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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2015 :  10:53:15  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its entirely possible, but having a deity of agriculture seems to be quite common for many cultures in reality and in fiction. These separate cultures would have separate pantheons and so likely separate deities.

Not that we will ever get a definitive answer.

I like lots of mini gods that join into one being that is a jumbled amalgam of them all (Tempus is one such jumble, so is Tyr - if you have read Ed's answer about Tyr's origin in his thread a few years back and one was a beholder beast cult). For those that like an all pervading deity that crosses cultural and pantheonic boundaries then Chauntea being Jannath and the Earthmother all rolled into one is no less valid - i just find it too simplistic for my personal tastes. I'm a layer man - I like onions.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2015 :  11:48:21  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that Iltyr, might have been a benevolent Beholder god, with which Tyr merged with.
My own theory about Tyr, is that he was a lesser giantish deity/primordial originaly, who came or appeared with Annam. Tyr is described as Giant Hymir's son in one myth. He would later merge with, and absorb a number of gods and other entities, including I think Arawn, from which came his alias, Arrtyr Judge Of All(Judge Of All, seems like a title for a god of Dead).

[EDIT]

Also, Chauntea was actualy said to embody the whole Realm-space, not only Toril. Although this is just a myth. Another possibility, is that Chauntea, merged her spirit with a mortal druid of her, when she ascended from being a primordial, into godhood.

Edited by - Baltas on 12 Mar 2015 19:32:22
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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2015 :  20:11:53  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I never step beyond the bounds of Toril (with the possible exception of Abeir on occasion), if only to preserve my own sanity since real world mythology is a mess of interpretations and translations and on occasion just blatantly made up stuff.

I figure you can spin just about any chain of events you want to for the gods and it will work as long as you are consistent and stick to your own set of rules.

As for Chauntea merging with a mortal, the big question would be why, once you have a credible reason for it then all that matters is your ability to spin a convincing tale. Mystryl did it to save herself (divine reincarnation of a kind).

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2015 :  20:36:12  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I understand your point about limiting to Toril, multiverse stuff can be consuming AND confusing.

About Chauntea, as I said, I think she would merge with a mortal, to make to not have Toril dissapear into the Outer Planes, when she ascended into a deity. She by moving her spirit into the mortal, she used the mortal's body as the first avatar, and divine vessel, that moved into the outer planes, and leave the planet intact.

Also, your spin on Toril, and the Primordial mothers(Earthmother, Othea, Bhalla...), and theoir relationship, as well as the relationship of the Earthmother, and her children remind me of the realationship of the Planet, and the WEAPONs from Final Fantasy VII. Although I think that's rather a coicidence.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 12 Mar 2015 :  20:51:53  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I never owned a playstation, i'm a pc only guy so weapons and final fantasy mean very little to me (I did play FF8 on my friends PS2 though and that was fun with the GFs)

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 13 Mar 2015 :  09:17:46  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course, if Chauntea moved her spirit from Toril, into a mortal, nothing says it had to be a human. I think it could be any member of the creator races. My pick, would be on LeShay, because of the white hair, and that LeShay, aside from humans, seem the most likely to be druids, and preserve nature out of the creator races(Well, maybe also aearee, then the white hair, was originaly white feathers, but I'm not sure if one of them would like to be merged forever with a entity connected to earth).

[EDIT]

And in Netheril, Jannath was said to be connected to fey...

Edited by - Baltas on 13 Mar 2015 09:26:34
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2015 :  15:21:24  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nearly finished with my Moonshae rewrite for Issue 9. Out of interest does anyone want me to put sources in the final pdf (probably as comments linked to sentences) so that people can see where i got the various bits of information from.

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2015 :  10:40:02  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Issue 9 of Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions is now available.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

The contents are fairly straightforward, there is a single article for each region of the Moonshae Isles covered as this issue is intended to be an alternative sourcebook for the region. The information in Issue 8 should completely compatible with Issue 9, and its intended use was to supplement and expand the regional information.

As always if anyone wants to get involved with articles of their own, or proof reading, or artwork, or any other skills they have then I would be glad of the help.

If anyone has any feedback that would also be greatly appreciated, and finally if anyone wants to contact me about any of the above then PM me with your email address and we can talk

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Edited by - dazzlerdal on 25 Jun 2015 19:36:19
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2015 :  19:36:37  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For some reason the link wasn't working, but it is now.

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Caladan Brood
Senior Scribe

Norway
410 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2015 :  21:00:31  Show Profile  Visit Caladan Brood's Homepage Send Caladan Brood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Speaking of petty gods, here's a free PDF I heartily recommend:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/s8pu4s9kliv2q42/Original%20Petty%20Gods%20-%20OPG.pdf
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 28 Jun 2015 :  09:22:01  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I have the pdf and note a complete absence of fr gods whom over the recent years I have come to regard as the most petty and childish of all beings. Some nice ideas in it though.

So its been a few days and im just wondering if anyone has read issue 9 yet. Its the biggest project ive done and want to continue the style for Netheril if it works.

So what did anyone think. Are the moonshaes more interesting with kazgoroth alive or dead, did I manage to capture the celtic norse feel or did I miss it. Is the extra detail interesting or useful. And more importantly is anyone interested in me detailing kazgoroths return in a playable campaign

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2015 :  09:23:34  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Netheril is well underway at the moment. I'm sorting this sourcebook rewrite into ages instead of regions (like the Moonshaes in Issue 9) that way i hope people will be able to see how Netheril evolved and expanded, rather than just a huge blob appearing in the middle of the Anauroch Basin which is one of my big bugbears with the original Netheril Boxed Set.

Just finishing my first drafts of the First, Nether, and Mythallar Age (just figuring out dates for the birth of Mystryl and Amaunator as deities - heretical i know). Then its on to the big ones - the Silver, Gold, Discovery, and Shadowed Ages.

Hopefully i'll be able to weave all the existing lore into a cohesive tapestry that is almost but not entirely like Netheril as we know it.


Oh and has anyone read Issue 9 yet?

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2015 :  21:02:05  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Netheril is really taking shape now. I have a decent writeup of all the ages.

I've even expanded the Diaspora Age to include a fairly large portion devoted to fleshing out Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath, and my take on the Dawn Cataclysm (a deific event without any god nonsense).

The question is what area do I focus on next.

Should I do Cormyr, Kara-Tur/Hordelands, or something else, any suggestions?

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dazzlerdal
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United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2016 :  12:00:10  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With the advent of the DMs guild I think I will be doing alternate realms regional sourcebooks for the various regions covered here so far.
So I'm going to revisit the Moonshaes Isles, finally finish netheril, and collate everything I've done from the cold lands and old empires into their own sourcebooks.
I'll tart them up a bit, try and do some maps, update things and try and correct a few errors I missed first time round.

If anyone fancies working with me on one of these projects for some accreditation (I'm unlikely to sell them for money it is just to get noticed by the industry if we make something of quality) then just let me know (pm or post). If anyone has skills in art or map making or in 5e rules (specifically monsters and magic items), or they just want to contribute ideas and they would like to offer help then that would be most appreciated.

Im looking to create a complete and comprehensive regional sourcebook that people can use to run numerous campaigns in the region so any and all experience and help is welcome and will get full accreditation.

Oh and if someone just has some feedback to offer on a past article, something I missed, something that didn't fit, some idea or a wish list to develop it further than that would be appreciated also.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30221 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2016 :  16:26:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I should think that creating your own entirely original content would get you noticed by the industry a lot quicker than just respinning someone else's content.

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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2016 :  16:50:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's not about respinning my work it's about writing a complete campaign setting for the region. What I've done so far would only be the basis or framework. It would be taking what we have in canon and developing it further, every stray mention every tiny paragraph.
So why are one tribe in narfell particularly xenophobic, who are those barbarians in the great glacier. What baronies exist in the duchies of damara, where did the npcs come from what are there history and motivations, what is soneillons influence in damara and narfell.
There are loads of things to expand on, what I've done is just the bare bones. 5e experts could convert certain iconic monsters in the region to 5e they would get recognition for that. Each region has their own spells that need converting, the magic items need converting.
WoTC are looking for talent. Everyone has their own talents and if they work together to make something quality it would look better than just working alone in isolation. Professional sourcebooks are a collaborative effort and each contributor is recognised for their own contribution so why amateur works. By collaborating you show your skills in the context of a larger work and that you can work as part of a team.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2016 :  14:39:23  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, it's rather late, but I allways found it interesting that in Faerun, Isis took over for Ishtar, as in reall life, they very probably were originally the same goddess. Isis, is the Hellenized form of Isis' name, the proper one is Iset/Ishet, obviously connected to Ishtar. Isis' Thayan name, Isharia, is also very similar to both Ishet and Ishtar.

The idea of the Sumerian and Babyloninian split of the pantheon, is nice, but I believe it would be more among the lines of Sumerian and ProtoSemitic split.
Ishtar/Inanna though is a very fractured, very primordial goddess. The split between Ishtar and Inanna though, as I mentioned, I think was less Sumerian and Babylonian, and more of Sumerian(Inanna) and proto-Semitic/Semito-Hammitic/Afro-Asiatic(Ishtar/Ishet).

Historically Inanna further fractured into herself and HannahHannah/Hebat/Kebat/Cybele(Hurrian/Fryggian goddess), while Ishtsar fragmented into herself, Astarte, Asherah, Anat and probably Isis. Anat further gave rise to the Greek Athena, and Carthaginian Tanit, While Astarte is seen as the origin of Aphrodite. Aphrodite even has Adonis, who's obviously Adon/Tammuz/Dummuzid.
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2016 :  20:31:23  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's a lot of fracturing and I wouldn't be surprised if the idea for Ishtar being Isis came from real world history (it wouldn't be the first time a few ideas were borrowed from real world in FR).

Having progressed my ideas on religion and mythology in the realms if I ever finish another Alternate Dimensions issue I will be moving away from deific actions completely and will present them merely as believed myth and religious stories in much the same as the real world bible which is probably how they should have been presented in the first place but with the godswar deific actions were all the rage.

So it is merely believed that religious propaganda by the church of Tempus that he fought and slew Targus and Garagos. In reality no one knows.

As for Unther and Mulhorand well they present a problem because those gods still have physical presences in the realms and so how does that affect a religion.

Ishtar we know left. Since I don't subscribe to the separate outer planes theory I'm going with Ishtar left for other lands and according to a single quote she likely ended up in the Shaar or further south along with many other Untheric gods.

What that means for the priests I don't know. Again I personally don't think the absence of a deity prevents spellcasting. In 1e (and maybe 2e) low level priests could cast spells without a god. Why is a patron deity needed what about shamans etc.

The low level of all the existing priests of Ishtar could be accounted for by the authorities slaying powerful or outspoken priests.


So what involvement does the church of Isis have with the church of Ishtar. I'm wondering if in the past the churches of Unther survived for a time in Thay (after Unther tried to re-establish its presence in the southern cities following the destruction of Narfell and Raumathar).

While Mulhorand's churches were expelled or eradicated during the rebellion the churches of Unther survived. However with their divine patrons having fled for other lands long ago they were in a poor state and so it was easy for priests from Isis's church and other Mulhorandi churches to secretly infiltrate them. I think that is why there are different names for the religions in Thay but I also think that infiltration fed back to native Unther over time and means that the church of Ishtar is actually represented by priests who in reality are mirroring the worship of Isis.

Ramman's worship may have survived intact because it had the structure of the army to support it.


To sum up I'm still moving away from direct deific involvement in the realms because it has brought little of gaming value to the realms and has detracted from it significantly because everyone wants to fight one.

Gilgeam of course is the sole exception because he has always had a physical presence in the realms. The rest of the Untheric gods are not detailed anywhere so I assume they have already fled. The Mulhorandi gods are represented by what appears to be a divinely infused mortal that acts as the figurehead of the church but otherwise the gods are not involved.

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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2016 :  20:57:06  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, one of the more interesting stuff in older materials, was that they implied the fracture into the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheon, might have happened in Faerun. I think it's just possible that the Mesopotamian gods who came to Toril, were those before fracture, and simply mirrored their plannar counterparts in the fracture.

Isis taking over Ishtar's church was always seen as somewhat special, so I think maybe when Ishtar, Inanna and Isis(Ishet) came to Toril, all three were still, at least up to a level one divinity,

That's why Isis could take over Ishtar's church so easily, as she and Ishtar could be once one deity(they very probably were in reall life, aside from very similar names, both were the Queens of Heaven" etc), Isis had some special rights, once Ishtar left.

If Ishtar, Inanna and Isis/Ishet were originally one goddess even in Faerun, it would also fit the split. Ishtar is Neutral, Inanna was Lawful Evil, and Isis/Ishet/Isharia is Neutral good.

Also, seeing Ereshkigal was mentioned in Zakhara, I wouldn't be surprised if some Untheri deities escaped to Zakhara.
Not to mention, Midani, the Zakharan Language, is in the Untheric group of languages. This could be explained if one or more of Untheri deities(and their worshippers), fleed to Zakhara and influenced it's language.

Edited by - Baltas on 24 Feb 2016 15:13:25
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Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
497 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2016 :  18:28:27  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So what do you think dazzlerdal?
I think it's possible that if Untheric deities escaped on places on Toril, one of those places could be Zakhara, seeing Ereshkigal being mentioned there, and Midani(the language of Zakhara) being of the Untheric group...
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 26 Feb 2016 :  19:51:48  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well given the language link (when you mentioned midani being Untheric although I haven't checked) I'd say the chance is quite high.

A brief read of Zakhara mentions the pantheonic forces conquering the southern isles (where some of the untheric named ruins are kept) so it is likely the untheric influence is long dead.

I'm sure I read somewhere about Ulgarth or one of the other countries on the border of the Old Empires which mentioned they are all born with the blood of the gods in their veins (I can't remember the exact words and it was only a single passage) so I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few of the untheric gods fled south during Gilgeam's reign and ended up in Zakhara (or they died and their people ended up in Zakhara).

I haven't got Zakhara on my radar at the moment to visit but if I did I'd be checking when the countries bordering the southern coast of Faerun were settled/established in their current form and when Gilgeam became god king of Unther. If there is overlap between Gilgeam becoming god king and it being prior to the modern versions of the southern countries being established then that is when I would look to one or more of the gods fleeing south. Then I'd try and tie it up with whatever time frames exist in Zakhara for those islands being established (before the pantheonic religion started and dominated itself).

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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
96 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2016 :  21:34:08  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have to say I really enjoy these Alternate Dimension PDFs. Quite inspiring to read. Really nice work.

Edited by - deserk on 10 Mar 2016 21:34:44
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3468 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2016 :  21:52:27  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well I'm glad you like it. I am intending at some point to carry it on (when I have time - the new job is very taxing) but it will most likely involve the DMs guild (with a plainer version available here for my own rule set) as I've been gradually moving closer and closer to writing entire sourcebooks.

I've nearly finished a netheril rewrite but it has gotten so large that I struggle to keep track of my own ideas.

So my original intention was to reinvent the realms bit by bit without changing a thing. The same events happen but things are subtly different, and hopefully by doing so I'd encourage others not to be so slavishly bound by canon and see that you can make the world your own without changing much. Everything can be interpreted in a thousand different ways and canon is just the lie most often told.

So did I succeed?

Out of interest what was your favourite piece

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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
96 Posts

Posted - 10 Mar 2016 :  23:38:48  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like that you've tried to blend together the good ideas of all the editions, that's what I try to do myself. I'm not too concerned about canon, more concerned about what's interesting and fun, and what fits the spirit of the Realms.

I haven't gotten the chance to read all of the issues. But out of the ones I've read thus far I think the Moonshae Isles Issue was particularly awesome and valuable to me as DM. I liked the subtle additions you've brought to these islands, to make each stand out on it's own and feel distinct from each other. I feel it's very important for regions to be diverse with themes, power groups & organizations, races/cultures, etc. Also if there's anything I value extremely much when it comes to lore, it's a campaign guide or gazetter to help set a campaign in whatever region it's set in. And also I personally really like exploring lands that are beyond the Heartlands, since the Heartlands feel often kind of crowded already with content and limelight, while lands beyond it feel quite overlooked.

In terms of future content, would really love to see your take on the Hordelands. That region really could use some revisioning to make it feel part of the Realms, since the published work on it has so many overt parallels with RW history that draws one away from feeling that this is the Realms. Of course the Dragon Magazine article on the Endless Wastes really helped update that region a lot, though it was of course a rather short campaign gazetter. Would be cool to see some updating done on Murghom and Semphar too. Personally don't like that Semphar's ruler is called Abu Bakr and that it's a caliphate. Given that nation's Persian-like names for it's cities and also it's political situation in the Horde (2nd) book seeming to be modelled on on the medieval Persian state of Khwarezmid and it's wars with the Mongols (Tuigans), I think it would be cooler if Semphar was more influenced by Persia and specifically pre-Islamic Zoroastrian Persia, and maybe play around with dualist beliefs of a god of light (aspect of Selune? Lathander? Kossuth?) and a god of darkness (aspect of Shar?). Since we already have Calimshan and Zakhara for all that Arabian Nights/Islamic influence.

Also, not far from the Moonshae Isles, would be really cool to see the ancient and old, non-Moonshae Northlander Kingdoms of Ruathym, Tuern, Gundarlun and the Purple Rocks properly detailed and catalogued, as well as all the other ones. It would be neat if at least one of these islands had retained that ancient rune magic tradition that the early Northmen had, rather than all of them being magic-phobic. It's also interesting that Tuern so close to the eastern tip of Anchorome. But of course, the lore on these islands are a lot more sparse than what we have on the Moonshae Isles.

Edited by - deserk on 11 Mar 2016 00:29:24
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 11 Mar 2016 :  08:35:29  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The moonshaes was the most difficult to finish and I made a few mistakes like breaking eds rule of creating three questions for every lore answer provided.
I never intended to merge the editions with the moonshaes it just happened to evolve that way as I developed its history and kazgoroths story.
I hope to revisit it with a grand adventure arc which if TEGG get involved in the DMs guild I will pitch to them. It's a grand and perilous tour of the islands trying to stop kazgoroths return. And it also requires me to develop the sourcebook some more.

I have done some preliminary work on the hordelands and figured out what my focus is (which is the hardest and most crucial part as I then reread all published works and interpret it in the new focus). The hordelands will be a greater part of karatur and the whole mythology of the way/the path will be reinterpreted with imaskar in mind. Plus that ambuchar devayam/tan chin guy will be a main story point in several historic events.
I like the Eastern feel of the hordelands and karatur but I find the mythology uninspiring and lacking in cohesion or realism so I will probably do more westernised background to give the mythology some detail and logical reasoning behind it.

But that's a long way off. Im going to revisit damara, Vaasa, and narfell first and do a sourcebook on them. Damara is going to be much more intrigue filled ( like real world medieval feudal nations) while Vaasa will be the strife torn frontier land filled with ancient evils.

Then I want to finish netheri. Then I will do hordelands or the shaar or the old empires, whatever takes my fancy.

If you fancy having a go yourself I heartily recommend it. Doing work with a view to putting it out there makes you work that much harder. And I'd be happy to help or work collaboratively on a piece (as time allows). I'm already working on an adventure site with on of the scribes here which I think will end up on the DMs guild.

Now is the best time to make your own mark on the realms. The owners have stepped back and handed us the keys so let's open the door to a new shared world

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