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 Which Faerunian gods could go to Mulhorand easily
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sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Apr 2014 :  16:58:18  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
IF they bring back Mulhorand and its gods (which I hope happens), I'd love to see their pantheon voluntarily accept some of Faerun's deities. In particular, Siamorphe would seem a great supporting figure for their pantheon. Her viewpoint that nobility is a divine gift that is both a double-edged sword (i.e. you are given the power to lead, but you must do so responsibly) would seem to fit a reinvigorated Mulhorandi Pantheon where the divinely blooded nobility is leading the country, yet it values even the lives of slaves.

We know they've also taken in Mask as a god of thieves, but I think it would be interesting if they also brought on Leira being portrayed as Mask's lover, and portrayed her as a trickster goddess who aids their gods against their enemies using illusions.

It would be interesting if they accepted Gond as well, especially if he were portrayed as the designer of Thoth's ideas. They could build on the focus that long ago they were master engineers and they want to regain that mastery.

It would also be interesting if they accepted Lurue into their pantheon, especially if the entry comes along with say the redemption of a small herd of the Thayan black unicorns and the saving of a large number of griffins and/or pegasi. If this goddess were brought in by Bast in saving a bunch of tressyms or something, it would be a good introduction (the two goddesses might even share temples).

Finally, if they accepted Lurue, then Gwaeron Windstrom might also make the transition as well, serving possibly as an aide to Anhur and his military scouts AND to Isis and Osiris by protecting the crops from the vermin who would root through the fields if animal populations were allowed to swell out of control.

These are all deities that don't get much credit in the Faerunian pantheon, so their inclusion in the Mulhorandi pantheon would gain them a significant boost in worship base, without causing any major conflicts.

Now, I'm not saying these Mulhorandi should believe these were always their gods. I'm just saying that perhaps they recognize that there are indeed outside deities who might favor them besides those that their long ago ancestors worshipped.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

sleyvas
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Posted - 05 Apr 2014 :  17:22:07  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In fact, in thinking about Lurue, I think it would be a good possibility if say the Brotherhood of the Griffin took up residence in Thay's ancient enemy (Mulhorand), and they actually somewhat allied with the church of Lurue. Perhaps the legionnaires might enhance their troops with soldiers mounted on giant owls and giant eagles and lammasu. They might also have some contingents of asperii and pegasi and hippogriff riders that are kept well away from the horse-hungry griffins.

I'm also picturing a bunch of noble Lurue worshipping priests on patrol riding redeemed black unicorns alongside Horus-Re worshipping priests riding awakened dire lions raised by the church of Lurue.

There may even be some kind of thing with the church of Amauanator in Chessenta seeing Horus-Re instead of Lathander as the real god of the sun (or maybe they see all 3 as the same being). I can definitely see Amaunatori more willing to accept the ethos of Horus-Re over that of the softer Lathander. Thought of this due to the priestess of Amaunator from Chessenta who served along with Aoth's crew.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  02:29:24  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Without acquiescing to your premise/hope even a little bit... my opinions follow.

I'm going to assume a full replacement of the god-kings for this topic. I don't like the idea of an intrusion or partial replacement of the pantheon. Either Mulhorand is ruled by the god-kings (who are not the same as gods, dagnabbit!) or else there are no god-kings and Mulhorand is replaced by another nation with generic gods. I know I might be alone on this, but the Mulhorandi pantheon is an all or nothing thing for me.

Akadi & Istishia: As a culture they would reject Kossuth as the ally of Thay, and Grumbar's pure earth/rock is less appealing than Chauntea's blessing (agriculture). The wind brings moisture from the sea and carries seeds and facilitates life for all things. Water is more directly the giver of life.

Bane: Mulhorand is (in my view anyway) an extremely lawful society. This might be my campaign's bias, but my impression of the published Mulhorandi leadership is that the church of Horus-Re (which runs the country) is LN with a significant lean to LE rather than LG. In light of millennia of domination by priests, the Mulhorandi respect strong rulers and tolerate a surprising degree of oppression. At the very least, Bane would be a good replacement for Set. But in a larger sense Bane will find a home in Mulhorand if the door opens to the Faerunian pantheon... and the rest of the Realms should probably fear that possibility, because he will take Talos' place as the big baddie that a bunch of other gods report to... Velsharoon, Umberlee, Talos, Tiamat, Talona, Shar, Mask, Malar, Loviatar, Gargauth, Garagos, Cyric, Beshaba, and Auril all represent types/aspects of tyranny and strife and the reasons for fear and hatred, and they would therefore all be tools of Bane. It doesn't change the way things work on a metaphysical level, of course, but it does mean that just about everyone who worships an evil god in Mulhorand will follow the will of Bane above all. Mulhorand's understanding of Bane's omnipotence would then spread across the South and around the Realms. And the church of Bane wants to rumble.

Chauntea: Mulhorand is a breadbasket country. The churches of Geb and Hathor would readily adapt to her.

Deneir/Oghma: Mulhorand would blend the two, as a suitable replacement for Thoth.

Eldath: Very similar (in my mind anyway) to Isis. Istishia would likely be subsumed.

Finder: An interesting partial replacement for Osiris, as his portfolio includes the circle of life... er, cycle of life. Having Deneir/Oghma, Mulhorand wouldn't spare Finder any homage for the artistic side of his nature.

Gond: I'm pretty sure Gond would have a cult in Mulhorand, if the god-kings were replaced. They would regard him as a long-lost Imaskari artificer.

Helm: An obvious choice for temple guards and military leaders; vastly more appropriate than Torm or Tempus, at least in this particular role. Holy wars would be waged back and forth by the church of Helm (defense-oriented) and the church of Bane (offense-oriented). Tempus is completely irrelevant in Mulhorand, where nobody fights just for the sake of fighting... bloodshed without a binding cause is uncivilized insanity.

Ilmater: The philosophically aware fatalists among the population --who understand the factors which give rise to the church of Bane-- might adopt Ilmater.

Kelemvor: Partial replacement for Osiris.

Lathander (not Amaunator): This guy has the potential for a large following pretty much everywhere. Cue jealous QQ by most other gods in the pantheon.

Lliira: The next best thing to Bast, assuming that Sharess disappears along with Bast.

I'm not really with you on Lurue... not a bad image at all, just not the direction I would go. Lurue and unicorns have been consistently described as a northwest Faerun occurrence. I do like the redeemed black unicorn idea, but I would put them in Aglarond. Just me.

Red Knight: There's potential here, but her following would likely get divided/subsumed or at least overshadowed by the churches of Helm and Bane.

Savras: Possibly brought back as an aspect of Mystra, in preference over Azuth. Dunno.

Selune: Mulhorand is historically more interested in the sun than the moon. The moon was more Unther's thing. Still, Selune is undeniably awesome, and the Faerunian pantheon lacks a strong sun power -- ignoring Amaunator, who I hate... although I must admit (seeing that he's callous and heavy-handed) he's a shoe-in to replace Horus-Re. If they take Amaunator, they'll continue to leave the moon to Unther. If we can leave Amaunator behind us where he belongs, then they might join Unther in adopting Selune.

Shar, I predict, is only interesting if Amaunator is adopted. Unlike Horus-Re, Amaunator has a foil, and just like Tiamat becoming the chief religion of Unther because Gilgeam was such a jerk, the social evil perpetrated by the church of Amaunator will do the work of Shar.

Shaundakul: I like this guy, but sadly he doesn't make much sense in Mulhorand's stay-at-home culture. He would instantly become appropriate, however, if Bane triumphed over Helm... so that raises the possibility of a weird alliance of LE and CN.

Siamorphe: I do agree with you here! Siamorphe is pretty awesome for Mulhorand, including a large sector of the church misunderstanding her portfolio/teachings to mean that authority is to be flaunted and enjoyed rather than earned and sacrificed-for.

Silvanus: Partial replacement for Isis, I guess. Mielikki and nature-related aspects of other deities would be subsumed by this church.

Sune: Would be popular among nobles.

Talos: Seen by many good/neutral Mulhorandi as preferable over Bane, for opposing the enemies of Mulhorand.

Tiamat: Untheric refugees will spread in all directions. Some say that they'd never settle in Mulhorand because of what Mulhorand's army did, but I say there are at least two sides to every coin. (1) The Mulhorandi army is not the uncivilized beast that Gilgeam's crumbling propaganda network made it out to be; there was no murder/rape/pillage in their wake. (2) Those atrocities did happen where Gilgeam's Lords and military had started to establish their own order. (3) Mulhorand stepping in after the death of Gilgeam saved Unther from the worst of the hysteria and barbarism, as well as from takeover by Thay. So some percentage of Untheric people will stay in Mulhorand, and they'll bring the church of Tiamat with them. As for the Mulhorandi... not so much interest in a multi-headed dragon goddess. Untherics are freeeeaks.

Torm: Seen as the god of "Do as I say." The church is probably supported by some nobles and bureaucrats, who want the lower classes to adopt him. He might get some lip service but for the most part it will not work. There are many better choices for the common folk.

Tymora: I like her, but the fact that adventurers will honor her would turn most common folk off to her. Her church will sponsor an organization of adventurers like the Harpers (but obviously smaller and more local in operation), who will do good deeds in her name and put a positive spin on her church, but she'll never entirely escape the fact that she's an adventurer's goddess.

Tyr: A partial replacement for Osiris. Priests of Tyr will come to dominate the field of judges and certain branches of the bureaucracy, but outside of that he'll be a "background" god; he'll be invoked by a lot of folks in certain circumstances because Mulhorand, like the rest of the Realms, is a polytheistic place.

Waukeen: Just as popular here as anywhere else.

YMMV, obviously.
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Gyor
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  04:26:04  Show Profile Send Gyor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mulhorand's Gods are apart of its identity.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  08:13:17  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup. Either we return to the pre-generic gods, or it's not Mulhorand anymore. So far, WotC's goal has been to turn it into wonderbread. Hopefully somebody who matters is sticking up for it in the new edition.
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sleyvas
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  12:33:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I very much want to see Mulhorand remain Mulhorand with its god-kings. In fact, I'd love to see the manifestations of the gods return. However, at the same time, I also see that these same god-kings may see some advantages in "inviting" outside influence into their pantheon, IF said outside influence will simply weaken the threat of the Faerunian influence and not interfere with their own influences (i.e. because those deities who come in are now neutral parties). Also, of the deities I mentioned, 3 of the 5 (Lurue, Gwaeron, and Siamorphe) prior to the time of troubles were primarily Toril-bound... so they were kind of like the god-kings in that they walked the world with mortals. So, perhaps to keep the flavor of Mulhorand, any that come over actually manifest an avatar to help lead their people... and perhaps they also bless a family by birthing unto them a child born of the gods. If this path were followed, Gwaeron and Siamorphe make relatively easy transitions, and doing so allows them to grow in places where they are overshadowed by other deities (i.e. Mielikki definitely outshines Gwaeron). Similarly, if the people of Lantan (who also disappeared with the spellplague) made contact with the people of Mulhorand while on Abeir, it may be that those two cultures may have united... and that might have reinvigorated the engineering skills of the Mulan people... and it may have been what brought Gond to them (for instance, some Lantan priests see the Mulan peoples enacting a ritual that brings their gods to them on Abeir in Avatar form... and the Lantan people attempt the same ritual and then Gond walks amongst them). This could be what makes the Mulans think they are superior to the other cultures... because they are so beloved of the gods that the gods themselves watch over them and even breed with them.... and it could remain as a driving principle between the two pantheons.

By doing this, we would make the returning Mulan peoples more technologically savvy through Gond (which they were during their prime), more inclined to believe that they have a divine RIGHT to rule through Siamorphe. Those two are the chief transfers that I see working. If we also make their returning culture more empire hungry, Shaundakul might fit the situation as well. I hadn't thought about Ilmater until you mentioned him, and he would seem to very much fit this culture. He could take on more of a role of a medicinal god, possibly subservient to Isis, and his manifestation might be constantly bothered by those who want him to magically cure them.... but his manifestation has to refuse and turn to natural remedies, because he is not a font of endless power. Thus, he may "oversee" a large hospital wherein he trains physicians in curing people.

Gwaeron and Leira are harder sells I admit. However, the same trick used by the Lantan people might actually work with Leira and the Nimbraii (i.e. they copy a ritual and cast it to pull an avatar of Leira to Abeir). Her involvement in the pantheon might be admittedly minor, because after being summoned, perhaps she chose to stay with the Nimbraii on their island, but the two cultures may have come to some kind of alliance. In fact, that might make for a better story, as well as having Lurue be expanded amongst the Nimbraii (and possibly Bast/Sharess as well, to give that island a very unusual fey influence). This would give this culture a very hedonistic lifestyle, always seeking wonders or using glamours to make life appear more wondrous.

Also, I can agree that it would make more sense for the Lurue group redeeming the black unicorns to come from say Rashemen or Aglarond. Perhaps that would be the better path for such growth by said deities (along with possibly worship of Nobanion spreading as well). Speaking of Nobanion.... I wonder if he and Bast/Sharess might ever produce "children".

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  13:14:52  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, my mind keeps coming back to this... so usurping my own thread once again and turning to a tangent. What happened with the Nimbraii? Could they end up pulling over certain lesser deities of Toril as "manifestations/avatars" to lead them kind of like the Mulhorandi did, but an entirely different look and feel.... and perhaps some of these deities be shared between the two groups on Abeir. Given that Nimbral seems to my mind to be a very fey place, I could definitely see Leira, Lurue, Bast/Sharess, but also lesser gods like Gwaeron, Valkur, Shaundakul, and Nobanion. If you have a group of Halruaans fleeing to Nimbral, and tie in that Mystra's realm didn't get destroyed, but rather transferred to Abeir..... Savras might also work. It would be a kind of odd pantheon(missing a sun and moon god... but then, who said Abeir had either of those), especially since it would have no evil villain (Leira being chaos incarnate, but not evil).... but then perhaps they were facing off against awakening primordials as the evil entities (of which, for all we know.... Nobanion might have been a primordial).

Hmmm, as an interesting twist... perhaps someone there enacted a ritual that sucked Velsharoon over to Abeir as well (or perhaps he was trying to find Mystra's realm and accidentally triggered being pulled over). The Mulhorandi definitely would not like him, but the Nimbraii could respect the mage for his audacity. He could be an anti-hero god for them, using despicable methods to hold back the primordials from his worshippers. He and Set might even come to some kind of alliance.

Anyway, just spitballing ideas for the hell of it.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Aldrick
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  14:40:31  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, they're just going to have to do something totally different with Mulhorand.

First, it's hard to allow Faerunian deities just to pop over there and still allow them to keep a similar vibe to old. Things were being setup for a Faerunian Pantheon vs Mulhorandi Pantheon conflict since the Time of Troubles. However, the later events in 3E and later 4E pretty much killed that path off.

Deities don't seem to have the ability to just pop into new regions of the world and claim worshipers. Otherwise, it's hard to allow the multiple pantheons that exist across the planet. We know what happens when pantheons meet; there is a lot of carnage and they merge. This is how the Faerunian Pantheon was created in the first place.

A lot of the deities listed (Gwaeron, Lurue, and Siamorphe) are very regional deities. They are minor even within the Faerunian Pantheon, and most people of the Realms proper haven't even heard of them before... it makes more sense for them to spread their faiths more among Faerun than to go to a radically different culture and try and spread themselves there. There are dangers to spreading in this manner... I'd look at Bhast's transformation into Sharess as an example of that. How much of the original Bhast is really left?

However, ignoring all of that... there is still the problem with the idea of the God-kings returning. First, the God-kings only existed in the first place as a result of the Gods Wall. Walking around in avatar form wasn't what the Mulhorandi deities really wanted to do - they just had no choice. After the Time of Troubles, Ao got rid of the Gods Wall created by the Imaskeri. The Mulhorandi God-kings willingly abandoned their avatars to return to the outer planes.

Now, at the start of 5E we don't know if the Mulhorandi deities even exist anymore, and if they do what forms they take. Assuming they didn't abandon their followers entirely... well, they've been on Abeir for over a hundred years. Can deities even grant spells to faithful on Abeir? Can they manifest there? Imagine the disruption the Mulhorandi faced at literally being shifted out of Toril and onto Abeir. Then imagine not hearing from their deities, and a hundred years passing... It's no telling how the Mulhorandi evolved.

For all intents and purposes, it appears as though the culture of Mulhorand is dead. If the Mulhorandi return from Abeir it's unlikely they look anything like those who went over there in the beginning.

Personally, I'd prefer them to do something similar to what I did in my Realms. I didn't have Mulhorand leave Toril; I just had Thay begin invading instead of having a civil war. A lot of other things were going on in the region as well, but I basically had things setup where Thay had a firm hold on Mulhorand, Murghom, and Semphar by the time the 4E timeline begins.

This felt like to me the best direction to go in, because not only does it establish more legitimacy for the Red Wizards as being a creditable threat, it is a natural conclusion to the Mulhorand vs Thay storyline. I had other things going on in Unther that kept Mulhorand from expanding westward and conquering those lands.

Ultimately, Thay will encompass all the lands once held by the Imaskeri save those occupied by Unther. Having such a vast land empire of course opens up Thay to lots of threats and problems, which makes the expansion and administration of their Empire insanely difficult.

I'd encourage the 5E design team to leave the Mulhorandi on Abeir, come up with a plan on what they want to do with the lands that once made up Unther and the new peoples in the region. I'd have them fix Thay, and then put them on the path toward doing the same thing I did in my Realms.

In my opinion, it's just the best way to handle the situation. You help establish the Red Wizards as a legitimate and dangerous group that is capable and competent enough to build and control an empire. On top of that you solve the Mulhorand problem. We could then make the old Mulhorandi cults as secret groups that worship their ancestral deities of old, and have their worship horribly oppressed by the Red Wizards.

That provides DM's with an awesome plot hook for a campaign, players who are members of these forbidden 'old cults' plotting and scheming rebellion against the Red Wizards.
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  17:47:59  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yea, the planar barrier was a cool idea back in 1990, from the angle of being a super-powered magical effect that put Imaskari wizards on a higher plane of magic use than more modern cultures. It should have been translated in 3e, once we had mythals and high magic as jumping-off points... but Lost Empires left it in its unbalanced primal state, and simply built on it as-is. I'm sure there were reasons for that, but unfortunately that decision left it a stumbling block in the way of good storytelling and revamping Mulhorand to appeal to new players. The fundamental nature of the god-kings and their role in Mulhorandi society, and at least certain parts of the history (including the planar barrier plus the battle with the gods) need to be massaged in order for Mulhorand to continue to exist in 5e. And WotC apparently sees that as more trouble than it's worth. Easier to just blow it up and put something new there. I have nothing remotely complimentary to say about that attitude, so I'll try to shut myself off there.

I think I can better see where you were going with your original idea, sleyvas. I still object to the melding of pantheons and deities, but I know that's probably just the grognard talking, or something. I prefer differentiation over unification. However, I don't see how (for example) Gwaeron being accepted into Mulhorand will keep Mielikki at bay... I think it would be just the opposite. When you bring in a lesser god, you're by definition bringing in everyone who's above that god on the "org chart." In some cases that wouldn't be an entirely bad thing; there are holes in the "portfolios" of the Mulhorandi pantheon. But I think it's a slippery slope, and that makes it less desirable. Better to awaken the god-kings (a very localized RSE) and have them take charge of their realm again.

@Aldrick: looks like we might be on the same page, though I can't justify Thay gaining dominance over Mulhorand in my own campaign. But I've figured out how to do the awakening and that's working out for me. The result is the same: a living empire that claims the territory once controlled by Imaskar. Thay doesn't become an issue for me, because their threat is eclipsed by something far worse. Several worse somethings, actually.

I do like the idea of showing minor deities some love, and giving them a place to shine and grow. I wouldn't choose Mulhorand as the place to do it, but I'd like to see it happen in various other places.

Edited by - xaeyruudh on 06 Apr 2014 17:50:50
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Aldrick
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Posted - 06 Apr 2014 :  22:52:16  Show Profile Send Aldrick a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Xaeyruudh -

I would definitely also like to see some minor deities get more love. Although, I think it has to be done appropriately.

For example, I could see Siamorphe's cult expanding to Cormyr. We could create an interesting opposition there, where old school conservative nobles turn to her worship. They and the cult could serve as interesting non-evil opposition to the Enlightenment direction Cormyr has been heading. More power to the nobility, less to the common people.

I also liked the suggestion of having Lurue's faith become active in Aglarond. In particular, active within the Yuirwood. She could become popular among the half-elves and elves of the wood, as well there could be interesting interactions with the old Yuirwood cults.

As for Mulhorand, I really believe there is no fixing it moving forward in the timeline. The death blow for the God-kings came when the Gods Wall was lifted by Ao. They left Toril, and according to 4E lore they've "disappeared" all together from Realmspace.

It's possible that they're chilling over in Abeir, potentially. However, it's equally likely that they just joined the long list of dead deities in the Realms.

Setting aside issues with the deities for a moment, there is the fact that 4E put New Imaskar where Mulhorand used to be. So if the Mulhorandi return with their deities... what happens to them? What about all the Dragonborn craziness next door in what used to be Unther?

It's difficult to determine exactly how to handle this situation in a way that is consistent with the already established lore. Even if we allow for the Mulhorandi deities to be alive, the Mulhorandi people to be on Abeir, for them to return to Toril... there would still be the issues of the Gods Wall no longer being there.

All of this conspires to put 5E designers in a no win situation. If they try and bring back Mulhorand through some contrived fashion, the people who loved the way it was in the past will hate it. It will be nothing more than a bastardization of what it once was. The people who are happy to see it gone, because they hated having Egypt-lite in their Realms would hate it because it's back... The only real solution is the neutral one, which is to expand Thay.

They could have a new Zulkirate form, establish a rebellion among the Mulan people in High Imaskar, and ultimately topple them as they move northward to conquer Thay. Szass Tam would ultimately be imprisoned on Thaymount.

I think that's the "least bad" solution. It also doesn't involve too much contrivance.
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Ateth Istarlin
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Posted - 14 Apr 2014 :  12:22:15  Show Profile Send Ateth Istarlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I want Mulhorand back again (I dont use 4th at all) - but I wouldnt mind some merging of the pantheons, so long as the Mulhorandi people give the Faerunian gods Mulhorandi names (perhaps Ilmater could be refered to as 'Imhotep' by the Mulhorandi?).

The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first.
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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 14 Apr 2014 :  16:56:06  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well one of my pet projects is fleshing out the old empires area. I havent done Mulhorand yet but i propose merging the Mulhorand and Untheric pantheons (i'll be bringing back a few supposedly dead gods - when is a god ever truly dead in FR) and that way keeping Mulhorand and Unther's identity and making it able to resist the Faerunian pantheon for another century or so.

The threads are called Unther 3.5 and Chessenta 3.5 at the moment but hopefully i will do a Mulhorand 3.5 as well. Most of the details are in Unther 3.5 alread and revolve around the rebalancing of Horus-Re and Anhur's churches within Mulhorandi society, as well as working in some intrigues to do with Set and the sarrukh.

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dazzlerdal
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Posted - 14 Apr 2014 :  16:56:44  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh and sorry about the thread hijack.

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sleyvas
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Posted - 14 Apr 2014 :  23:15:20  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ateth Istarlin

Personally, I want Mulhorand back again (I dont use 4th at all) - but I wouldnt mind some merging of the pantheons, so long as the Mulhorandi people give the Faerunian gods Mulhorandi names (perhaps Ilmater could be refered to as 'Imhotep' by the Mulhorandi?).



I'd specifically be leery of calling Ilmater Imhotep... being as Imhotep was a god of physicians and engineers. Granted, these are two things that the pantheon is missing, and I'm stating that I'd like to see Gond and Ilmater go over possibly as a result. However, I don't think the rest of the FR lovers would appreciate the confusion this would offer. Ilmater is a god of martyrs with a side of healer, but he's not particularly known as an engineer. Now, if they want to call Ilmater something like Ilmatep... ok, sure... but truthfully I think his name is fine. Siamorphe and Gond's too.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 15 Apr 2014 :  00:34:28  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Simply put, that aspect of his divinity doesn't need to be focused on there.

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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 15 Apr 2014 :  08:30:47  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True, the mulan will put their own spin on any/all deities. I like the idea of incoming gods needing to take on the names and attitudes of historic Mulhorandi/Untheric deities. The church of Tempus, if it got a foothold in Mulhorand, would need to become the church of Anhur within Mulhorand's borders. Any extra parts would probably be dropped... but it's possible that a well-loved new deity could add something new as "an aspect of the God-King which was long forgotten."
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 16 Apr 2014 :  02:31:39  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
-Minimizing "regional pantheons" is something that 3e did that I wish it didn't, and 4e went even further. It definitley is a pain in the ass, keeping track of who is who where, and what they represent, but it definitley makes a much more fulfilling and realistic world.

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Barastir
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Posted - 17 Apr 2014 :  12:30:15  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
(...) but it definitley makes a much more fulfilling and realistic world.


Does it? I can see both points of view as valid in a fantasy world: a setting with a few true gods and many ways they are seen/ perceived by mortals, and even heathen/ false priests with no clerical powers (like DragonLance), and settings with a lot of gods, product of many cultures. And even then, some are known by a lot of names, some are restricted to a few followers, and so on (as the 2e Realms). I think it depends on the taste of the gamers.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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xaeyruudh
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Posted - 17 Apr 2014 :  15:43:25  Show Profile  Visit xaeyruudh's Homepage Send xaeyruudh a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Either way, I think it's important that (1) there are many distinct cultures in a setting and (2) distinct cultures have distinct pantheons.

Distinct cultures meaning Mulhorand, the Tuigan, the Rashemi... not necessarily a culture per subrace, but that's one thing to look at.

And you definitely have a point Barastir (and others) -- the fact that one culture honors the Great God Gateway and another venerates Dell the Dread Doom doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't the same god... or that either of them is actually a god.
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MrHedgehog
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Posted - 17 Apr 2014 :  18:25:04  Show Profile  Visit MrHedgehog's Homepage Send MrHedgehog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I liked them simplifying the pantheon to one pantheon. If Ao dictated that there would be a God for each concept in his world why would there be regional deities? Many of the Mulhorandi Gods could reasonably be worshipped elsewhere (Such as Hathor who has no parallel)
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Irennan
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Posted - 17 Apr 2014 :  20:51:36  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why not? As far as I understand, WotC's new development trend with deities is: 'they are mysterious, you (even as reader) know nothing'.

That said you can't realistically expect to know what Ao (a 'god' which can be anything, being actually nothing more than one of the biggest deus ex machina ever released in the Realms) established, or what it decided for the realmsian pantheon and so on...

Furthermore, if things were as you describe, portfolios being very close or aspect of each other while belonging to different deities wouldn't be possible. For example: Sune -love and passion- Sharess -free love, lust, sensual fullfillment- Shall we say they are the same being, or have them battle to death just for this matter? They aren't the same deity, nor they are redundant.

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Edited by - Irennan on 17 Apr 2014 23:33:38
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Aldrick
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Broadening out the topic a bit...

I think a lot of people don't really understand how the Faerunian Pantheon came to be in the first place, and the larger implications.

The Faerunian Pantheon isn't a cultural pantheon like Mulhorand. It's a pantheon based entirely on geography. The deities of the Faerunian Pantheon once existed in numerous cultural pantheons, and the formation of the Faerunian Pantheon took place sometime after the fall of Netheril. It didn't happen over a few days, weeks, or months. It's an event that spanned centuries.

After the fall of Netheril the Lower Netherese spread outward as refugees, carrying with them their deities. Though, perhaps even more influential than the fall of Netheril was the fall of Jhaamdath, which took place about a hundred years after Netheril's fall. Those who are Chondathan can trace their ancestry back to Jhaamdath, and they spread outward in three waves.

The first wave after the fall of Jhaamdath took them primarily too Impiltur, Thesk, and the Vast, and they settled much of the north central Inner Sea region.

The second wave took place from Impiltur where they began migrating westward to settle the Dalelands (around 1 DR), and later Cormyr (around 26 DR).

The third wave occurred around 380 DR when settlers from Chondath began to establish colonies that would eventually become Sembia. By 659 DR the Chondathans had also begun to extend their influence from Tethyr to the Savage Frontier.

By the time you reach modern times Chondathan culture and language dominated much of central and western Faerun. Hell, the basis for the common tongue and it's alphabet is Thorass, which is a trade tongue that arose from interactions between Jhaamdath and the Old Kingdoms of Calimshan.

The Dawn Cataclysm took place sometime between -39 DR and 130 DR, and it likely took place over a number of years. I don't think it's coincidental that it took place roughly 200 years after the fall of Jhaamdath - roughly during the second wave of Chondathan migration.

It's during this period that numerous cultures are coming into contact with one another. There is a lot of upheaval. This is also around the time that Tempus and Talos are likely becoming ascendant, and the Faerunian Pantheon as we see it today is first starting to take it's shape.

Both Tempus and Talos, for example, are believed to be Talfiric deities - the humans that inhabited the Western Heartlands. This is the region where a lot of Netherese refugees fled, and this brought the faiths of Tempus and Targus (Garagos) into conflict. The story around Talos is more theologically murky, but Kozah was the name of the Netherese deity that held similar portfolios. It is believed that Kozah defeated Talos, and assumed his identity. Talos, like Tempus, was most likely a Talfiric deity.

Why is all of this important to this discussion? Because it shows clearly what happens when different cultures come into contact with one another. Their pantheons begin to merge together. Their deities are drawn into conflict, and they are either destroyed, subsumed, or merged together. Portfolios have a tendency to change rapidly as well. If you look at the Netherese Deities, and their portfolios during the time of Netheril, you'd see a massive shift in them and you'll find many other deities in the Faerunian Pantheon that hold their former portfolios.

Bringing this back to the discussion we're having here, prior to 4th Edition, we were about to see this very situation play out in real time between the Faerunian and Mulhorandi Pantheon. This was going to be the consequence of the Gods Wall being removed, and Mulhorand being ruled by a mortal once again. After the death of Gilgeam, the Mulhorandi cults were expanding westward into Unther and so were the Faerunian cults - bringing them into contact with each other.

We have to assume that, even if the Mulhorandi Pantheon were to return, that their days would be numbered. By now, the Faerunian deities have most certainly extended their influence further eastward, and likely have reached right into the heart of Mulhorand's former territory.

By having the Mulhorandi deities return, it would setup a conflict that was virtually certain not to end well in the Mulhorandi deities favor. The best they could hope for is for one or two of them to survive and be subsumed into the Faerunian Pantheon - perhaps even in a diminished capacity with fewer portfolios.

All of this is a result of previously established canon that existed prior to 4E - the Mulhorandi deities were already on the way out.

Fast forward several thousand years or more into the future, and it's likely all of Toril will have a single pantheon. Even the racial pantheons will likely have merged into a single world spanning pantheon.

Edited by - Aldrick on 18 Apr 2014 00:05:15
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sleyvas
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Don't forget that roughly around the same time of the fall of Netheril and Jhaamdath, there was also the fall of two great Eastern Empires as well (Narfell and Raumathar). Exactly which deities were in their pantheons and got spread as a result also falls into question (although, I imagine the 4 elemental lords definitely spread from there).

On the Mulhorandi gods being on their way out, it depends. IF while they were on Abeir the gods came to their worshippers again in some kind of manifestation form, then they get swapped back to Toril.... it may be that this time they decide to stay. After all, previously Horus-Re had no real chance against Lathander.... but if many eastern Amaunatori decide that Horus-Re is Amaunator and not Lathander after the spellplague... they may gain worshippers outside the Mulan people. Similarly, with Talos gone for a hundred years, some may come to think that Anhur/Ramman is the god of thunder and lightning and not Auril. Of course, if Talos returns, he may gain worshippers in places that he was previously strong.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Karsus
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Posted - 18 Apr 2014 :  17:43:44  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
(...) but it definitley makes a much more fulfilling and realistic world.


Does it? I can see both points of view as valid in a fantasy world: a setting with a few true gods and many ways they are seen/ perceived by mortals, and even heathen/ false priests with no clerical powers (like DragonLance), and settings with a lot of gods, product of many cultures. And even then, some are known by a lot of names, some are restricted to a few followers, and so on (as the 2e Realms). I think it depends on the taste of the gamers.


-That wasn't what I was saying. Whether or not the divine entities are the same or not, or are perceived as being the same things or being different is kind of irrelevant.
-Certain deities that exist at the very least in name only (whether or not they are simply just guises of other divine entities is a whole separate issue) are more commonly worshiped in certain areas. Rather than see a list of "These are the deities worshiped by Faerunian Humans", I prefer more regional specific lists. We know that some deities are more commonly worshiped among certain ethnic groups, or certain regions. I think it'd make more sense to break down the lists into lists like that, rather than one giant one.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Barastir
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Posted - 18 Apr 2014 :  20:47:44  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-That wasn't what I was saying. Whether or not the divine entities are the same or not, or are perceived as being the same things or being different is kind of irrelevant.
(...)
Rather than see a list of "These are the deities worshiped by Faerunian Humans", I prefer more regional specific lists.
(...)

Sorry, I truly misunderstood your previous post. And I totally agree with this point of view, I even started doing it by myself as I saw that in the region I DM there were no temples to all of the Gods of the Faerūnian pantheon (not limiting by pantheon only, but also by region. So, the only contact a priest would have with a god from other regions, especially for those who are not be in adjacent areas, would be from tales or fom the occasional - and maybe very rare - missionary priest (more common, of course, in great centers like Waterdeep or Baldur's Gate, for example).

EDIT: But I generally think that this makes my job as a DM easier, not harder.

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 18 Apr 2014 20:50:42
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sleyvas
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Posted - 19 Apr 2014 :  13:14:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
(...) but it definitley makes a much more fulfilling and realistic world.


Does it? I can see both points of view as valid in a fantasy world: a setting with a few true gods and many ways they are seen/ perceived by mortals, and even heathen/ false priests with no clerical powers (like DragonLance), and settings with a lot of gods, product of many cultures. And even then, some are known by a lot of names, some are restricted to a few followers, and so on (as the 2e Realms). I think it depends on the taste of the gamers.


-That wasn't what I was saying. Whether or not the divine entities are the same or not, or are perceived as being the same things or being different is kind of irrelevant.
-Certain deities that exist at the very least in name only (whether or not they are simply just guises of other divine entities is a whole separate issue) are more commonly worshiped in certain areas. Rather than see a list of "These are the deities worshiped by Faerunian Humans", I prefer more regional specific lists. We know that some deities are more commonly worshiped among certain ethnic groups, or certain regions. I think it'd make more sense to break down the lists into lists like that, rather than one giant one.



I'd like to see something along these lines done as well, but truthfully, with as many churches as I see in my local town, I'd actually be surprised if there wouldn't be a temple, shrine, etc... to nearly all of the benevolent deities of the realms within the equivalent of one of our counties (and even some of the non-benevolent). I'd bet a lot of the smaller deities at least have shrines within other temples (i.e. Gwaeron having a shrine in Mielikki's temple, Lurue in temples of Mystra and/or Selune, the red knight in Tempus', and we might find things like a traveler's/merchant's temple having Waukeen, Shaundakul, and Valkur all together). In sharing their temple space, they also share the burden of protecting the temple space, which helps both sides.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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