, scholars have deduced she might be Leto's sister. But what if is as simple as that they are THE SAME BEING?) And Hecate is associated with Dogs (canines) as well as the moon and magic - a very early reference to lycanthropy/werewolves?

Hmmmmm... Hecate has a 'triple aspect' as well... Selûne, Shar, and Mystra?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2018 19:31:59
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  19:57:52  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I believe the mention of the goliaths is due to a single tribe of Rengarth travelling to the Columns of the Sky Mountains at or shortly after the Fall of Netheril in an attempt to stop it. They were changed by their journey into goliaths and headed east into the Ride/Tortured Lands where they became the Akoro. All this is mentioned in the Monument of the Ancients article.

I definitely wont be tying Eldath into any Rengarth pantheon because I'm not giving the Rengarth a pantheon. I have them as ancestor worshippers like the barbarians in the Vast (the Glacier of the White Worm) or the Uthgardt (although they now worship Uthgar it is a corruption of ancestor worship mixed with a deity as you would expect from a mix of Rengarth and Netherese and other people gone native which causes a mix in traditions including religious traditions.

And the dragon breeding programs you mention are how I'm explaining random human groups arriving in places they shouldn't. The Netherese arrival is one possibility. Jhaamdath is another likely candidate. I'm pretty sure the George has pegged the Arthraen to this origin.

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Markustay
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  21:52:32  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am just going to pretend you didn't tell me that. Goliaths are bad enough as-is (and completely redundant with a dozen other races that already existed before they showed their faces), but that lore... JUST NO. Not gonna happen. Just some story a craze individual was telling in a tavern after having overdosed on Shadowshrooms.

Eldath, BTW, is known for her own, rather widely-spread, portal network. There are several in Turmish alone, but they do appear elsewhere in the Realms. That indicates to me she is probably a much more ancient, primal power that predates The Realms themselves.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 25 Mar 2018 :  22:22:07  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've got no problem with goliaths or any other extra race they want to add in. As long as it's got a good story or the potential for me to spin a good story then I'm happy. But I don't use the d&d rules so a goliath is just a human with a few extra options added for stone like skin and super strength.

Just because eldath primary place of power has portals now does not mean a widespread worship in the past, just that they have found and use an ancient portal network.

I vaguely recall the capital of rystall wood being recinsecrated to eldath before it's fall and If that is the earliest mention then I'd place that as the birth of the religion making it either a netherese religion derivative or depending on the time frame an import from the moonsea or Falklands which is potential a jhaamic import or s9mething else.

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Baltas
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Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  02:44:36  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-dazzlerdal
Actually, Eldath's first mention (not counting possibly the Rengarth/Goliath cult which would be -357 DR and maybe before) is a bit older - she is first mentioned in -167 DR (The Year of Sudden Kinship), in Myth Nantar, a distinctly non-human settlement at that point, asociated with Seas Elves and Merfolk.
(from "Sea of Fallen Stars")
quote:
Lives above Serôs tie themselves to the sun and moon and the changing seasons. Here in Eldath's embrace,
neither stars nor seasons are as intrusive, though they are no less present. Each creature and civilization
views time differently, though the entire lifeblood of the sea shifts in unified answer to the subtle movement of
time. Finding a way to unify their measurement of time so all races (including those sages in Faerûn with an
interest) shall be my gift to those who honor the Loremaster and other powers in the Inner Sea.
-Arkallus Vorduhl, lorekeeper of Oghma and early native of Myth Nantar, the Year of Sudden Kinship


(And Eldath is a major deity in Myth Nantar, up till 1370s)

Many other areas were that were Eldath's old centres of worship had often Elven and Fey presence - Myth Ondath and Rystal Wood were inhabitted (even originally) by Sylvan Elves and Fey, Myth Drannor was originally elven city, and latter still partially had an elven population, and recently again a (largelly or entirelly) elven population.

The Myrloch Lake shrines at Moonshae Isles preserved by nereids.

Orcs raised by Eldathyns, and worshipping Eldath - Ondonti - became Fey.

Ed, in his first description of Eldath (in "Down-to-earth divinity"), noted specifically Nymphs in Faerun, worship Eldath:

quote:
nymphs worship
Eldath (they believe she is the source
of the power to kill those who look upon
their naked forms).


I think it's also possible Eldath was originally a Fey power, adopted by elves and human (humans adpoting Eldath from elves, or directly from Fey), seeing how fairly consistently Eldath is tied with Fey and Elves, or places they live...(and seeing how elves originally worshipped Fey Deities before the Seldarine, and some, especilly Wood and Silvan Elves, still do)

Edited by - Baltas on 26 Mar 2018 03:26:23
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