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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 08:43:59
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When I first read these words, I just blew them off as "adding mystery to things". However, as we've seen some of this becomes true. So, this leads me to some interesting questions.... Like was Toril actually originally flat? Did Asgorath/Asgoroth actually bend Toril into a sphere (it was called "the WorldShaper"? This would explain the changing of the positions of the stars as seen by the Sarrukh. It could also explain Merrourobouros suddenly separating out and drifting apart (as can plate tectonics, but this would be a much faster shifting if the whole world got bent and thereby cracks formed in Merrourobouros).
So, we also know that there were two moons orbiting Toril (Selune and Zotha). However, HOW they orbited Toril is unknown (especially if the world was flat). What if Selune orbited Toril in an East/West axis, and Zotha did North/South? In order to not hit one another, perhaps the smaller Zotha followed a lower trajectory, and thus whenever the world was reshaped... Zotha came in and smashed Toril (causing the Tearfall) and was thus destroyed.
So, this leads me to wonder... when Ao, "twinned" the world, did he make Abeir Flat like the original Toril or round like the new? From
Also, just because I'd seen so many people speculate that the tearfall was when Selune's tears formed.... I'd assumed this was linked (as possibly did the dragon writing the lore shown below from GHotR, since he equates the "glancing blow on the moon" to the forming of an "inland sea".... though possibly there was another inland sea formed at this event). However, the lore about the "hill of seven lost gods" from GHotR would indicate that the tears didn't come about until at the end of the Reign of Dragons and involved the elves, and most believe that it was an attempt by the dragons to destroy the King Killer Star that missed (the goddess of the moon apparently moving to protect her charges?).
So, was that hurling of power that hit the moon the forming of Mystryl? It wouldn't seem to fit, since someone else did the hurling and not Selune, and there isn't any definite sign of Shar in it. However, someone may be able to put together some pieces there (i.e. maybe Selune used her power to deflect the magic back at Toril, requiring her to absorb the magic and fracture herself (thus, tearing a portion of herself out to form the tears).) Shar may have been behind this attack (since it was attacking an astronomical object... and thus attacking Selune), and thus the return attack may have somehow "hit" Shar. Maybe the return magic hit some kind of divine artifact of Shar's (maybe a giant disintegration ray item made of shadow weave energy <for lack of a better term>, and the return magic was twisted into weave energy by Selune?).
From FOR1 Draconomicon
"...The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
#147;And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World. Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.
Red, they were, red that would later depart from its purity But here before the beginning of Time, their red was the pure red of the shattered Crystal Sun. They spread their wings and took to the skies, circling around the still, cold form of Asgorath. One after another, score upon score, they bent their breath against the body of Asgorath, and the skies rang with their lamentations. Only one of the Spawn of Asgorath withheld his breath. Instead, he pulled a shard of the Crystal Sun from the flesh of Asgorath, and used it to draw blood from his own flesh, and this blood fell upon the face of the World.
#147;As before, there was movement where the blood fell, but the creatures that came forth from this blood were not of the pure red. Colored like the products of the World
they were, like the unloving metals. And the Renegade raised his voice, and his voice was a trumpet: '#145;I too have Created.#146;'
#147;The form of Asgorath began to stir, as the Renegade knew it must. The Renegade spread his wings and flew, and the Spawn of the Renegade followed him into the
farthest reaches of the world.#148;"
Also this from GHotR
"In the desperate hope that another of Asgorath’s children might chance upon my remains and seek what I have found, I now reveal my most precious piece of knowledge: The Hills of the Seven Lost Gods are not what they first seem. Each of the seven rings of standing stones dates back to the last days of the Reign of Dragons, when the elder wyrms sought to reverse what the elves had wrought. My ancestors
tried to focus the Weave into a weapon of unparalleled might that could shatter the Drifting Stars into clouds of rubble in the heavens above. But they scored only a glancing blow on the moon that circles our world, leaving only a string of tears and an inland sea to mark their failure. Now reason is once again undone by rage, and all that dragons have wrought crumbles slowly into dust.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 09:50:36
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This may return us to the question of which part of "Abeir-Toril" means "cradle" and which "life".  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 12:47:46
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Or it could all be allegory and fiction.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 15:11:46
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In 2011 I posted this...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And since I am studying maps again ATM, I noticed that the Realms (when viewed all together looks a lot like Earth (the Laurasian continent) during the Triassic period - Yal Tengri/the Great Ice Sea is a really good fit.
<snip>
And weirdly, that puts Shadowdale right around Ed's house.
To which THO replied...
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Heh. So it does...so it does. 
love,
THO
Apparently, both Earth and Toril had similar 'layouts' at points in their history - the 'modern' map of Toril looks a bit like our Pangea.
Thats why I cling to my theory that it wasn't just Abeir and Toril that were created during the Godwar. Picture looking into a full-length mirror at yourself - you see your reflection perfectly. Now shatter the mirror into thousands of small pieces. As you look down at those pieces on the floor, what you see is thousands of distorted images of yourself. That's kind of how I picture the multiverse getting created - it was more of a 'shattering' then a 'Sundering'.
And that the 'First World' was just one impossibly vast, flat plane (as all other planes are). So yeah... I think Abeir-Toril was flat... but I think it goes way beyond that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2014 15:12:54 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 21:08:47
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Right finally got back to my pc and my books so I can read this.
Can't believe I missed it on the very first page.
If you remove the rhetoric (the world is flat repeated twice and sounds just like an entry to a story).
So looking at it paragraph by paragraph
quote:
The The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
Now above it sounds more like Zotha is was a person. When I first read the start of I imagined the crystal sun as a giant red crystal egg/orb that was the home of Asgoroth. It is possible that Zotha whatever Zotha was, lived in the crystal sun and Asgoroth came and killed him (cast him down typically being used to refer to killing someone and casting him down into the hells).
The crystal sun of Zotha which was also referred to as an ice moon (probably because of surface conditions, or maybe Asgoroth moved the sun to be on the other side of Toril so the sun never reached it and it became an ice moon).
quote:
#147;And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World.
Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.
Why have multiple celestial bodies destroyed by the same being to bring about one event (i.e. the creation of the Inner Sea and the birth of dragonkind upon the world).
The batrachi made a bargain with Asgorath somehow and he/she hurled the ice moon/crystal sun at Toril (according to GHoTR). How do you move a moon, even for a primordial being it would require an enormous amount of energy. So blast it with your breath weapon and the force should knock it out of orbit and into the planet.
So Asgorath breathes on the crystal sun and the outer shell shatters into fragments of crystal that shred his/her body (killing Asgorath from the sounds of it). The icy core slams into Toril and forms the inner sea and the shards of it's outer shell slowly fall from orbit.
The shards are coated in Asgorath's blood and form into dragon like creatures when they hit Toril.
The other paragraphs again are just rhetoric of a story (which thankfully I seem to have used mostly in my dragon redux thread I just need to mention a crystal shard).
I do like the mention of the dragons using the ring of the seven lost gods (probably each containing a crystal shard that never formed into a dragon creature) and tried to steer an orbiting object into the path of the King Killer Star in an attempt to smash the comet to bits.
After all Asgorath was some kind of space dwelling primordial and it seems possible that these last traces (feel free to use the word vestige if you like that word) of Asgorath had a measure of power over space objects (like moons etc).
Only it didn't quite work, they managed to steer an asteroid or maybe even the moon of Selune into the path of the King Killer Star. Maybe the object they tried to move was Asgorath's corpse itself(still orbiting Toril), but perhaps the elves anticipated this event and gave the star a glimmer of sentience, so it changed its trajectory and avoided the trap but skimmed the surface of the moon Selune creating the tears of selune and one large piece of debris that slammed into Toril to form the Moonsea (also known as the Sea of Dragons).
That way the Moonsea could be named because the dragons created it and or because they chose to live there in ancient times. Or it could be named the Moonsea because a piece of a moon smashed into the ground to form the sea. I would probably have the sea of dragons existing in a smaller form before the asteroid hit it and made it bigger and deeper.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2014 : 21:27:07
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You know what would be funny? If Abeir-Toril was a flat world, and Abeir was the underside of the 'disc'. That would make for a pretty interesting setting.
But we have lore to the contrary, so obviously it isn't flat.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Mar 2014 21:28:29 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2014 : 00:52:48
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Right finally got back to my pc and my books so I can read this.
Can't believe I missed it on the very first page.
If you remove the rhetoric (the world is flat repeated twice and sounds just like an entry to a story).
So looking at it paragraph by paragraph
quote:
The The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good.
Now above it sounds more like Zotha is was a person. When I first read the start of I imagined the crystal sun as a giant red crystal egg/orb that was the home of Asgoroth. It is possible that Zotha whatever Zotha was, lived in the crystal sun and Asgoroth came and killed him (cast him down typically being used to refer to killing someone and casting him down into the hells).
The crystal sun of Zotha which was also referred to as an ice moon (probably because of surface conditions, or maybe Asgoroth moved the sun to be on the other side of Toril so the sun never reached it and it became an ice moon).
quote:
#147;And so Asgorath bent her form around the Crystal Sun, and touched her breath to it. And the Crystal Sun burst into fragments that pierced the flesh of Asgorath, and her blood fell on the World.
Where the drops fell, the Powers of the World and the Powers of the Crystal Sun came together, and the Spawn of Asgorath came forth upon the face of the World.
Why have multiple celestial bodies destroyed by the same being to bring about one event (i.e. the creation of the Inner Sea and the birth of dragonkind upon the world).
The batrachi made a bargain with Asgorath somehow and he/she hurled the ice moon/crystal sun at Toril (according to GHoTR). How do you move a moon, even for a primordial being it would require an enormous amount of energy. So blast it with your breath weapon and the force should knock it out of orbit and into the planet.
So Asgorath breathes on the crystal sun and the outer shell shatters into fragments of crystal that shred his/her body (killing Asgorath from the sounds of it). The icy core slams into Toril and forms the inner sea and the shards of it's outer shell slowly fall from orbit.
The shards are coated in Asgorath's blood and form into dragon like creatures when they hit Toril.
The other paragraphs again are just rhetoric of a story (which thankfully I seem to have used mostly in my dragon redux thread I just need to mention a crystal shard).
I do like the mention of the dragons using the ring of the seven lost gods (probably each containing a crystal shard that never formed into a dragon creature) and tried to steer an orbiting object into the path of the King Killer Star in an attempt to smash the comet to bits.
After all Asgorath was some kind of space dwelling primordial and it seems possible that these last traces (feel free to use the word vestige if you like that word) of Asgorath had a measure of power over space objects (like moons etc).
Only it didn't quite work, they managed to steer an asteroid or maybe even the moon of Selune into the path of the King Killer Star. Maybe the object they tried to move was Asgorath's corpse itself(still orbiting Toril), but perhaps the elves anticipated this event and gave the star a glimmer of sentience, so it changed its trajectory and avoided the trap but skimmed the surface of the moon Selune creating the tears of selune and one large piece of debris that slammed into Toril to form the Moonsea (also known as the Sea of Dragons).
That way the Moonsea could be named because the dragons created it and or because they chose to live there in ancient times. Or it could be named the Moonsea because a piece of a moon smashed into the ground to form the sea. I would probably have the sea of dragons existing in a smaller form before the asteroid hit it and made it bigger and deeper.
Zotha was the second moon, but that's non-canon, as its from Brian R. James' unofficial version of the GHotR. There is canon confirmation that there were 2 moons previously in the 4e FR campaign setting. When the second moon came about, it doesn't state... and it may have always been there. However, Zotha's moon seems to have been primarily ice and some rock. Because it references it as a "him", I assume that it was related to a male deity.
Because of the way things were worded in the dragon story, I get the idea that the world was flat and that Asgorath/Asgoroth reshaped it prior to its death (thus earning the moniker, "the worldshaper"). It also states that he cast down Zotha before turning on the crystal sun (the sun which was created by Zotha and NOT Selune, so this isn't the original sun that disappeared before the shadow epoch at the hands of the Night Serpent). So, I'm kind of imagining Zotha showing up to aid the gods during the shadow epoch, creating a new sun, and then a couple millennia during the Days of Thunder the Batrachi apparently release Asgorath/Asgoroth.... and a second sun is destroyed, but in the twinning of the world, perhaps this is undone... or perhaps the old sun is returned from wherever the night serpent had sent it....
I was wondering though what happened with Asgorath/Asgoroth's corpse (if it was dead)... After all, it would seem like right after this is when Ao twinned the world. Did he shunt Asgorath's body to Abeir or leave it in Toril?
I wouldn't put any linkage of Asgorath/Asgoroth to the forming of the Tears of Selune. Again, these appear to be 2 separate instance separated by about 4 thousand years. The first was tearfall, and involved Batrachi releasing primordials, possibly reshaping the world, the definite destruction of Toril's second moon, and the possible destruction of the sun, and the twinning of Abeir and Toril, and the start of the dragon empires. The second was some dragons being pissed at the elves and going to the hill of the seven lost gods to fire EITHER some destructo ray OR some chronomancy ray that hits Selune. I state a chronomancy ray because it hit Selune, but the tears of Selune don't show up until roughly -3450 DR (so possibly the dragons figured they could just shift the King Killer Star forward in time a few dozen millennia)
From 4e FR campaign setting, pg 86
The Inner Sea was once four separate bodies of water until the batrachi realm of Kolophoon was devastated nearly 33,000 years ago. Scholars generally hold that a chunk of Toril’s second moon struck Faerûn at that time.
The tears of Selune APPEARED 4800 years ago (roughly) according to the realmspace supplement, page 29. Note that I say appeared, because for all I know they are a result of the aforementioned attempt by the dragons at the hill of the seven lost gods, and maybe they were hidden for years under the cloaking illusion that covers the moon, until something happened 4800 years ago (roughly -3450 DR).
"The Tears of Selune one day just appeared, apparently from nowhere. The different cultures of Toril have their own versions of what happened.
Written in the Shou Lung scrolls of history, over 4800 years back, an astronomer looking up toward Selune, mapping its surface, reported seeing many objects suddenly "pop" into existence. Tremendous tidal waves on all of Toril's oceans commenced.
Several hours later, the same astronomer, Tu Pi Chei, reported his findings to the emperor's men. The emperor, awakened from his sleep, was very interested in this matter, and went out the next night to study the phenomenon with Tu Pi. After seeing that, indeed, a cluster of lights had appeared to the right of the moon, he had the 20 best astrologers in the country deduce its meaning."
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2014 : 04:16:41
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| Maybe Ao used Asgorath's body to make Aebir. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2014 : 22:03:55
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Hmm, I recall seeing an ancient hand-drawn map of Toril, by Ed I think, which very roughly approximated the landmasses of his world ... including then-unnamed Maztica, Osse, and other far-flung continental masses.
We also have the Atlas of the Realms and FRIA, which both depict Toril as a globe and are likely canon - at least, if they‘re not truly canon they‘re the next best thing, since these sources have served as references for so many Realms authors.
I think ye olde Grey Box actually described day/night timezones in an indirect manner, certainly the Kara-Tur/Hordelands/Shou/Zakhara sourcebooks acknowledged this global phenomenon ... and Spelljammer lore categorically summarizes Toril as a spherical world.
I‘m going with round. Flat isn‘t impossible, but it‘s contraindicated by too many canon sources. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 00:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, I recall seeing an ancient hand-drawn map of Toril, by Ed I think, which very roughly approximated the landmasses of his world ... including then-unnamed Maztica, Osse, and other far-flung continental masses.
We also have the Atlas of the Realms and FRIA, which both depict Toril as a globe and are likely canon - at least, if they‘re not truly canon they‘re the next best thing, since these sources have served as references for so many Realms authors.
I think ye olde Grey Box actually described day/night timezones in an indirect manner, certainly the Kara-Tur/Hordelands/Shou/Zakhara sourcebooks acknowledged this global phenomenon ... and Spelljammer lore categorically summarizes Toril as a spherical world.
I‘m going with round. Flat isn‘t impossible, but it‘s contraindicated by too many canon sources.
Yes, but all those resources would be NOW. I have no doubt that Toril is round now. I also have no doubt that there IS another flat world within Realmspace (the planet H'Catha and farthest from the sun is a flat water world with a mountain at its center). The statement in the lore was that the world WAS flat. In the same document, its talking about Asgorath "the worldshaper". So, way back long ago, say prior to the tearfall, the world may have been flat then, and I assume that the "worldshaper" reshaped the world. Of course, this all could be just nuance.... but it could easily explain some things, if you can get past the idea that a being actually had the ability to literally reshape continents. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 00:48:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Maybe Ao used Asgorath's body to make Aebir.
We're thinking kind of alike Dalor. I was kind of wondering if the "steelsky" left behind by Arambar might have something to do with Asgorath. However, I'm hesitant to say anything of the sort, because I think the whole Arambar thing has its own utility. Still, Asgorath/Asgoroth wasn't the only primordial released by the Batrachi. Maybe Arambar was another. We have no real clue what all happened at that time. We do know the primordials were allied with the dragons though (or rather using them as servants). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 03:13:45
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I've ran a few one-shot campaigns featuring a [plot-required] "flat-Discworld-styled" Toril. Only, instead of resting on the backs of four elephants who are, in turn, standing upon a giant turtle, my Flat-Realms exists as a "flying disc" of sorts -- hurtling back and forth, through the Realmspace Crystal Sphere, between Mystra and Shar. Which ever of the two deities has the Flat-Realms-Disc in hand, at any one time, enjoys an increased amount of power and influence in the world. After which, the influence of that particular deity wanes as the disc is then sent back into motion, until it's received by the other opposing deity.
It was a great deal of fun! |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 19:08:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Maybe Ao used Asgorath's body to make Aebir.
We're thinking kind of alike Dalor. I was kind of wondering if the "steelsky" left behind by Arambar might have something to do with Asgorath. However, I'm hesitant to say anything of the sort, because I think the whole Arambar thing has its own utility. Still, Asgorath/Asgoroth wasn't the only primordial released by the Batrachi. Maybe Arambar was another. We have no real clue what all happened at that time. We do know the primordials were allied with the dragons though (or rather using them as servants).
Would you be kind enough to reference this information. I read the origin of Abeir in the 4e campaign guide but I am not remembering this. Did you find it there?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 19:10:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, I recall seeing an ancient hand-drawn map of Toril, by Ed I think, which very roughly approximated the landmasses of his world ... including then-unnamed Maztica, Osse, and other far-flung continental masses.
We also have the Atlas of the Realms and FRIA, which both depict Toril as a globe and are likely canon - at least, if they‘re not truly canon they‘re the next best thing, since these sources have served as references for so many Realms authors.
I think ye olde Grey Box actually described day/night timezones in an indirect manner, certainly the Kara-Tur/Hordelands/Shou/Zakhara sourcebooks acknowledged this global phenomenon ... and Spelljammer lore categorically summarizes Toril as a spherical world.
I‘m going with round. Flat isn‘t impossible, but it‘s contraindicated by too many canon sources.
Yes, but all those resources would be NOW. I have no doubt that Toril is round now. I also have no doubt that there IS another flat world within Realmspace (the planet H'Catha and farthest from the sun is a flat water world with a mountain at its center). The statement in the lore was that the world WAS flat. In the same document, its talking about Asgorath "the worldshaper". So, way back long ago, say prior to the tearfall, the world may have been flat then, and I assume that the "worldshaper" reshaped the world. Of course, this all could be just nuance.... but it could easily explain some things, if you can get past the idea that a being actually had the ability to literally reshape continents.
Again Sleyvas can you reference this for me so I can look it up? Many THanks in advance!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 21:52:35
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| Another consideration: the draconic creation myth might involve metaphors which are readily understood by dragonkind yet translate poorly into human terms. Dragons are graceful, powerful, agile flyers - and relatively slow, ungainly, awkward when moving on a surface. They might naturally tend to view the world (and dragon-claimed territories) in terms of the skies, regarding the lands below (and any valuables they may contain) as a subset attached to the airspace, much like humans tend to naturally first see land areas and only secondly notice anything valuable buried underground. To long-lived dragon viewpoints the skies might seem fixed while the land beneath changes. Thus might draconic speech and thinking literally describe a flat world for flat-footed groundlings. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Mar 2014 22:01:41 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 23:27:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Maybe Ao used Asgorath's body to make Aebir.
We're thinking kind of alike Dalor. I was kind of wondering if the "steelsky" left behind by Arambar might have something to do with Asgorath. However, I'm hesitant to say anything of the sort, because I think the whole Arambar thing has its own utility. Still, Asgorath/Asgoroth wasn't the only primordial released by the Batrachi. Maybe Arambar was another. We have no real clue what all happened at that time. We do know the primordials were allied with the dragons though (or rather using them as servants).
Would you be kind enough to reference this information. I read the origin of Abeir in the 4e campaign guide but I am not remembering this. Did you find it there?
In Abeir, the sky’s pleasant blue is long forgotten. Instead,
a metallic-hued vault arches from horizon to horizon.
When violent weather approaches, the steelsky boils
into dark green and copper-hued clouds. Steelsky doesn’t
obscure sunlight, moonlight, or the stars.
The metallic sky is due to arambar, the residual energy
of an ancient primoridial. Arambar was a Dawn Titan
whose power was so vast that even in death, its memory
visibly persists across Returned Abeir. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 23:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Hmm, I recall seeing an ancient hand-drawn map of Toril, by Ed I think, which very roughly approximated the landmasses of his world ... including then-unnamed Maztica, Osse, and other far-flung continental masses.
We also have the Atlas of the Realms and FRIA, which both depict Toril as a globe and are likely canon - at least, if they‘re not truly canon they‘re the next best thing, since these sources have served as references for so many Realms authors.
I think ye olde Grey Box actually described day/night timezones in an indirect manner, certainly the Kara-Tur/Hordelands/Shou/Zakhara sourcebooks acknowledged this global phenomenon ... and Spelljammer lore categorically summarizes Toril as a spherical world.
I‘m going with round. Flat isn‘t impossible, but it‘s contraindicated by too many canon sources.
Yes, but all those resources would be NOW. I have no doubt that Toril is round now. I also have no doubt that there IS another flat world within Realmspace (the planet H'Catha and farthest from the sun is a flat water world with a mountain at its center). The statement in the lore was that the world WAS flat. In the same document, its talking about Asgorath "the worldshaper". So, way back long ago, say prior to the tearfall, the world may have been flat then, and I assume that the "worldshaper" reshaped the world. Of course, this all could be just nuance.... but it could easily explain some things, if you can get past the idea that a being actually had the ability to literally reshape continents.
Again Sleyvas can you reference this for me so I can look it up? Many THanks in advance!
Oh, the previous reference on steelsky was in 4e campaign guide (forgot to mention the reference material).
The reference to another flat world in realmspace comes from the "realmspace" supplement from 2e, pg 47, referencing the planet H'Catha.
"This planet, the farthest from the Sun, is a flat water world with a tall mountain in the center. The surprisingly clear water is 300 miles thick throughout the planet. The water's edge is tapered and shrouded in mist and fog, making it very dangerous to approach because the possibility of falling off the world is very high.
The water of this flat world constantly falls off the edge as well. When this happens, the water immediately turns to steam and collects at the world's edge and under the planet. This obscures the edge, making it impossible to see."
then more
"As H'Catha revolves around the Sun, it looks very much like a wagon when. The Spindle - the large central mountain - constantly points to the Sun, while the rest of the planet rolls along in its orbit. The planet also has two moons which circumnavigate the planet along the flat plane.
The Spindle is directly in the center of the planet. It is 200 miles thick at the base, but it tapers and thins to the very top, over 1,000 miles above the surface. The Spindle is the tallest mountain in the Realms' sphere."
Oh, and the reference to Toril being flat comes from the draconomicon, and I quoted it all at the start of the thread. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2014 : 23:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Another consideration: the draconic creation myth might involve metaphors which are readily understood by dragonkind yet translate poorly into human terms. Dragons are graceful, powerful, agile flyers - and relatively slow, ungainly, awkward when moving on a surface. They might naturally tend to view the world (and dragon-claimed territories) in terms of the skies, regarding the lands below (and any valuables they may contain) as a subset attached to the airspace, much like humans tend to naturally first see land areas and only secondly notice anything valuable buried underground. To long-lived dragon viewpoints the skies might seem fixed while the land beneath changes. Thus might draconic speech and thinking literally describe a flat world for flat-footed groundlings.
Yeah, but they say "when the world WAS flat". So, why would they declare a difference between then and now. I'm not hard stuck on it being to be this... but its one of those things where you can take two things that seem to make no sense and putting them together can actually start to make sense.... in this instance though, you have to accept that there was some primordial dragon who was actually able to reshape a huge landmass via magic (now whether he/she/it needed the aid of a bunch of other primordials, or it involved the batrachi unwittingly supplying some ritual magic power, or something else entirely). Main thing, POSSIBLY world got reshaped, causing tons of earthquakes, volcanos, wildfires, shifts in the oceans... and yes, an ice moon that was revolving around said world to either shift in its orbit OR follow its normal trajectory and collide with a land mass that wasn't there previously (then melts forming a flooding ocean in the area where the batrachi were located... the same batrachi that had just released a bunch of Primordials who were then going toe to toe with the gods and butchering them.. until the hidden one intervened <still not sure if the hidden one in that reference is Ao or Mystryl... I know after that explicitly Ao twins the worlds>).
"...The World was still flat, here before the beginning of Time, before Asgorath the World-Shaper folded the cloth of existence into its final form. The World was flat, and above it hung the Crystal Sun that Zotha had wrought before Asgorath cast him down. Asgorath soared above the World and looked down upon it, and she saw that it was good. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 13:13:29
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First many thanks to my reference request.
I read my Draconomicon last night, and I lost my Spelljammer set so I will have to buy that in PDF again. I was getting the feeling it was more allegorical.
However, in Spelljammer the gravity is planar, which would make sense to have Toril being initially flat. So the force of Gravity in the D&D universe changes when you go into space, and maybe all the planets initially start out as flat.
From Dragon we know Oerth is a globe. Oerth does exist in a SPELLJAMMER space "Oerthspace" lets say and not realm space.
So how did Oerth become a globe? Must something always form them into a globe first (YES I say as I think that the D&D Universe runs on a creation model not a science model.) I don't know if I can agree that all worlds start flat, or that Abeir-Toril started flat. I am inclined to beleive that this is a Draconian creation myth.
The Draconomicon also insists that Dragon's have only been around 10K years. I think there are lots of items of lore that contradict the Draconomicon. Were there not Chromatic Dragons during the time of the Sarrukh?
Anyway the world being Flat responding to Spelljammer gravity is plausible.
So your theory is that Abeir was ALWAYS flat, and Toril was reshaped into a globe?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 13:19:00
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What if we go back to what I said earlier?
That Abeir was 'The World' (and a flat plane) and Toril was 'shaped' from that.
Actually, it would have been Abeir-Toril initially, and after the 'Toril bits' were taken-out, Abeir was left - a much reduced, flat plane/world. So its not that the world was one way, and then another - it was that the flat, original plane was greatly reduced in size when Toril was made from it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Mar 2014 13:20:07 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 17:52:39
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| I like that idea MT. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2014 : 22:01:23
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I‘m apprehenisve about emphasizing select passages of the draconic myth without equally crediting the full context. Taken literally, this creating story is incompatible with the 3E and 4E creation myths which specify (round) Toril is was fashioned by Ao and his earliest-generation of Faerûnian deities.
The elves, too, have their own creation myth (and pantheon of deities to support it). So do (or did) the drow. And Giantkind. And, at least before that Many-Arrows nonsense, the orcs and goblinoids. Indeed, the human pantheons on Toril once coexisted in the world (sort of), yet each offered a unique (and typically exclusive) creation myth which denied the validity of all others. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2014 : 00:16:23
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What in the 3e and 4e creation myths specify Toril was round when it was first created? I'm looking at both sections, and I'm not spotting it?
As far as I know though, none of the other creation myths state that the world was either flat or round (or a cube... or a pyramid, etc...) in the beginning, except for the draconic myth stating that the world was flat. So, in essence, there is no contradiction here. Of the races that were around, they did notice that the stars changed their positions... which could be explained by the scenario given (granted, it could also be explained as Ao moved everything around... so its not like this is the only explanation).
FROM 3e campaign setting "creation of the world section"
The twin goddesses created the bodies of the heavens, giving life to Chauntea, the embodiment of the world Toril. Toril was lit by the cool radiance of the goddess Selune and darkened by the welcoming embrace of the goddess Shar, but no heat yet existed in this place. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Is Abeir Flat? Was Toril originally flat?
