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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2004 :  09:27:10  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message
Ah, yes, of course. It's the side blow horn. I guess once in a while something will be named rather innocuously.

You can find sample sounds here: each horn individually, and also a collection of them. Of course, if any of you happen to see part one of the DVD I mentioned on PBS, you'll find a much better performance in there. (Also with a wonderful mood setting -- outside a thatched hut, at night, next to a fire. I wish they'd let that part of the documentary run longer! )

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2004 :  11:42:02  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
Another one for Ed. Not begging for huge detail here, just a push in the right direction. The fact that the "-dahast" wizards have elven blood is well established by Ed, of course. Among the noble families of Cormyr, which ones would be most likely to have elven blood sneaking in somewhere along the way? Specific names of the "guilty" parties would be wonderful. I have a vague suspicion that Filfaeril herself may be harboring some Myth Drannan blood, but just a hunch, with no clear evidence to point to. Am I anywhere close, or is that the magical land of NDA that I hear calling?

Further: would it be a high priority to conceal that sort of "elven taint" from common knowledge in the kingdom? Could it be used in Cormyrean society to damage a noble family's status and thus be fodder for blackmail by anyone finding it out; or is it more of a status symbol (often falsely claimed, perhaps?) for a noble family to be able to claim elven blood from their great, great, great whomever on their father's side? The Cormyrean mindset seems to be a tad schizophrenic when it comes to the People: sometimes embracing them, sometimes fearing them. So I can't decide which way this sort of thing is most likely to play out.

What shenanigans would be likely to transpire if a half-elf showed up with a legit claim to Lordship of a noble family in the kingdom?

Thanks, Ed and THO both, for keeping the glorious Realmslore coming... ;)

-Karth

Edited by - Karth on 28 Oct 2004 11:46:52
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2004 :  15:28:15  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello, all.
I have an oops. When cut-and-pasting Ed’s e-mail to post here, I somehow dropped a sentence:


Slow court dances sound very much like “O Mistris Mine” as performed on the Dorian compilation disc ELIZABETH’S MUSIC.


Sorry.
Ahh, Karth, what a LOVELY Realmslore question. I’ll pass it on forthwith. Ed has a stress echo test (annual heart checkups) in Toronto today, and so will be ‘away’ from all computers (except the doctor’s :} ) most of the day, so expect an answer late tonight or tomorrow.
love to all,
THO
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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2004 :  17:17:42  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message

quote:
Ahh, Karth, what a LOVELY Realmslore question. I’ll pass it on forthwith. Ed has a stress echo test (annual heart checkups) in Toronto today, and so will be ‘away’ from all computers (except the doctor’s :} ) most of the day, so expect an answer late tonight or tomorrow.

Ahem! Such resounding approval... I shall try to restrain the puppy-like wagging of my imaginary tail, Dear Lady. ;)

*Regards the lady's unattended leash with an appraising glance, then shakes off the evil thought resolutely*

I have many abysmally stupid questions which fairly leap from my fingers at all hours, I assure you. I try valiantly to spare Ed and this thread in general from the groan-inducing idiocy lurking there. Speaking of the man himself: let us hope that he is returned from the tender mercies of those rotten qua... er, those "noble physicians" without undue folding, spindling or mutilation.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2004 :  17:26:11  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Karth

*Regards the lady's unattended leash with an appraising glance, then shakes off the evil thought resolutely*


Ahem. Her leash is most definitely not unattended. And I've got a swarm of angry Miniature Giant Space Hamsters here, to prevent any foul play.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2004 :  17:37:47  Show Profile  Visit Garen Thal's Homepage Send Garen Thal a Private Message
As regards the possibility of elven blood coursing through the veins of human Cormyrean nobles:

This is one of those "hands off" topics among the nobility, because Cormyr is a human nation, with human nobles, whose titles pass to human heirs. While it's okay to have elven blood in the family line "back in the beginning," for a non-human to claim a title in the present day would require that the claimant be the only legitimate heir to the title. The Crown and the family both have a say in who gains a family's title, and this decision includes not only legitimacy (a human noble marrying an elf would be a rather public occurance in Cormyr). Half-elves can be granted titles or marry into noble families, but the expectation is that their offspring will be human, not elven.

That said, in reality there's something of a dual nature to having elven blood. On the one hand, any suggestion that one's heritage is "less" than human is something of an offense to a noble. On the other, elven skill in music, craftsmanship, dancing or singing, or having a "fae look about you" is a compliment. It's alright to have elven blood in you, but you're supposed to be quiet about it. It is a contradictory view, to be certain, but for the most part, that's how Cormyrean's are with elves: they enjoy their cultural contributions, their beauty and their skill, but don't want elven nobles and lords because of the longevity (and consequently, the perceived power) elves enjoy. Once the elf-blood is diluted enough that it loses the possibility to create an elven noble (at least two generations removed) people tend not to talk about it at all, because nothing "bad" can come of it, and the "good" only reminds them of the disaster averted.

As for which families might have some elves in their lineage, it would be spoiling the fun to share that bit. I can say to look closely for references to the XXXXX, XXXXX and especially the XXXXX families in the future, in addition to the XXXXX. (Sorry, GDTNATA*)

*GDTNATA= Gentleman's "Don't Tell Nobody A Thing" Agreement. If I say too much, I will spoil all of Ed's fun in telling you himself.
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 28 Oct 2004 :  17:51:03  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message
Hi again Ed,

I'm still fielding questions from WOTC posters and this one got me thinking since it seems to be one of the topics that really isn't explored in Realmslore. :) If you can add more to this, that would be great!

Tempus665 wrote, "Unconsciously I have always treated religion in the Realms as kind of an adult thing. I never thought about how religion influenced the lives of Faerûnian children, and now I'm wondering how it does. Do the parents take their children to church/temple every once in a while, or don't they bother until they're are older? How about parents who worship evil deities, do they openly do so in front of their children? Do they take them along to watch minor or even major rituals?"

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2004 :  05:29:10  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Hello, all. Hearken, please, to the latest words of Ed:


Well, I survived my annual run on the treadmill and the ministrations of beautiful lady nurses and techs (and the T-shirt I doffed to let them clip on the heart monitor was my gamers’ “Resurrected” shirt, of course :}), so I’m here to answer some more Realmslore.
I echo the words of my beautiful Lady Hooded: please don’t think that because I leap to swiftly answer a current query that I’ve forgotten the older ones, okay?

kuje31, regarding children and religion, please tell Tempus665 and everyone else interested, thus:
As in our real world, how parents involve children in their worship varies, of course.
Remember, please, that the vast majority of Faerunian children have “work to do” (even if this “work” is being trained by elders) from a very early age. Only in communal (and such communities are often faith-based, like Goldenfields), wealthy (i.e. folk who can afford many servants, such as nobility, royalty, courtiers, and wannabe-noble wealthy merchants), and guild-related (apprenticeships, usually in cities) situations are the children “apart” from their parents.
So children sneak off to play, especially with other children, but their parents are usually nearby. Babes and infants hear their parents praying and performing simple (household) rituals, but the clergy of most faiths in Faerun (with exceptions, such as when a small child portrays the ‘innocent god’ or represents the virginal state in a ritual) don’t want to see children participating in elaborate temple rituals when they’re too young to understand fully (and therefore choose for themselves).
Chanting and praying without really knowing what one is doing and believing in it is just empty noise, not power for the deity.
Therefore, most churches have a ‘coming of age’ process of instruction, presentation to the priests or congregation, and oath-taking induction (sometimes with tests), and this is generally at or after puberty (or, upon the death of one or both parents, when a child is forced to act in a community as a full adult).
It’s very important that gamers not follow their real-world (usually monotheistic) thinking when considering Faerunian situations: the Realms is pantheistic, and “everyone knows” ALL the gods (at least of one’s own race) “really exist.” Unlike our real world, there’s no denying that the folk praying to another god next door aren’t just as correct as “we” are, because often “we” will also be praying to that other deity soon (if only for appeasement). The faith lies in believing this or that personal, dream-vision-induced, or priestly interpretation of the deity’s will or intentions or prohibitions, not in believing the god exists.
So young children often pray and participate, and more often watch and learn, their own beliefs deepening as they watch adults emotionally moved by venerations, divine manifestations, and life crises.
Where children ARE often involved in religion is hearing (over and over again) ‘tales of the gods,’ told by minstrels, village elders, parents, priests, peddlers, and so on—and noticing the different ways these stories are slanted by this teller and that. Such taletelling is universally encouraged (not this slanting or that version of a story, mind you, but the act of passing on the stories) as a way of educating the young about all of the gods—who governs what in daily life, why they are the way they are (or rather, various mortal rationalizations about why a god is angry or happy or beautiful or whatever), and how some gods befriended -- or came to hate and oppose -- others.

Karth, Garen Thal has given you such a complete, accurate, and superbly-worded reply that he’s left me almost nothing to say.
So, of course, I’ll find something. :}
As Garen’s answer intimated, darn near EVERY ‘oldblood’ noble family of Cormyr has (and quietly claims, without saying a thing: it’s just “understood”) elven blood, so no, it’s not a means of possible blackmail or loss of status. Moreover, NDAs forbid me from replying to your question about Filfaeril—other than to say, “MY, you’re a good guesser!” (Ahem.)
Ah, the tales I hope to have the opportunity to tell, some day.
As for a half-elf showing up to claim a noble title, ’tis like this:
1. If the family has already (apparently) ‘gone extinct’ some time ago, the title and lands left (after all debts are paid) revert to the Crown (who in recent reigns have shown no interest whatsoever in handing out such lands to neighbouring nobles hungry for more), so the claimant really faces the task of convincing the Court (read: Vangey until he retires, and Laspeera working with Alaphondar, Dowager Queen Filfaeril, Alusair, and various Highknights -- like Rhauligan -- after that) of his or her own legitimacy. Note that they’ll use magic to mind-ream (more covertly than the scenes in ELMINSTER’S DAUGHTER; it’ll probably be a day of hard questioning in the Palace, then a sumptuous meal and a luxurious apartment in the Palace for the claimant, and spells cast into the claimant’s sleeping mind), and will be inclined to simply dismiss claims more distant than direct (bastard or legitimate) offspring of the ‘main line’ lineage of the family (i.e. if an aunt of the heir sleeps around and gives birth, her offspring, or a descendant of that offspring, will have to really worm their way into the heart of a royal, or offer some valuable service to the Crown, or something of that sort for their claim to succeed). On the other hand, even if four generations have passed, the son of the eldest son of the eldest son of the long-lost brother of the heir of the day WOULD be recognized, because that’s ‘main line.’
2. If the claimant is trying to step into the lordship or become heir of a noble family that’s still very much in evidence, things get far more messy. The Court tends to try to step back and let the family members try to sort it out, and in most cases said family members use the claimant as a bargaining chip or weapon against each other. Other noble families (especially those feuding with the noble family of the claimant, or claiming to be creditors of a member of that family) may try to ‘use’ the claimant. Most such claimants meet with fatal “accidents” (food poisoning, or an unfortunate fall from the castle battlements, or hunting mishaps involving errant arrows), and the Court seldom does more than an “embarrassment investigation” (that is, War Wizard and Highknight questioning designed to achieve this: “We know you did it, you murderous noble scum, but we can’t really prove it, so we’re just going to make sure the whole kingdom knows what you’re really like; every success on entering into trade deals from now on”) into the affair unless the claimant somehow survives the murder attempt.
And you’re welcome for the Realmslore. I, too, hope to keep it coming your way for years, you and all the good scribes of Candlekeep. I don’t have time to do a proper job, and my Lady Hooded knew that quite well when she purringly persuaded me into this, but she’s made it possible. Ah, if only I could have a house full of such beautiful, intelligent, persuasive secretaries . . . (not that my wife would probably be all that pleased :}).

One more musical note (sorry, bad pun) for The Blind Ranger: although there aren’t really symphonies in the Realms, as we real-world folk know them, there ARE song-cycles: extended stories told by ballads being sung in a particular sequence. Most of these are ‘later inventions,’ concocted by a minstrel or bard stringing together their personal favourites (or tunes that they could perform well, and that were popular with paying audiences) into a story of sorts, and then knitting them together with altered lyrics, additional linking songs, and sometimes short spoken-word orations, into the tale of one hero’s life, or a romance (often between a male human and a female elf, and often doomed by the resistance of their families or communities), or the reign of a villainous king, or the saga of a fearsome dragon or other predatory monster (and its eventual defeat).

Capn Charlie. I like both of your minotaur isle ideas, and yes, I have always included a FEW intelligent, refined minotaurs, though most are brutish, barbarian-level “grunting beasts.” I’ve always treated lizard men the same way; most are tribal warriors with much cunning but not a whole lot of inspirational intellect (i.e. they can learn a new weapon, trap, or battlefield danger in a hurry in a fight with PCs, but don’t lead lives of complex culture), but a few are every bit as intelligent and accomplished as most humans. This usually means that they’re smart enough to keep isolated and largely hidden from humans. :}
In fact, my players will tell you that I always love to run individual monsters that differ in alignment or skills or abilities from the norm, just to keep PCs guessing. Hack an orc on sight, and you just slew a trusted agent of your king or priestly confessor or closest ally . . .
Ah, I’m bad.


So saith Ed. Not that I agree with him about being ‘bad.’ I’M the bad one around here!
love to all,
THO
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Baalster
Seeker

19 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2004 :  05:50:33  Show Profile  Visit Baalster's Homepage Send Baalster a Private Message
Ed, THO, fellow scribes,

Sitting here another 20 pages into the scroll just awestruck with the knowledge flying about, I've come up with another question that has puzzled me.

Knights of the North, those who were purged from the Citadel of the Raven, when the Zhents showed their true intentions, what's their story. I understand that they were from different Moonsea cities - the Zhent "allies" when they approached them proposing to fix up the citadel. There is preciously little known about those knights. They are described as a band of "adventurers with a deep hatred of all Zhents" in Ruins of Zhentil Keep.

THO, did your knights meet them ? Any story worth telling ? And Ed, what background story you can add to thise Northern freedomfighters ? Where are they really from, where are they based ? What are their true motives and are they working alone or with other groups in the area ?

Once again, happy to be here and to have this scroll available. If anyone like me, is found compulsively hitting the Refresh button, you know how much we appreciate the updates from our hooded lady. You and Ed have my thanks for hours of splendid reading.

Baalster

The North is indeed as they say in the Vilhon Reach - a land of "hard, brutal men in leather and furs who swing overhasty swords."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2004 :  05:55:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Chanting and praying without really knowing what one is doing and believing in it is just empty noise, not power for the deity.


And that's a factoid I wish more real-world people knew...

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Ah, if only I could have a house full of such beautiful, intelligent, persuasive secretaries . . . (not that my wife would probably be all that pleased :}).


Since you can't have that arrangement, can I?

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

In fact, my players will tell you that I always love to run individual monsters that differ in alignment or skills or abilities from the norm, just to keep PCs guessing. Hack an orc on sight, and you just slew a trusted agent of your king or priestly confessor or closest ally . . .
Ah, I’m bad.


Ooh, that is evil! I like!

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

So saith Ed. Not that I agree with him about being ‘bad.’ I’M the bad one around here!
love to all,
THO


And we love you for it, dear Lady Hooded One.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2004 :  15:46:49  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
Wooly Rupert: I'll see your space hamsters and raise you one Astral Dreadnought; though I have no idea what either one of us could possibly hope to get for winning dibs on the Lady's leash, beyond pleasing her inordinately with the mere fact that men are betting over her like a high-coin girl... ;)
quote:
Karth, Garen Thal has given you such a complete, accurate, and superbly-worded reply that he’s left me almost nothing to say.
So, of course, I’ll find something. :}

Well, Garen Thal pretty much just repeated every boilerplate fact that I already knew or assumed myself - not that I don't appreciate his taking the time to answer. It's always reassuring to know that you've come to the same conclusions as someone of admirable acumen. However, it was your inimitable details that I truly craved and now can gleefully scurry off with, chuckling wickedly all the way... ;)
quote:
Moreover, NDAs forbid me from replying to your question about Filfaeril—other than to say, “MY, you’re a good guesser!” (Ahem.)

The giveaways for me were:

Exhibit A: Her presence in "One Comes, Unheralded, to Zirta", circa 1967, among the leading lights of your just-born campaign; which pigeonholes her immediately as being far more important than her apparently secondary role as Azoun's wife.

Exhibit B: The revelation at the end of Elminster's Daughter. El has spent a fair amount of time in the company of lovely elven and half-elven lasses. One might fairly say that he has a predilection. The loudly unmentioned *mothers* of certain characters were left rather pointedly to the imagination.

Aye, I noticed...

You speak rather more loudly when you suddenly belt up than you do when you talk, Ed. ;)
quote:
And you’re welcome for the Realmslore. I, too, hope to keep it coming your way for years, you and all the good scribes of Candlekeep. I don’t have time to do a proper job, and my Lady Hooded knew that quite well when she purringly persuaded me into this, but she’s made it possible.

So... It seems we all owe her rather more than I initially thought for browbeating you into utter submission on the subject. You are hen-pecked, sir. But I feel certain that you would have it no other way... ;)
quote:
Ah, if only I could have a house full of such beautiful, intelligent, persuasive secretaries . . . (not that my wife would probably be all that pleased :}).

Roger that, Jubal. I'll get right on it as soon as I get my first million in the bank. It'd be worth it just for the priviledge of hearing you yell, "Front!"
quote:
So saith Ed. Not that I agree with him about being ‘bad.’ I’M the bad one around here!

Stipulated, Dear Lady. Thanks again...

-Karth
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Bruce Donohue
Learned Scribe

Canada
129 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2004 :  18:04:21  Show Profile  Send Bruce Donohue a Yahoo! Message Send Bruce Donohue a Private Message
Dear Lady Hooded One... while bad mmm not quite sure about that, I would equate you more to lustfully playful, mischevious, and incourageable to be much more prudent adjectives to describe you.

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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe

USA
418 Posts

Posted - 29 Oct 2004 :  22:52:45  Show Profile  Visit Capn Charlie's Homepage  Click to see Capn Charlie's MSN Messenger address  Send Capn Charlie a Yahoo! Message Send Capn Charlie a Private Message
Many thanks, ed, for your answer to my earlier question... But now it seems my players won't let me get away with not moving ahead with my minotaur ideas.

However, I do have a few questions about the realms from one of my players who has asked me to pass it on here.

quote:
Dark Wolf: Are their any rules for war in the realms similiar to our Geneva Convention? Are there any structured rules about how prisoners of war areto be treated, wounded enemy soldiers on the battlefield, and so on. What about spies?

About Lizardfolk, what would a lizardman warrior take as loot in a raid? From a village? From a city? On a battlefield?

In thay, What kinds of prices would slaves bring? Would they be treated like a commodity, such as gold, with a static value, or something more often haggled over, like a tapestry or silver statuette? What kinds of prices might various races and species bring? What about slaves(captured and enslaved, or bred and trained as slave) with "levels". Such as trained warriors, craftsmen, etc. Give me a glimpse into the slave Market at Bezantur, what might be on sale in a given day, and what prices might it fetch.



Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary

My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think.
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RevJest
Learned Scribe

USA
115 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  01:15:18  Show Profile  Visit RevJest's Homepage Send RevJest a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie

Dark Wolf: Are their any rules for war in the realms similiar to our Geneva Convention? Are there any structured rules about how prisoners of war areto be treated, wounded enemy soldiers on the battlefield, and so on. What about spies?


The faithful of Tempus have rules about the conduct of war. I don't know if it's mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons or what, but I'm sure I read something about it somewhere. Basically a ban against dishonorable behavior. Tempus makes a point of telling his faithful not to mess with faithful of Eldath, too. And says point blank that if you run around killing them, Tempus will punish you. I guess the Lord of Battles doesn't take kindly to bullying the weak and slaughter. That's more Garagos's line of work.

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter."
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Karth
Learned Scribe

USA
81 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  03:52:24  Show Profile  Visit Karth's Homepage  Send Karth an AOL message Send Karth a Private Message
A quick and direct one for Ed or THO:

Need to confirm which street in Suzail is Swordstars lane, where one can find the Society of Stalwart Adventurers. It isn't labelled on any map of Suzail that I can find in my records.

Here is the relevant passage from Volo's Guide, to refresh your memory:
quote:
Seek the lantern-flanked dragonstone
archway on Swordstars Lane. Nonmem-
bers are challenged at the door.

Thanks, folks...

-Karth
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  16:10:12  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One


It’s very important that gamers not follow their real-world (usually monotheistic) thinking when considering Faerunian situations: the Realms is pantheistic, and “everyone knows” ALL the gods (at least of one’s own race) “really exist.” Unlike our real world, there’s no denying that the folk praying to another god next door aren’t just as correct as “we” are ...



Without wanting to stir any kind of strife, or thump any kind of holy scripture, I, as a religious person, just wanted to go on record as saying that us religious folk don't walk around in eternal doubt about the existence of the Godhead. Most of us know and believe like a yuppie knows and believes in oatbran. If not, we would harldy be religious, which operates off the basic premise that, yes, god exists and busies itself with relating with him/her/them and getting to know him/her/them better and better. Not to say that every religious person has direct experience with the Godhead ... but then, most atheists have no direct knoweldge of the eixtence of the atom or the shape of the earth. We do however have faith, at least, in those who do.

If we constantly walked around in doubt of our faith and convictions we would be better classified as philosophers ... who will even undermine their own existence through their abstract ponderings mind you.

Also, while some few religions have adopted an imperial standard from the very imperial societies they evolved in (and even opposed), some of us feel there is no need to deny other people their right to beleive, or not believe, as their honest experience dictates. God is BIG. And God loves poetry and metaphor, i.e. variety, which is why religion is not, and should not be treated as, a science of thought in which all things can be divided, analyzed, conquored, and placed wholy under the control of human intention. In which everything is cut and dry, matter of fact. That is what the natural sciences are for. Thats why God (another native,preChristian Anglo-Teutonic word by the by) created science!

Anyway, I just felt it necessary to clarify that. End of sermon. Sorry for the interruption.

"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  16:44:58  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Points well taken, Beowulf.
I don't think Ed was taking a shot at folks who believe their god is the One, True, and so on.
I think Ed was 'getting at' gamers keeping in mind that multiple priesthoods of multiple gods (all of whom are known to be real to the general populace) means less "control" of religious instruction (or the daily behaviour of believers) by any particular priesthood (and so, a lot less time wasted on 'the devout of god X' arguing or fighting with 'the devout of god Y', regardless of how much individual priests may try to foment such strife), and everybody of Faerun being aware that their younglings have a LOT of information to digest and sort out.

THO

Edited by - The Hooded One on 30 Oct 2004 16:50:16
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  16:50:49  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

(I don't think Ed was taking a shot at folks who believe their god is the One, True, and so on.)



Well, if someone wants to take pot shots at folk who think everyone else is stupid/evil/misguided compared to them, who think that they alone have god in a bottle, well, fire at will.

I just heard on a couple of occassions the comment that real world religious folk don't really believe in their gods. And while I figured that was probably just poorly stated, I just felt, as a religious person, the need to "balance" things? To clarify the matter.

Anyway, as they say, no harm no foul!!

"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda

Edited by - Beowulf on 30 Oct 2004 16:58:22
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30283 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  18:31:21  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf

I just heard on a couple of occassions the comment that real world religious folk don't really believe in their gods. And while I figured that was probably just poorly stated, I just felt, as a religious person, the need to "balance" things? To clarify the matter.

Anyway, as they say, no harm no foul!!



I did not intend to imply that all real-world religious folk did not truly believe. But there are certainly some who make a great show of being religious, but then act in a manner not all at congruous with the stated dogma of their faith. Those are some of the folk I refer to.

Further, my comment was intended to include other, non-religious situations. Not to go too far astray, but I myself refused to say the Pledge of Allegiance for a few years, except on national holidays. The reason? I was in Jr. high, and I suddenly realized I'd been mouthing the words since first grade without any real concept of their meaning -- the meaning was never taught to us, just the Pledge itself. Further, looking at my classmates, I realized that many of them, too, were mouthing the words simply by rote, with no thought as to what they were really saying. I stood and said nothing, as a form of silent protest. (I have since discontinued my quiet protest.)

And that brings me to a Realms question. Many real-world nations have various pledges of allegiance, and national anthems, and such. Do many of the Realms nations have these things?

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Oct 2004 18:37:04
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe

USA
418 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  20:52:48  Show Profile  Visit Capn Charlie's Homepage  Click to see Capn Charlie's MSN Messenger address  Send Capn Charlie a Yahoo! Message Send Capn Charlie a Private Message
This was how I percieved her(and, indeed, their) comment, if for no other reason than I give Ed and THO more credit than to go around making unfounded accusations and reacting in a needlessly hostile manner.

I took the original statement as an admonition to those who have had no real life experience with polytheism(true polytheism) to try to wrap their noodle around exactly how it would affect a society on a fundemental level, and taking in to account the number of true polytheistic societies on earth... they were not out of lign, as most people might not have any real world experience with such a society.

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

Points well taken, Beowulf.
I don't think Ed was taking a shot at folks who believe their god is the One, True, and so on.
I think Ed was 'getting at' gamers keeping in mind that multiple priesthoods of multiple gods (all of whom are known to be real to the general populace) means less "control" of religious instruction (or the daily behaviour of believers) by any particular priesthood (and so, a lot less time wasted on 'the devout of god X' arguing or fighting with 'the devout of god Y', regardless of how much individual priests may try to foment such strife), and everybody of Faerun being aware that their younglings have a LOT of information to digest and sort out.

THO


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My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think.
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  21:35:24  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie

This was how I percieved her(and, indeed, their) comment, if for no other reason than I give Ed and THO more credit than to go around making unfounded accusations and reacting in a needlessly hostile manner.



If there was any hostility on my part be sure it was perceived and most certainly unintentional.

Unless of course, speaking for oneself and other known quantities on a matter is consider "hostile"?


"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe

USA
418 Posts

Posted - 30 Oct 2004 :  21:49:28  Show Profile  Visit Capn Charlie's Homepage  Click to see Capn Charlie's MSN Messenger address  Send Capn Charlie a Yahoo! Message Send Capn Charlie a Private Message
I never said you were acting in a hostile manner, Beowulf. I only said that I did not percieve them to be. Your posts seemed to be rather reactionary, and of a nature to suggest you were reacting to hostility, I was merely stating that i did not perceive them ot be acting in such a manner.

Of course all this does is to further derail the topic(in game attitude unclouded by out of game perception) by involving what, in my opinion, should have as little to do with anything in game as possible, in my opinion, being our RL beliefs.

Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary

My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2004 :  00:24:58  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message
Whoa, boys, no flexing muscles here. (Lady Hood seems to be easily distracted by such sights. )

I'd like to say to you both that you should close your eyes, count to ten, then another five, and then go re-read all the posts on this subject. If you're clear-headed and paying attention, you'll see that you've both misunderstood each other, Beowulf perhaps the most.

Beowulf, as I've said, I'm openly Catholic. I don't go hanging up crosses over every door or even have bumper stickers, but I make no secret about it. (In fact, if I were in political office, I'd probably be accused of being either a religious fanatic or a hypocrite.)

I say that so that you have some perspective on this: I saw nothing offensive in what Mr. Greenwood said. I suppose it was an easy mistake to do if, for instance, you're in a hurry or otherwise distracted, but what I read was a comparison between Realmsian and Real-World religions, not a comparison between polytheism/monotheism/atheism.

In other words, take my favorite example of a fool who thinks he knows everything: Jack Chick. He thinks that if you don't think like he thinks, you're a Godless pagan. He's so annoying that I shudder to think that we actually agree on some subjects. (I suppose that there are bound to be some, but I feel he sort of sullies my position by sharing it. Nothing I can do, though.) Now, Jack Chick would be the perfect example of someone who does not exist in the Realms; namely, that if you don't worship the way he worships, you're not worshiping anyone/thing. (Or, worse, worshiping evil by default, which is a highly debatable subject, and I wish I could speak to him face to face. He'd never listen to me anyway, and not just because I'm a "pagan" Catholic.)

Nowhere did Mr. Greenwood say religious folk walk around in eternal doubt about the existence of the Godhead. Rather, he was suggesting that you can't have people in the Realms walking around in eternal doubt about the existance of the other guy's god.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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Beowulf
Learned Scribe

Canada
322 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2004 :  01:54:18  Show Profile  Visit Beowulf's Homepage Send Beowulf a Private Message
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm


I say that so that you have some perspective on this: I saw nothing offensive in what Mr. Greenwood said. I suppose it was an easy mistake to do if, for instance, you're in a hurry or otherwise distracted, but what I read was a comparison between Realmsian and Real-World religions, not a comparison between polytheism/monotheism/atheism.




It might indeed be a good idea to go back and re-read the posts. When I am offended by someone rest assured, I don't *****foot around the issue.

I attempted, and apparently failed miserably, to state the matter delicately, precisely because I was not offended. Just concerned. There is a great difference.

I am however beginning to get offended. Apparently Ed and THO have let the matter rest. And having said my piece, without pointing my finger, presuming, or launching anypersonal attacks on anyone I would much prefer to do the same as well.


"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 31 Oct 2004 :  03:18:05  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message
Whew. Gentle, fellas, gentle. If flaring tempers awaken a desire to flail anyone, flail me. I * LIKE * it.
Ahem. Hello, all. I bring Ed of the Greenwood’s latest answer:

mauricio, I’m running into NDA trouble answering your questions, but let me try to be brief and thus ‘sneak through’ the minefield:
1. How many hours do students spend in class everyday?
It varies. For lower-level students, there’s usually some formal instruction in the midmorning, then time for dining, relaxing, and study (spell memorization) through the middle part of the day, and then casting practise and instruction in the late afternoon and early evening, and then the evening is for experimentation and study, as assigned. Higher-level students depart from this routine depending on what they’re doing and who’s teaching them (for instance, days on end might be devoted to spellcrafting and experimental castings).
2. Is each school of magic taught in separate classes or do they have some kind of "integrated" classes? Are there any other disciplines worth mentioning [except for the history of the Art which is mentioned in "Silver Marches" and "The North"]?
There are integrated classes in some minor disciplines: defenses (an approach to magic that combines wards, mythals, shieldings, detection, traps, double-spell locks, and deceptions), ‘building the will’ (learning how to concentrate despite mental weariness, physical discomfort, and distractions), and Weave Theory (trying to understand the interactions of natural energies harnessed by spells, and the implications of castings [for example, the “weakening the planar fabric” effect of opening too many portals near to each other, and how the presence of some spells cause others to decay, in mythals or just nearby]).
3. Is it possible for students to attend to workshops in the lines of "Ask [insert the name of a powerful mage here]"?
Yes and no. There are no formal workshops along such lines, but students can request private audiences with particular mages present at the school (or ask ‘masters’ [instructors] to “intercede” for them, introducing them to important mages who are visiting Silverymoon but not present at the College (most mages make a point of avoiding the College because they don’t want to face a barrage of student audiences; when such wizards do grant interviews (and note: these will almost always be conversations with perhaps light refreshments, NOT ‘how to’ spellcasting sessions), they tend to allow all interested students to come at once -- the only occasions upon which several students will end up meeting with an important mage together.
4. Is Vihuel still the Headmaster, as mentioned in "The North"?
No. Vihuel resigned his position to become High Master Emeritus, meaning ‘retired Headmaster still resident at the College as a researcher assisted by students.’ This sort of burn-out isn’t unusual, and there were cordial private voting moots among the faculty to choose a successor. The new Headmaster is the kindly, grand-voiced, whimsical and craggy-faced old man Avalann Phondras (LN hm W16), who prefers to be a friendly guide rather than an authoritarian. He’s old and isn’t expected to remain Head of the College for long before he, too, retires.
5. And finally... could you mention the names of a few teachers?
Interestingly, my notes tell me that there are two haughty male gold elves among the faculty, named [NDA] and [NDA], who are carrying on a long-running feud with a female moon elf of greater magical accomplishments who’s incredibly beautiful (so most of the students and a few of the faculty, too, are helplessly in love with her). Her name is Thaeluvae Aunglimmer, and she’s a CG ef W19 who loves to teach and rarely sets foot outside the College.
The faculty also includes two crotchety male human ex-adventurers (in looks and manner, think ‘Hoggle’ from the movie LABYRINTH) who teach novice students the basics in a worldly, gruff manner. They try to one-up each other with fanciful “Now, when *I* was an adventurer” boastings, and are Belloz (“Bell-OH-ss”) Flamdurn (NG hm W9) and Handur Skeldyn (LN hm W8).
There’s also “the Vulture” (though few dare call him that to his face), a master of illusions and battle-magic hight Lyland Blackrune, a tall, darkly handsome black-robed “I’m oh-so-important” type (LN hm W12) who loves acting mysterious when he’s not snapping orders and looking disapproving. He provides much of the daily discipline around the College, and tries to make both faculty and students scared of him. To his way of thinking, awed and frightened persons are respectful persons.

So saith Ed. You now know rather more than we Knights ever learned of the faculty: we got to deal with some frightening Auditor/Dementor types on the one occasion we tried to sneak inside!
love to all,
THO

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