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 Vhaeraun truly dead or simply merged?
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Zulkir of Evocation
Acolyte

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2014 :  02:31:55  Show Profile Send Zulkir of Evocation a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Like the title states, I'm not entirely sure that Vhaeraun died when he invaded Eilistraee's domain. In the Lady Penitent series, Karas and Valdar die. Then the "Masked Lady/Lord" greets them on the Fugue Plane.
"'Masked Lord,' Karas asked 'is it you?'
A feminine voice rustled the mask.
'Masked... Lady?' he ventured.
The chuckle deepened, became male.
Hands moved to the blackness that was the deity's mask. Fingers gripped its edges. Karas tensed, and felt the eager anticipation of the awareness that was Valdar.
The mask lifted.
Karas wept.
So did Valdar - and as he did, Karas saw into the other Nightshadow's heart.
The emotions that had prompted their tears were as different as moonlight and shadow." (page 203-204)

Could Vhaeraun and Eilistraee merged their portfolios to represent a more concentrated attack on Lolth. It's highly unlikely, but it is possible that their Father, Corellon Larethian, asked them to merge. Later in the book, it stated that Vhaeraun had "taught" Eilistraee the moves at the sava board. Whether it was because Eilistraee killed him and then consumed his intelligence or because he willingly taught her.

My theory: Valdar and Karas were weeping for two different reasons. Karas was weeping because he saw the merged faces of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee and it finally brought him piece to know the answer. Valdar was weeping because he thought that Vhaeraun would never ally with Eilistraee and was simply doing it to backstab her but finally realized his deity had merged. This is only because Valdar intoned a prayer addressed to the "Masked Lord" and it was heard and healing energies were sent.

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2739 Posts

Posted - 25 Mar 2014 :  11:15:45  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that they intentionally merged in order to face Lolth. Some kind of temporary alliance.

That idea was also floating around at WotC a couple years ago, as explained here:

http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3512226#523494601.

It was edited out -and Idk why- maybe they had other plans with the Sundering...

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Edited by - Irennan on 25 Mar 2014 11:17:28
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1589 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  12:17:03  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm sure they're coming back as full deities in 5e, we just haven't heard the story yet. In my homebrew I'm bringing back Zinzereena as the Masked Lady (supported by both E and V). That idea was someone else's (sleyvas' I think) and I'm trying to find the link for you now.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2739 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  12:24:38  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the link.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18852&SearchTerms=Masked,Lady

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30431 Posts

Posted - 18 Jun 2014 :  13:02:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe Vhaeraun was only mostly dead.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2059 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2014 :  20:48:18  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are hints in the Adversary that they are separate again, at least that was my impression, but Vhaeraun's return is still only hinted at, and we don't know whether it is as the Masked Lady or not.

In Lady Penitent, it also suggested that their realms had merged (the souls of V's faithful were singing with E's, not to mention the scene where the Masked Lady greets Karas and Valdar), so if they are separate entities again, it will be interesting to see how they work out their respective realms.

Sweet water and light laughter

Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 25 Jun 2014 20:50:23
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2739 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2014 :  21:19:29  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
TBH, I hope that they start working together and keep their realms united, if those actually merged.


They lead two different aspects of the battle for the freedom of the drow, but compliment each other quite well.

Vhaeraun does that through subterfuge and rebellion, showing to the drow the wakness of the dogma that holds them back, encouraging them to stop all the infighting and work together to conquer back what they lost in the past.

Eilistraee does that by loving her people, showing to the drow the beauty and joy of life that they were denied, fighting for them to be free to choose their future, to express and fulfill themselves. She tries to make a people out of them, united as they once were.

However both of them want the drow to create their place in the world and stop killing each other (well Vhaeraun wants more, but he can be reasonable. For example he disocurages hostilities with elves, even if mostly out of practical interest). Their different approaches don't justify being enemies in my eyes.

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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2059 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2014 :  21:25:08  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree

Sweet water and light laughter
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4309 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2014 :  22:00:07  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing to remember, Vhaeraun wants all others races servant to Drow/Elf above this means humans, dwarfs and so on. This is something his sister never advocated,. Maybe the two could work together, however the only way I could see them working together would be to get rid of Mother, after that I can only see the siblings fighting each other for the purpose and future of the Drow.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2739 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2014 :  22:34:01  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

One thing to remember, Vhaeraun wants all others races servant to Drow/Elf above this means humans, dwarfs and so on. This is something his sister never advocated,. Maybe the two could work together, however the only way I could see them working together would be to get rid of Mother, after that I can only see the siblings fighting each other for the purpose and future of the Drow.



I know. Eilistraee actually wants the drow to coexist and cooperate with other races for a better world, as the path she's forging is open to all creatures.

I see them 'bickering' over many things, including 'getting rid of mother'. Killing her does nothing for Eilistraee's goal, as it won't do anything to change drow's minds (which is what she aims to achieve), while only causng a huge bloodbath, at the end of which the dark elves would turn to demon worship or other deities -like Vhaeraun- rather than Eilistraee, because their mindset would still be the same (in fact I'm still wondering why they had her do the stupid crusade thingy in WotSQ, instad of having her followers actually trying to establish a presence in the then churned drow cities, helping drow in need and getting them out of there. Maybe even helping Maerimydra).

However I totally see the siblings fighting together to open drow's eyes to different paths, to get them to take a stand and make their choices. They have a long way to go to achieve it, so their collaboration would probably last centuries. This could even get them closer or smooth their edges.

Even assuming a positive outcome and free dark elves, the choice about what do with their relations with other races would be up to mortals (since they would no longer be brainwashed/indoctrinated), not Eilistraee neither Vhaeraun. Their followers would likely spread their ideas on the matter, maybe factions with different ideas will split up and go their own way, maybe they'll fight each other (like it happened in the Americal Civil War, as far as slavery is concerned). However I highly doubt that after the ordeal with Lolth, the drow would want to go through even more infighting, they would most likely want to focus on rebuilding and growing as a people again, gaining their former splendor (as Vhaeraun wishes).

As 'evil' as Vhaeraun can be, he too cares about the drow and would likely understand that reducing the other races into slavery would cost a heavy price in drow lives and would be an unrealistic expectation, since they are not in the primitive state as they were during the age of Ilythiir. Not to mention that such a war would be something that drow who agree with Eilistraee's ideals would stay away from, or even oppose, leaving the 'racist' faction with scarce resources to accomplish what they wish.
I totally pictures Vhaerunites keeping making slaves out of prisoners, but -you know- that wouldn't be different from what humans or other elves do.

So, even after the drow are free, I hardly see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun engaging in yet another fratricide war.

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Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jun 2014 22:49:56
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The Masked Mage
Master of Realmslore

USA
1362 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2014 :  15:10:16  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Maybe Vhaeraun was only mostly dead.





I've got miracle max on speed dial!
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