Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Forgotten Realms: Alternate Dimensions Fan Mag
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 10

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  03:20:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

I think it's also possible Eldath was originally a Fey power, adopted by elves and human (humans adopting Eldath from elves, or directly from Fey), seeing how fairly consistently Eldath is tied with Fey and Elves, or places they live...(and seeing how elves originally worshipped Fey Deities before the Seldarine, and some, especially Wood and Silvan Elves, still do)
Another Fey/Yuir deity, perhaps?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Mar 2018 03:28:19
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  03:53:36  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, suggested that as one possibility in the Yuir Gods thread - and then, I think it would be possible Eldath was the sister of Khelliara/Khalreshaar, and Mielikki would have "inherted" this relationship with Eldath, when she merged with Khelliara/Khalreshaar.

Another possibility though, is that Sarula Iliene, the Nixie Queen, was one of the Yuir Gods, and Eldath merged with her.

She is described as Fey deity, that joined the Seldarine, due to her connection with Rillifane Rallathil.

My guess is Sarula Iliene could be originally connected with Relkath and/or (less probably) Magnar, after these were subsumed/absorbed by Rillifane Rallathil, Sarula Iliene joined the Seldarine, but for some reason (ie her cult dying out) merged with her close friend with a close portfolio, Eldath.

Then it's possible Sarula Iliene and Khelliara/Khalreshaar were sisters, and both Eldath and Mielikki inherited their relationship.

(And maybe Relkath was their father?)

[EDIT]

Sarula Iliene also became active again during the 4E era, along with (other?) Yuir Gods, so it's possible that Eldath dissaperance during that period, was the Sarula Iliene aspect of he Eldath-Sarula merger becoming temprarily dominant, and something similar maybe going on with Rillifane Rallathil, with who Relkath of the Infinite Branches became the dominant in their fusion/merger.

It's also possible Eldath, was allways the same as Sarula Iliene, and during the wild times after the Spellplague, till the second Sundering, Eldath's more primal and active aspect, re-emerged, to better deal with those wild times.

Edited by - Baltas on 26 Mar 2018 04:01:25
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  05:46:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seems like their were a lot of female Yuir Totems (because I've pegged both Auril and Mmberlee as ex-Fey and former Yuir deities as well). Maybe the 'Yuir' were like the Amazons from paradise Island?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  06:42:01  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eldath being fey I can get behind. The question would be is do the fey and elves still worship her. If not why not.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  09:04:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Snobbery? If even half the deities I think may have been Yuir are fey/Elven originally, then it seems they have a distinct dislike for elven deities who have broadened their fanbase (have non-Elf worshipers).

Or, conversely, she may be worshiped by the fey under another name. What if Eldath and Mielikki are the same Goddess? Mielikki already has a presence and name within the Seldarine. Mielikki is probably Netherese, and thus, likely Gur in origin. Eldath may have just been the name she was known by among the Turami and/or Talfir. Its not really that much of a stretch, at all. I also think Mielikki is the same power as Ehlonna, who was/is GH and is now 'Core' (4e). The lore (PS) says the two live together, but I think that's just a matter of mortal perception; i think they are atually the same being. I just think her Eldath aspect may have had more to do with 'watery places' in nature than her others.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7132 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  15:45:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Snobbery? If even half the deities I think may have been Yuir are fey/Elven originally, then it seems they have a distinct dislike for elven deities who have broadened their fanbase (have non-Elf worshipers).

Or, conversely, she may be worshiped by the fey under another name. What if Eldath and Mielikki are the same Goddess? Mielikki already has a presence and name within the Seldarine. Mielikki is probably Netherese, and thus, likely Gur in origin. Eldath may have just been the name she was known by among the Turami and/or Talfir. Its not really that much of a stretch, at all. I also think Mielikki is the same power as Ehlonna, who was/is GH and is now 'Core' (4e). The lore (PS) says the two live together, but I think that's just a matter of mortal perception; i think they are atually the same being. I just think her Eldath aspect may have had more to do with 'watery places' in nature than her others.



Not picturing the goddess of hunting and the goddess of peace and tranquility as the same. Granted, both are nature loving and good, but their personaes are different.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  17:46:37  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I wasn't really 100% with that one. I like to streamline my (unified) pantheon, but that one didn't work for me because I've already linked Mielikki to so many other goddesses, RW and D&D.

Except for one thing - Ehlonna is a perfect fit for Eldath. Ehlonna isn't about hunting - she is also a peaceful nature goddess. The only thing the two seem to have in common is their unicorn symbol, and yet, Planscape lumped them together in one Realm and said they were 'like minded', which I don't see for exactly the reason you ascribe above. I personally prefer keeping them separate (and saying Ehlonna is Eldath rather then Mielikki - it makes sense they live together), but its not a stretch to say they are somewhat different aspects of some 'Earth Daughter' Archtype.

Gods have literally been portrayed as having been from different races (Mielikki, for example, has her (half)Elven aspect of Khalreshaar - "she who opposes Shar"), so having one pet bunnies and another eat bunnies is no big deal - its all part of nature.

I'm sort of arguing against myself here because I am torn. They are more similar than they are dissimilar, but I have already combined way too many and things are starting to break down (because the more deities I associate one with, the more other myths start to not work). Eldath makes more sense as a very early, half-elven mortal who ascended, because she is a minor goddess, yet on some levels, she appears to have some of the quirks/perks of an ancient deity. The thing that most convinces me she isn't as big a deal as I picture her being is that Elminster literally summoned her in one story, just to 'show up' her priests (who didn't think Elminster had a right to tell them what to do). They learned REAL QUICK who was in charge. Thats an example of a demipower summoning a lesser power, which shouldn't be (I think it has to do with those 'Harper deals' between the Gods and Mystra's Chosen).

At the end of the day, I see Eldath being a truly ancient goddess, probably the Earthmother, but her Eldath aspect is more fitting for rural, primitive folk (or 'savages'), like how most Wood Elves live, or many, many humans. Civilization has pushed her Eldath aspect into the background, and her Chauntea aspect has come to the fore. Thus, 'Eldath' is a version of the Earthmother archtype that's fading, which explains her low-lev despite her portfolio.

Mielikki, on the other hand, I picture being an 'Earthdaughter' type, who is more aggressive. She fits Artemis, but her relationship with her 'mother' is probably more like Demeter and Persephone. Funny, but Loviatar and Talona are sisters, and I always pictured Mielikki as a third sister (same pantheon, but probably a half-sibling somehow). In the CBoN there is a story of how Loviatar 'stormed the gates of hell' to try and rescue her sister, and that story kind of reminds me of Persephone being stuck in Hades. Once again, here, I feel like all the myths are just alternate versions of the events told from differing perspectives.

EDIT:
The name 'Ilmatar' also comes from the Finnish, and although under that name she is mostly a sky/air nature deity, under the name Luonnotar she was a more generalized 'mother nature' type. Perhaps when Issek emigrated to the Realms he usurped that name for himself, and THE Ilmatar became Eldath? That would be a nice fit, except why would she switch from air to water? I mean, we could probably account for that with some Realms-specific story, like maybe she had a battle with Akadi and lost her 'air' portfolio completely, and while she was thusly diminished, Issek stepped in and stole the name. So before she fades completely, she merges her essence with elven maid and reinvents herself as Eldath... something along those lines. Its a stretch, though.

I keep forgetting you hate gods, so, my apologies for putting all of this here.
(If it's any consolation, I picture them more like 'supers' than actual gods. Just another cosmic race with powers, is all.)

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Mar 2018 18:01:18
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2018 :  18:59:17  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't hate the gods. I'm adding more gods into my version of the realms every day.
I hate the gods depicted as people. They are metaphysical, beyond thought, beyond emotion, beyond desire, beyond anything physical beings could understand. They stopped being people when they underwent apotheosis to true godhood (demigod are not included) and she'd their single physical form for a new dimension of existence.

I mildly dislike the whole aspect thing and one God is actually another. It makes no sense in any model of godhood that I can conceive of.

The gods I love. Their churches provide rich inspiration for realmsian development, but the depiction of gods under tsr and wotc has been childish at best.

Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2018 :  03:36:18  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Eldath being fey I can get behind. The question would be is do the fey and elves still worship her. If not why not.



Hmm, did you maybe miss my last commemt on the previous page? (It's possible seeing it was the very last commment on it) I mentioned there events of Eldath being worshipped, or implied to be worshipped by elves and fey:
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

-dazzlerdal
Actually, Eldath's first mention (not counting possibly the Rengarth/Goliath cult which would be -357 DR and maybe before) is a bit older - she is first mentioned in -167 DR (The Year of Sudden Kinship), in Myth Nantar, a distinctly non-human settlement at that point, asociated with Seas Elves and Merfolk.
(from "Sea of Fallen Stars")
quote:
Lives above Serôs tie themselves to the sun and moon and the changing seasons. Here in Eldath's embrace,
neither stars nor seasons are as intrusive, though they are no less present. Each creature and civilization
views time differently, though the entire lifeblood of the sea shifts in unified answer to the subtle movement of
time. Finding a way to unify their measurement of time so all races (including those sages in Faerűn with an
interest) shall be my gift to those who honor the Loremaster and other powers in the Inner Sea.
-Arkallus Vorduhl, lorekeeper of Oghma and early native of Myth Nantar, the Year of Sudden Kinship


(And Eldath is a major deity in Myth Nantar, up till 1370s)

Many other areas were that were Eldath's old centres of worship had often Elven and Fey presence - Myth Ondath and Rystal Wood were inhabitted (even originally) by Sylvan Elves and Fey, Myth Drannor was originally elven city, and latter still partially had an elven population, and recently again a (largelly or entirelly) elven population.

The Myrloch Lake shrines at Moonshae Isles preserved by nereids.

Orcs raised by Eldathyns, and worshipping Eldath - Ondonti - became Fey.

Ed, in his first description of Eldath (in "Down-to-earth divinity"), noted specifically Nymphs in Faerun, worship Eldath:

quote:
nymphs worship
Eldath (they believe she is the source
of the power to kill those who look upon
their naked forms).


I think it's also possible Eldath was originally a Fey power, adopted by elves and human (humans adpoting Eldath from elves, or directly from Fey), seeing how fairly consistently Eldath is tied with Fey and Elves, or places they live...(and seeing how elves originally worshipped Fey Deities before the Seldarine, and some, especilly Wood and Silvan Elves, still do)



It's quite notable the nereids on Moonshae Isles, were the only fully confirmed worshippers/servants of Eldath during the 4E era, but it's very possible Eldath also is worshipped by other Fey, or even the Llewyrr Elves.

If we connect Eldath with Sarula Iliene (eirther by Eldath at some point merging with Sarula, or them being jist two apects of the same entity all along), she has even further elven worshippers. Both are worshippd by water fey, and are ocerly quite simiar, up to their priests sharing the same (rather rare) favored weapon - a net.

Eldath very name, might have an elven etymology - Ondath, means "Peace" in elven, and it's possible the name Eldath is derived from it, seeinga name even partially meaning "Peace", quite fit's Eldath.

Previously, I though it might be connected tob Chondath, and Jhaamdath, but it seems to be now less probable, especially that Yrlaancel, was renamed to Myth Ondath when the population started to universally or near universally worship Eldath.

It is possible though (On)dath, is a word that was borrowed by Jhaamdathans from the Elven Language, an the name "Jhaamdath", means "Jhaam's peace", or "Peace to Jhaam", ie as an obituary in Jhaam's name.

Also, I don't think two gods being revealed as the same, doesn't make sense.

For example, it was fairly recently discovered, Apollo, started out as the Mesopotamian Nergal. Nergal's Akkadian title, was "Aplu Enlil", meaning "the son of Enlil". This gave rise to the Hurrian and Hittite name of Nergal - Aplu and Apaliunas. Aplu's cult then arrived to Greece, via the Greeks travel to Grece in the first placce through Asia Minor, or via their colonies there, becoming Apollo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aplu_(deity)

Apollo, on the suffrace, might seem a quite different deity than Nergal, but what is a bit less known fact, Apollo was also the god of plague. Nergal, also was a sun god, if representing the "underworld sun" - the sun after it settles (goes to the underworld) - and Nergal was often considered the chthonnic aspect/incarnation of Shamash/Utu.

It can be also explained how such process, happens - for example, two different populations, worship a deity. Due to cultural differences, and other possible issue, the two groups start to worship a deity differently. The difference in name, might be easily explained with one group taking a deity's title as it's name as did the Hurrians with Nergal.

A power can also create a specialized aspect, for some reason, and this aspect can become the dominant one.

The name difference, could be even explained with "Eldath", being originally a title of Saula, or vice versa. It's more probable with Eldath being originally a title though, as it might be tile containing "Ondath" (Peace in Elven).

With gods above Demigod rank, stoping being people when they undergo apotheosis to true godhood, Eldath was a demigoddess dwelling in the material plane before the Time of Troubles. It's also possible, that in post-4E times, it means Eldath was an Archfey before the Time of Troubles.

Although there is some evidence Eldath was allready once a lesser, or even intermediate deity, as the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook (by Steven E. Schend), describes Eldath as quite powerfull goddess:
quote:
Notes: Despite the dogma oft-repeated by Umberlee's faithful, she no more rules the oceans than Talos
rules the land. Both gods influence and control the destruction
within their domains, but Umberlee's reach
extends only along the surface and the shallows to a
depth of about 100 feet. As Umberlee and her worshipers
dominate Upper Serôs among the shallows, Eldath
keeps the peace in the depths. More than 100 feet
below the surface, the chaos above rarely intrudes on
the peace, tranquility, and calm ballet of the tidal currents.
While Umberlee rules surface-worlders view of
the oceans, many here point to calm Eldath as the true
goddess of the sea.


This of course, seeing the books in-universe character, quite probably reflects the beliefs of the population of Myth Nantar, but still, I tgink it may be evidence Eldath allready once was of a higher rank than a demigoddess, beoe beoming a demigoddess (again), due to losing worshippers.

- Markustay

Good observation on Ehlonna and Eldath - yes, they are quite similar, and it is probable she may be an aspect of Eldath, rather than Mielikki.

Although it's also possible Ehlonna is instead an aspect of Eilistraee, seeing Ehlonna's name among elves, is "Ehlenestra".

About other setting, it's also notable Melora from the 4E core setting/Points of Light, is quite similar to Eldath:
http://dnd4.wikia.com/wiki/Melora

It's notable, as Melora is also often worshipped by elves, and among the Firbolgs a Triple Goddess, consisting of Sehanine, Melora and the Taven Queen.

With Elmister summoning Eldath, well heroes in novels,do some pretty improbably impressive stuff. Elmister is actually an example, but as is Drizzt defeating Demogorgon recently.

Eldath could salso lose a LOT of her original power - it's notable that Selune lost power up to becoming a lesser deity, as did Jergal resign from most of his divinity, and became a Demigid. And both were, and are MAJOR players in the Realms.

And as I mentioned when writting about Myth Natar, Eldath is described as "as the true
goddess of the sea" in Sea of Fallen Stars...

I agree with the Ancient Goddess views, and connection to the Earthmother - the Earthmother, is inspired largelly by Danu - and Danu was a goddess connected to water - mostly lakes and rivers.

It is notable the River Danube is possibly named after Danu (originally Danuuius), and in the Vedic myythology, there was also a goddess Danu, which was a primeval goddess of waters:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)

And as I mentioned before, Eldath also is worshipped on the Moonshae Isles...

About Eldath being worshipped all around, she's even worshipped by the Tuigan, as detailed in The Horde boxed set:
quote:
In addition to these two, the tribes believe in a
number of lesser gods and spirits. The beast cult
of horses is particularly important. An aspect of
Eldath is venerated, since water is so important.


This is interesting, as it could be seenmore probable the Tuigan would worship aspects (or maybe servants, as you suggested with Teylas) of the Elemental Lords allready, and the peoples in the region also worshiped them - Raumathar, and most Raumvirans were stated to havd been wprshipping the Elemental Lords. So it seemed probable the Tuigan would worship Istishia, yet they worship Eldath.

But we know with Eke Bayalun (stepmother of Yamun Khahan), that the Maraloi elves have contact with the Tuigan - so it's possible Tuigan got the cult of Eldath, from the Maraloi elves.

I also seen you connect Maraloi with the LeShay, which has a lot of sense - Maraloi were descibed as an "Ancient Eastern of shoot of the Elven race", and we also know LeShay were active in the region - having fairly close relation with Imaskar.

This could be further evidence of Eldath being a very anncient goddess...

Another possibility though, is if Eldath was one of the Yuir Gods, and therefore the gods of the Arthraen, and Tuigan could also learn the of Eldath from them.

A bit of topic though, Eldath with this, could fit as one of gods of the Utter East in the Utter East project, as a Danu figure.

With (the Gaelic) Danu though, she also was closelly connected with Brigid, and even though by some researchers to be the same, although younger figure, and Daughter the Dagda (A Silvanus figure), like Eldath is at times considered of Silvanus.

This could have sense Eldath is a Brigid-like, lesser incarnation of the Earthmother (Danu?). Another paralell from Greyhawk, is Berei, a more humanized, Neutral Good aspect of Beory. Although others have connected Berei with Ehlonna, further adding to your theory...

About Selune, in the Sea of Fallen Stars sourcebook, there is an interesting legend mentioned:
quote:
Olone
(o-LAHN-ay)
An old mythic tale within the oral traditions of both
the whales and some worshipers of Eldath names the full
moon as Olone, a former lover of the Green Goddess.
He was once a mortal merman who fought Umberlee to
protect his lover from her wrath, and she evilly changed
him into a bubble to rise up, far away from his beloved
ocean. Olone and Eldath remain ever apart, but his staring
eye coolly lights the depths without disturbing them
as he watches his love. Even when worshipers of Selűne
try to educate them otherwise about the moon and
godly powers, they cling to this old romantic myth, and
the whalesongs about Olone also keep the name alive.


This is quite interesting, especially that "Olone" seems to be a version/corruption of the name of Selune.

This might be a corrupted version of historic event of Eldath helping Selune in her original war against Shar in prehistoric times. Only that shar, got swapped for Umberlee, as Umberlee is more of devil-figure to the population of Seros, and many undersea creatures.

It also implies Eldath and Selune were lovers, which might be why Elminster likes this story so much :
quote:
Elminster's Notes: I love the story of Olone and Eldath,
which has numerous permutations from different places and
times. The lengthy tragic ballad, when sung by Serôsian
bards, always brings a tear or three to this old sage's eye.


[EDIT]

It's also notable Eldath titles - "Mother Guardian of Groves", and "Mother of the Waters", sound quite similar to Earthmother's titl/name, and Mielikki, during the Time of Troubles, reffered to Eldath as "Datha", quite similar to Danu. Although Datha, might be just an affectionate nickname Mielikki has for Eldath, especially that Eldath's name, might be connected to the Elven word "Ondath"...

[EDIT2]

And with how much ground in truth the story of Olone (Selune) and Eldath has, it was described as remembered and told by whales, and the Sea of Fallen Stars Sourcebook notes about the timeline:
quote:
Epochs of the Inner Sea
No historical records date back to the Time of Dragons,
as the early years of Faerűn's history are named. Serôsian
historians usually mark four major eras in its history,
while it has just recently opened the doors to a new,
fifth, era.
The First Epoch (Time of Beginnings): Stretching
from fables and myths to the emergence of recorded history,
the First Epoch looms large as a time of change as
the Serôsian races all take to the sea. Only the whales
have much knowledge of this time
, and all they sing of
are the delights of meeting the new people of Serôs and
of the dragons that loom large in the surface-world
lands. This Epoch ends with the elven migrations into
Serôs and their Rise to power.
The Second Epoch (Time of the Elves)


So this indicates the whales - that are at least one of the sources of the story about Olone - have a recollection of events of The Time of Dragons, or even earlier...

Edited by - Baltas on 28 Mar 2018 08:51:35
Go to Top of Page

dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
3978 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2018 :  19:53:13  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since I don't do a god centric model of religion aspects do not make sense. The belief moulds the god not the other way around in a non god centric model.

So if people are worshipping a deity called Ishtar then that worship goes toward powering Ishtar (if such a divine being exists) or goes towards making a deity called Ishtar exist (although that takes much more worship). If the people worship a god called Isis then that worship goes towards powering the god called Isis.

There is no divine postal service that says if people worship Ishtar then actually redirect it towards Isis because Ishtar is actually an aspect of Isis.



In the realms (and elsewhere presumably) names have power. More correctly truenames have power. As mortals if you discover your truename then you keep it a secret because it grants others power over you if used badly. Elminster and the other chosen have shared their truenames with each other so they can call upon the others in times of need.

As a deity it would seem that the truenames are shared far and wide because it allows others to call upon your power (in the form of spells and other divine aid), and it also means that everytime it is invoked the power is donated to the divine being (which can be used to donate spells and perform miracles etc). THat is why gods create religions and form cults so people invoke their name and in worshipping them give them power and in return the worshippers can call upon that aid.

Aspects and aliases don't work because it means the truename isn't being invoked and requires a deus ex machine explanation to say that the god set up this divine postal service so worship of another name goes to him - doesn't make sense to me.



In a non god centric model of religion a god derives power by his worshippers gaining more worshippers. So when a church wars and conquers a rival one then the conquering god gains more power. When a religion is eliminated the god dies. There are sneakier ways of doing this however. A church can infiltrate a rival and begin insinuating its own method of worship into the prayers and dogma of the rival. First you have your god mentioned in the prayers as a divine servant and then the prayers become to god A who is god B reborn and then eventually all mention of god A is completely removed. However such an infiltration requires a lot of time and effort and is rarely guaranteed to achieve success in much more than a single temple or small region.
That's as close to alias and aspects as I can conceive in a non god centric model with the exception of one church falsely spreading worship of another god in a malign way as is done against Shaundakul's faith in Anauroch. One church (I cannot remember which) has it's agents infiltrate local tribes and everytime something bad happens (which they sometimes cause) they attribute it to Shaundakul. Then they start setting up evil cults to this new version of Shaundakul in the hope they will take hold and expand and override the original church of Shaundakul. The belief moulds the god and so this evil heresy of Shaundakul worship may replace the existing church and make him evil in the eyes of the common folk (thus granting the evil gods another ally).


As for Eldath being widespread I never take mention of a god as fact of the religion being there. A tribe in the hordelands may worship some being in a manner that resembles worship of Eldath. Faerunian merchants encounter this tribe and interpret it as worshipping Eldath and thus everyone thinks they worship Eldath. In truth the tribe worship a spirit called Molgant (make up any name you like) and have no idea who Eldath is). Alternatively with the spread of Faerunian merchants they have brought the worship of foreign gods with them and converted this tribe into worshipping Eldath instead of Molgant (like the Red Knight in Yaimunnahar).


And the Olone thing, Elminster notes its a nice story that he likes. Stories are fictional (or mostly fictional).



I will probably use Eldath as some fey being who eventually gained some human worship. It may be that she was first worshipped by a house of elves from Myth Drannor that changed into sea elves. These sea elves have helped spread her worship to human lands around the Inner Sea and thus she has joined the Faerunian Pantheon while her worship in Seros has dwindled to almost nothing. Shrines to Eldath in the Moonshaes are actually shrines to a similar fey being found on one of the islands but the local humans assume its Eldath (the fey don't talk about religion to humans so don't care what they call their lord).


Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9

Alternate Realms Site
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2018 :  03:12:52  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, I can get what you mean, but I'm not exactly sure if deities, would be eager to make aviable their truename.

This would be especially troublesome, with deities of fiendish origin - to gather power to ascend, they would have to reveal their true name to get power from worship to ascend.

With others striving towards divinity it would also make them more dangerous.

Not to mention, Volo (with Elminster's help), had this to write about Truenames in VoLo's Guide to
All Things Magical
(written in real life by Ed and Eric L, Boyd)

quote:
"Truename" is something of a misnomer;
such names are identifiers that must apply correctly to the caster
but may be pseudonyms, pet names, or favored titles or phrases.
They are usually not innate, unchangeable, unique names that
define the caster from birth. "The Sage of Shadowdale," for
instance, is a truename for Elminster.


And deities, from the start of the setting, use multiple names - quite notably Hoar and Assuran, and he uses them fairly interchangably, deriving power from worship of both.

As does aparently Talos (or rather Kozah), with all of the gods he subsumed.

Indeed, as the Ancient Kozah is described as pretty much 100% identical to the modern Talos, this pretty much suggests Talos is a (probably Chondathan) name for Kozah, or a Jhaamdathan storm god Kozah subsumed, and uses mostly his name today, due to Jhaamdathan being the ancestor of Thorass and Commmon.

Targus and Garagos are the same - with Garagos either being the Thorass or Chondathan form of Targus' name, or a Jhaamdathan deity Targos defeated.

Jannath, is quite probably the same deity as Chauntea.

"Jannath" is a name that can easily be seen as having evolved into "Chauntea". The "J" sound, can shift into the "Ch" sound, for various reasons, as words/names, change through years, or or are borrowed by another language.

With the change, "Jannath", allready becomes "Channath" - I think one can sea a easy route from that inro Chauntea.

With that, I think you can understand my dounts about your idea here - it's jist there had been so many records of divinities using multiple names, and granting spells under them, and since the start of the the published Realms (ie Hoar and Assuran)

Of course, there is an issue with Jannath in Netheriil: Empire of Magic, being characterized quite like the the Moonshade Isles' Earthmother - even having Earthmother as an title::

quote:
Jannath
Greater Power of Elysium NG
PORTFOLIO:Wild nature, forests, wild animals, the sea and
sea creatures, agriculture, cultivation, farmers,
gardeners, the fundamental elements, summer
TITLES:The Great Mother, the Grain Goddess, the
Golden Goddess, She Who Shapes All, the
Forest Mother, Guardian of the Wilds and
Deeps, Earthmother, Keeper of the Wild


quote:
While she turned
her blessing upon those plants and animals that had been domesticated,
granting them fertility and abundance, she protected the
forests, plains, jungles, arctic wildernesses, and even the depths of
the sea with an equal generosity of spirit. Any who burned forests
or grasslands, cut wood to excess, overfished, hunted whales, or
attempted wholesale slaughter of the fur-bearing animals of
Faerűn found their efforts rewarded by aggressive visitations from
the most clever of thieves and vicious predators of the animal and
plant kingdom, who ruined their profits—or their lives.


Of course, this is due to how Forgotten Realms canon, conflated the Earthmother and Chauntea, and tried to explain the Earthmother as the remanant of Chauntea's old, primal nature.

And there are some issues people take with Netheriil: Empire of Magic

Of course, one could make this into something interesting - like Jannath, being born exactly as a misunderstaanding and adoption of the Talfir worship of the Earthmother by the Low Netherese.

Although this would require for the Talfir to know of the Earthmother, before settling the Moonshae Isles, but that isn't that of an improbable stretch. It could be also explained The Netherese adopted the Earthmother through another source.

Or that the Netherese as the first just started to syncretize/confuse Jannath (Chauntea) with the Earthmother...

With Eldath, I can get through why you think she is a Fey power first worshipped (possible aside from water fey) by elves who became sea elves from Myth Drannor (or rather even Cormanthor), before settling in Seros.

With Eldath though, one could see Nereids or sea elves could bring her cult to the Moonshae Isles, seeing Deep Sashelas waas also chilling on the Moonshae Isles then...
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  19:26:07  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that you overcomplicate this whole race/diefic crossreferencing. It should be clear that Ed took a lot of RL mythologies and used them as inspiration for his gods. This continued and it is also confirmed by linking RL Earth with FR. However I doubt it that Ed even knew all that you have dug out in his time and even if he did I doubt he would just copy it. IMHO it should be taken as inspiration and little wordplay. This whole thing started with Netheril sourcebook where is clearly stated that Kozah is old name of Talos, ... It is from different era so it make sense that the same god was named differently then, possibly using this in far away regions like Kara-Tur, Chult, ... but saying Eldath is Chauntea doesn't make sense to me. More likely you are biting your own tail.

For me Eldath is a minor goddes of water and peace and could be originaly Fey diety. Idea of her involvement in Jhaamdat inspired me as I have been thinking for a long time why was Umberlee taking part in it's fall...
Go to Top of Page

Baltas
Senior Scribe

Poland
574 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2018 :  21:33:23  Show Profile Send Baltas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wrigley, I think you conflated my and Markustay's comments, and misunderstood them.

I didn't arrgue Talos is different deity than Kozah - opposite of that, I just gave two explanations, for his change of name.

With Eldath, Markustay, and up to a level I, mused about Eldath's connection to the Moonshae Isles Earthmother (who was established since 4E as a separate enity from Chauntea), not Chauntea, and latter I suggested that if Jannath wasn't Chauntea, then maybe she was the Eaerhmother, based on some facts connecting them.

The Earthmother also isn't Ed's creation, but was added, along the Moonshae Isles, very early (pre-publishing) to the Realms. Ed did write possibly latter stuff with Moonshae Isles, but they wereb't in his original Realms.

It's curious though that if you read the earliest mentioned Realms Lore (like "Down-to-earth Divinity"), it's Eldath (and Silvanus), who are connected to druidism, not Chauntea.

But it was more just theorizing on our, and I did note I think it's more probable Eldath started out as an unrelated Fey deity.
Go to Top of Page

Wrigley
Senior Scribe

Czech Republic
459 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2018 :  19:47:12  Show Profile  Visit Wrigley's Homepage Send Wrigley a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas

Wrigley, I think you conflated my and Markustay's comments, and misunderstood them.

I didn't arrgue Talos is different deity than Kozah - opposite of that, I just gave two explanations, for his change of name.

With Eldath, Markustay, and up to a level I, mused about Eldath's connection to the Moonshae Isles Earthmother (who was established since 4E as a separate enity from Chauntea), not Chauntea, and latter I suggested that if Jannath wasn't Chauntea, then maybe she was the Eaerhmother, based on some facts connecting them.

The Earthmother also isn't Ed's creation, but was added, along the Moonshae Isles, very early (pre-publishing) to the Realms. Ed did write possibly latter stuff with Moonshae Isles, but they wereb't in his original Realms.

It's curious though that if you read the earliest mentioned Realms Lore (like "Down-to-earth Divinity"), it's Eldath (and Silvanus), who are connected to druidism, not Chauntea.

But it was more just theorizing on our, and I did note I think it's more probable Eldath started out as an unrelated Fey deity.



My message was more of a sigh over general style of debate in recent days than reaction to you or Markus (That is why it wasn't a reply). Some of the theories look to me like somebody is desparately trying to use every item on every other to find a solution of an adventure game...
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 10 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2018 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000